PDA

View Full Version : Suggestion: DPS Tabulator



Maldini
06-27-2007, 01:10 PM
Forget about kill counts, we all know that they are better ways to show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests.


Therefore I suggest a DPS tabulator - i.e. a tabulation of all the damage that a character has done in a quest. I've seen them and used them in other games like WoW, etc. It's a more accurate representation of DPS.

You could even show average DPS per character.

Just something to think about, DEVS.

Another option would be to allow 3rd party mods in the game so that the players can develop this type of software. That way it would not take any developer time away from other important additions to the game.

Black_Knight
06-27-2007, 01:13 PM
I say forget stats of any kind, it drives away the teamwork and adds focus on individuals...

But if ever they add a DPS counter, well my Sorcerer is gonna rule...!!!

Later!

Maldini
06-27-2007, 01:17 PM
I say forget stats of any kind, it drives away the teamwork and adds focus on individuals...

But if ever they add a DPS counter, well my Sorcerer is gonna rule...!!!

Later!


If people are only focused on stats and not on teamwork, then you should not group with them. It's that simple.

That should have no bearing on quest stats.

jkm
06-27-2007, 01:33 PM
Personal report for each individual character

Melee Offense

Attacks
Hits
Critical Hits
Unconfirmed Critical Hits
Attacks for Zero Damage
Total Damage
Damage/Hit
Damage/Attack

Arcane Report
Spell Points Used
Spells Cast
Spells Landed
Total Damage
Damage/Spell
Damage/Spell Point

Character Damage Report
Times Attacked
Times Hit
Critical Hits
Unconfirmed Critical Hits
Total Damage
Damage/Hit
Damage/Attack

% of Damage Output
% of Hit Points Healed

add hjeeling stats in there too

flynnsane
06-27-2007, 01:56 PM
I wonder if logging and displaying these stats would adversely affect game performance. Might it increase lag?

Dunno. They already put it in the combat log, but putting it elsewhere may have some unintended technical consequences....

joracie
06-27-2007, 02:42 PM
They also would need to ad a healing calculator and a damage taken calculator. That way you know how hard you cleric is working and who the dead weight is that is wasting the clerics mana. Really I would like that.

katanaflame
06-27-2007, 02:56 PM
They also would need to ad a healing calculator and a damage taken calculator. That way you know how hard you cleric is working and who the dead weight is that is wasting the clerics mana. Really I would like that.


so you would not have a problem if you spent the most mana on the guy who gave out the most damage.

ie just a crule fact of this game the lower the ac the more damage they put out the higher the ac the less damage they dish out

JosephKell
06-27-2007, 03:18 PM
so you would not have a problem if you spent the most mana on the guy who gave out the most damage.

ie just a crule fact of this game the lower the ac the more damage they put out the higher the ac the less damage they dish outBut what if a person could deal 70% of the damage of the highest DPS character, but only took 10% of the damage the highest DPS character took?

I think DPS (the idea, not the actual meaning of Damage per Second) should be: Damage Dealt/Damage Taken (D/T for short)

Obviously, the higher D/T is, the better. But there are two ways to increase D/T:
1. Increase D.
2. Decrease T.

This is just like economics, if the D/T curve is relatively inelastic, then decreasing D to decrease T is good because T goes down a lot more than D does. But if D/T is elastic, then increasing D to increase T is going to be better.

HOWEVER. Most D/T comparisons focus on 1 vs 1 situations. If you are doing 1 vs Many, Defensive is much better because if the foes are identical, then lowering your attack by 5 to get +5 AC means that ALL attacks on you need a roll 5 higher to hit you, but your attacks on ONE foe need a roll 5 higher, so you reduce your damage by X but all the incoming damage by Many times Y. And as long as X is less than Many*Y, you did the right thing.

The chief argument for Defense being better DPS than Offense is survivability (if D does X% of damage that O does, but D survives 2 minutes while O survives 70 seconds, D had almost twice the time to deal damage).

Maldini
06-27-2007, 03:28 PM
We're not talking about efficiency. We're talking about pure DPS. You sacrifice a lot of defense when you go for max DPS and it should reflect that fact in damage taken.

No, I'm asking for pure DPS tabulator.

Conejo
06-27-2007, 03:39 PM
i think it should go the other way. instead of the individual kill count, just the team kill/break/disable/search/whatever count.

FlyinS
06-27-2007, 03:41 PM
I wonder if they could put a counter in to measure e-ego inflation?

artvan_delet
06-27-2007, 03:44 PM
DPS may be a handy tool, but what about vorpals, disruptors, banishers, etc. I'll take an improved critical, dual banishing rapiers, TWF fighter in many cases-like invaders normal. DPS isn't the end of the discussion.

Mercules
06-27-2007, 04:26 PM
Forget about kill counts, we all know that they are better ways to show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests.

Because DPS is the ONLY measure of value among a tank? The guy who stops swinging at the mob in his face to run back and take the two that agro'd on the caster is -obviously- less valuable than the tunnel visioned swing-aholic who lets them die. We should drop the guy who blocks a doorway or lures a caster around the corner instead of just charging and swinging as much as possible, he is making the quest less interesting for the Cleric in the group.

Do away with the stupid stats. There is no good measure for what a person contributes to a quest other than the subjective feelings of those they group with.

JosephKell
06-27-2007, 04:40 PM
Do away with the stupid stats. There is no good measure for what a person contributes to a quest other than the subjective feelings of those they group with.This got me thinking... Perhaps on Raids when the look token is given, each player should rank the other players in the party from 1 to X (where X is 1 less than the number of players). No one ranks themselves. Then the two players with the lowest scores get the look tokens.

People know who the contributors are and who the dead weight are.

-JK

Mastodon
06-27-2007, 05:12 PM
I have a simple program created by Itrainz that allows to determine DPS potentials. But there is one thing to remember about it, each mob you are attacking has differant AC, so not everyone will be hitting as often as say others hitting lesser AC mobs, so it would be difficult to determine how much damage a person is actually putting out.

I could kill 5000 kobolds in the time it takes to kill 100 blackguards, however the DPS number for each would not be the same due to the fact that AC number isn't factored into the equation.

Unless they figured out away to determine an easy way to add AC average into the calculation, a DPS calculator in game would be too sophisticated for the XP page.

Hence
06-27-2007, 05:46 PM
How would you factor in Con dmg weapons?
Or would the calculator know how many hitpoints are lost per con dmg; would it count the total hit points of a mob that was slain by pure con drain?

Bad idea, no reason to spend time on something like this.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 05:51 PM
I wonder if they could put a counter in to measure e-ego inflation?


We'll have a scale from 0 - 100 and call it the FlyinS Scale of Epeen size.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 05:52 PM
DPS may be a handy tool, but what about vorpals, disruptors, banishers, etc. I'll take an improved critical, dual banishing rapiers, TWF fighter in many cases-like invaders normal. DPS isn't the end of the discussion.


That's the point of the DPS tabulator. These things make Kill Counts skewed as far as DPS is concerned.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 05:53 PM
Because DPS is the ONLY measure of value among a tank? The guy who stops swinging at the mob in his face to run back and take the two that agro'd on the caster is -obviously- less valuable than the tunnel visioned swing-aholic who lets them die. We should drop the guy who blocks a doorway or lures a caster around the corner instead of just charging and swinging as much as possible, he is making the quest less interesting for the Cleric in the group.

Do away with the stupid stats. There is no good measure for what a person contributes to a quest other than the subjective feelings of those they group with.


What are you talking about? The person who run's back is still doing DPS when they swing at the mobs on the caster. It's still a good measure. And again, your team-makeup and personalities are independent of an objective measure like a DPS tabulator. There are ideal groups and non-ideal groups.

That is not part of the discussion here.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 05:55 PM
I have a simple program created by Itrainz that allows to determine DPS potentials. But there is one thing to remember about it, each mob you are attacking has differant AC, so not everyone will be hitting as often as say others hitting lesser AC mobs, so it would be difficult to determine how much damage a person is actually putting out.

I could kill 5000 kobolds in the time it takes to kill 100 blackguards, however the DPS number for each would not be the same due to the fact that AC number isn't factored into the equation.

Unless they figured out away to determine an easy way to add AC average into the calculation, a DPS calculator in game would be too sophisticated for the XP page.

Damage is easy to measure. It's just a total of the all the red numbers that pop up. The thing about your above scenario is that you won't see 5000 kobolds in the same quest that you're seing 100 blackguards. The quests are balanced, and the person who is fighting the blackguards should be the ones who can actually hit them. That's just common sense.

No AC average should be taken into account. If you can't hit a mob, then get buffed up or turn off your combat stances.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 05:59 PM
How would you factor in Con dmg weapons?
Or would the calculator know how many hitpoints are lost per con dmg; would it count the total hit points of a mob that was slain by pure con drain?

Bad idea, no reason to spend time on something like this.

You wouldn't because you're not really doing damage. You're debuffing something, that's that direct damage. However if you did damage with your weapon before the con reducing effects set in, then you count those.

Bad idea? I don't think so. If they can spend time on a social panel, then they can spend time on this. It's not an extensive thing to come up with. It's a totalizer per quest. There's no real graphical update, it's pure programming.

Instead of bashing other people's ideas, you should stop trolling the thread meant for devs and focus on your own ideas.

GeneralDiomedes
06-27-2007, 06:02 PM
How would you factor in Con dmg weapons?
Or would the calculator know how many hitpoints are lost per con dmg; would it count the total hit points of a mob that was slain by pure con drain?

Bad idea, no reason to spend time on something like this.

I suppose that's why you would need a multitude of stats from which you can draw your own conclusions. Obviously kills would still have to be a part of it, and probably hits as well, then the tank can't just say 'well you obviously just stole all of those kills from me at the last second'.

Mercules
06-27-2007, 06:05 PM
What are you talking about? The person who run's back is still doing DPS when they swing at the mobs on the caster. It's still a good measure. And again, your team-makeup and personalities are independent of an objective measure like a DPS tabulator. There are ideal groups and non-ideal groups.

That is not part of the discussion here.

Yes, WHEN the tank is swinging at the mobs they are doing DPS. While moving away from the group of 10 mobs to clean up the two mobs beating on the caster and then moving back to the group of now 3 mobs they are loosing DPS. Thus, this is a bad measure of who is helping the team out. This is NOT an objective measure.

Tank A decides to be kind to his Cleric teammate and carry a shield, use a defensive stance, taunt/trip/stunning blow mobs, blocks doorways, uses a paralyzer for CC, and otherwise be an AC tank.

Tank B looks at the DPS stats and decides that he wants to be at the top of it every time. He uses a two-hander, says screw the paralyzer I'll use greater bane weapons, always rushes right into the heart of the mobs so they get flanking bonuses and hit him nearly all the time(but then he gets glancing blows on all of them so more DPS), doesn't bother to "run back" for a loose mob as there are 4 more ahead and those are more "worth it" and thus the caster gains agro and dies.

Who is a more effective melee player? Who is the better team member to have around?

THAT is what I am saying. DPS, kill count, and nearly every other "objective" measure is not really objective. There are too many way players can skew the results and in many cases trying to get higher in the measure can be a detriment to your character and others.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 06:10 PM
Yes, WHEN the tank is swinging at the mobs they are doing DPS. While moving away from the group of 10 mobs to clean up the two mobs beating on the caster and then moving back to the group of now 3 mobs they are loosing DPS. Thus, this is a bad measure of who is helping the team out. This is NOT an objective measure.

Tank A decides to be kind to his Cleric teammate and carry a shield, use a defensive stance, taunt/trip/stunning blow, mobs, blocks doorways, uses a paralyzer for CC, and otherwise be an AC tank.

Tank B looks at the DPS stats and decides that he wants to be at the top of it every time. He uses a two-hander, says screw the paralyzer I'll use greater bane weapons, always rushes right into the heart of the mobs so they get flanking bonuses and hit him nearly all the time(but then he gets glancing blows on all of them so more DPS), doesn't bother to "run back" for a loose mob as there are 4 more ahead and those are more "worth it" and thus the caster gains agro and dies.

Who is a more effective melee player? Who is the better team member to have around.

THAT is what I am saying. DPS, kill count, and nearly every other "objective" measure is not really objective. There are too many way players can skew the results and in many cases trying to get higher in the measure can be a detriment to your character and others.

You're talking about random group makeup and situations. You don't design things around such randomness.

Again, it's an objective measure used to show accurate DPS for each group member. Whether your team dynamics are perfect or leave more to be desired is not the problem here.

And yes it is objective. Kill counts are not accurate because insta-kill weapons and spells skew the numbers. DPS shows damage done. Whether you decide to stand there and try to kill everything in site or you're more worried about the caster in the back getting aggro is your own problem.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 06:11 PM
I suppose that's why you would need a multitude of stats from which you can draw your own conclusions. Obviously kills would still have to be a part of it, and probably hits as well, then the tank can't just say 'well you obviously just stole all of those kills from me at the last second'.


Yeah, that's the point of this. Someone can say, hey I got 150 kills! Then the barbarian can say, "Yeah but I did 10,526 points of damage you and did 1,439 points."

Hence
06-27-2007, 06:11 PM
Excuse me for offering an opinion different than yours... but I pay for this game to. If you don't want people to comment on your ideas, maybe you should PM the devs instead of posting here?

This is a dumb idea and wastes valuable time the Devs could be using to bring out more content, spells, bug fixes, ect.

Quit wasting the devs and our time with this nonsense.

Alavatar
06-27-2007, 06:13 PM
That's the point of the DPS tabulator. These things make Kill Counts skewed as far as DPS is concerned.

No offense, but this makes me think that you are jealous of vorpal/banisher/disruptor/wounders/etc. Technically, if someone is one-hit killing a mob a person should get all of the monster's remaining HP attributed to them for DPS. So, a caster who is FoD would always be at the top, much to your chagrin.

Vhlad
06-27-2007, 06:14 PM
But what if a person could deal 70% of the damage of the highest DPS character, but only took 10% of the damage the highest DPS character took?

Due to the way mobs choose targets, looking at the amount of damage the highest DPS character took and comparing it to the amount of damage another character took would not really be an accurate portrayal of damage/survival efficiency. Highest DPS character holds aggro. Therefore most mobs attack him.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 06:17 PM
No offense, but this makes me think that you are jealous of vorpal/banisher/disruptor/wounders/etc. Technically, if someone is one-hit killing a mob a person should get all of the monster's remaining HP attributed to them for DPS. So, a caster who is FoD would always be at the top, much to your chagrin.


Not really. I've used them. I'm old fashioned in the sense that I don't like to rely on the hope that a mob is going to fail a save or I'll roll a 20. I like to bring them down with pure DPS, something that will never fail.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 06:18 PM
Excuse me for offering an opinion different than yours... but I pay for this game to. If you don't want people to comment on your ideas, maybe you should PM the devs instead of posting here?

This is a dumb idea and wastes valuable time the Devs could be using to bring out more content, spells, bug fixes, ect.

Quit wasting the devs and our time with this nonsense.

Quit wasting my time by posting in this thread.

To think that this would soak up a lot of dev time is naive on your part.

And devs don't respond to PM's for the most part.

Mercules
06-27-2007, 06:23 PM
You're talking about random group makeup and situations. You don't design things around such randomness.

Again, it's an objective measure used to show accurate DPS for each group member. Whether your team dynamics are perfect or leave more to be desired is not the problem here.

And yes it is objective. Kill counts are not accurate because insta-kill weapons and spells skew the numbers. DPS shows damage done. Whether you decide to stand there and try to kill everything in site or you're more worried about the caster in the back getting aggro is your own problem.

No... it is NOT objective. A member of a party contributes more to that party than number of damage points per second, even a melee focussed character. The Paladin that pauses to wand heal himself or others looses DPS but could still be a fantastic "tank".

This stat, like Kill Counts tells you NOTHING about the player or what they contribute. If two people stood in one spot and hit the same type of mob over and over again for a period of time then DPS would be a measure, but only a measure of DPS under that situation.

Again... one person "escorts" a squishy back to a shrine or waits till everyone is rested even if he isn't while another zergs ahead to keep his DPS up. How does this objectively measure worth to the party?



Yeah, that's the point of this. Someone can say, hey I got 150 kills! Then the barbarian can say, "Yeah but I did 10,526 points of damage you and did 1,439 points."

And? So what? This measures what? The fighter who had to idle for 2 minutes to deal with some real life issue? The person who entered into the quest 2 minutes ahead of the rest of the party and started beating on a regenerating troll to "pad" his DPS count?

It's stupid to point at statistics that are subjective because of all those variables that can be included and say you are better than anyone. In the end who really cares but the people with such low self esteem that they need some imaginary stat they achieved to boost them above others so they don't feel so miserable about themselves?

Mercules
06-27-2007, 06:24 PM
Not really. I've used them. I'm old fashioned in the sense that I don't like to rely on the hope that a mob is going to fail a save or I'll roll a 20. I like to bring them down with pure DPS, something that will never fail.

Sure it will, it's called a Heal spell. :p Mob casters have unlimited SPs. DPS is not as assured as you think.

Alavatar
06-27-2007, 06:26 PM
No... it is NOT objective. A member of a party contributes more to that party than number of damage points per second, even a melee focussed character. The Paladin that pauses to wand heal himself or others looses DPS but could still be a fantastic "tank".

This stat, like Kill Counts tells you NOTHING about the player or what they contribute. If two people stood in one spot and hit the same type of mob over and over again for a period of time then DPS would be a measure, but only a measure of DPS under that situation.

Again... one person "escorts" a squishy back to a shrine or waits till everyone is rested even if he isn't while another zergs ahead to keep his DPS up. How does this objectively measure worth to the party?




And? So what? This measures what? The fighter who had to idle for 2 minutes to deal with some real life issue? The person who entered into the quest 2 minutes ahead of the rest of the party and started beating on a regenerating troll to "pad" his DPS count?

It's stupid to point at statistics that are subjective because of all those variables that can be included and say you are better than anyone. In the end who really cares but the people with such low self esteem that they need some imaginary stat they achieved to boost them above others so they don't feel so miserable about themselves?

QFT

GeneralDiomedes
06-27-2007, 06:41 PM
Sure it will, it's called a Heal spell. :p Mob casters have unlimited SPs. DPS is not as assured as you think.

Last time I checked Heal had a cooldown. If your DPS is high enough to kill the mob between casts, he is yours.

And for Red names that cast Heal on themselves such as the cleric in Crucible or Hazadill .. DPS is the only way.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 06:50 PM
Sure it will, it's called a Heal spell. :p Mob casters have unlimited SPs. DPS is not as assured as you think.


Actually when your DPS is in the upper range, like a pure barb's, the Heal spell won't even help mobs. Just ask Hazadil after my last run-in with him.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 06:51 PM
Last time I checked Heal had a cooldown. If your DPS is high enough to kill the mob between casts, he is yours.

And for Red names that cast Heal on themselves such as the cleric in Crucible or Hazadill .. DPS is the only way.


Well technically you could throw in Heal Scrolls in during the cooldowns of the actual spell from your list.

GeneralDiomedes
06-27-2007, 06:53 PM
Well technically you could throw in Heal Scrolls in during the cooldowns of the actual spell from your list.

Mobs with scrolls .. hmm .. maybe the Devs shouldn't be reading this :eek:

Karos
06-27-2007, 07:01 PM
I'd be satified if I could just simply log everything to a text file and parse that for my own uses. I could care less if its shown in quest screens. This would be totally on the clients end and therefore would have no performance hit on the servers, and would have more uses than just pure dps parsing.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 07:04 PM
No... it is NOT objective. A member of a party contributes more to that party than number of damage points per second, even a melee focussed character. The Paladin that pauses to wand heal himself or others looses DPS but could still be a fantastic "tank".


Yes it is objective because it's an observation of the damage done. I'm not sure you know the difference between subjective and objective. Subjective would be, "Yeah he did a lot of damage, but Player Z was more beneficial to the group because he did A, B, and C. Objective would be, "Player Y did X points of damage of Quest 1 and Player Z did X points of damage. Therefore Player Y did more damage than Player Z."

You're comparing apples to oranges here.



This stat, like Kill Counts tells you NOTHING about the player or what they contribute. If two people stood in one spot and hit the same type of mob over and over again for a period of time then DPS would be a measure, but only a measure of DPS under that situation.


Again, we're not comparing a person's usefulness, we're comparing DPS. I've taken many, many statistical classes, and there's one thing that stands out above all others, and that is that stats are nothing without the person that interprets the data.

The stats will provide the objective data, and it's up to the person to use those stats to really see who did what in a quest.



Again... one person "escorts" a squishy back to a shrine or waits till everyone is rested even if he isn't while another zergs ahead to keep his DPS up. How does this objectively measure worth to the party?


Because it shows what everyone else did in the quest while that person was escorting that player. There's more than one way to skin a cat. That person can escort that player or just pick up his stone and carry him along until the party as a whole rests. The person chose to take that player back to the shrine and hence do less damage output on the quest.

That has nothing to do with a DPS calculator. If you want, I can suggest a touchy-feely DPS tabulator, that takes into account X^Z variables in tabulations of usefulness, but don't expect it anytime this century.



And? So what? This measures what? The fighter who had to idle for 2 minutes to deal with some real life issue? The person who entered into the quest 2 minutes ahead of the rest of the party and started beating on a regenerating troll to "pad" his DPS count?


You're arguing worthless points in this thread. Who cares if the person pads his counts? A person can do that now with the kill count system. If the person was in 15 minutes early, but at the end of the quest he's really not that far ahead of the person who came after, well that says something about the actual DPS that the earlier player puts out.

The only benefit to someone going in early to a quest would be to finish early and that would benefit everyone. These types of stats don't boost a player's character or give them bonuses. Therefore these types are arguments aren't useful for this suggestion.




It's stupid to point at statistics that are subjective because of all those variables that can be included and say you are better than anyone. In the end who really cares but the people with such low self esteem that they need some imaginary stat they achieved to boost them above others so they don't feel so miserable about themselves?

Right...because people don't do that already? Using the kill count system that has been in the game since Beta?

And you're making this out into a ridiculous psychoanalytic argument, when in reality this suggestion was for a supplement to the current DPS calculation system in the game. You're looking way to far into things. And again, the tabulator is objective. You have your definitions mixed up.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 07:05 PM
I'd be satified if I could just simply log everything to a text file and parse that for my own uses. I could care less if its shown in quest screens. This would be totally on the clients end and therefore would have no performance hit on the servers, and would have more uses than just pure dps parsing.


The better way to do this would be for Turbine to allow 3rd party mods to be used in their game. Then you take the work away from the devs and in the hands of the players. That's how it's done in other games and it works quite well.

Karos
06-27-2007, 07:07 PM
The better way to do this would be for Turbine to allow 3rd party mods to be used in their game. Then you take the work away from the devs and in the hands of the players. That's how it's done in other games and it works quite well.

The problem with those mods is unless it is dealing with your damage alone and ignores everyone elses, it takes up server processing time/bandwidth/memory. From what I can tell most servers are pretty bogged down as it is, I'd hate to use more of that on something you can do yourself through parsing a log file.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 07:07 PM
Mobs with scrolls .. hmm .. maybe the Devs shouldn't be reading this :eek:


Heh, oops. I started reading the threads from bottom up and yours was the first one that I read. I thought you were talking about player characters.

Alavatar
06-27-2007, 07:10 PM
Forget about kill counts, we all know that they are better ways to show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests.



Again, we're not comparing a person's usefulness, we're comparing DPS.

I fail to see how "show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work" is "not comparing a person's usefulness". Please elaborate. And please leave out useless information like "I have taken many classes".

Maldini
06-27-2007, 07:13 PM
The problem with those mods is unless it is dealing with your damage alone and ignores everyone elses, it takes up server processing time/bandwidth/memory. From what I can tell most servers are pretty bogged down as it is, I'd hate to use more of that on something you can do yourself through parsing a log file.


True, but they are adding new hardware, and it doesn't seem to bog down WoW or other games. So I'm not sure it even has a serious effect on their end.

Maldini
06-27-2007, 07:16 PM
I fail to see how "show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work" is "not comparing a person's usefulness". Please elaborate. And please leave out useless information like "I have taken many classes".


If you read the post that that quote came from you'd understand. If you take snippets from a post, you have to put it in the context of the post.

Usefulness was in regards to someone taking care of the party versus taking care of the quest objectives. That is, a melee stopping to use their Ring of the Ancestors or going back to a previous rest shrine with someone's stone versus someone just running mob to mob and killing everything.

Alavatar
06-27-2007, 07:35 PM
Maldini,

1) You offer your idea as "something to think about", leaving one to believe that you think it's cool, but not that important. And when others post that they don't like your idea you defend it to the teeth.

2) Out of the past 45 posts you have posted 18 times defending your idea.
1 person likes your idea
3 people would like to expand on your idea
6 people don't like your idea
3 people would like killing and damaging statistics removed
2 people would like to be able to log the data for personal parsing

And one person posted but didn't offer anything useful.

What do these statistics tell you? You could interpret it as the majority of people posting in this thread don't like the idea (37.5%). Or you could say that a threshold number of 25% interest in the topic has been met. Or a multitude of other things.

Your initial argument was that DPS would be used to determine what tanks would be "useful" based upon nothing but damage and not counting vorpals, banishers, disruptors, etc. Your initial argument has since been amended to include subjective interpretation of the data, even though you know it will just make things worse for PUGs due to e-peen players that just want to be "the best" and equate DPS to being "the best". Like it or not, there are lots of PUGs in this game and lots of idiots. While Kill Count is largely ignored by most people, DPS Tabulator would not be.

3) Your argument about it's feasibility is "WoW does it, so DDO should to". That doesn't fly with a lot of people. Just because one MMO does it does not automatically make it so another should. "WoW does it" is not a valid reason for it's inclusion.

Edit: The only reasons why I see you making such an effort is you either don't like or can't handle critism, you want to see how much damage your barbarian does, or people keep 'kill stealing' your kills and you want to say, "I did more damage, so there!"

Maldini
06-27-2007, 07:51 PM
Maldini,

1) You offer your idea as "something to think about", leaving one to believe that you think it's cool, but not that important. And when others post that they don't like your idea you defend it to the teeth.

2) Out of the past 45 posts you have posted 18 times defending your idea.
1 person likes your idea
3 people would like to expand on your idea
6 people don't like your idea
3 people would like killing and damaging statistics removed
2 people would like to be able to log the data for personal parsing

And one person posted but didn't offer anything useful.

What do these statistics tell you? You could interpret it as the majority of people posting in this thread don't like the idea (37.5%). Or you could say that a threshold number of 25% interest in the topic has been met. Or a multitude of other things.

Your initial argument was that DPS would be used to determine what tanks would be "useful" based upon nothing but damage and not counting vorpals, banishers, disruptors, etc. Your initial argument has since been amended to include subjective interpretation of the data, even though you know it will just make things worse for PUGs due to e-peen players that just want to be "the best" and equate DPS to being "the best". Like it or not, there are lots of PUGs in this game and lots of idiots. While Kill Count is largely ignored by most people, DPS Tabulator would not be.

3) Your argument about it's feasibility is "WoW does it, so DDO should to". That doesn't fly with a lot of people. Just because one MMO does it does not automatically make it so another should. "WoW does it" is not a valid reason for it's inclusion.

Edit: The only reasons why I see you making such an effort is you either don't like or can't handle critism, you want to see how much damage your barbarian does, or people keep 'kill stealing' your kills and you want to say, "I did more damage, so there!"


The stats tell me that it's a low sample size, therefore the results are skewed. The people that troll this forum are people who are beligerent to a lot of ideas and mostly respond with "this is waste of dev time".

I enjoy criticism because I like discussions. If people can't handle my retorts, well I don't know what to say to that. The one thing I don't enjoy is when someone chimes in with negativity. When you've posted as much as I do on these forums and as long as I have, you learn to expect certain posts when you make suggestions.

I honestly don't care if someone gets the last hit on a mob. All the power to them. I know the red numbers that jump when I swing an axe. This suggestion was after about a year of bringing up this point with people in game and out of game.

And yes it doesn't matter what WoW does. The point was that it is something that is very useful and works well in other scenarios. For instance a few days after the game launched I made a suggestion about putting in character respecs. Many, many people argued against it, but the fact remained that the majority of people in the game wanted one even if they didn't voice their opinion on the forums. A few mods later, and presto! we have respecs. Respecs work well and most MMORPG's use them because the environment changes constantly.

My original point was that if you are putting in kill counts, what's the point? Are there more meaningful ways to represent DPS which is what their original intention was with the kill count? Yes there are. Here is one of them.

You're reading too much into my posts. Don't try to analyze what I write because you can't infer tone or intention or facial expression via a discussion board. I do not suffer from an inferiority complex. I do not have low self-esteem. I'm a realist and a pragmatist.

I never said anything about tanks as well. A tank is not a barbarian, unless he is specced to tank. Do you know what a tank is? I wrote a nice guide about tanking in the guide section. You should read it sometime. Also, insta-kill weapons are taken into account in the kill count tabulator. The DPS tabulator would be a supplement to put more meaning behind those kill numbers.

Alavatar
06-27-2007, 08:13 PM
Since you don't like it when I pick only one or two things from a post...


The stats tell me that it's a low sample size, therefore the results are skewed. The people that troll this forum are people who are beligerent to a lot of ideas and mostly respond with "this is waste of dev time".

I enjoy criticism because I like discussions. If people can't handle my retorts, well I don't know what to say to that. The one thing I don't enjoy is when someone chimes in with negativity. When you've posted as much as I do on these forums and as long as I have, you learn to expect certain posts when you make suggestions.

Fair enough. I could debate this, but I think it would just end up being nothing but repeating arguments that neither wants to concede.


I honestly don't care if someone gets the last hit on a mob. All the power to them. I know the red numbers that jump when I swing an axe. This suggestion was after about a year of bringing up this point with people in game and out of game.

It is a simple thing to say that. In the time I have played I have never heard someone say, "I wish I had a DPS parser" but I have heard "I wish Kill Count was removed." Also, do you agree that people of like mind tend to assemble? So, the people that you play with regularly are probably of like mind to you and find specific things important, such as DPS. So, by talking to your friends/guildmates you have come to the conclusion that a large quantity of people want this feature? Large quantity does not necessarily mean either majority or threshold (I know you didn't say either) and I would say that your sample is biased. And that you get a less biased review on the Forums even though there are people that shoot down ideas. (Or should I say because people shoot down ideas?)

By the way, I only saw one or two people not like the idea of implementing Mystic Theurge.


And yes it doesn't matter what WoW does. The point was that it is something that is very useful and works well in other scenarios. For instance a few days after the game launched I made a suggestion about putting in character respecs. Many, many people argued against it, but the fact remained that the majority of people in the game wanted one even if they didn't voice their opinion on the forums. A few mods later, and presto! we have respecs. Respecs work well and most MMORPG's use them because the environment changes constantly.

Respecs were inevitable. Anyone arguing against that was just delusional.


My original point was that if you are putting in kill counts, what's the point? Are there more meaningful ways to represent DPS which is what their original intention was with the kill count? Yes there are. Here is one of them.

I never said anything about tanks as well. A tank is not a barbarian, unless he is specced to tank. Do you know what a tank is? I wrote a nice guide about tanking in the guide section. You should read it sometime. Also, insta-kill weapons are taken into account in the kill count tabulator. The DPS tabulator would be a supplement to put more meaning behind those kill numbers.

Forgive me for reformatting your post. These two paragraphs go together, so I don't want to seperate them. And I apologize for saying, 'tank'. Yes, I know what a tank is, and yes you said 'melee' and not 'tank'.

Now, in your argument here:


Yeah, that's the point of this. Someone can say, hey I got 150 kills! Then the barbarian can say, "Yeah but I did 10,526 points of damage you and did 1,439 points."

It sounds like you, or whoever you talk to, want to say to the vorpal, smiter, banisher, dirsuptor, con damage people "I did more damage!" when they say "I got more kills!", even though this prior quote was in agreement with its quote. DPS Tabulation and Kill Count Tabulation is viewed by many (not necessarily the majority) as chest thumping.


You're reading too much into my posts. Don't try to analyze what I write because you can't infer tone or intention or facial expression via a discussion board. I do not suffer from an inferiority complex. I do not have low self-esteem. I'm a realist and a pragmatist.

I am reading the surface attempting to understand the 'Why?'. Why do we need any sort of tabulation? To be able to sift through the useful people and the non-useful? Even though use is not necessarily weighed by DPS or Kill Count? (Examples, the paladin that wand wips in battle or the tank that escorts someone to the shrine)

Vhlad
06-28-2007, 01:34 AM
We have a kill count.
Assuming we are keeping a kill count, I see no good reason to not supplement that with a damage count. It is very very easy to program a rough damage counter in-game, and I personally believe that supplying the playerbase with more information is almost always better than withholding or neglecting to supply said information.

Outside of game, someone could probably write a text reading script to add up numbers from the combat log while running DDO in window mode (using key word and punctuation identifiers before and after numbers to ensure the right ones are added). Simple text readers (from image files) are already available (for example, to automate the entry of colored/angle shifted registration text for creating spam accounts). Although the DDO combat log is moving rather fast. You'd have to have one script dump it to a text file, and then an even simpler script to pull numbers out. It would be much more useful to have one in-game though.

EDIT:
I wouldn't even bother relating the damage to time. Monster hp is more finite (they do self-heal, which scews things a little). However, time can extremely variable. Kill count is not currently related to time either. It is more meaningful, from a uniform comparison standpoint, to have a total damage count irrespective of time. So no, not a DPS calculator. Just a total damage line, that can sit immediately above or below the kill count line.

All this moaning against a total damage count doesn't address the fact that we have a kill count already. Again, if we are keeping a kill count, it is better to have a damage count included as well. Furthermore, it's just as useful to certain wizard, ranger, and cleric builds as it is to melee. Melee attacks are rapid, and they may just be getting that last hit in more frequently, whereas wizard/cleric nuking is much slower (but much more damaging). That 1 scorching ray could bring a monster down to 10hp, and then the melee just breaths on it for the kill (or, in the reverse case, a spell could deal 1500 damage on a monster with 20 hp left). With respect to insta kill weapons/spells, that's why it is good to keep the kill counter.

LogannX
06-28-2007, 02:11 AM
If you think kill counts make people turn psychotic running figure 8's mashing attack and clickies trying to win just wait til someone develops a parser for DDO. These things turn people into insufferable monsters in other MMos. Besides things like insta kills spells and such really would not reflect well...anything useful. I guess the other thing is a game like eq2 you actually need a parser to understand a friggin encounter here there is much more knowledge about game mechanics and stuff is much more up front where as other mmos many of the numbers are hidden on monsters like ac and to-hit where they cannot be calculated with relative ease.
It is really not necessary except for those types of people ( and I hope it's a minority) that kill count is important to.

Sark 12 Rogue Khyber

Shaunassey
06-28-2007, 02:26 AM
Forget about kill counts, we all know that they are better ways to show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests.


Therefore I suggest a DPS tabulator - i.e. a tabulation of all the damage that a character has done in a quest. I've seen them and used them in other games like WoW, etc. It's a more accurate representation of DPS.

You could even show average DPS per character.

Just something to think about, DEVS.

Another option would be to allow 3rd party mods in the game so that the players can develop this type of software. That way it would not take any developer time away from other important additions to the game.

/Sarcasm on
Hey while we're at it, let's get a tabulator for how many heals a Cleric does, and what each heal was for HPS* and Buffs BPS*, or maybe one for Wizards buffs and CC that tabulates BPS*, or MCPS*. Or perhaps for Rogues with a Tabulator that measures TDPS*? /Sarcasm off

The only purpose this would serve is for bragging rights for Tanks, and Melee's. I wonder how much lower their DPS would be without Haste or Heals?

Please, this thread is just shamefully self indulgent, and totally counterdict's team work. Remember: " There's no "I" in Team Work" ok, so it's a crappy cliché ....lol

*
HPS = Heals per Second
BPS = Buffs per Second
MCPS = Mobs Controlled Per Second
TDPS = Traps Disabled Per Second

But , Hey, Good luck on getting that put in the game. I don't remember the one we used from PnP... Oh wait... we never used one of those in PnP...My Bad.

Conejo
06-28-2007, 04:19 AM
3) Your argument about it's feasibility is "WoW does it, so DDO should to". That doesn't fly with a lot of people. Just because one MMO does it does not automatically make it so another should. "WoW does it" is not a valid reason for it's inclusion.

"WoW does it" may very well be an active hinderance here, too.

my kneejerk reaction to that would be "Good. one more reason this isn't WoW."

dormetheus
06-28-2007, 06:29 AM
I'm all for it. I posted similar ideas in another thread.

I can only think that this kind of information could help us tweak and fine tune our builds. My idea was that it should be personal information that you could choose to share with the raid/party for future analysis.

Dps; instakills; disables; crits; heals; charms; buffs and debuffs; wand use; damage taken; spells resisted; damage per spell; etc.

Dps would be calculated as damage per swing/swing time. You wouldn't lose dps off the calculator for pausing to heal/bio/buff/save caster.

Vhlad
06-28-2007, 10:46 AM
Dps would be calculated as damage per swing/swing time.

I would rather see total damage than any kind of DPX (damage per X, where X is something (i.e. time, swing, etc)).

Reasons:
1) Off hand attacks deal less damage and would invalidate using damage per swing data as a means to determine who did the most damage. The same applies to attacks which have different attack rates.
2) Difficulty in coding and separating damage from different sources and relating them to a single attack (holy damage, greater bane damage, sneak attack damage, glancing blow damage).
3) Damage dealt from other sources (fire guard, thornguard, etc).
4) Consistency with the kill count already in place should be maintained (i.e. no relation to time).

Much easier just to have a simple damage count, similar to the kill count.

Score Card:

42 monsters killed.
Bob: 24
Jim: 10
Joe: 8


19033 damage dealt.
Bob: 8095
Jim: 500
Joe: 10438

0 traps disabled.

0 secret doors discovered.

0 breakables smashed.

Completion time: 10 minutes

Total XP awarded: 4200



Dunno why people are frowning at that.

binnsr
06-28-2007, 10:57 AM
Personal report for each individual character

Melee Offense

Attacks
Hits
Critical Hits
Unconfirmed Critical Hits
Attacks for Zero Damage
Total Damage
Damage/Hit
Damage/Attack

Arcane Report
Spell Points Used
Spells Cast
Spells Landed
Total Damage
Damage/Spell
Damage/Spell Point

Character Damage Report
Times Attacked
Times Hit
Critical Hits
Unconfirmed Critical Hits
Total Damage
Damage/Hit
Damage/Attack

% of Damage Output
% of Hit Points Healed

add hjeeling stats in there too

I would like to see this kind of information tabulated -- but not at the group level -- I want to be able to see what my character's individual statistics for a given quest are.

Simply allowing us to capture logs would go a long way towards this goal as players could write log parsers to extract information in any number of ways..

Maldini
06-28-2007, 11:25 AM
I would like to see this kind of information tabulated -- but not at the group level -- I want to be able to see what my character's individual statistics for a given quest are.

Simply allowing us to capture logs would go a long way towards this goal as players could write log parsers to extract information in any number of ways..

I agree, and it would let us use mods to sort the data and analyze it.

Maldini
06-28-2007, 11:27 AM
/Sarcasm on
Hey while we're at it, let's get a tabulator for how many heals a Cleric does, and what each heal was for HPS* and Buffs BPS*, or maybe one for Wizards buffs and CC that tabulates BPS*, or MCPS*. Or perhaps for Rogues with a Tabulator that measures TDPS*? /Sarcasm off

The only purpose this would serve is for bragging rights for Tanks, and Melee's. I wonder how much lower their DPS would be without Haste or Heals?

Please, this thread is just shamefully self indulgent, and totally counterdict's team work. Remember: " There's no "I" in Team Work" ok, so it's a crappy cliché ....lol

*
HPS = Heals per Second
BPS = Buffs per Second
MCPS = Mobs Controlled Per Second
TDPS = Traps Disabled Per Second

But , Hey, Good luck on getting that put in the game. I don't remember the one we used from PnP... Oh wait... we never used one of those in PnP...My Bad.

As sarcastic as it was, a cleric healing tabulator would also help the party evaluate its efficiency and could hold a lot of merit. I like your idea.

I've also seen this in 3rd party mods in other games.

Mercules
06-28-2007, 11:36 AM
Yes it is objective because it's an observation of the damage done. I'm not sure you know the difference between subjective and objective. Subjective would be, "Yeah he did a lot of damage, but Player Z was more beneficial to the group because he did A, B, and C. Objective would be, "Player Y did X points of damage of Quest 1 and Player Z did X points of damage. Therefore Player Y did more damage than Player Z."


No... it is not Objective. In order to have an objective test on which the data is based there would be no subjective variation.

Objective: Based on facts
Subjective: Based on ideas or illusion

It is an Objective measure of how much damage you have done but it is a VERY subjective measure of value of the character to the group, just like Kill Count. Now... why do you want a DPS counter? Is just for a laugh? No, it is to use as a value to compare with others. Since this doesn't take into account all the variables involved in the situation it is NOT an objective measure or value between two characters.

I know the definition and I am not arguing that it is not an objective number but instead that is a subjective value to be compared. The perception is that a higher DPS number means more contribution to the quest and or group, that is subjective AND the ONLY reason you would ask for this measure.

Keep bringing up Kill Count already being misused this way, you are only adding to my argument and detracting from your own. We need NO stats, not another one. Or.. at the very least private stats.

Mercules
06-28-2007, 11:39 AM
As sarcastic as it was, a cleric healing tabulator would also help the party evaluate its efficiency and could hold a lot of merit. I like your idea.

I've also seen this in 3rd party mods in other games.

No it wouldn't. As a Cleric I take pride in preventing damage to my "wards" with the use of selective CC and Insta-death. Healing is a last measure. Another statistic that doesn't accurately reflect what is happening. That doesn't make the melee character more efficient, it's ME being more efficient with MY SPs.

Maldini
06-28-2007, 11:40 AM
No... it is not Objective. In order to have an objective test on which the data is based there would be no subjective variation.

Objective: Based on facts
Subjective: Based on ideas or illusion

It is an Objective measure of how much damage you have done but it is a VERY subjective measure of value of the character to the group, just like Kill Count. Now... why do you want a DPS counter? Is just for a laugh? No, it is to use as a value to compare with others. Since this doesn't take into account all the variables involved in the situation it is NOT an objective measure or value between two characters.

I know the definition and I am not arguing that it is not an objective number but instead that is a subjective value to be compared. The perception is that a higher DPS number means more contribution to the quest and or group, that is subjective AND the ONLY reason you would ask for this measure.

Keep bringing up Kill Count already being misused this way, you are only adding to my argument and detracting from your own. We need NO stats, not another one. Or.. at the very least private stats.


Not to argue semantics here, but objectiveness comes from just observing. That's in any stat or science book. The program just observes and totals the damage.

Subjectiveness comes in with interpretation which is what the player does with the numbers.

Maldini
06-28-2007, 11:41 AM
No it wouldn't. As a Cleric I take pride in preventing damage to my "wards" with the use of selective CC and Insta-death. Healing is a last measure. Another statistic that doesn't accurately reflect what is happening. That doesn't make the melee character more efficient, it's ME being more efficient with MY SPs.


You have some serious issues with reality.

Yes it would. A party with an intimitank is going to use much less healing than 5 Barbs and a Cleric. The healing totalizer would show that Group A is much more efficient for the cleric because less healing was needed - the degree of which will show up in the log.

Now you're just being argumentative.

Vox
06-28-2007, 11:58 AM
Whoopie.. another thread where people took the OP and reworded so they could argue about what they wanted.

Look, I don't pay attention to a damage tabulator over the course of a quest. I don't even pay attention to it over the course of a day or week or whatever. What I do use one for... is to say 'ok guys gonna track damage on this next fight, go in there and be as nasty as you can.' then, barring someone getting held or otherwise incapacitated for the duration I can see if there are any glaring holes. Then I can set it up to do it again in another situation. Naturally I don't use a DPS tabulator to compare a tank to a wizard, or a cleric.

Additionally, I'm not all fancy with the numbers like some people. I also use a DPS tabulator to track my own progress. I could use one to compare my DPS with my build depending on different weapon sets, enhancements, and feats.

Nowhere in the original post did Maldini talk about evaluating the usefullness of anyone, he simply talked about comparing the total damage done of the melees. Do I think that should be done under somewhat controlled circumstances? Yes, well I bet Maldini will agree with me that a scientific and objective evaluation of numbers requires a control situation and a test situation. Ideally you only change one thing in the test situation, but we're talking about a game here. We'll probably have each person change stuff around as they're going to try and make their damage dealing the most efficient.

A DPS tabulator can be a useful tool. It also, like anything else, can be misused and incite people to stupidity. Don't blame the tool though, it's the people that are stupid.

Vox

Mercules
06-28-2007, 12:04 PM
Not to argue semantics here, but objectiveness comes from just observing. That's in any stat or science book. The program just observes and totals the damage.

Subjectiveness comes in with interpretation which is what the player does with the numbers.

Yes, and any stat or science book will tell you in order for that observation to be valid and objective all the variables BUT the one(s) you are measuring need to be the same. In DDO they are not going to be, so it is not a valid objective measure.

Mercules
06-28-2007, 12:08 PM
Nowhere in the original post did Maldini talk about evaluating the usefullness of anyone, he simply talked about comparing the total damage done of the melees.

He definitely implied it several times.


Yeah, that's the point of this. Someone can say, hey I got 150 kills! Then the barbarian can say, "Yeah but I did 10,526 points of damage you and did 1,439 points."

No evaluation going on there.:rolleyes:

Alavatar
06-28-2007, 12:11 PM
Forget about kill counts, we all know that they are better ways to show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests.


Nowhere in the original post did Maldini talk about evaluating the usefullness of anyone, he simply talked about comparing the total damage done of the melees.

The quote on top is Maldini's first sentance of the OP and it is not insinuating usefulness between melees by comparing damage output? "Show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests." This says, "See who is better/more useful based on how much damage they do."



A DPS tabulator can be a useful tool. It also, like anything else, can be misused and incite people to stupidity. Don't blame the tool though, it's the people that are stupid.

Vox

A smart tool manufacturer makes tools idiot-proof. A smart tool designer only designs tools that will help someone do their job. Weapon Set Slots are tools. A DPS Tabulator is a feature, not a tool, that would be used by some for the better, and used by idiots for the worse. And we all know that the idiots far outnumber the smart ones.

JosephKell
06-28-2007, 12:34 PM
Actually, I am gonna refine my position. They should add in a DPS tabulator if it won't slow down the game (mainly if it were client side calculations).

That way we could (1) turn it off and (2) know who not to play with again because they start bragging about their DPS.

-JK

Sojourner
06-28-2007, 12:50 PM
Here is what I really want:



The ability to pump ALL damage types done in a vicinity around me to my combat logs

Damage done by me, to me
Damage done by others, to others
Healing done by me, by others. To me, to others
Damage done to pets, by pets
Saving throws made by me, by others, by the mobs
Crits, Fumbles, Special attacks, by who, to who, for what amount

Then -- make all of our chat windows exportable.


Do that, and I don't care if you include a tabulator in the game or not -- I'll export my logs and play around with the numbers myself.

Surely it would be much easier for the devs to just put some more information in the logs and figure out how to export logs than it would be to put a tabulator in the game.

And, it would also fullfill some requests by other people asking for logs to be exportable.





Look, I don't pay attention to a damage tabulator over the course of a quest. I don't even pay attention to it over the course of a day or week or whatever. What I do use one for... is to say 'ok guys gonna track damage on this next fight, go in there and be as nasty as you can.' then, barring someone getting held or otherwise incapacitated for the duration I can see if there are any glaring holes. Then I can set it up to do it again in another situation. Naturally I don't use a DPS tabulator to compare a tank to a wizard, or a cleric.

There is the main reason for using it.

Always going to be some idiots who want to stroke themselves with their numbers. But the majority of people just want to run some comparisons and see if there is any place they can improve.

Mercules
06-28-2007, 01:06 PM
Always going to be some idiots who want to stroke themselves with their numbers. But the majority of people just want to run some comparisons and see if there is any place they can improve.

And I don't have as much of an issue with exporting the data to a log for someone to do calculations off of. My issue is that immediate glance to a data screen where limited info is presented in a manner where some idiot will use it as a reason to do something inane. This sort of thing can turn a good run into a nightmare in seconds. "What? The Ranger is out damaging me?" *ZERG* and the Barbarian doesn't realize it is the Ranger's favored enemy and he is dual wielding bane weapons. :)

Vox
06-28-2007, 01:12 PM
The quote on top is Maldini's first sentance of the OP and it is not insinuating usefulness between melees by comparing damage output? "Show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests." This says, "See who is better/more useful based on how much damage they do."


You're paraphrasing and interpreting his words to be what you want them. I'll do the same...

"Show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests." This says, "See who, over the course of a relatively calm uneventful quest is dealing out the most damage."



A smart tool manufacturer makes tools idiot-proof. A smart tool designer only designs tools that will help someone do their job. Weapon Set Slots are tools. A DPS Tabulator is a feature, not a tool, that would be used by some for the better, and used by idiots for the worse. And we all know that the idiots far outnumber the smart ones.

Well... since you acknowledged that the idiots far outnumber the smarts, there must be a far larger number of idiot tool manufacturer's. This would explain why there are no idiot-proof tools. Show me a tool, I can show you an idiotic way to use it. Weapon Set Slots? How's this for idiotic... let me put this really cool small seeker weapon in the slot first then my big heavy weapon in... hey wait, why is my battleaxe in my off-hand?

Your argument that a "feature is not a tool" is also flawed. "anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose: Education is a tool for success." If I /USE/ a DPS tabulator as a means of accomplishing a task as I described in my post (you took bits and pieces again, good job) then it's a freaking tool, wether you like it or not.

Vox

Vox
06-28-2007, 01:13 PM
He definitely implied it several times.



You quoted something from a reply, not the original post. Try reading my statement.. or even my entire post again.

Vox

Scooter
06-28-2007, 01:15 PM
Forget about kill counts, we all know that they are better ways to show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests.


Therefore I suggest a DPS tabulator - i.e. a tabulation of all the damage that a character has done in a quest. I've seen them and used them in other games like WoW, etc. It's a more accurate representation of DPS.

You could even show average DPS per character.

Just something to think about, DEVS.

Another option would be to allow 3rd party mods in the game so that the players can develop this type of software. That way it would not take any developer time away from other important additions to the game.


No offense, but this is one of the worst ideas I have heard to date.

This game is already too much about stats and gear for too many players. Add DPS and the pocket protector nerds will rule all the game.

I can see it now in the LFM. PAL, BARB, FTR MIN DPS 50 or some such garbage. DnD isnt about DPS, its about the quest and teamwork.

Please don't implement this idea.

Vox
06-28-2007, 01:17 PM
And I don't have as much of an issue with exporting the data to a log for someone to do calculations off of. My issue is that immediate glance to a data screen where limited info is presented in a manner where some idiot will use it as a reason to do something inane. This sort of thing can turn a good run into a nightmare in seconds. "What? The Ranger is out damaging me?" *ZERG* and the Barbarian doesn't realize it is the Ranger's favored enemy and he is dual wielding bane weapons. :)

So you're saying that since you play with idiots, that we shouldn't add things they might use to rationalize their idiocy? Great... let's not put in greater resist cloaks either... cause some moron squishy will think he can just run down the first hall in TF on elite. Let's also not add in any spells to the game that might be more interesting than efficient, cause some idiot will cast grease at a chest.

I have to dumb myself down to the lowest common denominator at work. I don't have to do it here, and neither should you. Pick people to play with based on their behavior and this isn't an issue.

Vox

Vox
06-28-2007, 01:18 PM
No offense, but this is one of the worst ideas I have heard to date.

This game is already too much about stats and gear for too many players. Add DPS and the pocket protector nerds will rule all the game.

I can see it now in the LFM. PAL, BARB, FTR MIN DPS 50 or some such garbage. DnD isnt about DPS, its about the quest and teamwork.

Please don't implement this idea.

Even in games where DPS tabulators exist this is not a problem. Why do you expect DDO to be WORSE than WoW?

Vox

Scooter
06-28-2007, 01:20 PM
Even in games where DPS tabulators exist this is not a problem. Why do you expect DDO to be WORSE than WoW?

Vox

I don't know or care about WOW. I am a DDO fan, but think already the next generation of gamer is too stat oriented.

Just an old head not wanting things to get all technical during game play.

You know if you are dead weight. I don't need no stinkin' DPS calculator to tell me.

:)

Mercules
06-28-2007, 01:26 PM
You quoted something from a reply, not the original post. Try reading my statement.. or even my entire post again.

Vox

Why? Did the message change? I was using the quote from the reply to show that our interpretation of the OP was not necessarily wrong. Look, not only was it stated in the OP, as quoted by another person, but later on he repeats it. 2 instances supporting our supposition that he wants it to compare relative value between two tanks.

Mercules
06-28-2007, 01:32 PM
So you're saying that since you play with idiots, that we shouldn't add things they might use to rationalize their idiocy? Great... let's not put in greater resist cloaks either... cause some moron squishy will think he can just run down the first hall in TF on elite. Let's also not add in any spells to the game that might be more interesting than efficient, cause some idiot will cast grease at a chest.

I have to dumb myself down to the lowest common denominator at work. I don't have to do it here, and neither should you. Pick people to play with based on their behavior and this isn't an issue.

Vox

Of course I play with idiots. This is the joy of MMOs. :rolleyes: I vastly prefer to play with my real life friends or people I have met on DDO who are not idiots. They, however, are not always available during the same times I am. If I want to advance certain characters that are not solo built then I have take the chance that one of the people in my group is going to be an idiot. You can't always detect them at first glance. I can think of one on Fernia who is a apparently a great guide to the Pit, since he wants a Muck'sDoom. Asked about him joining a Titan raid about half the group recognized the name and said no.

Alavatar
06-28-2007, 01:34 PM
You're paraphrasing and interpreting his words to be what you want them. I'll do the same...

"Show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests." This says, "See who, over the course of a relatively calm uneventful quest is dealing out the most damage."

"Work" does not equate to "calm uneventful".


Well... since you acknowledged that the idiots far outnumber the smarts, there must be a far larger number of idiot tool manufacturer's. This would explain why there are no idiot-proof tools. Show me a tool, I can show you an idiotic way to use it. Weapon Set Slots? How's this for idiotic... let me put this really cool small seeker weapon in the slot first then my big heavy weapon in... hey wait, why is my battleaxe in my off-hand?

Your argument that a "feature is not a tool" is also flawed. "anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose: Education is a tool for success." If I /USE/ a DPS tabulator as a means of accomplishing a task as I described in my post (you took bits and pieces again, good job) then it's a freaking tool, wether you like it or not.

Vox

Idiot proof is a double-edged sword. Make something idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Your arguments consist of "I use DPS Tabulator for the helluvit when I feel like it" and "the OP did not state comparing usefulness". I take the pieces of a post that comprise a majority of the argument and argue those points. The other points of a post that I do not quote I either agree with or do not want touch because the debate will eventually become cyclicle.

Now, for your points:

DPS Tabulator is a tool because I use it for a specific purpuse of quantifying my damage output and my progress, potentially the output and progress of those around me. How does this accomplish anything? Refinement? Increase efficiency? How does it make you kill the creatures faster or complete the quest more efficiently? It is not a tool because it does not facilitate the intended use of the game. It is a feature that would be used by a specific subset of the playerbase to compare and contrast data and/or increase their e-ego.

Maldini stated here:

Forget about kill counts, we all know that they are better ways to show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests.

And here:


And yes it is objective. Kill counts are not accurate because insta-kill weapons and spells skew the numbers. DPS shows damage done. Whether you decide to stand there and try to kill everything in site or you're more worried about the caster in the back getting aggro is your own problem.

And here:

Yeah, that's the point of this. Someone can say, hey I got 150 kills! Then the barbarian can say, "Yeah but I did 10,526 points of damage you and did 1,439 points."

He implies that usefulness and/or chest beating should be based off of damage done instead of kill counts, where DPS would exclude Vorpal, Banisher, Disruptor, Con damaging weapons and insta-kill spells.

However, there are many posts by Maldini that state he has the contradictory position of using subjective information (he keeps saying objective, but I believe he means subjective) to further establish usefulness. What he fails to acknowledge is that a large quantity of the playerbase does PUGs, especially on the not-so-high population servers. Because of that adding in more statistics for people to misinterprate will only hurt the game due to the idiots that use them.

binnsr
06-28-2007, 02:27 PM
No offense, but this is one of the worst ideas I have heard to date.

This game is already too much about stats and gear for too many players. Add DPS and the pocket protector nerds will rule all the game.

I can see it now in the LFM. PAL, BARB, FTR MIN DPS 50 or some such garbage. DnD isnt about DPS, its about the quest and teamwork.

Please don't implement this idea.

My pocket protector resents this!

Scooter, your sentiment and theorized outcome is why I'm a proponent of a score-card just for you .. so that you, the player can see where your character's strengths and weaknesses fall out. You don't need to see the numbers for the other player to be able to figure out that if you needed 12000hp worth of heals during the quest that you might want to reconsider your tactics a bit..

Vox
06-28-2007, 02:34 PM
Why? Did the message change? I was using the quote from the reply to show that our interpretation of the OP was not necessarily wrong. Look, not only was it stated in the OP, as quoted by another person, but later on he repeats it. 2 instances supporting our supposition that he wants it to compare relative value between two tanks.

Nope, message still says "original post", I disagree with your interpretation of Maldini's words is the point here, as I made in the response to the person quoting the original post.

The moment you use the term "value" you move into the realm of the subjective. value != work. they are different terms for different things. If you use the word "value" strictly on a numerical basis then it stays objective, I can only assume since you dislike the comparison of value that you mean it subjectively as in "overall value". A DPS tabulator is a numerical device, and its results should be taken in that light. "work" in the original post I believe is intended to represent a numerical value.

Even accounting for "insta-kills" it is more "work" to deal out X damage than it is to swing once and kill something. This isn't necessarily more efficient than insta-kills, it is more "work".

Continued in response to another reply...

Vox

Vox
06-28-2007, 02:40 PM
Of course I play with idiots. This is the joy of MMOs. :rolleyes: I vastly prefer to play with my real life friends or people I have met on DDO who are not idiots. They, however, are not always available during the same times I am. If I want to advance certain characters that are not solo built then I have take the chance that one of the people in my group is going to be an idiot. You can't always detect them at first glance. I can think of one on Fernia who is a apparently a great guide to the Pit, since he wants a Muck'sDoom. Asked about him joining a Titan raid about half the group recognized the name and said no.

I recommend then that you widen your friends list, and make use of guild tags as baseline evaluations of individuals for PUGing. I don't appear to have a similar problem and I play during a wide variation of times. Of course the server population may vary greatly from Aundair's, so perhaps you are in a situation with no easily available solution. Of course this is just a suggestion:) You are welcome to play with anyone in any manner you enjoy!:)

Vox

Mercules
06-28-2007, 02:55 PM
Nope, message still says "original post", I disagree with your interpretation of Maldini's words is the point here, as I made in the response to the person quoting the original post.

He made a statement in the original post. The intent of that statement is further proven by later statements which is what I brought up. You can disagree, but that doesn't make you right. I was taught, when making an argument about something to provide more than one supporting statement for your argument. We have the OP and the additional quotes which show intent of the OP.

The moment you use the term "value" you move into the realm of the subjective. value != work. they are different terms for different things. If you use the word "value" strictly on a numerical basis then it stays objective, I can only assume since you dislike the comparison of value that you mean it subjectively as in "overall value". A DPS tabulator is a numerical device, and its results should be taken in that light. "work" in the original post I believe is intended to represent a numerical value.

"Forget about kill counts, we all know that they are better ways to show what melee classes are doing the majority of the work in quests." That sounds like a comparison. What is a synonym for Comparing things? Analyzing, evaluating.... Oh wait, what is the root word for evaluating? Value. He is using it to value things and has NO intention of this being an objective thing. I look at his intent and at least to me, and a few others, it reads as, "I want to compare myself to others." That is a subjective thing, not objective.

Even accounting for "insta-kills" it is more "work" to deal out X damage than it is to swing once and kill something. This isn't necessarily more efficient than insta-kills, it is more "work".

Continued in response to another reply...

Vox

Vox, why are you supporting his E-peen? Is it really that big he can't do it on his own?

Vox
06-28-2007, 02:57 PM
"Work" does not equate to "calm uneventful".


"calm uneventful" is relative. "calm uneventful" here was intended to imply, no deaths, extended periods of AFK, or other events that might significantly skew the results. I disagree that this cannot occur when work occurs unless you insist that work is an event in which case I could argue that "calm uneventful" never occurs by more widely defining "event".





Idiot proof is a double-edged sword. Make something idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Now, for your points:

DPS Tabulator is a tool because I use it for a specific purpuse of quantifying my damage output and my progress, potentially the output and progress of those around me. How does this accomplish anything? Refinement? Increase efficiency? How does it make you kill the creatures faster or complete the quest more efficiently? It is not a tool because it does not facilitate the intended use of the game. It is a feature that would be used by a specific subset of the playerbase to compare and contrast data and/or increase their e-ego.


Let's see... if I don't know whether my +5 holy maul is better than my +1 holy burst maul because I'm not real good at math, then I turn on my damage tabulator and watch the numbers for a while. I then know which is better, and can kill creatures faster by using the best weapon for the job. I picked two weapons out of mid-air, please don't launch into an argument of X v. Y etc. my point is I can use the tabulator as "tool" to acheive a goal that I may not acheive otherwise.

Just checking but... the intended use of the game is fun? Some people define their fun by min/maxing, improving efficiency, DPS, AC, etc. Other than theoretical mathematics there is no way to prove improvements to DPS.

How about spring attack? That's an even better example. I have it because I believe that it makes things better for me. If I ran the same quests a few times with it, then swapped it out and came back without. I could get a better feel for whether the feat is actually worth it. Sorry, I'm trying to avoid specifics but it occured to me that spring attack has a less clearly calcuable impact.



He implies that usefulness and/or chest beating should be based off of damage done instead of kill counts, where DPS would exclude Vorpal, Banisher, Disruptor, Con damaging weapons and insta-kill spells.

However, there are many posts by Maldini that state he has the contradictory position of using subjective information (he keeps saying objective, but I believe he means subjective) to further establish usefulness. What he fails to acknowledge is that a large quantity of the playerbase does PUGs, especially on the not-so-high population servers. Because of that adding in more statistics for people to misinterprate will only hurt the game due to the idiots that use them.

Information in and of itself by definition is objective. I did X damage, or I killed X monsters is objective. You can use 'objective' information to reach a 'subjective' conclusion.

Your conclusion in regards to PuGs etc is not necessarily bad or wrong. What I would like to see however is Turbine allowing people to mod the UI. This would give those of us who /WANT/ a damage tabulator a method to acquire one, and would not force it on you and the rest of the PuGing population. It is also the end of the original post, and really ought to have been the focus of this thread in my opinion.

Vox

Vox
06-28-2007, 02:59 PM
"Work" does not equate to "calm uneventful".


"calm uneventful" is relative. "calm uneventful" here was intended to imply, no deaths, extended periods of AFK, or other events that might significantly skew the results. I disagree that this cannot occur when work occurs unless you insist that work is an event in which case I could argue that "calm uneventful" never occurs by more widely defining "event".





Idiot proof is a double-edged sword. Make something idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot.

Now, for your points:

DPS Tabulator is a tool because I use it for a specific purpuse of quantifying my damage output and my progress, potentially the output and progress of those around me. How does this accomplish anything? Refinement? Increase efficiency? How does it make you kill the creatures faster or complete the quest more efficiently? It is not a tool because it does not facilitate the intended use of the game. It is a feature that would be used by a specific subset of the playerbase to compare and contrast data and/or increase their e-ego.


Let's see... if I don't know whether my +5 holy maul is better than my +1 holy burst maul because I'm not real good at math, then I turn on my damage tabulator and watch the numbers for a while. I then know which is better, and can kill creatures faster by using the best weapon for the job. I picked two weapons out of mid-air, please don't launch into an argument of X v. Y etc. my point is I can use the tabulator as "tool" to acheive a goal that I may not acheive otherwise.

Just checking but... the intended use of the game is fun? Some people define their fun by min/maxing, improving efficiency, DPS, AC, etc. Other than theoretical mathematics there is no way to prove improvements to DPS.

How about spring attack? That's an even better example. I have it because I believe that it makes things better for me. If I ran the same quests a few times with it, then swapped it out and came back without. I could get a better feel for whether the feat is actually worth it. Sorry, I'm trying to avoid specifics but it occured to me that spring attack has a less clearly calcuable impact.



He implies that usefulness and/or chest beating should be based off of damage done instead of kill counts, where DPS would exclude Vorpal, Banisher, Disruptor, Con damaging weapons and insta-kill spells.

However, there are many posts by Maldini that state he has the contradictory position of using subjective information (he keeps saying objective, but I believe he means subjective) to further establish usefulness. What he fails to acknowledge is that a large quantity of the playerbase does PUGs, especially on the not-so-high population servers. Because of that adding in more statistics for people to misinterprate will only hurt the game due to the idiots that use them.

Information in and of itself by definition is objective. I did X damage, or I killed X monsters is objective. You can use 'objective' information to reach a 'subjective' conclusion.

Your conclusion in regards to PuGs etc is not necessarily bad or wrong. What I would like to see however is Turbine allowing people to mod the UI. This would give those of us who /WANT/ a damage tabulator a method to acquire one, and would not force it on you and the rest of the PuGing population. It is also the end of the original post, and really ought to have been the focus of this thread in my opinion.

Vox

Vox
06-28-2007, 03:03 PM
I don't know or care about WOW. I am a DDO fan, but think already the next generation of gamer is too stat oriented.

:)

I understand that and don't disagree with you necessarily, however my point still stands. Your assessment that :


This game is already too much about stats and gear for too many players. Add DPS and the pocket protector nerds will rule all the game.

I can see it now in the LFM. PAL, BARB, FTR MIN DPS 50 or some such garbage. DnD isnt about DPS, its about the quest and teamwork.


is likely untrue as this is not the case in other games that allow similar features that we are discussing. If other games were in fact like this, then I would agree with you and voice my opinion against this kind of feature.

Vox

Vox
06-28-2007, 03:04 PM
Vox, why are you supporting his E-peen? Is it really that big he can't do it on his own?

Congratulations, this is my last reply to you in this thread, you've managed to devolve your argument to personal attacks instead of anything that makes any kind of vague gesture at logic.

Vox

Mercules
06-28-2007, 03:07 PM
I recommend then that you widen your friends list, and make use of guild tags as baseline evaluations of individuals for PUGing. I don't appear to have a similar problem and I play during a wide variation of times. Of course the server population may vary greatly from Aundair's, so perhaps you are in a situation with no easily available solution. Of course this is just a suggestion:) You are welcome to play with anyone in any manner you enjoy!:)

Vox

Too widen my friend list I have to do what? Oh... play with strangers... who might be... idiots. Yeah.. that is a good solution to avoiding idiots. Guild tags tell you very little the first time you see it. Having a good guild doesn't mean you weren't some guildy's idiot brother that was let in to be nice.

The truth is that there are times in this game where you find yourself needing to PuG if you want to play. The choice is waiting for the people you enjoy playing with, logging out, or playing with PuGgers. This is the nature of the game.

Because of this I believe we should do away with group visible stats and NOT add additional ones. I have run into more people who us those stats as an excuse for bad play, skewing the meaning of those stats to support their ideas, than the opposite. That is a subjective conclusion, BTW, but still valid.

The proposed DPS stat, while different than Kill Count, is still a measure that I can easily see people pointing at and saying, "See... it's ok for me to run into the middle. See how much damage I did?" Ignoring the fact that they died 5 times, sucked the Cleric dry of SPs, wands, and scrolls, and caused 2 party wipes.

I have the option of leaving, but if I just spent an hour of my 3 hours of play getting through part of a long quest chain that I would likely have to start ALL over with another team, I am likely to bite the bullet. I'd prefer not to have this excuse Stat lending people the false idea that they are special.

I agree it wouldn't be a bad idea to have something export the data to a log... after the quest is done. Run some short quest a couple times, compare the stats, and use it to evaluate your play. Not compare numbers as the OP POSTED IN HIS ORIGINAL POST.

Mercules
06-28-2007, 03:09 PM
Congratulations, this is my last reply to you in this thread, you've managed to devolve your argument to personal attacks instead of anything that makes any kind of vague gesture at logic.

Vox

He feels the need to, and I quoted him, say, "So what if you got more kills, I did more damage." What would you call that? He even stated this is why he wants this data presented. It sounds like his ego is bruised and he needs to salve it. This is exactly the result I am arguing will cause people to compete in ways that are not beneficial to the group in a game that relies on group play. Your trying to say, "That is not what he said." Bull... it's exactly what he said. So I asked why you are supporting him.

Alavatar
06-28-2007, 03:20 PM
"calm uneventful" is relative. "calm uneventful" here was intended to imply, no deaths, extended periods of AFK, or other events that might significantly skew the results. I disagree that this cannot occur when work occurs unless you insist that work is an event in which case I could argue that "calm uneventful" never occurs by more widely defining "event".

"Calm uneventful" was meant to imply events that 'might' significantly skew results? Well, then everything in the game is going to be "calm uneventful" because of all the potential events that can skew results. Between having buffs/no buffs/debuffs/cc/tactics fighting(tripping/stunning)/etc that cannot be controlled from group to group unless you play with a specific group each and every time you will never have a consistant basis for valid results from which to interpret.

And where in the OP was it implied that the quests he was referring to consisted of no deaths, extended periods of AFK, or other events that might significantly skew the results?


Let's see... if I don't know whether my +5 holy maul is better than my +1 holy burst maul because I'm not real good at math, then I turn on my damage tabulator and watch the numbers for a while. I then know which is better, and can kill creatures faster by using the best weapon for the job. I picked two weapons out of mid-air, please don't launch into an argument of X v. Y etc. my point is I can use the tabulator as "tool" to acheive a goal that I may not acheive otherwise.

Just checking but... the intended use of the game is fun? Some people define their fun by min/maxing, improving efficiency, DPS, AC, etc. Other than theoretical mathematics there is no way to prove improvements to DPS.

It is not a tool, it is a feature. The objective of the game is to have fun in a party/group setting that is as close to PnP as they can get, hence instanced zones. The weapons themselves are tools. Having a UI allows you to seemlessly conquor the challenges of the game are tools. Something that allows you to evaluate yourself or your tools is a feature.


How about spring attack? That's an even better example. I have it because I believe that it makes things better for me. If I ran the same quests a few times with it, then swapped it out and came back without. I could get a better feel for whether the feat is actually worth it. Sorry, I'm trying to avoid specifics but it occured to me that spring attack has a less clearly calcuable impact.

I have no idea what you are saying here.


Information in and of itself by definition is objective. I did X damage, or I killed X monsters is objective. You can use 'objective' information to reach a 'subjective' conclusion.

Sorry for the confusion, let me clarify. I was stating that Maldini has said that subjective information (running back to help the casters, tripping a creature and moving on to let a high damage character whoop on it, a paladin wand whipping to heal him/herself) should also be used in conjunction with a Tabulator to determine use. This is all subjective, as well as any sort of interpretation of an objective measurement. However, not all measurements or data acquisition is objective for the data obtained could be flawed, skewed, or biased. Specific controlled environments are necessary for getting completely objective data for analysis.


Your conclusion in regards to PuGs etc is not necessarily bad or wrong. What I would like to see however is Turbine allowing people to mod the UI. This would give those of us who /WANT/ a damage tabulator a method to acquire one, and would not force it on you and the rest of the PuGing population. It is also the end of the original post, and really ought to have been the focus of this thread in my opinion.

Vox

As long as it is all client side/personal I don't really care since it is not broadcast to everyone via some sort of badge.

And the subject of making the data from the logs exportable was added to the OP at a later point and edited in since Maldini liked that idea. It was not part of the OP, so was not the original focus of the thread.

Yvonne_Blacksword
06-28-2007, 03:48 PM
I wanted something like that...
the damage dealt with a ~vs~ damage taken...

But now I want more.

I want to know how much the quest cost (via base price of scrolls, wands and potions used and damage to equipment) ~vs~ quest earnings (via chest loot, barrel smashing pulls and end reward base value)

So I could know if it is really worth it to run a cleric while you all fight over kills...and who is uber...and who is most effective.
<sigh>

Vox
06-28-2007, 04:36 PM
"Calm uneventful" was meant to imply events that 'might' significantly skew results? Well, then everything in the game is going to be "calm uneventful" because of all the potential events that can skew results. Between having buffs/no buffs/debuffs/cc/tactics fighting(tripping/stunning)/etc that cannot be controlled from group to group unless you play with a specific group each and every time you will never have a consistant basis for valid results from which to interpret.


For the love of... didn't I already agree the concept of a tabulator might be poor for PuGs?




It is not a tool, it is a feature. The objective of the game is to have fun in a party/group setting that is as close to PnP as they can get, hence instanced zones. The weapons themselves are tools. Having a UI allows you to seemlessly conquor the challenges of the game are tools. Something that allows you to evaluate yourself or your tools is a feature.


I use a damage tabulator to evaluate the relative effectiveness of a feature like Spring Attack...

Definition of Tool pulled from Dictionary.com: anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose

Can you please explain to me how the damage tabulator (thing) is not used as a means of accomplishing the evaluation (task)?

I'm willing to agree that a tool can be a feature and vice versa. For example, a "feature" of DDO is equipment. equipment are "tools" characters use to accomplish quests.






Specific controlled environments are necessary for getting completely objective data for analysis.



Not true. specific controlled environments are necessary for getting data from which you can draw objective evaluations. The data itself is never subejctive.

Vox

P.S. I eliminated discussion of the original posters intent simply to carry on with what I considered more useful discussion. It isn't particularly useful for us to bicker about someone else's intent when it's clear that we will continue to disagree, and I'm not interested in trying to back quote multiple posts to make my point.

Alavatar
06-28-2007, 05:55 PM
For the love of... didn't I already agree the concept of a tabulator might be poor for PuGs?

No, you did not. After re-reading all of your posts I did not find anything stating you agree, but it is good to know. But your agreement does not diminish the significance of the inclusion of a DPS tabulator when a large quantity of players (I cannot and will not say majority because I honestly don't know) PUG and the effect a DPS tabulator would have.



Definition of Tool pulled from Dictionary.com: anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose

Can you please explain to me how the damage tabulator (thing) is not used as a means of accomplishing the evaluation (task)?

I'm willing to agree that a tool can be a feature and vice versa. For example, a "feature" of DDO is equipment. equipment are "tools" characters use to accomplish quests.

Do you really want to get in an argument where definitions are pulled from websites? Here's another website for you: http://www.thefreedictionary.com/tool

Only "4. Something used in the performance of an operation; an instrument: "Modern democracies have the fiscal and monetary tools . . . to end chronic slumps and galloping inflations" Paul A. Samuelson." even comes close to the definition you found, and even the example uses the term 'tool' in a different sense then you intend. I am stating that a tool is "3. Something regarded as necessary to the carrying out of one's occupation or profession: Words are the tools of our trade."

Since a DPS tabulator is not necessary to carrying out of one's occupation (adventurer) it is not a tool. It is a feature.

Now, we can either agree to disagree, or continue to argue pointless semantics about whether a DPS tabulator would be a tool or a feature that will continue to devolve in both of us citing questionable internet sources (and I am relying on occupational and professional knowledge).


Not true. specific controlled environments are necessary for getting VALID data from which you can draw objective evaluations. The data itself is never subejctive.

Vox

Fixed.

I agree that data is never subjective, but depending on how the data is collected it could easily be biased and therefore not objective. The controlled environment is required for valid data that is not biased.

For instance, data acquired from testing an L14 build on kobolds would be biased due to differences in CR and therefore rejectable. Data acquired from testing an L14 build against Gianthold creatures can be much more neutral. So, people that say they get 50DPS (example) might have gotten that against kobolds, but only get 15DPS when fighting giants in GH.


P.S. I eliminated discussion of the original posters intent simply to carry on with what I considered more useful discussion. It isn't particularly useful for us to bicker about someone else's intent when it's clear that we will continue to disagree, and I'm not interested in trying to back quote multiple posts to make my point.

Fair enough. But our discussions are digressing from the topic of the OP. Our debate started because you disagreed with how some people were interpreting the OP and his defense of the idea.

Uska
06-28-2007, 06:43 PM
How about no and lets change the kill counter to a party kill counter instead of each character

binnsr
06-28-2007, 06:47 PM
How about no and lets change the kill counter to a party kill counter instead of each character
Works for me.
Or would if I could log into the game :D

Uska
06-28-2007, 06:48 PM
Not really. I've used them. I'm old fashioned in the sense that I don't like to rely on the hope that a mob is going to fail a save or I'll roll a 20. I like to bring them down with pure DPS, something that will never fail.

This thing is silly as my paladin and my rngr/ftr often stop in the middle of combat to wand whip or lay hands on someone taking more damage then myself so they keep doing damage mindlessly instead of trying something to stay alive if I didnt do it they would die and then your dps would drop to 0 also my rg/wiz sometimes wand whips or pops off the rare heal scroll again saving the mindless dpser this is just another thing for some fool to brag about in chat and NOT NEEDED love your builds but this is worthless

Uska
06-28-2007, 06:50 PM
The better way to do this would be for Turbine to allow 3rd party mods to be used in their game. Then you take the work away from the devs and in the hands of the players. That's how it's done in other games and it works quite well.

An even worse idea opening game to mods just opens it more to hacks

Conejo
06-28-2007, 07:38 PM
How about no and lets change the kill counter to a party kill counter instead of each character

that's what i said somewhere on page 1.

zakattack423
06-28-2007, 07:46 PM
I like having the Party Kill Counter and then have a single character damage counter

Fredster
06-28-2007, 07:51 PM
I say there should be a reward of 10% or better for the group on a quest if a Cleric can not lose one party member.Why not?There will be better groupings to ultimatly focus on a quest rather than individual statistics.I can ramble off more pros for this,but would rather see it happen and /or hear from other people.

Uska
06-28-2007, 11:21 PM
that's what i said somewhere on page 1.

Yeah I saw that after I replied I usually reply to the op before reading the others replies so sometimes I repeat what smart people post:)

Vox
06-29-2007, 02:47 AM
No, you did not. After re-reading all of your posts I did not find anything stating you agree, but it is good to know. But your agreement does not diminish the significance of the inclusion of a DPS tabulator when a large quantity of players (I cannot and will not say majority because I honestly don't know) PUG and the effect a DPS tabulator would have.



You are correct, I thought it, and even wrote it into the first draft of one of my replies, then rewrote it out. I agree that a damage tabulator may have a negative impact on PuGs. That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice to have for me. I could be wrong as I don't really like having to re-read the entire thread to carry on a conversation, but I think I mentioned that a better solution would be to allow UI mods. Which would allow for some nice person out there to make me a DPS tabulator that I could download and use for my own personal objectives.



Do you really want to get in an argument where definitions are pulled from websites?
Since a DPS tabulator is not necessary to carrying out of one's occupation (adventurer) it is not a tool. It is a feature.


My occupation is not "adventurer" it might be game player. Secondly, by your own definitions, if I "use" the "dps tabulator" in the "operation" of comparing the effects of my actions in two different states it is a "tool".



Now, we can either agree to disagree, or continue to argue pointless semantics about whether a DPS tabulator would be a tool or a feature that will continue to devolve in both of us citing questionable internet sources (and I am relying on occupational and professional knowledge).


I like semantics, how did we end up on the tool v. feature discussion anyway?




I agree that data is never subjective, but depending on how the data is collected it could easily be biased and therefore not objective. The controlled environment is required for valid data that is not biased.


What is something that is neither objective nor subjective? For my own edification.



For instance, data acquired from testing an L14 build on kobolds would be biased due to differences in CR and therefore rejectable. Data acquired from testing an L14 build against Gianthold creatures can be much more neutral. So, people that say they get 50DPS (example) might have gotten that against kobolds, but only get 15DPS when fighting giants in GH.


depending on how damage actually calculates and reports, it might be entirely viable to make use of the data from the kobolds. Just because you have to be intelligent when evaluating data doesn't make the data "biased". You keep applying that term to data when it just doesn't apply. There are a number of factors that could play into this which could make the data less useful. One example would be if damage above the kill threshold isn't reported... like if I can never get a report of hitting for 60 HP because the kobold only had 30. However, if I can get a full report of the data in situations that can be proportionately similar to GH I can extrapolate something reasonable.

Even so, your argument here is again that someone being stupid is a reason not to have something. I don't buy into that argument for reasons we've already gone over I think. Honestly, I'm of the opinion that people in PUGs should be more worried about making the quest go smoothly with a bunch of strangers than whether they can beat some random schmuck they just met. Perhaps that lack of focus is why I have come to avoid PUGs. I'm probably just jaded *shrug*.




Fair enough. But our discussions are digressing from the topic of the OP. Our debate started because you disagreed with how some people were interpreting the OP and his defense of the idea.

Actually I said nothing about his defense of the idea, I referred only to his original post , I think his defense of the idea may have been poor and/or ineffective. This however doesn't detract from the fact that the idea is reasonable, especially in terms of allowing UI mods so these things can be created independently.

Honestly Alavatar I'm enjoying the discourse as it's a solid back and forth without too much retread, and I've certainly gained a bit of perspective on why perhaps PUGs shouldn't have too much statistical data. I just don't think that's a reason to not allow anyone access to it.

Vox

Mercules
06-29-2007, 11:02 AM
Even so, your argument here is again that someone being stupid is a reason not to have something. I don't buy into that argument for reasons we've already gone over I think. Honestly, I'm of the opinion that people in PUGs should be more worried about making the quest go smoothly with a bunch of strangers than whether they can beat some random schmuck they just met. Perhaps that lack of focus is why I have come to avoid PUGs. I'm probably just jaded *shrug*.

But they don't. I have a perfect example from when I had started my Range based Fighter. I had picked up a +1 Shock Hvy Rep of PG and so I decided it was time to try out a ranged Fighter as I like non-stereotypes.

I joined a group that had one other Fighter, a Melee focussed character. Quest started and everything was going smoothly. We hit a shrine and most of the party stays together but I notice the Fighter is taking damage and isn't there. I run off to help him out in case he gets in trouble. He immediately runs off to jump on the next group of mobs, still hurt. Cleric and others catch up and he is healed to full but keeps zerging.

I'm confused as now the Cleric is going through a lot of SPs while they didn't in the beginning. The Fighter has a 2H-er out instead of the sword/board he was using and is zerging ahead while before he stuck with the group.

I remained confused until I open the quest log to check on Ransack/Conquest and I was leading the kill count, by a significant amount. I believe someone noticed that and switched to a higher damage weapon and started zerging to "catch up". I think someone also doesn't realize that that sort of weapon in the hands of a character built for it can do a LOT of damage very quickly, at that level. Later on his damage would far outshine mine, but around that 4-5 level range that Hvy Rep was deadly and powerful and he doesn't have numerous extra attacks to pull away with.

The point remains that while many people would use such tools to good effect, many would also use them as an excuse for bad play.

Many of us opposed to the in game stats, are not opposed to some sort of downloaded log that could be parsed out for stats, we just don't think it should be the immediate feedback in game. Many also believe that the Kill Count should be removed from the quest screen.

Maldini
07-02-2007, 01:32 AM
This thing is silly as my paladin and my rngr/ftr often stop in the middle of combat to wand whip or lay hands on someone taking more damage then myself so they keep doing damage mindlessly instead of trying something to stay alive if I didnt do it they would die and then your dps would drop to 0 also my rg/wiz sometimes wand whips or pops off the rare heal scroll again saving the mindless dpser this is just another thing for some fool to brag about in chat and NOT NEEDED love your builds but this is worthless

What are you talking about? It's called Trip and other crowd control abilities.

Maldini
07-02-2007, 01:33 AM
An even worse idea opening game to mods just opens it more to hacks


Wow, you are truly an enlightened individual. I'm sure there's absolutely no way to control it right? Every other game out there is breaking because of all the hacks that are coming in via 3rd party mods...like Final Fantasy, WoW, etc.

Maldini
07-02-2007, 01:33 AM
How about no and lets change the kill counter to a party kill counter instead of each character


Sounds like someone has a self-esteem issue. Your right, and we should sit down by a camp-fire and hold hands. You play games to have fun and possibly have a little friendly competition. There's nothing wrong with that.

So how about yes.

OKCRandy1
07-02-2007, 11:26 PM
One layer of D&D has always been the game of numbers. Some people enjoy that aspect of the game more than others. If someone can have fun with more statistics, I don't see a valid argument for not giving them every quatifiable bit of quest information. We all can tell what's going on with a group, doesn't take Isaac Newton to see who we enjoy questing with and who we don't. If people want to argue bragging rights, let them, argueing bragging rights can also be part of the game.

Uska
07-03-2007, 12:27 AM
Sounds like someone has a self-esteem issue. Your right, and we should sit down by a camp-fire and hold hands. You play games to have fun and possibly have a little friendly competition. There's nothing wrong with that.

So how about yes.

NO and I usually lead kill counts on either my mage or my fighter when I bother to check it you silly idea will lead to more people trying to cause trouble and thats whats wrong with your idea its a waste as is the kill counter I play this game to have fun with a group as its the closest I can get to playing dnd lately with our groups time tables lately not to brag on how much damage or how many I have killed and certainly not to hear someone else do it either.

Conejo
07-03-2007, 07:35 AM
Sounds like someone has a self-esteem issue. Your right, and we should sit down by a camp-fire and hold hands. You play games to have fun and possibly have a little friendly competition. There's nothing wrong with that.

So how about yes.

there's a reason not everyone is in the Twilight Avengers.

you're just making it clearer to everyone else.

Hvymetal
07-03-2007, 08:21 AM
Why do I get the feeling this would lead to even less groups for a cursespewer/para weilding rogue? No traps sorry, you can't get enough kills or do enough DPS, *sigh*

Uska
07-03-2007, 08:28 AM
Why do I get the feeling this would lead to even less groups for a cursespewer/para weilding rogue? No traps sorry, you can't get enough kills or do enough DPS, *sigh*

Yet another good reason this is one of the worst ideas yet.

noneill
07-03-2007, 09:37 AM
It would be great to have all these stats but only let people see their own. That way you can see what weapons and strategies work best for YOU and not worry about what the other people in the group had for DPS etc.