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joker965
06-27-2007, 11:00 AM
The real challange for the DEVs when they raise the level cap in DDO is the addition of new spell levels and tweaking those spells before going live. My suggestion to Turbine is to just "get it over with" and add the level 8 and 9 spells all at once.

Raise the cap to 17 from 14. There already is enough content to get to 17 easily. Just add two or three "really hard" quests along with level 17 and all would go well I think. After that it would be easy to add more spells and quests at every module and raising the cap to 20 can be done at Turbine's leisure.

Also, for a long time after that the only thing needed would be more content. All of the "core" would be in place. Housing, crafting, another city, all could be added after the "core" game is in place.

Why not go all the way?

Edit: Possibly 18 so the sorcs don't freak out.

Solik
06-27-2007, 11:15 AM
It would indeed have to be 18.

That's another two levels of class abilities, class enhancements, race enhancements, magic items, and quests.

Increasing the cap by 2 levels takes a certain amount of effort. So, all you'd be getting with asking for a +4 increase is a greater delay in said increase.

The incremental method is working.

joker965
06-27-2007, 11:45 AM
It would indeed have to be 18.

That's another two levels of class abilities, class enhancements, race enhancements, magic items, and quests.

Increasing the cap by 2 levels takes a certain amount of effort. So, all you'd be getting with asking for a +4 increase is a greater delay in said increase.

The incremental method is working.

I guess i'm thinking that the total effort to go from 14 -> 18 would only be about 150% of going from 14 -> 16. But going 14 -> 16 and then 16 -> 18 would be 200%.

I just think it might be more efficient to go to 18 with less spells and then fill in the holes after.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-27-2007, 11:54 AM
Adding 4 levels instead of 2 only means we wait twice as long for new content. Hopefully they have planned how things will work through L20 to minimize the rebalancing as they go, but the actually coding and implimentation should be done in reasonable sized chunks so we can get it sooner rather than later.

joker965
06-27-2007, 11:57 AM
Adding 4 levels instead of 2 only means we wait twice as long for new content. Hopefully they have planned how things will work through L20 to minimize the rebalancing as they go, but the actually coding and implimentation should be done in reasonable sized chunks so we can get it sooner rather than later.

Yes, but once the level 9 spells are in then 90% of the dev's time could be spent on content. Currently a good chunk of time is spent on advancing the game system itself.

Avonwey
06-27-2007, 11:58 AM
The incremental method is working.

Gee I dunno... 2 level increases in 18 months? Doesn't seem to be "working" to me.

Swordalot
06-27-2007, 12:03 PM
Gee I dunno... 2 level increases in 18 months? Doesn't seem to be "working" to me.

Would you rather get that fantastic "Wooooow" feeling we got with Mod 4 and Gianthold, and all the new spells, or a half-assed... "Meh" with merely a level cap increase and some spells.

I'd rather they code me some more content, for 3 reasons.
A) More content generally means more fun (Litany excluded :D )
II) More content means easier to level, not just repeating the same high-end quests that I'm already almost at the XP cap of.
3) More content means easier 1750. Yeah, that's right. 3 capped toons, not one even passed 1500. Too lazy. More content means I jump on the "run it elite and forget about it for 6 months" bus.

So yeah, their 18 month increase of only 4 levels, while not as fast as we'd all like, is pretty good.
What other MMO releases (almost) monthly updates, that, while not always awesometastic, do make a better game?

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 12:54 PM
The real challange for the DEVs when they raise the level cap in DDO is the addition of new spell levels and tweaking those spells before going live. My suggestion to Turbine is to just "get it over with" and add the level 8 and 9 spells all at once.
I have the opposite suggestion:

Raise the level cap one at a time, instead of 2 at a time. That will make DDO resemble PnP more closely. In particular, in PnP there is a substantial advantage to a pure wizard or cleric who gets an expanded spell list one level earlier than a sorceror or multiclass caster. Since DDO players know the level cap always increases in steps of 2, one of the advantages a cleric 14 has over a cleric 13/fighter1 has been removed.


Raise the cap to 17 from 14. There already is enough content to get to 17 easily.
Yes, there might be enough quests already to bring you to level 17... but there is NOT enough content to support level 17.

In fact, there isn't even enough content for level 14. There are only 5 level 14 quests in DDO... and one of them is only repeatable on a 3-day timer. Four quests of a certain level simply isn't enough to support play at that level.

I really wonder what Turbine is thinking raising the cap to 14, giving it only 4 quests, and then bringing out the next two updates over three months without adding any more level 14 quests. How can they think that quests at level 10 and level 4 have higher priority?

Riggs
06-27-2007, 03:22 PM
Yes, there might be enough quests already to bring you to level 17... but there is NOT enough content to support level 17.

In fact, there isn't even enough content for level 14. There are only 5 level 14 quests in DDO... and one of them is only repeatable on a 3-day timer. Four quests of a certain level simply isn't enough to support play at that level.



Indeed - we need a level 12-14 equivalent of Tangleroot and Cult of Six. An escalating series of quests with a good static reward at the end. Decent xp too for the effort (for those not capped).

Right now there is essentially 9 new quests in the Tor, 11 if you count the pre-raid and raid. Of those 9, only 2 are really longish (Madstone and Crucible). So it is possible to do all the quests on the tor in a fairly short period of time. Like 2 days of play time if you spend more than 5 hours at the computer.

Granted there was more to mod 4 than 9 quests, but content is fairly important. I love the Cerulean hills, but it doesnt take long to get past 4th level. Doing slayer stuff in the Tor can be cool - but again, with the xp available now to someone who was at 12 before the patch came out, it really didnt take long to hit 14 and cap out, making the slayer quests not as enticing (except for maybe planning ahead to 16, and getting yourself to a high number, so that once the next raise comes you can kill 10 guys and get a big xp jump for 2 minutes of work)

One or two more raids kind of like Tempest (no pre-reqs), and maybe 1 or two longer quest chains, would really fill out the available content.

Conejo
06-27-2007, 03:44 PM
I guess i'm thinking that the total effort to go from 14 -> 18 would only be about 150% of going from 14 -> 16. But going 14 -> 16 and then 16 -> 18 would be 200%.

I just think it might be more efficient to go to 18 with less spells and then fill in the holes after.

in reality, though, going straight from 14 to 18 would wind up being something akin to a 250-300% time/trouble increase rather than 14 to 16 and later 16 to 18. likely more.

ArkoHighStar
06-27-2007, 04:04 PM
Indeed - we need a level 12-14 equivalent of Tangleroot and Cult of Six. An escalating series of quests with a good static reward at the end. Decent xp too for the effort (for those not capped).

Right now there is essentially 9 new quests in the Tor, 11 if you count the pre-raid and raid. Of those 9, only 2 are really longish (Madstone and Crucible). So it is possible to do all the quests on the tor in a fairly short period of time. Like 2 days of play time if you spend more than 5 hours at the computer.

Granted there was more to mod 4 than 9 quests, but content is fairly important. I love the Cerulean hills, but it doesnt take long to get past 4th level. Doing slayer stuff in the Tor can be cool - but again, with the xp available now to someone who was at 12 before the patch came out, it really didnt take long to hit 14 and cap out, making the slayer quests not as enticing (except for maybe planning ahead to 16, and getting yourself to a high number, so that once the next raise comes you can kill 10 guys and get a big xp jump for 2 minutes of work)

One or two more raids kind of like Tempest (no pre-reqs), and maybe 1 or two longer quest chains, would really fill out the available content.

Please no quest chains, and no static rewards . They were the bane of this game as had to find groups willing to do the whole thing at once, because unless you had a static group you could never put a group together to start at step 3 and you would always start over for the new guy and then people would drop and you would never finish. The new system of related quests done in any order is much better. Static rewards also screwed up the game as it made everyone have the same cookie cutter equipment. The new system is much better with rare non binding items randomly appearing in the same chest.

Klattuu
06-27-2007, 04:45 PM
The real challange for the DEVs when they raise the level cap in DDO is the addition of new spell levels and tweaking those spells before going live. My suggestion to Turbine is to just "get it over with" and add the level 8 and 9 spells all at once.

Raise the cap to 17 from 14. There already is enough content to get to 17 easily. Just add two or three "really hard" quests along with level 17 and all would go well I think. After that it would be easy to add more spells and quests at every module and raising the cap to 20 can be done at Turbine's leisure.

Also, for a long time after that the only thing needed would be more content. All of the "core" would be in place. Housing, crafting, another city, all could be added after the "core" game is in place.

Why not go all the way?

Edit: Possibly 18 so the sorcs don't freak out.

There is a lot more to consider in a level than spells.

Besides, many spells are developed and released at least one level higher than what is available to the characters but typically the mobs get to playtest these before the players get their hands on them.

Uska
06-27-2007, 05:02 PM
They should never do an odd number lvl increase if they go that high next time they need to go to 18 or they do a real number on sorcerers not that I play one but they need to be fair to our large number of players who do

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 06:16 PM
They should never do an odd number lvl increase if they go that high next time they need to go to 18 or they do a real number on sorcerers not that I play one but they need to be fair to our large number of players who do
No. The current system of increasing the cap by steps of 2 is unfair to wizards and non-multiclassed casters, who by the PnP rules are supposed to get new spell levels faster than sorcerers do.

According to the PnP example, at any particular random time between level 3-19, there is a 50% chance a wizard will have higher level spells available than a sorceror. But since DDO characters spend a majority of their time sitting at the level cap, that effect is missing from this game version.

Right now DDO has very little incentive for a cleric to not take one level of fighter or paladin. If the level cap increased in steps of 1, the penalty would be more real.

Karos
06-27-2007, 06:44 PM
Gimpster, the problem with only going up one level at a time would simply be that this scenario would happen quite often.

Player 1: Hmm, new mod, I better go get exp to level up
*Player 1 heads to Threnal Ruins and kills 1 giant*
Player 1: Doh, at the level cap, better find an elite run of the latest loot run.
*Three loot runs later*
Player1: I'm bored

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 07:00 PM
Gimpster, the problem with only going up one level at a time would simply be that this scenario would happen quite often.
As opposed to what happened with module 4, where you killed 1 giant to hit level 13, and then ran Prison of the Planes five times to hit level 14?

There is no reason Turbine needs to allow DDO characters to collect XP towards advancing to a level past the current level cap.

Olaff
06-27-2007, 07:32 PM
As opposed to what happened with module 4, where you killed 1 giant to hit level 13...

I didn't even do that, I just ran out to the first "exploration" encounter in Gianthold. ;)

Shecky
06-27-2007, 10:00 PM
I guess i'm thinking that the total effort to go from 14 -> 18 would only be about 150% of going from 14 -> 16. But going 14 -> 16 and then 16 -> 18 would be 200%.

I just think it might be more efficient to go to 18 with less spells and then fill in the holes after.

One of the reasons for smaller increments in constantly-growing products is that it's easier to identify and attempt to iron out a smaller number of bugs at once (if that's even doable). Two levels' worth of content, adjustments, etc. will produce a certain amount of bugs; three will produce much more. With all the bugs and dissatisfaction that came out with both of the level cap increases so far, imagine what it would've been like if all of that had happened at once. And going up by two odd-numbered levels means some classes have TWO new spell levels - that alone would do horrible things to the chances for more bugs. Not to mention the much larger amount of content necessary for supporting three levels' advancement instead of two.

On a more business-related level, to go from 14 to 20 in two-level steps means that there will be three level cap increases, while three-level steps will only make two increases. Spreading out your product release to keep your player base longer is classic business practice.

Uska
06-28-2007, 12:33 AM
No. The current system of increasing the cap by steps of 2 is unfair to wizards and non-multiclassed casters, who by the PnP rules are supposed to get new spell levels faster than sorcerers do.

According to the PnP example, at any particular random time between level 3-19, there is a 50% chance a wizard will have higher level spells available than a sorceror. But since DDO characters spend a majority of their time sitting at the level cap, that effect is missing from this game version.

Right now DDO has very little incentive for a cleric to not take one level of fighter or paladin. If the level cap increased in steps of 1, the penalty would be more real.

Your silly they still get them faster maybe a little dif then what you want but not everyone powers through the levels I have been here since headstart and only have one cap'd character and a couple others at level 7-13 only 2 have favor above 1000 and only one has the big favor number. This isnt pnp its a business and even number class types need their updates at the same time as odd number spell casters.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-28-2007, 07:01 AM
As opposed to what happened with module 4, where you killed 1 giant to hit level 13, and then ran Prison of the Planes five times to hit level 14?

There is no reason Turbine needs to allow DDO characters to collect XP towards advancing to a level past the current level cap.

They were going to stop us at the +4 AP point and people SCREAMED at even that loss of 20% of their pre-earning potential

MysticTheurge
06-28-2007, 07:11 AM
No. The current system of increasing the cap by steps of 2 is unfair to wizards and non-multiclassed casters, who by the PnP rules are supposed to get new spell levels faster than sorcerers do.

They may not get them noticeably faster but they still get more of them faster.

Reduction in the number of high level spell slots is the reason I haven't multiclassed my caster.

Mad_Bombardier
06-28-2007, 09:58 AM
As opposed to what happened with module 4, where you killed 1 giant to hit level 13, and then ran Prison of the Planes five times to hit level 14?At least poor Threnal Giant #1 is now safe from poachers. At lvl 14, he no longer grants XP for killing him. :)

(you have to go in and kill the Giant Roadblock 4 ogres, 2 hill giants for 29XP to level to 15 in future Mods) ;)

Mad_Bombardier
06-28-2007, 10:02 AM
They were going to stop us at the +4 AP point and people SCREAMED at even that loss of 20% of their pre-earning potentialI was all for it. I actually like the idea of needing to try the new upper level quests one rank below level before running them at level (you could, of course, rerun old quests to level then start new quests at level). But as you said, relentless nerd fury was unleashed on the forums at the mere mention of the idea. :(

Sokar6000
06-29-2007, 05:42 AM
No, DO NOT cap at level 17.

DO NOT.

EVER.

CONSIDER.

THIS.

EVER.

In order to maintain the power balance between wizards and sorcerers, (which, for the record, is already incredibly screwed up.) the level cap must be even.

Mad_Bombardier
06-29-2007, 09:34 AM
In order to maintain the dominance of Sorcerers over Wizards (which, for the record, is already incredibly screwed up) the level cap must be even.Fixed that for ya. ;) And the parenthetical makes soooo much more sense now.

Sokar6000
06-30-2007, 12:57 AM
Fixed that for ya. ;) And the parenthetical makes soooo much more sense now.


Huh? Have you been living under a rock the past year? Wizards are so overpowered to sorcerers that seems almost pointless to play one.

An increase in level cap to an odd level where my sorcerer becomes totally nerfed is the only thing I can see causing me to quit this game.

Tavok
06-30-2007, 01:02 AM
I think everyone is missing the point. He doesn't say "screw quests just throw in some spells and there ya go, its mod 5". He means to also throw in some new content, just not AS much as a normal mod would (say mod 4). This means that we get to level 20 quickly, allowing the devs to come up with much much more content then because they can focus SPEFICALLY on new quests/cool additions/etc.

Tavok
06-30-2007, 01:04 AM
Huh? Have you been living under a rock the past year? Wizards are so overpowered to sorcerers that seems almost pointless to play one.

An increase in level cap to an odd level where my sorcerer becomes totally nerfed is the only thing I can see causing me to quit this game.

You can't be serious man lol.

Think about it. As a sorcerer you get over 500 more mana than the average wizard. Pair this with faster casting times, and double bonus from a Mana Item, and you have sorcerers grossly over powering wizards. Not to mention the fact that sorcerers have enough CHA for an extremely high UMD (not saying that wizards can't get UMD, its just easier for Sorc's to achieve it).

Rog
07-01-2007, 04:17 AM
Come on guy and girls one level cap at a time are you freaking nuts that like a one or 2 days game time ping i leveled gratz wait anouther 6 months to do it again. the bugs is a big problem that a lot programing to do it right even with a test server one little line can screw up the game. have to teams the one going with the by monthy update and the other working on the Big Project which would bring a massive game update and doulde the size of ddo there would still be bug issues there always bug issues.

Lorien_the_First_One
07-01-2007, 10:05 AM
You can't be serious man lol.

Think about it. As a sorcerer you get over 500 more mana than the average wizard. Pair this with faster casting times, and double bonus from a Mana Item, and you have sorcerers grossly over powering wizards. Not to mention the fact that sorcerers have enough CHA for an extremely high UMD (not saying that wizards can't get UMD, its just easier for Sorc's to achieve it).

A wizards gets more spells and the ability to change them. That's an incredible advantage. You also get a whole bunch of additional feats meaning your ability to cast metamagic and increase your DCs outstrips the Sorc. In exchange for slightly slower cast times, you also gain the spontaneous spell casting that is supposed to be only for Sorcerers and thereby you gain their biggest advantage for almost free. If you are a thinking player there is no doubt the Wiz is the more powerful caster.

The Sorc just has a few more rounds in their gun.

Brianius
07-01-2007, 11:24 AM
sorcs are behind by one level of spell casting compared to wizards so thats probably why they do 2 at a time and keep it at even levels.

joker965
07-01-2007, 08:39 PM
I think everyone is missing the point. He doesn't say "screw quests just throw in some spells and there ya go, its mod 5". He means to also throw in some new content, just not AS much as a normal mod would (say mod 4). This means that we get to level 20 quickly, allowing the devs to come up with much much more content then because they can focus SPEFICALLY on new quests/cool additions/etc.

Thank you. This is exactly my point.

DragonKiller
07-01-2007, 09:31 PM
Turbine has in no way proved they have the ability to in a reasonable time frame, smoothly do all the coding and upgrading required to go up 4 levels. They can't even get a database upgrade, or a performance upgrade right.

No thanks on the 4 level step up. The pain would probably kill the game.