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Draclaud
06-27-2007, 09:58 AM
I have a favorite feat in PnP.
ENERGY SUBSTITUTION [METAMAGIC]

Prerequisites: Any other metamagic feat, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.

Benefit: You choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. When employing a spell with the acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic designator, you can modify the spell to use your chosen type of energy instead. The altered spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level.

The altered spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time the feat applies to a different type of energy.

Wouldn't it be nice to get this in DDO? With all the enhancement's based on elements I'd love to get this. BTW I'd pick Sonic, as most stuff doesn't have immunities to Sonic.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 01:46 PM
BTW I'd pick Sonic, as most stuff doesn't have immunities to Sonic.
That would be a mistake. You should pick acid, because you can get enhancements for +40% damage from acid. Wizards don't get Sonic damage enhancements.

FlyinS
06-27-2007, 01:49 PM
Acidball, Acidic Ray, Wall of Acid.



:D :D :D

DSL
06-27-2007, 02:13 PM
I have a favorite feat in PnP.
ENERGY SUBSTITUTION [METAMAGIC]

Prerequisites: Any other metamagic feat, Knowledge (arcana) 5 ranks.

Benefit: You choose one type of energy: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. When employing a spell with the acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic designator, you can modify the spell to use your chosen type of energy instead. The altered spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level.

The altered spell works normally in all respects except the type of damage dealt.

Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time the feat applies to a different type of energy.

Wouldn't it be nice to get this in DDO? With all the enhancement's based on elements I'd love to get this. BTW I'd pick Sonic, as most stuff doesn't have immunities to Sonic.

Which is presumably the reason that WotC specifically excluded Sonic from the available energy types for this feat.

Also, adapting this to DDO would probably require some sort of additional SP cost, since the spell slot system used in DDO makes this feat far too powerful otherwise.

negative
06-27-2007, 02:19 PM
Also, adapting this to DDO would probably require some sort of additional SP cost, since the spell slot system used in DDO makes this feat far too powerful otherwise.

According to the description the OP posted, there is no additional cost in PnP. Why would you go reinventing the wheel and put in an artificial extra cost in DDO? In my opinion, it would not be overpowered.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-27-2007, 02:23 PM
And once you add substitution, it only folows to allow the energy admixture feat. A maximized acid/cold ball for 2x (10D6acid+10D6cold)x 1.4enhancement damage. Now that's fun even if it does burn lots of sp points.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 02:33 PM
According to the description the OP posted, there is no additional cost in PnP.
1. There is a cost in PnP. Beyond the obvious cost of spending a feat, there is also the additional casting time sorcerors need to cast ANY metamagic.


Why would you go reinventing the wheel and put in an artificial extra cost in DDO?
That's the pattern established in DDO for feats with a +0 spell level adjustment. Look at Eschew Material for example.

Memnir
06-27-2007, 02:34 PM
I think you won't see this in the game for the same reason you won't find more than one acid burst (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/DDOitems/IronCleaver.jpg) weapon in the game.

The Devs don't want us to be able to shortcut monster resists in that manner.


I'd love to have that Feat in the game, it's one of my favorites in PnP. Wished I'd see it since day-one of the Beta. But - I really don't think it'll ever see the light of day in DDO.

negative
06-27-2007, 02:41 PM
1. There is a cost in PnP. Beyond the obvious cost of spending a feat, there is also the additional casting time sorcerors need to cast ANY metamagic.
Well, ok, at least for wizards there is no additional cost. And I was only stating as according to how the OP posted the description, since I couldn't verify the feat via the SRD.



That's the pattern established in DDO for feats with a +0 spell level adjustment. Look at Eschew Material for example.

And we've seen how well that has worked up to this point. Don't think I wasn't being a little facetious in my post. I was, ya know, purposefully making about point about all that.;)

Lorien_the_First_One
06-27-2007, 02:57 PM
Well, ok, at least for wizards there is no additional cost. And I was only stating as according to how the OP posted the description, since I couldn't verify the feat via the SRD.)

I never did step up to 3.5 but under the 3.0 rules this feat, like most metamagic had three imacts

1) It increased spell casting time for Sorcerers. I don't think this delay for MetaMagic is applied in DDO so this doesn't carry over.
2) It had to be chosen when spells were memorized by Wizards (ie - you had to decide if you were casting FBs or Acid Balls today, or one of each, etc). Since you don't memorize with MM in DDO, once again this doesn't apply.
3) Like pretty much all MM it increased the spell slot level (I think it was +1 level so your L3 Fireball took a L4 spell slot). In DDO terms that would mean it would cost more SPs.

DSL
06-27-2007, 03:01 PM
According to the description the OP posted, there is no additional cost in PnP. Why would you go reinventing the wheel and put in an artificial extra cost in DDO? In my opinion, it would not be overpowered.


In PnP, the use of this by wizards carries an inherent disadvantage, namely that a wizard must prepare the altered version ahead of time, which means that the spell's energy type is fixed before the encounter occurs, which can sometimes backfire. This alone is ample reason why it would be more useful in DDO, but once you factor in the various energy damage boosting effects available to DDO casters (combustion, glaciation, etc.), this feat becomes vastly more powerful, by greatly increasing the number of spells such DDO effects can apply to.

In short, without a fairly severe SP cost increase, energy substitution in DDO would be very overpowered.

Mercules
06-27-2007, 03:17 PM
There are a couple problems with this.


The animation department would need to work overtime. Every elemental spell would need several animations for the casting of it.

Burning Hands
Shocking Grasp
Niac's
Flaming Sphere
Melf's Acid Arrow
Scorching Ray
Fireball
Lightning Bolt
Acid Rain
Burning Blood
Fire Shield
Fire Trap
Ice Storm
Shout
Symbol of Flame
Firewall
Ball Lightning
Cone of Cold
Acid Fog
Chain Lightning
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Delayed Blast Fireball

So, 22 x3(excluding Sonic) is 66 new spell animations. Considering they add about 12-15 per type(arcane, divine, bard) per update where they bump up the spells I doubt they want to put a level increase on hold to add ONE feat.
Wizards would complain about Sorcerers yet again only needing 1 spell. Forget taking Fireball AND Cone of Cold, just the Acid version of the Feat and use one spell on EVERYTHING. As you level trade out your AoE damage spell for the next level up. Burning hands->Fireball->Ball Lightning->Delayed Blast Fireball. Also, imagine how broken spells like Firewall would be considered.
Balance issues concerning mobs and invulnerabilities and vulnerabilities. Already we abuse these poor mobs so they cast resistances, imagine if the General in SC had to get multiple resists on himself to survive.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 03:19 PM
In PnP, the use of this by wizards carries an inherent disadvantage, namely that a wizard must prepare the altered version ahead of time, which means that the spell's energy type is fixed before the encounter occurs, which can sometimes backfire.
No. Wizards already must prepare their energy types ahead of time, regardless of the existence of this feat.

A PnP wizard must make a choice at the beginning of the day as to how many Fireballs and Lightning Bolts he will cast. He can't just memorize both and then be equally ready to pump all his mana into nuking an unexpected red or blue dragon.

Note that you must pick the kind of Energy Substitution when you train the feat. It doesn't allow you to change Fireball into both Acidball and Lightningball unless you took Energy Substition twice. There's actually rather little difference in effectiveness there.


but once you factor in the various energy damage boosting effects available to DDO casters (combustion, glaciation, etc.), this feat becomes vastly more powerful,
Yes, that's the real problem. Except when dealing with creatures vulnerable/resistant to a certain energy, a caster could just use one enhancement chain and one Superior Combustion item for all damaging spells. However, that is nearly how it works already: most mages turn to fire for 95% of their damage needs.

The other noticable effect Energy Substitution would have on DDO gameplay is players could use a powerful no-save AOE DOT like Wall of Fire even against fire-immune creatures, such as Velah the Red Dragon. (Who notably has no way to move outside of the wall)

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 03:21 PM
The animation department would need to work overtime. Every elemental spell would need several animations for the casting of it.
Changing the color of an existing effect is a far cry from adding a new effect. It's a tiny fraction of the effort. Adding scorching ray in blue, green, and white should be very easy. Furthermore, a lot of the effects could be reused.
A cold version of Fireball would look like Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. A fire version of Niac's Cold Ray would look like Scorching Ray. A fire version of Cone of Cold would look like Burning Hands. And of course, Delayed Blast Fireball looks just like Fireball.

But also, notice that the DDO animators apparently have too much free time, and change around the effects for things like Haste and Break Enchantment for no good reason at all.

Mercules
06-27-2007, 03:56 PM
Changing the color of an existing effect is a far cry from adding a new effect. It's a tiny fraction of the effort. Adding scorching ray in blue, green, and white should be very easy. Furthermore, a lot of the effects could be reused.
A cold version of Fireball would look like Otiluke's Freezing Sphere. A fire version of Niac's Cold Ray would look like Scorching Ray. A fire version of Cone of Cold would look like Burning Hands. And of course, Delayed Blast Fireball looks just like Fireball.

But also, notice that the DDO animators apparently have too much free time, and change around the effects for things like Haste and Break Enchantment for no good reason at all.

And a cold, acid, or fire version of lightning bolt would simply be a color shifted jagged bolt? There is more than color to the effects of the spells. Look at the animations. Acid effects tend to be bubbly. Cold effects have a crystal or snowflake animation to them.

SneakThief
06-27-2007, 04:26 PM
In PnP, the use of this by wizards carries an inherent disadvantage, namely that a wizard must prepare the altered version ahead of time, which means that the spell's energy type is fixed before the encounter occurs, which can sometimes backfire. This alone is ample reason why it would be more useful in DDO, but once you factor in the various energy damage boosting effects available to DDO casters (combustion, glaciation, etc.), this feat becomes vastly more powerful, by greatly increasing the number of spells such DDO effects can apply to.
A wizard in PnP might be at a disadvantage from this, but in DDO, the wizard usually knows exactly what he will be facing and what it is immune and vunerable to, and can pull the appropriates boosting items from the bank if needed (assuming he doesnt carry them always). So in DDO how is a wizard at THAT much more (there should be SOME advantage, you did blow a feat!) of an advantage carrying an Acidball, Electricball, or Iceball instead of a Fireball?



3) Like pretty much all MM it increased the spell slot level (I think it was +1 level so your L3 Fireball took a L4 spell slot). In DDO terms that would mean it would cost more SPs.
It doesnt increase the spell slot.
SRD: "The altered spell uses a spell slot of the spell’s normal level"





So, 22 x3(excluding Sonic) is 66 new spell animations. Considering they add about 12-15 per type(arcane, divine, bard) per update where they bump up the spells I doubt they want to put a level increase on hold to add ONE feat.
Balance issues concerning mobs and invulnerabilities and vulnerabilities. Already we abuse these poor mobs so they cast resistances, imagine if the General in SC had to get multiple resists on himself to survive.
Somehow I dont think adding even 66 new objects to thier code with only a minor change in color would take anywhere as many resources as the 12-15 brand spanking new ones.

Most of the mobs now (at least at higher levels) already resist themselves. And doesnt the general already have multiple resists? Dont most bosses now?

SneakThief
06-27-2007, 04:29 PM
The other noticable effect Energy Substitution would have on DDO gameplay is players could use a powerful no-save AOE DOT like Wall of Fire even against fire-immune creatures, such as Velah the Red Dragon. (Who notably has no way to move outside of the wall)

MAN that would be SOOOOO much fun to watch!!!!!!!