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ccheath776
06-27-2007, 09:28 AM
So the reaver is lying as a cold dead corpse, Velah is equally gone room temperature, Sorjek has died so many times people are calling him elvis, The titan is making a nice trashcan in your corner, and the Demon queen has been spaided.

So what is everyones theory on the next raid flagging?
What are some ideas for it?
Excluding LOTD 3 since we already know that one.

To give you an idea of what is available now let me post what the raid flaggins are currently.

Tempest Spine - None, just show up.
Velah - Do von 1 - 4 every time.
Twilight Forge - Do HIPS, Ghola fan, Shrieking minds. Done never have to do that again.
Demon queen - Collect three articles every time. Additional pieces can be collect for future flagging.
Stormreaver - Collect 20 relics of each, do 6 man reaver. Done. Never have to flag again.

I would like to have a Raid that is like tempest where you just show up. But what do you think the next major flagging will be?

I hope they keep the flag once, never have to flag again mentality. Makes it less of a drag.
What do you all think?

Gol
06-27-2007, 09:35 AM
Unfortunately, I'm guessing the next raid will be the conclusion of the LotD series. Despite the overwhelmingly negative opinion of Necropolis as a whole, Turbine is plowing ahead with content that, simply put, is not fun.

What is now 8 or 9 quests (?) that already have "do it once on elite for favor and never again" status is going to become a good many more I think, including a Raid. The only problem with that is they might actually put some Vault of Night quality raid loot in there so people make themselves do the content (as opposed to Titan or DQ loot which people seem to be ok with not having).

Riot
06-27-2007, 10:21 AM
Twilight Forge has the Best flagging mechanic.
Run the scenario, and then your flagged for the final assault in two parts.
It's reasonable. And still has challenge to it, with some time investment.

Demon Queen flaggin is freaking absurd. This should be fixed so that only part 4 is required and the collection of the 3 items is no longer required, Except ONCE!
OR,
Once you've compelted part 4 you never have to reflag again.
But change the DQ raid so that the hallway to the Demon Queen herself requires mandatory combat and is alot longer and harder.
This'll prevent those soloing and duoing her.

VoN flagging is just annoying. It's easy, but it's just redundant and annoying.
You shouldn't have to repeat VoN 1-4. But leave VoN 5 and 6 as is.

Stormreaver was just barely "too much".
Had the relics been limited to 10 each, OR
better yet, 1 relic from each of the Gianthold quests, then it woulda been fine.
Other than that, I'd rather see the Dragons in Gianthold Tor as a part of the Reaver raid. Sorta like a preraid to the actual raid.
As it stands now, the Reaver raid is too short.

Temepest Spine doesn't really qualify since there's no Glyph chest at the end, so it's fine as is.

================================================== =
Future raids in DDO should follow the Template laid out by Twilight Forge.

1 ) Several Flagging Quests you only have to do once.

2 ) Then a Raid Quests which leads up to a final showdown.

3 ) Then a Showdown which cannot be Re-Entered, without repeating the Raid Quest.

That's it... it works, it's acceptable, and it's got enough time investment in it.

Cowdenicus
06-27-2007, 10:29 AM
actually, i think stormreaver has the best flagging mechanic I have seen yet. Just my opine of course.

Grenfell
06-27-2007, 11:02 AM
Other than that, I'd rather see the Dragons in Gianthold Tor as a part of the Reaver raid. Sorta like a preraid to the actual raid.
As it stands now, the Reaver raid is too short.

QFT.

I really think the SR raid is... well... not a raid. I have only run this as a full 12 man raid once. Ever since, it's 5 man or maybe 6 man "raids".

Instead of the silly balls and air elementals (which isn't fun, just frustrating), this raid could be insanely cool if the Dragons were involved directly in it.

What I'd like to see - (a bit of a threadjack here, and I apologize)

The pre-raid is to kill the three named Giants to recover keys, all 3 of which are needed to open the Stormreaver's Inner Sanctum. The Gatekeeper fight happens AFTER the Giants are killed. Giants have no dragon with them, but just a ton of guards from their various legions. 4-5 chests, a direct and fun quest, VON-5 style, that can be run with a full raid group. (Just have a LOT more monsters). No silly puzzles, no lasers -- just heavy duty beats vs. a wide assortment of foes.

The raid then is simply the large room with the Stormreaver AND the 3 dragons at once, with teleporters (like in the preraid) spawning more giants, gnolls, orcs, whatever constantly. Have a few shrines in side rooms that have to be cleared/unlocked/whatever. The warded chest plus the three dragon chests that will spawn scales and unique dragon items.

Now that would be exhilarating if done right.

/gren

Yaga_Nub
06-27-2007, 11:09 AM
......

Now that would be exhilarating if done right.

/gren

That's where your suggestion fails. It wouldn't be done right.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 01:38 PM
So what is everyones theory on the next raid flagging?
What are some ideas for it?
I cannot predict what Turbine will do, but what they should do is make it like Demon Queen, with the extra bonus that multiple copies of the same flagging item stack in your inventory.


I hope they keep the flag once, never have to flag again mentality. Makes it less of a drag.
What do you all think?
If you think it's "a drag" to play DDO quests, then why do you even play DDO?

Requiring quests to get into the raid is the same as adding content onto the front-end of the raid itself, except it gives you the added flexibility to do the content in different sessions, instead of all in one go.

Maybe you'd be happier if you flag for the raid once, and then every 3 days a random raid loot shows up in your mailbox.

Riot
06-27-2007, 01:51 PM
Requiring quests to get into the raid is the same as adding content onto the front-end of the raid itself, except it gives you the added flexibility to do the content in different sessions, instead of all in one go.

Devil advocate.

I'd rather do the front end raid every time, that way I knock it out all at once.
Being in a guild it's easier for 12 to run a raid than to try to get 6 to run 4 quests, which they may or may not need over 1 sitting or multiple sittings.

Here's the ironic part though... If you LOVE running the 4 precursor quests so much, what we suggest WON'T STOP YOU!!!

Ta da!! magic!!
We've not ruined your fun one way or another. Knock yourself out.

Me personally, running Raiyum, Offerring, Chains, and DQ4 for the 100th time is NOT FUN.

Running T-Forge to get to Titan still is.

let me put it another way,
Running VoN 1-4 is 45 minutes of my life I want back.
Running VoN 5 to get to Velah still is fun.


Maybe you'd be happier if you flag for the raid once, and then every 3 days a random raid loot shows up in your mailbox.
Technically we're talking about knocking out 4 Quests from DQ flag.
So all those chest would be gone from our method.

That makes you the loot *****, not us. We'd gladly forgo the loot.
If you're running DQ every 3 days, then you'd be pulling more loot fromt he preflags than us. Again, Knock yerself out.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 01:56 PM
Being in a guild it's easier for 12 to run a raid than to try to get 6 to run 4 quests, which they may or may not need over 1 sitting or multiple sittings.
The idea of bringing 12 people to any raid in DDO is a joke, right?


Being in a guild it's easier for 12 to run a raid than to try to get 6 to run 4 quests, which they may or may not need over 1 sitting or multiple sittings.
Pay attention, and you'll see that using the Demon Queen method there is no such thing as "not needing" the credit. You can store up extra credit from the requirements- no wasted runs.


Here's the ironic part though... If you LOVE running the 4 precursor quests so much, what we suggest WON'T STOP YOU!!!
By that logic, if you love running the raids so much, then selling all the raid loot for 1 pp at a vendor in the market won't stop you either.

RPG gameplay is about doing quests to get rewards.

How'd you like it if you could run the raid without flagging, but nobody got any loot?

Riot
06-27-2007, 02:08 PM
The idea of bringing 12 people to any raid in DDO is a joke, right?
Right, ergo see my above notation about making these a bit harder. Especially DQ and SR.


and you'll see that using the Demon Queen method there is no such thing as "not needing" the credit. You can store up extra credit from the requirements- no wasted runs.
When you don't need anything fromt he DQ raid... Yes there is... and people will be reluctant to join a PuG just for the flag. Especially those is smaller guilds who don't raid.

Dude I have so many blood bowl banked from when it was broken so I never have to run offering of blood again. it's not funny. I understand the system.


By that logic, if you love running the raids so much, then selling all the raid loot for 1 pp at a vendor in the market won't stop you either.

Time is money... live in the real world.


RPG gameplay is about doing quests to get rewards.
Really? Then i expect to see you mail away all your gear today.
If you don't I call "hypocrite."


How'd you like it if you could run the raid without flagging, but nobody got any loot?
I didn't advocate cutting the quests out.. Just the repetition of certain quests.
And by "any loot" do you mean like TS?
Be serious, if there's No reward for Risk, why are we playing?
And dont' say "to make friends."
If you need a computer and anonymity to make friends then your issues run alot deeper than digital raiding.

For me, it's a game, Risk should = Reward.

As it is now I should get free loot for suffering through DQ flagging alone.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 02:36 PM
Really? Then i expect to see you mail away all your gear today.
If you don't I call "hypocrite."
Uh, no. That is the opposite of what I just said. I explicitly said that gear IS important to DDO players.


Be serious, if there's No reward for Risk, why are we playing?
As I already explained, there IS reward for risk, and yes that IS why we're playing.

However, people in threads like this are asking for the risk to be removed. They want to get the raid loot by doing less work to get there.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 02:57 PM
For me, it's a game, Risk should = Reward.

As it is now I should get free loot for suffering through DQ flagging alone.
You DO. Flagging for Demon Queen is what allows you a chance at named loot from the Demon Queen.

It's a simple concept, but apparently I need to explain it more fully.

Right now, to get a chance at Dragon Loot or Laliat Loot, you need to run VON1-5 or Rayium+Offering+Chains for each attempt. That means it's 6 total quests for dragon loot, or 5 total quests for Laliat loot.

People who are asking for the re-flagging to be removed want it to be reduced to 2 quests for dragon loot, and 1 or 2 quests for Laliat loot. They want the SAME loot for LESS effort and LESS risk.

DDO already has a shortage of content. Removing reflagging is essentially removing content, because it sends some quests into a category of "run it one for credit, once for elite favor, and then never again".

Riot
06-27-2007, 02:59 PM
Your reading comprehension is subzero.
You're the one who quoted me, when I said the Pre-raid needs to be longer in the first place. Pot meet kettle.

If you're going to pick one line from a person, make sure to read their entire position first.

I'm all for making raids harder.
It's the silly flagging runs that are lame. they aren't "hard", they just waste time.

If your idea of a challenge is a treadmill, that's one thing.
I'd prefer to actually be challenged.

Riot
06-27-2007, 03:04 PM
You DO. Flagging for Demon Queen is what allows you a chance at named loot from the Demon Queen.

It's a simple concept, but apparently I need to explain it more fully.

No apparently you need to pull yer head out of the sand.
This is about challenge and waste of time.

Stop trying to justify a waste of time.


Right now, to get a chance at Dragon Loot or Laliat Loot, you need to run VON1-5 or Rayium+Offering+Chains for each attempt. That means it's 6 total quests for dragon loot, or 5 total quests for Laliat loot.

People who are asking for the re-flagging to be removed want it to be reduced to 2 quests for dragon loot, and 1 or 2 quests for Laliat loot. They want the SAME loot for LESS effort and LESS risk.

NOT ALL PEOPLE.... In your rush for an arguement you picked someone who doesn't want short and simple. pay attention next time.

I'm fine with 4 hours raids. As long as they are raids, and NOT flagging quests.
At least NOT every single time. Once is fine. But DQ flagging is ridiculous.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 03:09 PM
I'm all for making raids harder.
It's the silly flagging runs that are lame. they aren't "hard", they just waste time.
Making raids harder is not what was proposed. Indeed, completing VON3 is still harder for many players than VON5 or VON6.

If you want to talk about something that's a silly waste of time, look at the VON6 raid itself. For all but 1 or 2 players, it's generally just a 15 minute AFK waiting around to roll for loot.

For many players, Titan and Laliat are only a little better. Two people do the raid, and the others stand there and try not to get in the way.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 03:12 PM
I'm fine with 4 hours raids. As long as they are raids, and NOT flagging quests.
Once again, four hour raids is NOT what was proposed here. And 4-hour raids would be a horrible idea for several obvious reasons.

Flagging-quests is a way to extend the amount of time required to beat a raid, but not force players to do it all in one marathon session.

Riot
06-27-2007, 03:26 PM
Who says it's not proposed?
I'm proposing it!

1 ) make flagging quests only once.

2 ) Make pre-raids harder/longer/worth a darn. (if TIme is what they want spent, have it spent here)

3 ) Improved Quest Finales. Difficulty for starters.

4 ) Have raids be a part of the Flagging system.
(ie: complete one raid to move to the next)

Tanka
06-27-2007, 03:29 PM
but not force players to do it all in one marathon session.
OK, then they should take VoN1-4 off the timer so you can repeat them and be raid-ready as soon as your timer is up.

That would help exponentially.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 03:34 PM
OK, then they should take VoN1-4 off the timer so you can repeat them and be raid-ready as soon as your timer is up.
Yes, they should. That's the Demon Queen system.