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View Full Version : Create Undead is a sad dissapointment ((along with all the other summons imo))



Namelessone
06-26-2007, 10:55 PM
I first wanted to say that I built my Necromancer for two purposes Control and Creation of Undead.

When my character hit lv. 11 I was very excited to try out my new spell Create Undead. So I went to a tavern, memorized the spell and picked up spell components and headed to water works.

The spell costs 35 spell points and has a cool down of 600 seconds (10 minutes) and the spell component Black Onyx (The spell is a little different than the phb Create Undead :: d20srd.org (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/createUndead.htm) )

(also keep in mind that a level 9 summon monster will have a cool down of 9 minuets)

So I enter the dungeon and make my way north to the first two kobolds and cast the spell creating a mummy.

The mummy was a cr 5 ((I am guessing ported straight out of the MM))

The Mummy defeated the Kobolds, and then 48 seconds into the spell broke free and attacked me. . .

This is where I am annoyed with the spell! :mad:

First they get a save to break my control every 3d12 + 12 seconds (thats a max of 36 seconds of the initial control and 12 seconds after)

My characters 6th Level Spell DC is 29. What that means (If Turbine buffed up the mummys saves then that would suck) is that the CR 5 mummy should have a will save of 8.

That means the mummy would have to roll a 20 to break the save. . .
(I tested this a couple times having to wait 10 min per cast and the outcome was about the same each time. I also tested it on gouls and ghasts which had about the same durations)

So I am spending 35 spell points and 2,658 gold pieces (roughly 265 gold pieces per cast) to cast this spell.

Now comes the math. . .
(for these numbers I used a max roll of 3 on the initial timer)

Shortest Duration would be 36 + 12 (the mummy's roll saved on the first chance would be 48 seconds).

Medium duration would be 36 seconds + 120 seconds (rolled a 20 on the mummy's tenth save)) for a total of 156 seconds (or 2 minuets 36 seconds)

A roll of 20 on his 20th save would put the spell duration at 36 + 240 = 276 (4 minuets 36 seconds)

What this shows is the spell cool down and the cost for the components and sp are unbalanced and imo totally a waste of time. Even if you are lucky and the mummy does not save for four min. that still leaves the 6 min left for the cool down. This spell needs major work and a look at what can be done to make it worth using.

jaitee
06-26-2007, 11:23 PM
when i 1st used it i was excited, after finding out i would cast and then nothing would appear, of that they couldnt do anything, and became useless fast i was kinda sadden too

GeneralDiomedes
06-26-2007, 11:27 PM
I think the thing is to cast greater heroism on yourself for fear immunity, and then control undead (the high level version) on the mummy - if not right away then when it breaks. The mummy's power is in Despair, not melee if i'm not mistaken.

If you could keep that thing alive for like 10 minutes and it followed you everywhere .. I wager that would be some pretty nice bang for your mana.

But then again I've never seen anyone cast it so it must be too annoying for a game where you play with total strangers over voice chat.

Lithic
06-26-2007, 11:45 PM
I think the thing is to cast greater heroism on yourself for fear immunity, and then control undead (the high level version) on the mummy - if not right away then when it breaks. The mummy's power is in Despair, not melee if i'm not mistaken.

If you could keep that thing alive for like 10 minutes and it followed you everywhere .. I wager that would be some pretty nice bang for your mana.

I got excited about this spell when I realized the above. Then I tried it in the threnal outside area. Sure the mummy despaired the first giant it was killed. Then the second giant was feared, but the 3rd made his save. My poor mummy was splattered under a giant's foot in no time.

Thats when I decided to destroy the rest of my components, and never again mem that spell. IF you want pets, charm monster/dominate person is the way to go.

Ghoste
06-27-2007, 01:03 AM
Great spell for soloing shrieking mines. Boss ward does not include immunity to mummy rot,and mummies are immune to psionics. Once the squid is alonein hos room, put the mummy in and be on your way.

LIMBUS
06-27-2007, 08:23 AM
All summons are pathetic, Ive been saying this for a while. I feel sorry for the Druids when they come out, animal companions are even more pathetic, I can see it now...


Woot!!!!! Cast a level 5 Bear in a level 16 dungeon, Im rockin now, sheesh give me a break Turbine.

CSFurious
06-27-2007, 08:30 AM
not to hijack the thread but i would submit that many of the spells in this game are worthless, e.g., the whole line of level 5 spells like mass bull's, etc., by that level any good player has a +4 item for all of those stats or self-buffs

instead of adding spells, the devs need to make the ones we have better or just get rid of some because in their current form they are quite pathetic

Namelessone
06-27-2007, 07:02 PM
Aye, I remember once back during mod two. I went into the bringing the light quest with my lv 10 cleric. I quickly cast Summon Monster 5, and watched the Cr2 human guards kick the ever loving a out of my earth elemental. . . That was the day I swore off summons.

What a true disappointment. . . :(

Ghoste
06-27-2007, 07:12 PM
Here's another great use for create undead:

In Von 5, if you're one of the guys that ends up on a platform pulling levers, there are a few spells you can cast to entertain yourself at the other lever pullers expense:
-cast solid fog on the other platform.
-hypnotic pattern
-grease
-mummy

The first three will just moderately irritate the guy over on the other platform, but the mummy will really **** him off when it breaks out of your control.:eek:

dndnerd
06-28-2007, 01:25 AM
When i got to be high enough lvl i went and bought about 20 scrolls of it and well you can guss what i did... i went into a wilderness area and made 80 undead. at first it was awsome they killed everything in sight but then in about 1 min came the horrable supprise! needless to say i was dead.

HorridForm
06-28-2007, 02:02 AM
It was fun for a while. An intresting tactic for the spell is to create the mummy off a scroll at the start of an instance and then when it uncharms due to the low DC spell check Command it as an ally with your high DC spell and then you can run around with a free fear pet. I think you can even do this with mutiple mummies ^^

Unfortunately the game spell DC is overpowered. When a spell caster can get a 20 base stat, aquire a +2 tome easily, duel spec in death magic, and then find extra DC equipment there's no reason to use much else. I really wish that they would make the Hard/Elite setting much more difficult. It was kinda sad to see mod 4 go live and know that you could run all the Elite content with minimum difficulty.

I mean what do we have to look forward to when casters can spam mass death magic spells lol

DKerrigan
06-28-2007, 08:42 AM
I mean what do we have to look forward to when casters can spam mass death magic spells lol

My guess will be a lot of complaining because the spells are implemented with unreasonable HP and HD caps and are regularly resisted by mobs with astronomical mob saves...but that's just my guess...

Namelessone
06-28-2007, 06:09 PM
I never thought of the using scrolls for the spell.

I wouldn't use scrolls though, My wizard Necromancer has the two feats to boost the dc's on necromancy spells and a necromanct focus item as well as a 30 int. atm (hence the 29 dc for the save). But the mummy breaks even that without any effort.

And the other summons? Is that why they suck along with create undead? because people would spam using them with scrolls?
If that is the reason then ***? why even have the spells if all they are going to be are useless non-effective creatures that you summon for cannon fodder?

Emili
06-28-2007, 07:21 PM
reason being I believe is because the summon spells seem to stay close in line with PnP... but the mob of course is not.

Qwanderer
06-28-2007, 07:25 PM
It's my experience that summon spells or other kinds of spells that create pets even in PnP arn't overly powerful. Usually when you cast a spell of the appropriate level to your character level you generally create a distraction, a creature to take some damage for you while your group capitalizes on the extra advantage. Never do you usually see the summoned creature begin to dominate the combat.

Summons in DDO are about the same. Summons draw aggro for a short time and make things slightly easier for the caster who summoned them. Only realy big problem I have with these spells are the horrid cooldown timers. I really don't see why having a dozen low HD creatures around makes much difference in game balance, but I suppose it could make soloing quests easier if a summoner could hide behind a small army of minions.

I think it would be awesome if summons in DDO worked very much similar to the way they do in PnP D&D. Normal cooldowns and short durations. In PnP summons typically only last 1 round a level. So having a summon creature last only 6 seconds at first level might seem lame, but at higher levels you could have them around for a minute or so, which wouldn't seem horrible if you extended them and cast about 4 or 5 at once.