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dragonruler
06-26-2007, 01:50 PM
I strongly believe that the devs should increase the clerics spell points. i mean being a cleric is hard when your having to spend a ton of money on wands because you dont have enough spell points to heal throughout a quest. I mean on my lvl 5 clr that i recently made, I have given her every possible item to increase her spell points but its still not enough to last through a quest. i went through almost 15 cure mod wands because her spell points run out so fast. When i made her i gave her the highest possible wisdom so as to get more sp. Also i believe there should be a race that gives a +2 to wisdom just like how other races give a +2 to other stats. That would make things a little better for when you go to make a cleric.

Impaqt
06-26-2007, 01:59 PM
SpellPoints are fine.. being L5, you have a long way to go in learning your cleric... What spells to cast when... If all your doing is sitting inthe back waiting for people to take damage.. Then yes.. You will run out of Spell Points Fast....

QUick Tips.....

No One Needs a Full red bar.....

DOnt randomly throw out Buffs.... (This aplies more at higher levels) Many People have Their own resists and situational Clickies... Ask people what the Need

Crowd Control Crowd Control and Crowd Control.... Clerics have some nicew CC spells.. Use them to mitigate damage.... One Hold Person can save several Cure Mods...

dragonruler
06-26-2007, 02:06 PM
what you said is true but even my lvl 9 clr has difficulties sometimes with sp especially quests where there are few shrines to regain mana back. i, and others that i have talked with, feel that the clr's have the most difficult time. For instance my lvl 14 wiz has 1300 sp but my friends clr has only like 950 and he did everything to get as much sp as possible too.

Impaqt
06-26-2007, 02:07 PM
what you said is true but even my lvl 9 clr has difficulties sometimes with sp especially quests where there are few shrines to regain mana back. i, and others that i have talked with, feel that the clr's have the most difficult time. For instance my lvl 14 wiz has 1300 sp but my friends clr has only like 950 and he did everything to get as much sp as possible too.
THen he absolutely did not do "Everything"At Level 14 My main cleric sits at 1,270 Spell Points ANd only has a 30 Wisdom and Pop X.

Clerics and Wizards use the exact same Spell point table now....

TFPAQ
06-26-2007, 02:11 PM
I agree with the previous poster. I've run clerics since beta and with the last mod change to sp for clerics I'm hard pressed to say we need more.

Are you running with a group that is Zerg'n through the quest? If so, there aren't enough spell points in the world to keep up.

If you are running with a guild or a good group that follows good quest protocol (everyone will define "good" differently), you should have ample spell points.

If you are playing your cleric as a "healbot", you will be broke and broken hearted. As a previous poster noted, you have some nice cc that will help the group significantly more than just healing.

TFPAQ
06-26-2007, 02:12 PM
If you can convince Turbine to throw a few more our way, I'll take them happily!!!!!

Lorien_the_First_One
06-26-2007, 02:43 PM
Since the last spell point increase our clerics & wizards have been on the same SP path. That is as per the PnP SP varient and normally I like to stick with the PnP rules to keep this as close to D&D as possible.

However...

I have a L14 cleric and most times the SP is enough. Would it be more fun to have more...yup. Would it be really really really helpful sometimes to have more, especally in bad pugs? yup. The difference between us and PnP is that there were just never be a 500 HP L14 char in D&D. That's INSANE. Our healing therefore doesn't go as far as it should. The enhancements went a long way to address that problem, but still not far enough.

Would I take some extra SP? sure.

But maybe what would more sense is beefing up the enhancements a bit so that our bonuses on healing would be more in keeping with the bonuses in HP that our dwarven barbarians are getting. (no I don't mean more higher level ones, we need more healing kick at each level we have now).

GoldyGopher
06-26-2007, 02:43 PM
Rule Number 1 as a healer, If someone expects you to spam heal them don't. Case in point, doing WW last night, My Battle Bard, Three Barbarians, a Ranger and a Sorc, halfway through part 1 I stopped healing one of the three barbarians, when asked why, cause I only got 154 Magic Points, and casting 15 heals on you doesn't help me get through the adventure. After he died once he got the idea.

Rule Number 2 as a healer you don't have to be broke, have a budget and stick to it. My 14th Level Cleric rarely runs out of SP and has an occasional wand for Backups.

Rule Number 3 everyone has the ability to buff themselves. Great Players very rarely need more than a buff or two. And this goes for low levels as well as high level.

Rule Number 4 players die it not your fault.

Jeff

joker965
06-26-2007, 02:52 PM
First, I have like 1200+ SP as a level 14 cleric. It is usually enough unless I get a little crazy and start killing everything in sight.

Second, I don't really care what costs what at this point. If I'm in a party I do my cleric thing and try to keep everyone alive no matter what. If I'm in a group that is sucking 50 heal scrolls out of my pocket evey quest then I might get a new group. If they are a fun group I'll stay anyway. From my experience in the end quests it is usually the wiz/sorc that is sitting with 10% spell points 5 minutes into the quest because managing SP for them is not seen as life and death for the party.

narizue
06-26-2007, 03:02 PM
Non clerics need to come to parties prepared.

There are certain staples that all characters should have with them, these include Healing Pots, Lesser Restoration Pots, Blindness Removal Pots, Remove Curse Pots, Remove Disease Pots, and Neutralize Poison Pots. Clickies of the same effect work just fine too.

In addition to this characters should attempt to aqquire preventative items such as blindness ward, poisonproof and disease immunity are musts after about level 7-8.

Beyond that try to hunt down an elemental resistance item for at least one or two elements if you can't buff yourself.

If players arrive at the quest with the right equipement, none of which is uber, then the cleric has plenty of spell points. As long as the party plays at the pace that the cleric can heal. If they don't arrive at the quest properly equiped, they had better pony up some donations, cause wands are not that cheap.

Another tactic to assist with clerical mana is to have everyone who is not the cleric do as much of the buffing as possible. Rangers have elemental resists as a level one spell. Let them handle those. Pallies and rangers can both use wands, as can bards and anyone who has decent UMD. Let everyone share in the post fight patch up.

tihocan
06-26-2007, 03:03 PM
So everyone forgot they just increased the clerics' SPs significantly?

llevenbaxx
06-26-2007, 03:16 PM
what you said is true but even my lvl 9 clr has difficulties sometimes with sp especially quests where there are few shrines to regain mana back. i, and others that i have talked with, feel that the clr's have the most difficult time. For instance my lvl 14 wiz has 1300 sp but my friends clr has only like 950 and he did everything to get as much sp as possible too.

If you think you are a cast happy cleric, you can do some very simple things to help deal with that. From taking mental toughness and Imp MT for more sp to taking spell focus and spell penetration to help make sure you are not wasting many sps by having to double cast. My clr sits at 1298 with a 32 wiz and only a PoP6. It was a must I get as many sp as possible as I know I like to be more proactive in my "healing".;)

Now if only they allowed clerics the improved metamagic enhancements Id be all set.

Zenako
06-26-2007, 03:23 PM
So everyone forgot they just increased the clerics' SPs significantly?

Umm nope.

Current SP are perfectly adequate. More than enough for most quests unless stupid is ruling the day. Enable stupid and you will breed more stupid. Curtail stupid and it dies from the gene pool.

I cannot think of any quest run by a 5th level where it would even be possible to run through 15 wands of anything, let alone more than 1 wand:eek:

if you really ran thru 15 wands (lets see that 50 charges/wand for about the equalvalent of 750 mana worth of healing spells per wand, that would mean to support the "play style of the group you were in" would require over 10,000 spell points for a level 5 cleric.....:confused: :confused: :confused:

We got a problem here....or some severe exageration....

Vi'Aed
06-26-2007, 03:30 PM
There is a lot of response here which is very good along the line of Clerics should expect some mana management support form the rest of the party in terms of pots, clickies, and buffs from other party members. In addition other heal capable party members (even via wands) should pitch in. That is all very true.

Personally I would kinda like to see the problem approached from the other end. I would love to see heal/cure serious/cure critical/raise dead scrolls/wands non-buyable. There is only so much expected from a cure moderate wand. The problem, as I see it, isn't too few spell point, it is unreasonable expectations by a segment of the population.

Personally, even when I'm not playing a cleric, it annoys the bejeezus out of me to see the two handed fighting barbarians using clerics as extended hp pools.

Along that line, I would be very interested in some sort of temporary debuff type thing happen when a character absorbs a lot of healing. An exhaustion sort of thing or a 10 second helplessness. Something to take the onus off the healer and put it on the idiot zerger where it belongs.

narizue
06-26-2007, 03:32 PM
I know I like to be more proactive in my "healing".;)

I totally agree.
At level 1 I was throwing out Command on tough low will save mobs(ogres).
At level 3 it was Command, Hold Person and Soundburst
At level 5 it was Command, Hold Person, Sound Burst as well as party buffs of Magic Circle Against Evil and/or Mass Aid
At level 7 I add Recitation to the mix.
At level 9 its all about Greater Command as crowd control, and other buffs as needed.
At level 11 Cometfall, Blade Barrier, Symbol of Fear, Symbol of Persuasion, Banishment, all as needed.
At level 13 we add in Destruction, Mass Spell Resistance etc.

I am a huge proponent of preventative action. With proper buffs and crowd control I can avoid spending too much mana on healing and concentrate on putting the battle back into my cleric. ;)

Zenako
06-26-2007, 03:35 PM
Oh and don't forget the Divine Enhancements like Divine Healing which uses turn attempts to power. My cleric has 10 turns and with DHIII doing about 90 points of healing a pop, that can account for a lot of healing at any level of quest.


Facing Giants....Greater Command...facing groveling giants begging to be pounded to pulp....

Mercules
06-26-2007, 03:39 PM
what you said is true but even my lvl 9 clr has difficulties sometimes with sp especially quests where there are few shrines to regain mana back. i, and others that i have talked with, feel that the clr's have the most difficult time. For instance my lvl 14 wiz has 1300 sp but my friends clr has only like 950 and he did everything to get as much sp as possible too.

Level 14 Clr with 950? My level 13 has about 1K+. I don't think he did -everything- possible.

flash145
06-26-2007, 03:41 PM
Those who play on Khyber know who I am. For those that don't, I am not bragging when I attest to having ~1400 sp on each of my clerics. This is with only pearls of power 10. For 95% of the missions I have run since I started playing in Alpha, I have never had issues with spell points. With the recent increase, I can boost the 95% number even higher.
If you are having issues keeping up healing on your party, its the people you are running with that are at fault. Yes clerics have nice crowd control, but sorcs and wizards have even better ones. And, they have far more spell points to utilize and faster cast times on CC.
Lastly, I will not speak for other clerics or other servers however; I have asked groups that drain my resources severly to pitch in on costs. 5-10 heal scrolls and a few charges of wand is easily recoverable. 15 wands is a serious cost investement, and the party should defray that cost. Dumping the burden on you should make you rethink running with these people again.

Grivnar
06-26-2007, 03:41 PM
I have to agree with most of the above people, I have a 25 wisdom and I still blow out about 1278 Spell points on Modelpee. If your blowing through that many wands at low level your setting a bad precedent for yourself.

JosephKell
06-26-2007, 03:47 PM
Healing isn't efficient. From my experience (haven't done endgame stuff yet), under most circumstances, PCs that are regularly taking rediculous amounts of damage messed up.

But in all cases, damage prevention is fastly superior to damage repair. Greater Command puts a mob of mobs on their butts. Energy Resistance can neuter some quests (hello, f***ing Fire Caves should be a huge red light saying, "PREPARE FIRE RESISTANCE"). Mass Aid is Temp HP (pre-healing). Clerics can even team with Paladins to both Mass Aid AND Virtue the party (they stack!).

The problem isn't Cleric Spell Points it is PUGs.

Lately, I've been using a new measuring stick for PUGgers.

0. You get an invite to a group without being sent a tell first. Blind Invites are a sign of a HORRIBLE group. I have never had a Blind Tell work out for the best, not even on the simplist quests.

1. If they are in a guild, and no other guildies are in the group, they are bad.
1b. If they are in a guild and invite you to a guild without talking with or playing with you first, they are worse.

2. If they don't use complete sentences, they are bad. Now this doesn't necessarily apply to people that don't speak English or are ESL (Who tend to have BETTER written English), but when someone leaves out nouns/pronouns, verbs, etc. They should be avoided. I've played with non-english speakers and it has been fine. They understand requests for spell preparations and have even been able to share Fire Arrows.

3. They are playing a Cleric or Wizard and they never prepare Energy Resistance.
3b. They prepare Prot Energy when you specificially ask for Energy Resistance.

-JK

Elfvyra
06-26-2007, 04:03 PM
Clerics just got an increase, and don't really need more. If you find you don't have enough mana, it's either your fault due to a bad build, poor mana management, etc. Or it's the party's fault, which is also partly your fault. If your party keeps making bad decisions, like zerging through traps, splitting up or any number of other things a bad party can do, sit them down and lay out some rules...

1) I am not your personal buffbot. If there's is something you want that I haven't already cast, ask. I'll do my best to decide on whether or not it's something you need. And if it's something you can/should get from a potion, you obviously don't need it because you didn't buy it.

2) I will do my best to keep you alive and healthy during fights IF you don't run out of range, around corners, behind pillars, etc. I fully expect you to top yourself off, remove your curse, drink minor restoration potions, etc. between fights.

3) I can't, and won't, Heal Stupidity. If I ask you to stop zerging, switch to a shield or change your tactics because I'm using most of my mana on you, please listen. You won't be the first, or last character that I've carried through a dungeon in my backpack.

Cowdenicus
06-26-2007, 04:14 PM
Your blue bar = my red bar /roar.

Mercules
06-26-2007, 04:21 PM
Your blue bar = my red bar /roar.

I thought my blue bar was directly inverse to the number of icons at the top right of your screen? :)

Kethir
06-26-2007, 04:39 PM
I am a huge proponent of preventative action.
I agree, but you neglected destruction as the best preventative action.
In addition, I like greater command and cometfall.

Spam destruction, greater command and cometfall in a quest, and there's really no need to heal all that much. Especially if the arcane(s) are helping out with fod and pk, mass hold, or web.

Corran99
06-26-2007, 04:55 PM
Here is a few things I do to to maximise my SP.

Divine healing (enhancement): takes a turn undead attempt and heals x amount of damage over 30 sec. great to use between fights on fighters.

Soundburst (spell): stops most mobs in a area in their tracks for a few seconds as well as does 1d8 damage to them

Command (spell): takes a single mob out of action for longer than soundbust.

Mass aid (spell): much more cost effective than aid

Using the stuff above extends my SP pool enough that I have barly gone through many wands/scrolls.

Madmardigan
06-26-2007, 04:58 PM
key to not using too much mana as a cleric is simple, Run with competent people who know how to control agro. Don't pug.

narizue
06-26-2007, 05:37 PM
key to not using too much mana as a cleric is simple, Run with competent people who know how to control agro. Don't pug.

ROFLMAO.

QFT.

Every horror story I have with my cleric starts with "I was in this PUG..."

ebt-dnd
06-26-2007, 05:43 PM
key to not using too much mana as a cleric is simple, Run with competent people who know how to control agro. Don't pug.

I second that. Get in with a good guild and don't run PUGs. Or don't run a cleric. I pretty much only run my cleric with guildies. It's less painful now that we got the spellpoints we lost in the enhancement update, but it's still no fun with wands that don't heal.

Incidentally, for those that run with people with red bars. No heavy fortitude = 1 shots on the higher levels if you aren't careful. 1 shots = they lose all the buffs you put at them.

Mercules
06-26-2007, 06:05 PM
ROFLMAO.

QFT.

Every horror story I have with my cleric starts with "I was in this PUG..."

Every horror story I have with any character starts with, "I was in this PuG..." I just have MORE of them for my Cleric. Bad PuG when you are anything else tends to be a big *sigh*. Bad PuG as a Cleric tends to require bottles and little pills.

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 06:07 PM
Every horror story I have with my cleric starts with "I was in this PUG...""This one time... at PUG camp..." :D

Mercules
06-26-2007, 06:09 PM
"This one time... at PUG camp..." :D

/announcervoice on
"In a PuG, where two tactical styles collide, a young Cleric finds himself drawn to the edge of insanity."
/announcervoice off

Netah
06-26-2007, 07:19 PM
"This one time... at PUG camp..." :D

I was rescued from that camp...

Thanks for the coffee!

EightyFour
06-26-2007, 07:35 PM
Clerics could use extra spell points, it would make things easier, but with the state of things your going to buy more heal scrolls and cure wands and other such items if you are a healing cleric.

It's gong to cost a lot, so you have to decide, are these some people that I like and I want to continue on with them to get at whatever it is that I'm after.

Or would you rather just not play your cleric.

I keep my cleric locked up most of the time to keep cost down. But every now and again I bring him out because I like to play him.

But for the most part I keep him away from everyone else.

joracie
06-26-2007, 07:58 PM
Damn dude thats alota wands. I may close attention I have used 6 cure mod wands and 7 cure light wands and I'm level four right now. I pay VERY close attention to how evreything is going, I know what spells I'm gona cast when before we get in to a fight, and I spread the cool down timers around CLW CMW and wands. I also work very very hard not to run out of a mana and be forced into nonstop wanding. I have only run out of mana ONCE! Now this is gona change I know but you seem to be going through alot! And belive me I've had some bad people to heal like the WF THW ranger with no ac and little health.

Riorik
06-26-2007, 09:39 PM
what you said is true but even my lvl 9 clr has difficulties sometimes with sp especially quests where there are few shrines to regain mana back. i, and others that i have talked with, feel that the clr's have the most difficult time. For instance my lvl 14 wiz has 1300 sp but my friends clr has only like 950 and he did everything to get as much sp as possible too.

I'd say the same thing as others - my Cleric14 sits at 1247 spell points.
These days, I'm using wands just to clear out some inventory without simply throwing them away.

EightyFour
06-27-2007, 12:29 AM
I buy about 3 Cure serious wands and about 15 heal scrolls per quest. So I spend about 4000 PP to 6000 PP per quest, however I offset some of this with vendor trash and the auction house

I've made some good sales with the auction house so that keeps me with enough funds. I also keep my cleric indoors with the exception of guild stuff and some favor things here and there.

Uska
06-27-2007, 02:58 AM
Clerics could use extra spell points, it would make things easier, but with the state of things your going to buy more heal scrolls and cure wands and other such items if you are a healing cleric.

It's gong to cost a lot, so you have to decide, are these some people that I like and I want to continue on with them to get at whatever it is that I'm after.

Or would you rather just not play your cleric.

I keep my cleric locked up most of the time to keep cost down. But every now and again I bring him out because I like to play him.

But for the most part I keep him away from everyone else.


I bring my cleric out all the time but I dont buy stacks of heal scrolls and only allow myself 1-3 cure serious wands on a elite gh quest and no I wont usually call out for sp I might if I am capped but not likely. If its not enough and the group(pug) starts being jerks its WoR for me and off to house d always keep enough sp for that unless I am with my guild or one or two other guilds Ransack and DR maybe if someone wants to donate the supplies then they will be put to use like theres no tomorrow but I wont go broke for a pug

cptcruch
06-27-2007, 06:50 AM
at lvl 5 you dont have pop X, wizardy V or VI items, mental toughness maybe, improved mental toughness i doubt it...............empowered healing maybe, all the enhancements for empowered healing (no you dont)........do you get my point?

No at lvl 5 you have nothing! Clerics are fine tell you party members to use more tactics or drop out of group.

Valzoric
06-27-2007, 10:09 AM
Lvl 14 Dwarf Cleric here, I have every possible enhancement except the 4th level of Dwarven Faith, I also have a Magi Item. My SP sit at 1315.

Just like anything else, healing is an art. Just as you can have good wizards and great wizards, decent rogues and excellent rogues, you can have good healers and awesome healers. All depends on how you play it and how much you get into it.

Some people are perfectly happy being the tank, running in, crushing the skulls of the enemies. Yet, take that same person and now put them in the seat of a healer. Me, I've been playing Clerics for a long time, even in PnP I played clerics.

JosephKell
06-27-2007, 10:48 AM
Would a Cleric 13/Sorcerer 1 have more spell points by being able to get double bonus SP from items?

The double SP thing is probably the greatest reason I would make a Cleric 3/Sorcerer 4/MT over a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MT if MT were ever added to the game.

Mad_Bombardier
06-27-2007, 11:08 AM
Would a Cleric 13/Sorcerer 1 have more spell points by being able to get double bonus SP from items?

The double SP thing is probably the greatest reason I would make a Cleric 3/Sorcerer 4/MT over a Cleric 3/Wizard 3/MT if MT were ever added to the game.No, you only get a percentage increase based on your percent Sorc levels.

dragonruler
06-27-2007, 02:22 PM
ok after reading everything yall have to say about what i wrote i realize that its me that is having difficulties and that clrs do have enough sp. i think what it is is that im a little ocd so it makes me worry not seeing everyones health at full so im constantly tryin to keep everyones health full.

im gonna work on not tryin so much to keep hp at full. and the whole using 15 wands wasnt an exaggeration but stupid me forgot that that happened when i was doin a chain quest on a setting that i wasnt what i was prepared for.

i have another question is it better for a clr to take a lvl of sorcery? because i didnt know if it would be better to do that for the sp or not does it make that big of a difference? if so i might think of rerollin my new clr.

Mercules
06-27-2007, 02:44 PM
ok after reading everything yall have to say about what i wrote i realize that its me that is having difficulties and that clrs do have enough sp. i think what it is is that im a little ocd so it makes me worry not seeing everyones health at full so im constantly tryin to keep everyones health full.

im gonna work on not tryin so much to keep hp at full. and the whole using 15 wands wasnt an exaggeration but stupid me forgot that that happened when i was doin a chain quest on a setting that i wasnt what i was prepared for.

i have another question is it better for a clr to take a lvl of sorcery? because i didnt know if it would be better to do that for the sp or not does it make that big of a difference? if so i might think of rerollin my new clr.

Here is a tip. Find out how many HPs each person has. Next, heal them according to the circumstances. Fighter at 3/4 health in WWs with an Ogre in melee, you might want to top them off. Fighter at half health and no mobs in sight, you might want to get them to 3/4. I still use CLWs even at level 13. CLWs with my Enhancements and Empower Healing, will bump most casters up a significant amount. I've actually used a CLW wand I was given in a level 14 Elite quest to top people off after other healing.

For me Divine Healing is a god-send, no pun intended. I can slap it on a melee in combat to keep them constantly topped off and just use Cure spells when they drop significantly or the DH can't keep up. It also works VERY well on the hard to heal WF.

As for the Sorcerer splash on a Cleric. I've seen people do it, and it isn't horrible, but be aware it will push all your spells back a level. Level 5 Clerics are desired for Remove Curse, level 9 for Raise Dead, and so on. If a group knows they will have an easier time with a certain spell loaded, they will likely be looking for a Cleric that can have that spell. For example, running into a lot of Beholders means having a level 9 Cleric is nice. Scrolls could be used, but they are expensive and while you could run everyone back to a shrine, that means collecting stones under the eye of an angry Beholder.

Then again the Sorcerer splash offers SPs and a side effect of Arcane Wands which can increase utility including buffs you would normally look to an arcane caster for like Stoneskin, Heroism, Blur, all of which can make your Cleric's goal of keeping the team upright a LOT easier.

It is a trade-off.

Riggs
06-27-2007, 02:48 PM
Paper D&D clerics got domain spells, ie 1 extra spell per day.

That gave them more spells per day than wizards, and nearly as much as sorcerers. So...by that math, clerics shold be having 20-25% more spell points than a wizard of equal level.

Forget play styles, forget how many buffs you hand out. Clerics HAD more spells than a wizard, it was just that wizard spells were generally more powerful. Why in DDO do they not?

(before someone brings up wizards specializing in a school - that adds some spells, but limits the other spells they can cast, domains do not - its extra spells on top)

JosephKell
06-27-2007, 03:07 PM
Paper D&D clerics got domain spells, ie 1 extra spell per day.If that's all you have to really "boost" the power of PnP Clerics... well, you're funny.

Google "CoDzilla."

-JK

Klattuu
06-27-2007, 04:52 PM
I strongly believe that the devs should increase the clerics spell points. i mean being a cleric is hard when your having to spend a ton of money on wands because you dont have enough spell points to heal throughout a quest. I mean on my lvl 5 clr that i recently made, I have given her every possible item to increase her spell points but its still not enough to last through a quest. i went through almost 15 cure mod wands because her spell points run out so fast. When i made her i gave her the highest possible wisdom so as to get more sp. Also i believe there should be a race that gives a +2 to wisdom just like how other races give a +2 to other stats. That would make things a little better for when you go to make a cleric.

Maybe the problem isn't the limits of the Cleric but the demands the party puts on the cleric through the I-can-be-as-reckless-as-I-want-because-the-cleric-can-patch-me-up playstyle.

If the cleric does not have money for wands or the party won't chip in to properly equip their cleric, the party has to work withing the constraints the healer can heal or fail the quest.

It can be done.

MysticTheurge
06-27-2007, 05:58 PM
Without getting into the entire debate, I find it interesting that most of the reasons that people present for why clerics have enough spellpoints now are the exact same reasons people gave for why clerics had enough spellpoints before the increase.

Cowdenicus
06-29-2007, 10:34 AM
Without getting into the entire debate, I find it interesting that most of the reasons that people present for why clerics have enough spellpoints now are the exact same reasons people gave for why clerics had enough spellpoints before the increase.

Yeah that irony was not lost upon me either.

Elfvyra
06-29-2007, 10:51 AM
Paper D&D clerics got domain spells, ie 1 extra spell per day.

That gave them more spells per day than wizards, and nearly as much as sorcerers. So...by that math, clerics shold be having 20-25% more spell points than a wizard of equal level.

Forget play styles, forget how many buffs you hand out. Clerics HAD more spells than a wizard, it was just that wizard spells were generally more powerful. Why in DDO do they not?

(before someone brings up wizards specializing in a school - that adds some spells, but limits the other spells they can cast, domains do not - its extra spells on top)

And so do Specialist Wizards... so what's your point? ;)

Zenako
06-29-2007, 11:09 AM
Without getting into the entire debate, I find it interesting that most of the reasons that people present for why clerics have enough spellpoints now are the exact same reasons people gave for why clerics had enough spellpoints before the increase.

I felt I had enough before, and the increase obviously would not reduce that feeling. When playing smart, I had plenty, but if in a group that did not use tactics or party skills or synergy, then I would run out. A well balanced design should be manageable within nominal resources. On normal settings, this is pretty much always the case, on higher settings such as elite, sometimes unless you are very careful about the situation, extra resources will be needed.

OKCRandy1
06-29-2007, 01:06 PM
Great thread and many good suggestions for clerics, much of it I've had to learn recently as I've brought my cleric up to lvl 9. I agree it can be expensive to run a cleric, but as many have said it need not be expensive.

I would disagree about PUG's. Although I'm guilded and mostly run with guild groups now and like many have had mixed experiences with PUGS, I find most individuals in DDO are good people and very eager to be cooperative in running a quest. I think perhaps that many people mistake lemmings mentality for rudeness by the entire PUG. For instance, if someone starts zerging through a quest sustaining crazy dmg, many people will think "ohh they know where they are going, I don't want to look like I'm holding them up"(I remember the day when I didn't know better either), and so they follow like lemmings to the inevitable party wipe. However, if they hear the voice of reason making the normal good quest suggestions (use your doorways, slow down and don't take so much damage, don't run out of healing range, be aware if you're blocked for healing, use your shields, utilize buffs, run the baddies through the crowd control spells, etc.), I've found that most people really want to be good sports and will listen. One bad apple can spoil the bunch (please someone give me less tired analogy).

One another side note. I don't think it's brought up often enough that fortification items are extremely important for saving healing and rez! I can tell when I'm running with a group with few having fortification items...when you're running a quest and hear over and over the refrain "Ohh I was critical'ed" immediately after they're red bar took a dive to death. Fort items are relatively cheap and easy to find. I've pulled countless for items myself.

Material
01-17-2012, 06:55 AM
First, I have like 1200+ SP as a level 14 cleric. It is usually enough unless I get a little crazy and start killing everything in sight.

The problem with statements like these, is they don't answer anything. If you have 1200+sp, why not tell him your breakdown?

Level 14 would get:

600 base
80 magical training
230 bonus for 30 wis
100 for a magi item
----
1010 total

Where are your remaining 190+?

Bacab
01-17-2012, 07:22 AM
I should get to upgrade my Silver Flame Trinket for reading through 2 pages of this thread before realizing...


NECRO POST!

nivarch
01-17-2012, 07:34 AM
I should get to upgrade my Silver Flame Trinket for reading through 2 pages of this thread before realizing...


NECRO POST!

Started to read everything, and then realized they were talking of a recent SP increase, and noone even talked of Radiant servant...
That's when I realized it's a beautiful Necro ;)

(And damn why am I bumping this up?)

zeonardo
01-17-2012, 08:50 AM
My level 1 cleric has OVER 9000!!
C'mon! ¬¬

What's the point?
- Roll a 28pts, first toon, no player experience cleric.
- But you're not supposed to know how to play a cleric by then, you'd say!!
- Ok. Then roll 28pts, first toon, no player experience barbarian/fighter/ranger/paladin.
- Play sword and board with tower shield and dagger, dual wield those sonic bastard swords like a radio antenna without the feats, take power attack at first level... make devil happy and nobody will care. Nobody will tell you how to play it. You can have fun, take your time to learn by attempt and error.

Clerics can't do that on pugs because people depend on the clerics and not on themselves.
What's worse? Character creation says: Solo ability - Good!
What could possibly go wrong?

I say: roll a battle cleric, solo the hell out of it, have fun and post funny LFM to mock the ones looking for a healer for 2 hours. (Healer on vacation - I'm a battle cleric! - Looking for pikers to scale my dungeon - I can solo that! and so on)

Stats are:
18 str + lvlups
base DEX
16 con at least
base int
leftovers on wis
base cha

Dwarf or human for your first try, but any race would cut it.
Take Empower healling spell on lvl 1 or 3. Whatever other feat you'd like. Experiment. Take Improved Posion Resist! Sap! Or what not. Have fun! Reroll, do it over again!
Group up when you want, but don't feel bad if ppl decide to kill themselves.

Tired of people who play uber toons, with thousand alts to pimp it up saying that playing a cleric is easy.

That's why we don't have +2 wis race, only ONE +7 wis item, ridiculous spell selection, no dominion, no finished PrE (and still it's a healbot PrE), ridiculous enhancements...

All whe have is MOAR and MOAR uber weapons, khopeshes, Greatswords, +100 seeker gear, uberior element spells power ups, mainstream classes PrEs and elitism.

I spent zillions of plat on wands and scrolls and things I never used on my toons before I realize that It was not me doing it wrong.

I only play divines. And it's tons of fun, but took some time to realize it.
A few years later and my lower level clerics still run out of SP when I pug.

And you know what?
read the sig...

/rant off
blood.... preassure... going... back... to... normal...
Sorry, guys! I had to take this off my chest! :D

davidolson22
01-17-2012, 09:11 AM
Arise thread of the dead. Arise!