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joker965
06-26-2007, 10:03 AM
Good Stuff!

Quarion
06-26-2007, 10:04 AM
Here is the list of new spells we are currently working on for Update 4.2: Searing Heights:

Spells for Paladins:

Angelskin
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Pal 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: Lawful Good creature touched (self or ally)
Duration: 6 seconds/level

The subject gains damage reduction 5/evil.

Holy Sword
Evocation [Good]
Level: Pal 4
Components: V, S, M

Channels holy power to turn a Blessed Cold Iron weapon into a +5 Holy Cold Iron weapon that grants its wielder a continuous Protection From Evil effect while equipped. The holy weapon is permanent, but is destroyed on dungeon exit. The House Jorasco Divine Reagent Vendor carries Blessed Cold Iron Greatswords, Bastard Swords, Longswords, Shortswords, Scimitars, Warhammers, Rapiers, Dwarven Waraxes, Khopeshes, Mauls, and Heavy Picks.

Spells for Clerics:

Chaos Hammer
Evocation [Chaotic]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash chaotic power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to lawful creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to lawful outsiders) and slows them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the slow effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not slowed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to chaotic creatures, and can only be cast by chaotic or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a lawful caster.

Close Wounds
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 2
Components: V
Target: One Ally, Self, or Undead Foe
Saving Throw: Will half

Close Wounds cures 1d4 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). This spell is quicker to cast than other cures and has no cooldown other than the one second global cooldown.

Nightshield
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute/level

Grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves; this resistance bonus increases to +2 at caster level 6th and +3 at caster level 9th. In addition, this spell negates Magic Missile and Force Missile attacks directed at you.

Order's Wrath
Evocation [Lawful]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash lawful power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to chaotic creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to chaotic outsiders) and dazes them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the daze effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not dazed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to lawful creatures, and can only be cast by lawful or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a chaotic caster.

Spawn Screen
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: One Ally/level
Duration: 1 minute/level

Protects you and your allies from rising as spawns of common undead after death. Certain very rare, exceptionally powerful creatures (with purple names) may be able to bypass this ward.

Unholy Blight
Evocation [Evil]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You call up unholy power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to good creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to good outsiders) and sickens them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the sicken effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither good nor evil, and they are not sickened. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to evil creatures, and can only be cast by evil or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a good caster.

Spells for Bards:

Focusing Chant
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1
Components: V
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute

You gain a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls and skill checks for the duration of the spell.

Spells for Wizards

Spawn Screen
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: One Ally/level
Duration: 1 minute/level

Protects you and your allies from rising as spawns of common undead after death. Certain very rare, exceptionally powerful creatures (with purple names) may be able to bypass this ward.

Nightshield
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute/level

Grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves; this resistance bonus increases to +2 at caster level 6th and +3 at caster level 9th. In addition, this spell negates Magic Missile and Force Missile attacks directed at you.

Ooze Puppet
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Target: One Ooze
Duration: 10 minutes
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates

You telekinetically take control of the targeted ooze, manipulating it and forcing it to move and attack as you see fit. Oozes dominated by this spell are slowed, and once a minute receive an additional save to attempt to free themselves. If the controlled ooze splits, you lose control of the resultant oozes.

New Enhancements for Bards:

Spellsinger:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell

"Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.

Virtuoso:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Extra Song 2, Bard Skill: Perform 2, Bard Lingering Song 1, Bard Charisma 1, Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song 4, Skill Focus: Perform, Negotiator

"Your studies into song have granted you a +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, 3 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest, and your beneficial songs last an additional 10% longer. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken."

Warchanter:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning

"Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves. If you possess the Barbarian Rage ability, you gain +1 use per rest. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-."

Note you may only have one Bardic Specialization at a time

Bard Music of the Dead enhancement prerequisite changed to:
Bard Level 6 (from 11)
Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song IV or Bard Virtuoso IBard Music of the Makers enhancement prerequisite changed to:
Bard Level 9 (from 11)
Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song IV, Bard Virtuoso I, Warforged Construct Thinking III, Lesser Dragonmark of MakingEnhancement Changes for Rangers:

Ranger Vermin Empathy enhancement prerequisites changed to:
Ranger Level 2 (from 11)
Ranger Extra Empathy I and any one of the following: Favored Enemy: Vermin, Ranger Desert Lore 2, Ranger Swamp Lore 2, or Ranger Extra Empathy IV.Ranger Elemental Empathy enhancement prerequisites changed to:
Ranger Level 4 (from 12)
Ranger Extra Empathy I and any one of the following: Favored Enemy: Elemental, Ranger Energy Resistance Boost III, or Ranger Extra Empathy IV.Enhancement Changes for Rogues:

Way of the Assassin now has three different poisons available for use with Assassin’s Focus: Thoughtburn (Int damage and prevents casting for a short time), Icechill (Dex damage and slows the target's attack speed for a short time), and Soulshatter (Lowers the target's spell resistance by 10 and Will saves by 4 for a short time). A character may only have one Assassin’s Focus ability active at a time.

Gol
06-26-2007, 10:10 AM
Seems a little underwhelming, but the Nightshield will be useful for Battle Clerics I guess. Beats out a lot of the other level 1 spells anyway.

Conejo
06-26-2007, 10:14 AM
Nightshield
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute/level

Grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves; this resistance bonus increases to +2 at caster level 6th and +3 at caster level 9th. In addition, this spell negates Magic Missile and Force Missile attacks directed at you.


THANK YOU!

Cowdenicus
06-26-2007, 10:16 AM
mmmmm Bardic love.

Zenako
06-26-2007, 10:18 AM
Umm Nightshield will be very welcome I am sure. The AC from the normal Shield spell was often wasted.

The bard changes look VERY interesting. Gonna have to think and look a lot at which one works best for my bard...I wanna take all three....sigh

How many AP for each of these???

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:18 AM
The Bard enhancements look pretty hard to meet in my opinion. I was looking forward to them but I need to take 3 feats do this do that blah blah. Probably can't take any with my battle bard I don't have the feats to spare.

Spellsinger looks great for CC caster Bards the others seem kind of not worth it.

Coldin
06-26-2007, 10:19 AM
I really like those new bard enhancements. I know I'll be taking Spellsinger, but Warchanter looks great for those battle bards out there.

Zenako
06-26-2007, 10:23 AM
Hmm thinking about things...


Sorcs will love having a SPellsinger nearby, what with getting a free 10% savings on spell point costs? Kinda like continuous DV's...

Some of these synergies look very powerful...

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:27 AM
I really like those new bard enhancements. I know I'll be taking Spellsinger, but Warchanter looks great for those battle bards out there.

Warchanter looks ok, but Inspired Bravery is pretty much a waste of AP and taking a focus feat is also not always that great either. Spellsinger does look very powerful I have a battle Bard and may well take that. I would probably not take warchanter as it is written.

Zenako
06-26-2007, 10:30 AM
The Bard enhancements look pretty hard to meet in my opinion. I was looking forward to them but I need to take 3 feats do this do that blah blah. Probably can't take any with my battle bard I don't have the feats to spare.

Spellsinger looks great for CC caster Bards the others seem kind of not worth it.


Look again, you only need one of the feats on the list to qualify as I read it.

sabs
06-26-2007, 10:33 AM
Forget the 10% discount from spellslinger (which is nice) +1 dc to all spells?

That's awesome, assuming it stacks.

BurnerD
06-26-2007, 10:34 AM
Question: How does Spawn Screen currently fit into the game?

Pat
06-26-2007, 10:35 AM
Since the implementation of holy sword is coming can we maybe expect to see some sort of implementation for magic weapon (Clr lvl1, Pal lvl1, Sor/Wiz lvl1) and greater magic weapon (Clr lvl4, Pal lvl3, Sor/Wiz lvl3) in the future? Possibly, keen edge (Sor/Wiz lvl3) as well?

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:35 AM
Look again, you only need one of the feats on the list to qualify as I read it.

Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning

Looks to me like I have to waste AP on inspired bravery and have power attack and one weapon focus feat. That seems pretty steep to me. That sounds like it is assuming you are fighting with a two handed weapon. I am not a Barb so rage is worthless as is intimidate.

Damage reduction is nice and so are the to-hit/damage but not probably worth it or nearly as powerful as spellsinger.

Conejo
06-26-2007, 10:36 AM
Since the implementation of holy sword is coming can we maybe expect to see some sort of implementation for magic weapon (Clr lvl1, Pal lvl1, Sor/Wiz lvl1) and greater magic weapon (Clr lvl4, Pal lvl3, Sor/Wiz lvl3) in the future? Possibly, keen edge (Sor/Wiz lvl3) as well?

with how they're implementing Holy Sword (that is to say: poorly), i suspect not.

Turbine has yet to figure out how to modify existing items.

sabs
06-26-2007, 10:37 AM
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning

Looks to me like I have to waste AP on inspired bravery and have power attack and one weapon focus feat. That seems pretty steep to me. That sounds like it is assuming you are fighting with a two handed weapon. I am not a Barb so rage is worthless as is intimidate.

Damage reduction is nice and so are the to-hit/damage but not probably worth it or nearly as powerful as spellsinger.

I've seen some bard/barbarian multiclass chars though, that will loe this one.

Coldin
06-26-2007, 10:37 AM
Warchanter looks ok, but Inspired Bravery is pretty much a waste of AP and taking a focus feat is also not always that great either. Spellsinger does look very powerful I have a battle Bard and may well take that. I would probably not take warchanter as it is written.


The pre-reqs for Warchanter do seem a tad too steep for most bards to take just because you need to take a couple feats that most bards would never take. It almost seems made for multi-class bards, but maybe that's the point.

I think there's a mistake with Spellsinger though. You can have Magical Training for one of the pre-reqs, but all bards get Magical Training. So that probably shouldn't be there.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:38 AM
Forget the 10% discount from spellslinger (which is nice) +1 dc to all spells?

That's awesome, assuming it stacks.

Yeah that seems by far the most powerful. Bards need spell points to so the extra 100 would benefit any build as would UMD.

CSFurious
06-26-2007, 10:38 AM
i would roll one with a human

go 12bard/2barbarian or maybe 10bard/4barbarian

it could be pretty tough for a tank or off-tank damage dealer

no cc, just a "warchanter"

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:40 AM
i would roll one with a human

go 12bard/2barbarian or maybe 10bard/4barbarian

it could be pretty tough for a tank or off-tank damage dealer

no cc, just a "warchanter"

Guess I was hoping for a more general boost to fighting not a particular limited style, like spellsinger is a general boost to casting.

Hurin
06-26-2007, 10:41 AM
Nice to see Pallies get some luv. Angelskin looks like a decent spell.

Ransacked
06-26-2007, 10:41 AM
With this becomming a player castable spell of the "unholy" type will unholy weapons and items be re-introduced into the loot tables?

Arjen
06-26-2007, 10:41 AM
Bard Enhancements!

Look really great - it will be nice to see more diversity in builds. Thanks for the love, devs! :D

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 10:42 AM
Question: How does Spawn Screen currently fit into the game?

Every had a bad party wipe at the end of Beyond the Grave? You can end up with dozens of wraiths running around, instantly killing anyone else who rezzes, making more and more wraiths.

That kind of thing.

Ransacked
06-26-2007, 10:44 AM
Nice to see Pallies get some luv. Angelskin looks like a decent spell.

The duration seems to be somewhat lacking however...

6 seconds per caster level...

GeneralDiomedes
06-26-2007, 10:46 AM
I think there's a mistake with Spellsinger though. You can have Magical Training for one of the pre-reqs, but all bards get Magical Training. So that probably shouldn't be there.

Last time I checked they didn't .. which is why some multiclass with Sorc for the 80 mana they get from Magical Training.

Cedrica-the-Bard
06-26-2007, 10:47 AM
Inspired Bravery 2 ranks?? Come on... In the end game, everyone on my team has a Greater Heroism, because I give it out if the wizzy doesn't and it has fear immunity as part of it. Why on earth would you ask me to waste action points on Inspired Bravery to get access to the Warchanter? Silly, IMHO.

Also, makes me wish my Battle Bard had taken a level of Barbarian instead of Fighter to get the most out of this. :( I'm a little disappointed...

As for Virtuoso and Spellsinger, I could make those work on my traditional Bard or my Battle Bard, I suppose... Need to think on it though, may end up being far too costly with all those pre-reqs.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 10:48 AM
Spellsinger:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell

"Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.

Most of these look good. However, I don't agree with requiring the Song Magic or Lyric enhancements. These only benefit a small number of bard spells, and many bards don't have any of them, even if they are focused on spellcasting. Total cost to unlock: 10 Action points + 1 feat.

For Virtuoso, one of the primary benefits was the ability to unlock Music of the Dead at an earlier level. However, you made the prerequisites for Virtuoso either two feats that are virtually never used(SF: Perform or Negotiator), or Extra Song IV, which you can't take until much later. Essentially, anyone who wants to take this at level 6 will likely have to take a feat to qualify, then swap it out once the get Extra Song IV. Total cost to unlock: Either 9 AP + 1 Feat, or 14 Action Points.

The Warchanter looks better, but the prerequisites for it are a bit steep also. All of the other new enhancements only require one feat, while Warchanter requires two. Total cost to unlock: 6 Action Points + 2 Feats.

I'll likely be taking the Spellsinger enhancement, but I'm going to have to add in several enhancements that do nothing for me in order to get access to it, simply because I don't have Cure spells and my only sonic spell does a d8 damage.

Hiletroy
06-26-2007, 10:49 AM
Description of Bard Virtuoso has me confused....

"You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken."

So, does this mean that only a bard virtuoso can fascinate multiple enemies, and everyone else can only fascinate one target, or does this refer to the second part of the song where only a Virtuoso can inflict the mob with the penalties as described?

BurnerD
06-26-2007, 10:49 AM
Every had a bad party wipe at the end of Beyond the Grave? You can end up with dozens of wraiths running around, instantly killing anyone else who rezzes, making more and more wraiths.

That kind of thing.

Aah .. Thanks for explaining it. Believe or not I haven't been in a party wipe in Beyond The Grave, but I understand the mechanic now. Didn't realize party member deaths created more wraiths. Makes sense now

Chorus
06-26-2007, 10:50 AM
New Enhancements for Bards:

Spellsinger:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell

"Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.


NOW I ONLY SEMI HATE YOU TURBINE!!!! This only semi makes up for the bard nerfs.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 10:52 AM
Description of Bard Virtuoso has me confused....

"You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken."

So, does this mean that only a bard virtuoso can fascinate multiple enemies, and everyone else can only fascinate one target, or does this refer to the second part of the song where only a Virtuoso can inflict the mob with the penalties as described?

Yes, only the Virtuoso can inflict the mob with penalties.

And to answer an earlier question, no, bards do not get Magical Training. Only wizards, sorcs, and clerics receive that at level one.

katanaflame
06-26-2007, 10:53 AM
holysword is things most high lv pallys allready have

angel skin ohoh another 1 minuite buff well I can only hope it stackes with adamantine armor & stone skin.

but the new human versitility is good so I guess it evens out

I never thought I would see the day a human pally would need to use key maping

Coldin
06-26-2007, 10:53 AM
Last time I checked they didn't .. which is why some multiclass with Sorc for the 80 mana they get from Magical Training.

I'm pretty sure all classes that can cast spells get Magical Training, and that you need Magical Training to take Mental Toughness. I'd need to get in the game to check though.

Edit: Alright, I stand corrected. Just checked it in-game.

Yvonne_Blacksword
06-26-2007, 10:59 AM
Focusing Chant
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1
Components: V
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute

You gain a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls and skill checks for the duration of the spell.

wow...bards must be over powered if this is all we get...


Virtuoso:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Extra Song 2, Bard Skill: Perform 2, Bard Lingering Song 1, Bard Charisma 1, Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song 4, Skill Focus: Perform, Negotiator

"Your studies into song have granted you a +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, 3 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest, and your beneficial songs last an additional 10% longer. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken."
...so the pre reqs havent changed...I really have never seen a bard with those particular skill focuses...perform, UMD seem to be the only ones I have seen...pre req for extra song 2...then extra song 4 leave the minimum requirement...kinda moot. I guess some will be willing to respec for virtuoso. not I.


Bard Music of the Dead enhancement prerequisite changed to:
Bard Level 6 (from 11)
Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song IV or Bard Virtuoso IBard Music of the Makers enhancement prerequisite changed to:
Bard Level 9 (from 11)
Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song IV, Bard Virtuoso I, Warforged Construct Thinking III, Lesser Dragonmark of MakingAnd I am still getting neither by level 14 due to the need to prevent gimping myself...

Warchanter:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning

"Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves. If you possess the Barbarian Rage ability, you gain +1 use per rest. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-." this might be ok...
so ok...i am a whiney bard...but at least I know when to run from other's fascinate spells...:rolleyes: not falling for it...no respec.

Yoseph
06-26-2007, 11:00 AM
Bard Music of the Dead enhancement prerequisite changed to:
Bard Level 6 (from 11)
Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song IV or Bard Virtuoso I

So what you are really saying is you can only get Music of the Dead before 10th level if you go Virtuoso as you can't even get Bard Extra Song IV as an enhancement until you are 10th level.

Thanks for that great change.

RemoJr
06-26-2007, 11:01 AM
Spellsinger:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell

"Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.


oohhhh, nice :)

Freeman
06-26-2007, 11:04 AM
So what you are really saying is you can only get Music of the Dead before 10th level if you go Virtuoso as you can't even get Bard Extra Song IV as an enhancement until you are 10th level.

Thanks for that great change.

Not at all. You can get it at level 6, provided you take one of two useless feats(Okay, Negotiator has a small benefit, but Skill Focus: Perform has absolutely 0 use in the game, other than as a requirement for this enhancement). Once you get access to Extra Song IV, then you can swap out the useless feat for something useful. That must be what you intended people to do, right Turbine? :rolleyes:

Shadow_Flayer
06-26-2007, 11:08 AM
Not at all. You can get it at level 6, provided you take one of two useless feats(Okay, Negotiator has a small benefit, but Skill Focus: Perform has absolutely 0 use in the game, other than as a requirement for this enhancement). Once you get access to Extra Song IV, then you can swap out the useless feat for something useful. That must be what you intended people to do, right Turbine? :rolleyes:


.... or part of Operation Bard Love is to make Perform matter, in which case there will be much complaining.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 11:12 AM
.... or part of Operation Bard Love is to make Perform matter, in which case there will be much complaining.

This doesn't make Perform matter, it makes the feat Skill Focus: Perform have a small purpose. However, beyond opening up new bard songs, Perform currently has no purpose in the game. There's no reason to increase it with enhancements, feats, or items. That's why I feel requiring a useless feat as a prerequisite is not a good move. I wish Perform did matter, but right now, it doesn't.

Katrina
06-26-2007, 11:13 AM
Question: How does Spawn Screen currently fit into the game?

Wraiths and some shadows have the ability to raise your corpse as another (less powerful) undead that fights against your friends. Very handy in Delera's :D

DrAwkward
06-26-2007, 11:13 AM
Nightshield
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute/level

Grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves; this resistance bonus increases to +2 at caster level 6th and +3 at caster level 9th. In addition, this spell negates Magic Missile and Force Missile attacks directed at you.

I'm concerned that a 1st level spell is able to negate a 4th level spell, and that this spell basically makes you immune to a caster that specced the "force" line of enhancements.

What is the logic behind making a long duration first level spell that makes you immune to every force spell in the game?

Shadow_Flayer
06-26-2007, 11:15 AM
This doesn't make Perform matter, it makes the feat Skill Focus: Perform have a small purpose. However, beyond opening up new bard songs, Perform currently has no purpose in the game. There's no reason to increase it with enhancements, feats, or items. That's why I feel requiring a useless feat as a prerequisite is not a good move. I wish Perform did matter, but right now, it doesn't.

.... or they made perform matter by changing the Fascinate songs to have actually saves, is what I was getting at. If this were true, then getting your perform skill higher would mean something other than just having access to the enhancement.

Duplicate_5
06-26-2007, 11:17 AM
I think you accidentally left Mirror Image off your list. I don't have the description right now but can add it later if you'd like :D

Freeman
06-26-2007, 11:17 AM
I'm concerned that a 1st level spell is able to negate a 4th level spell, and that this spell basically makes you immune to a caster that specced the "force" line of enhancements.

What is the logic behind making a long duration first level spell that makes you immune to every force spell in the game?

I have to agree with this. Spells that can negate other spells in DnD have always been the equivalent level or higher than the spells they negate. A first level spell should never negate a fourth level spell. If you want to have similar functionality, perhaps change it to something like Force Resistance 5, which will take of the first 5 points of force damage for each attack. That would negate non-enhanced magic missiles, but only reduce force missiles by a small amount.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 11:20 AM
.... or they made perform matter by changing the Fascinate songs to have actually saves, is what I was getting at. If this were true, then getting your perform skill higher would mean something other than just having access to the enhancement.

The cart can't pull the horse very well. There's been no hint that they are going to do this anytime soon. While they should do it, I'm going by what is either in the game, or announced as coming soon. Until they change the way Fascinate works, this is a completely useless feat, with no purpose in the game itself.

Even after they change Fascinate(I believe they will eventually, but I don't see it happening anytime soon, given the amount of time they spend on bards), I doubt many people will use this. A +3 to a skill that is already in the high 30s isn't really worth a feat slot.

Katrina
06-26-2007, 11:20 AM
Inspired Bravery 2 ranks?? Come on... In the end game, everyone on my team has a Greater Heroism, because I give it out if the wizzy doesn't and it has fear immunity as part of it. Why on earth would you ask me to waste action points on Inspired Bravery to get access to the Warchanter? Silly, IMHO.


Sometimes you have to sacrifice to get something good. I know I didn't want to take mobility to get whirlwind attack on my fighter :( but it's worth it to me to sacrifice the feat for something greater.

Hurin
06-26-2007, 11:23 AM
The duration [of Angelskin] seems to be somewhat lacking however...

6 seconds per caster level...

Hmm... what is it in PnP?

My Pally won't be using it since he can just use Stoneskin wands and scrolls, but I thought it might be a nice one for the pure Pallies.

Edit: does anyone have the Spell Compendium handy? The only source I could find said it was 1 round/level, but it also listed the DR as 10/evil...

Kraki
06-26-2007, 11:25 AM
Spells that can negate other spells in DnD have always been the equivalent level or higher than the spells they negate. A first level spell should never negate a fourth level spell.


Since I was about to post the same thing, I'll just put in a /agree here. If the need for a total immunity is there, perhaps Shield @ lvl 1 and Nightshield (or Improved Shield or whatever you wanna call it) @ lvl 4 which would block both kinds of missle. I'm guessing that this will be a short duration buff? Not 1min/lvl since for 15 mana I'd be immune to MM and FM for 28 minutes.

Kraki

darkgolem
06-26-2007, 11:26 AM
Oozepuppet!

Underwhelming, but cool.

Asal
06-26-2007, 11:28 AM
Will the holy sword be tradeable in a dungeon? I think most Paladin who will be able to cast that spell have a better weapon already. I see little use for the spell.

Angelskin is way too short a a buff to be much use.

Tyrande
06-26-2007, 11:29 AM
I have to agree with this. Spells that can negate other spells in DnD have always been the equivalent level or higher than the spells they negate. A first level spell should never negate a fourth level spell. If you want to have similar functionality, perhaps change it to something like Force Resistance 5, which will take of the first 5 points of force damage for each attack. That would negate non-enhanced magic missiles, but only reduce force missiles by a small amount.

I have to agree with this as well. What this means is that any player or monster with access to the spell, scroll or wand would want to cast it on themselves. Also, no caster would take magic missiles and/or force missiles in their repertoire any more.

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 11:30 AM
Spellsinger = 10 APs & 1 feat spent
Virtuoso = 9 APs & 1 feat (or 10 more APs, but not til lvl 10)
Warchanter = 6 APs & 2 feats

If Virtuoso was Extra Song III, it would be pretty much even all the way around. But as it is, Warchanter seems a bit steep. Bards are not exactly rich in feats. And any reason why WF:Ranged and WF:Thrown are not options? Are Devs trying to tell us that ranged combatants really are less worthy than melee?

Craigthegreat
06-26-2007, 11:31 AM
Spellsinger = 10 APs & 1 feat spent
Virtuoso = 9 APs & 1 feat (or 10 more APs, but not til lvl 10)
Warchanter = 6 APs & 2 feats

If Virtuoso was Extra Song III, it would be pretty much even all the way around. But as it is, Warchanter seems a bit steep. Bards are not exactly rich in feats. And any reason why WF:Ranged and WF:Thrown are not options? Are Devs trying to tell us that ranged combatants really are less worthy than melee?


Yes, and for some time now. :p

Asal
06-26-2007, 11:32 AM
I'm concerned that a 1st level spell is able to negate a 4th level spell, and that this spell basically makes you immune to a caster that specced the "force" line of enhancements.

What is the logic behind making a long duration first level spell that makes you immune to every force spell in the game?

This spell is not for players. This is so monster cast a spell that makes them immune to player Magic missile. It will impact STK and VON 3.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 11:34 AM
Spellsinger = 10 APs & 1 feat spent
Virtuoso = 9 APs & 1 feat (or 10 more APs, but not til lvl 10)
Warchanter = 6 APs & 2 feats

If Virtuoso was Extra Song III, it would be pretty much even all the way around. But as it is, Warchanter seems a bit steep. Bards are not exactly rich in feats. And any reason why WF:Ranged and WF:Thrown are not options? Are Devs trying to tell us that ranged combatants really are less worthy than melee?

Don't forget that Virtuoso requires 3 action points be spent on the Bard: Perform enhancements, which currently have absolutely no use in the game as well. It is one thing to be forced to take enhancements or feats you don't want, it is another to be forced to take things that have no purpose in the game at all.

dameron
06-26-2007, 11:34 AM
I'm concerned that a 1st level spell is able to negate a 4th level spell, and that this spell basically makes you immune to a caster that specced the "force" line of enhancements.

What is the logic behind making a long duration first level spell that makes you immune to every force spell in the game?

So that non-arcane bosses can flash "immune" when force missiles hit them.

mgoldb2
06-26-2007, 11:36 AM
This spell is not for players. This is so monster cast a spell that makes them immune to player Magic missile. It will impact STK and VON 3.

I not seen a sorc/wizard use MM on stk boss or von 3 boss since around mod 2.

Asal
06-26-2007, 11:37 AM
Here is the list of new spells we are currently working on for Update 4.2: Searing Heights:

Spells for Clerics:

Chaos Hammer
Evocation [Chaotic]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash chaotic power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to lawful creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to lawful outsiders) and slows them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the slow effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not slowed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to chaotic creatures, and can only be cast by chaotic or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a lawful caster.

Order's Wrath
Evocation [Lawful]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash lawful power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to chaotic creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to chaotic outsiders) and dazes them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the daze effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not dazed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to lawful creatures, and can only be cast by lawful or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a chaotic caster.

Unholy Blight
Evocation [Evil]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You call up unholy power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to good creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to good outsiders) and sickens them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the sicken effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither good nor evil, and they are not sickened. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to evil creatures, and can only be cast by evil or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a good caster.



Love for my True Neutral Cleric :D

Beherit_Baphomar
06-26-2007, 11:37 AM
Hmm... what is it in PnP?

My Pally won't be using it since he can just use Stoneskin wands and scrolls, but I thought it might be a nice one for the pure Pallies.

Edit: does anyone have the Spell Compendium handy? The only source I could find said it was 1 round/level, but it also listed the DR as 10/evil...

Woo....some DR spell love that we just know wont stack with addy armour.

Thank whatever god my pally praises that he stayed pure to the paladin ways instead of MC'ing with a sorc/wizard/bard/rogue. I mean, if he had MC'd he would be able to use stoneskin wands, but not Angelskin spell....praise <insertgodsnamehere>!!!

Now, I also want to add yes, I do realise that not every update can focus on my builds. Im happy for you bards...'bout time ya got some love.

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 11:37 AM
.... or they made perform matter by changing the Fascinate songs to have actually saves, is what I was getting at. If this were true, then getting your perform skill higher would mean something other than just having access to the enhancement.Yes, but if that were the case, Perform as a skill can hit 2 to 3x a normal spell DC, so is still useless beyond a certain point.

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm concerned that a 1st level spell is able to negate a 4th level spell, and that this spell basically makes you immune to a caster that specced the "force" line of enhancements.

What is the logic behind making a long duration first level spell that makes you immune to every force spell in the game?I agree. Magic Missle immunity is more than enough. Give the high level casters a break or just change mobs so that they don't spam MM all the time.

Vinos
06-26-2007, 11:39 AM
Woo....some DR spell love that we just know wont stack with addy armour.

Thank whatever god my pally praises that he stayed pure to the paladin ways instead of MC'ing with a sorc/wizard/bard/rogue. I mean, if he had MC'd he would be able to use stoneskin wands, but not Angelskin spell....praise <insertgodsnamehere>!!!
.

LOL. Would have to agree with you here.

Elfvyra
06-26-2007, 11:40 AM
Umm Nightshield will be very welcome I am sure. The AC from the normal Shield spell was often wasted.

The bard changes look VERY interesting. Gonna have to think and look a lot at which one works best for my bard...I wanna take all three....sigh

How many AP for each of these???

Yeah, the mobs will love buffing themselves with this I'm sure. Especially since it can be cast on their companions as well. 2 more spells, Magic Missile and Force Missiles, casters will be discouraged from carrying. With this spell, and others like Freedom of Movement, that Mobs seem to be spam buffing with, my casters are running out of spells to carry....

Lcdr_Swizzle
06-26-2007, 11:40 AM
Well, long ago, the only way to finish STK was to have a lot of Magic Missile power at the end. With my luck, one of the monsters will cast nightshield, and so it won't work anymore.

Just kidding about the STK situation, but I do expect it to happen elsewhere. We will find that the Magic Missile we once relied on so heavily, will start gathering dust. This is ok for Wizards, and a small bump-in-the-road for sorcerors.

Changing the spells we rely on is part of the game. My wizard used to be a pyro-technic expert, burning just about everything ... now, he often just "gives them the finger" so to speak.

joker965
06-26-2007, 11:40 AM
I'm concerned that a 1st level spell is able to negate a 4th level spell, and that this spell basically makes you immune to a caster that specced the "force" line of enhancements.

What is the logic behind making a long duration first level spell that makes you immune to every force spell in the game?

So your worried that the Mobs are going to cast it?

joker965
06-26-2007, 11:44 AM
I have to agree with this. Spells that can negate other spells in DnD have always been the equivalent level or higher than the spells they negate. A first level spell should never negate a fourth level spell. If you want to have similar functionality, perhaps change it to something like Force Resistance 5, which will take of the first 5 points of force damage for each attack. That would negate non-enhanced magic missiles, but only reduce force missiles by a small amount.


Deathward(Lvl 4) > Power Word Kill(Lvl 9)

Say that again?

FYI: If you are that much higher in level just cast dispell and force nuke away.

Capstern
06-26-2007, 11:46 AM
I'm concerned that a 1st level spell is able to negate a 4th level spell, and that this spell basically makes you immune to a caster that specced the "force" line of enhancements.

What is the logic behind making a long duration first level spell that makes you immune to every force spell in the game?

Who in there right mind would ever spec for force in this game - I cant think any time force would be able to deal anywhere near the damage of cold or fire depending on the mob immunity

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 11:47 AM
One last note for now. With the introduction of Law, Chaos, and Unholy "smites," is there any word on fixing Unholy missle damage? As of the last report, it was damaging Neutral characters. If the alignment based damage isn't fixed, all of these spells will have the same effect.

P.S. That's why Holy Smite was fixed to blindness. They are correcting and differentiating. Unholy Blight is sickened, Chaos Hammer is slowed, and Order's Wrath is dazed.

Thrudh
06-26-2007, 11:52 AM
Angelskin and Holy Sword for Paladins are very useful additions to the game..

Nightshield is a great addition but is too powerful for a 1st level spell... blocking Magic Missiles, sure, but it should not be able to block Force Missiles. Love the resistance modifiers...

I'm not sure I understand the point behind Close Wounds... It's a second level spell, so costs twice as much as Cure Light, but cures less... It has a faster cooldown timer, but CLW is pretty fast...

Focusing Chant is a fun little spell for bards... especially since we can't sing Inspire Comptenance on ourselves... nice that we can boost our own skills a bit if needed.

Ooze Puppet... Now that looks like fun!!

The Bard enhancement lines... thank you very much for the bard love... The powers they grant are very good.. very useful, but not overpowering. However, I wish you'd look at the requirements again... I know it's a fine balance.. You don't necessairly want every bard to take one of these lines... You want to make a bard really think if taking one of these lines is worth it... but I think the costs are a bit too high...

Especially the Warchanter... That one looks like it was ONLY designed for a barbarian/bard character... How many bards have Power Attack AND Weapon Focus? I'd be willing to bet that less than 1% of current bards have both these feats. I mean you don't want every bard in the world to pick up the Warchanter line, but there are many many bards who are focused on melee who don't meet your requirements...

Our songs already give us huge pluses to hit... I can't even think of any reason a bard (especially a melee bard!) would have a Weapon Focus feat.

Warchanter should be much more broad... appealing to sword and board and two weapon fighting bards as well as the EXTREMEMLY rare two-handed melee bards with Power Attack and Weapon Focus...

Finally...

Chaos Hammer, Order's Wrath, Unholy Blight... Very interesting spells, yet completely worthless...

PLEASE review these spells and ALL direct damage spells... Max of 5d8 damage or even 10d6 against the appropriate outsiders just isn't enough...

You can't inflate all the hit points of all the monsters from D&D norms... and then leave the damage spells AT D&D norms... The damage spells need to be inflated somewhat as well...

Thank you for all your hard work on these additions... Even if they go in exactly as is, they are good additions to the game... But please read our comments for ideas... Thanks!

Aeneas
06-26-2007, 11:52 AM
I think virtuoso sounds great. Imagine running through pop and throwing down a "roaring" fascinate. Then having a sorc PK his way through behind you on mobs with decreased will saves. Not to mention the added ease of rounding up those who lose their fascinate early with a quick otto's or even hypnotism. Pretty sure i'll be respeccing to pick this up at least to try it.

That said, spellsinger does look to be the best of the 3 as spell points are often a problem even with a magi item and 32 charisma.

Warchanter seems to be for a highly specialized character which could be a great deal of fun, but by the same token, pretty risky. Dwarven bard-barian anyone?

Freeman
06-26-2007, 11:53 AM
Deathward(Lvl 4) > Power Word Kill(Lvl 9)

Say that again?

FYI: If you are that much higher in level just cast dispell and force nuke away.

You are correct, it is not entirely unprecedented. However, the spell is still much more powerful than it was intended to be. A quick search found that the original version only blocked MM, and even then, it was a limited amount of damage before the spell was exhausted.(5 points of damage per caster level) Even though they have bumped up the power considerably, it is still only caster level 1.

ccheath776
06-26-2007, 11:55 AM
Question.
Will nightshield protect against the force weapon of the Titan?

Beherit_Baphomar
06-26-2007, 11:57 AM
Oh and nice ninja post that guy!!!

jkm
06-26-2007, 12:04 PM
i'm pretty sure that shield stops force missile currently. i rolled a 1 on a mind blast on the end guy in pop and he spammed force missile at me for 45 seconds while the one non-stunned fighter beat the **** out of him and i took no damage.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:08 PM
Warchanter:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning
Please change this to "Require any one of the following: Power Attack, Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning"

All of the other new bard enhancements require you to have a few enhancements and a single feat chosen from a list. Warchanter is the only one that requires you to have TWO feats, which is unfair. It's true that Warchanter possibly has the best bonus, but it not good enough to justify spending two feats to qualify. Allow someone to get Warchanter if they have either Weapon Focus OR Power Attack.

xmdmae
06-26-2007, 12:13 PM
...
Chaos Hammer, Order's Wrath, Unholy Blight... Very interesting spells, yet completely worthless...

PLEASE review these spells and ALL direct damage spells... Max of 5d8 damage or even 10d6 against the appropriate outsiders just isn't enough...

You can't inflate all the hit points of all the monsters from D&D norms... and then leave the damage spells AT D&D norms... The damage spells need to be inflated somewhat as well...

Damage does get inflated with potency and enhancements. I believe currently there is an enhancement line for clerics that improves Good damage spells. It should be expanded to include all alignment based damage or these spells will not see any use.

EspyLacopa
06-26-2007, 12:17 PM
I'm concerned that a 1st level spell is able to negate a 4th level spell, and that this spell basically makes you immune to a caster that specced the "force" line of enhancements.

What is the logic behind making a long duration first level spell that makes you immune to every force spell in the game?

Yea, Nightshield in PnP doesn't do the Force Missiles part. . .just Magic Missile.

GeneralDiomedes
06-26-2007, 12:17 PM
Damage does get inflated with potency and enhancements. I believe currently there is an enhancement line for clerics that improves Good damage spells. It should be expanded to include all alignment based damage or these spells will not see any use.

Some spells are not meant for player use ;)

Impaqt
06-26-2007, 12:22 PM
Order's Wrath
Evocation [Lawful]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash lawful power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to chaotic creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to chaotic outsiders) and dazes them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the daze effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not dazed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to lawful creatures, and can only be cast by lawful or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a chaotic caster.

Wow.. A Year and a Half into the game and Suddenly we get hit with a Spell that is Allignment Restricted and NO Opposing spell in the list??

GramercyRiff
06-26-2007, 12:26 PM
Does Warchanter's boost to the song affect everyone or just the Warchanter?

How does taking power attack and weapon focus help anyone in inspiring OTHERS to do better? Now if you want to have the best song, you must take power attack and weapon focus. Bards are already feat starved as it is. And now it's impossible to be a casting type Bard and not have the best song possible (unless Warchanter's song boost affects only the Warchanter).

This isn't operation bard love, it's operation bard pigeon hole. You're forcing us to take sub optimal feats and enhancements (on all 3). I'm severely disappointed in these bard enhancements.

SilverSong
06-26-2007, 12:29 PM
Nightshield
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute/level

Grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves; this resistance bonus increases to +2 at caster level 6th and +3 at caster level 9th. In addition, this spell negates Magic Missile and Force Missile attacks directed at you.


I am very happy to see this, I was so tried have having to use my shield cookies or other items to cast a protection from Magic Missiles and Force Missile since the sheild spell in game does protect against Force Missile.

Yes this spell does devate from the PnP one, but by only adding Force Missile protection. For that matter, since I just looked it up the Sheild spell doesn't protect against Force Missile either, but it does in DDO.

I say leave it be, it can always be dispelled off someone.

stockwizard5
06-26-2007, 12:31 PM
Spellsinger:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell

"Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.

This has to be the most powerful thing potentially ever put in the game ...

1. Feat: Skill Focus Concentration (2/3 ~ 67%)
2. Feat: Skill Focus UMD (2/3 ~ 67%)
3. Feat: Mental Toughness
4. Feat: Improved Mental Toughness (35/65 ~ 50%)
---------------------------------------------------
Total: SF UMD, MT, IMT are common (SF-C not so much) so ~ 2.5 Feats

5. Feat: Spell Focus (Evocation) - Moral Bonus Stacks
6. Feat: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
7. Feat: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
8. Feat: Spell Focus (Illusion)
9. Feat: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10. Feat: Spell Focus (Enchantment)
11. Feat: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
----------------------------------------------------
Total: Assume casters regularly use 2 (e.g. PK and FoD) ~ 2 Feats

9. Enhancements: Improved Heightening I,II,III (10% ~ Current Benefit)
10. Enhancements: Improved Maximizing I,II,III
11. Enhancements: Improved Empowering I,II,III
12. Enhancements: Improved Enlarging I,II,II
13. Enhancements: Improved Empower Healing I,II,III
------------------------------------------------------
Total: Again assume casters use 2 although many use more (e.g. Emp/Max) ~ 24 AP

So for one Level 6 Enhancement (for what 4 APs maybe) the gain is 4.5 feats and 24 APs for all casters in party? Let's see - take out CHA I,II,III and Energy I,II,III,IV and that approaches the TOTAL FEATS and ENHANCEMENTS that Sorcerers get for the ENTIRE 14 LEVELS :)

Of course Bard Attack and Damage Buff >> Same for Fighters so maybe this is equiv - I WANT A SPELLSINGER BARD IN MY PARTY!

Zenako
06-26-2007, 12:37 PM
This has to be the most powerful thing potentially ever put in the game ...

1. Feat: Skill Focus Concentration (2/3 ~ 67%)
2. Feat: Skill Focus UMD (2/3 ~ 67%)
3. Feat: Mental Toughness
4. Feat: Improved Mental Toughness (35/65 ~ 50%)
---------------------------------------------------
Total: SF UMD, MT, IMT are common (SF-C not so much) so ~ 2.5 Feats

5. Feat: Spell Focus (Evocation) - Moral Bonus Stacks
6. Feat: Spell Focus (Necromancy)
7. Feat: Spell Focus (Conjuration)
8. Feat: Spell Focus (Illusion)
9. Feat: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
10. Feat: Spell Focus (Enchantment)
11. Feat: Spell Focus (Transmutation)
----------------------------------------------------
Total: Assume casters regularly use 2 (e.g. PK and FoD) ~ 2 Feats

9. Enhancements: Improved Heightening I,II,III (10% ~ Current Benefit)
10. Enhancements: Improved Maximizing I,II,III
11. Enhancements: Improved Empowering I,II,III
12. Enhancements: Improved Enlarging I,II,II
13. Enhancements: Improved Empower Healing I,II,III
------------------------------------------------------
Total: Again assume casters use 2 although many use more (e.g. Emp/Max) ~ 24 AP

So for one Level 6 Enhancement (for what 4 APs maybe) the gain is 4.5 feats and 24 APs for all casters in party? Let's see - take out CHA I,II,III and Energy I,II,III,IV and that approaches the TOTAL FEATS and ENHANCEMENTS that Sorcerers get for the ENTIRE 14 LEVELS :confused:

Thats exactly why I mentioned the SIGNIFICANT SYNERGY of this Enhancement to the POWER of a party....Bard Spellsingers gonna be VERY VERY popular on some quests now since I expect those boosts would stack with the other ones that casters might already have...

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:40 PM
Wow.. A Year and a Half into the game and Suddenly we get hit with a Spell that is Allignment Restricted and NO Opposing spell in the list??
Obviously, Chaos Hammer is the opposing spell to Order's Wrath.

Yes, it's in the list. Scroll up and read it.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:41 PM
Just kidding about the STK situation, but I do expect it to happen elsewhere. We will find that the Magic Missile we once relied on so heavily, will start gathering dust.
Erm, who relies on Magic Missile? Aside from a few bosses with broad energy resistance, who ever uses it? It's not good either in DPS or DPM.

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 12:42 PM
Wow.. A Year and a Half into the game and Suddenly we get hit with a Spell that is Alignment Restricted and NO Opposing spell in the list??Did you miss Chaos Hammer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chaosHammer.htm)? Or do you mean counter-spell to resist? Maybe Protection from Law/Chaos are coming soon.

P.S. Lol, Gimpster. we are on the same timing today.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:43 PM
You unleash lawful power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to chaotic creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to chaotic outsiders) and dazes them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the daze effect.
It's back. You can now cast Order's Wrath for clerics to temporarily stun enemies, if you were upset that Holy Smite got changed into blindness.

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 12:46 PM
It's back. You can now cast Order's Wrath for clerics to temporarily stun enemies, if you were upset that Holy Smite got changed into blindness.Provided that the enemies are Chaotic. Neutral and Lawful enemies are not affected by the stun. But, having the option is nice!

Missing_Minds
06-26-2007, 12:51 PM
Erm, who relies on Magic Missile? Aside from a few bosses with broad energy resistance, who ever uses it? It's not good either in DPS or DPM.

*giggles like a school girl, knowing several Sorcs that seem to use that spell exclusively* I needed the laugh.

But seriously, besides low level arcanes, yeah, I'm in agreement. It is good for guarantied hits. Assuming the data lag doesn't cause a miss cast.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 12:51 PM
Provided that the enemies are Chaotic. Neutral and Lawful enemies are not affected by the stun. But, having the option is nice!

Let's hope this doesn't work the same way that Neutral characters are immune to Unholy damage :rolleyes:

TreknaQudane
06-26-2007, 12:52 PM
He's hoping they Nix Protection from Evil, make it Protection from Alignment and let you select Good, Evil, Lawful, Chaotic.

EspyLacopa
06-26-2007, 12:52 PM
Chaos Hammer, Order's Wrath, Unholy Blight... Very interesting spells, yet completely worthless...

Well, to its credit, those spells are all Domain only spells. (Chaos 4, Law 4, Evil 4 respectively)

They fit in as well as Holy Smite does now (Good 4 domain spell, and it's only available to clerics with that Good domain).

And it should be noted, that each one does a bonus effect other than damage.
Chaos Hammer: Slow 1d6 rounds (-Movement Speed and Attack speed, -1 Attack/AC)
Order's Wrath: Daze 1 round (Can take no actions0
Unholy Blight: Sickened 1d4 rounds (-2 attack, weapon damage, saves, skills)
Holy Smite: Blindness 1 round (-2 AC, Lose Dex bonus to AC, move at half speed, all opponents have full concealment)

Impaqt
06-26-2007, 12:53 PM
Did you miss Chaos Hammer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chaosHammer.htm)? Or do you mean counter-spell to resist? Maybe Protection from Law/Chaos are coming soon.

P.S. Lol, Gimpster. we are on the same timing today.
Yup, I did.. False Alarm... :o

Missing_Minds
06-26-2007, 12:53 PM
Does Warchanter's boost to the song affect everyone or just the Warchanter?

How does taking power attack and weapon focus help anyone from inspiring OTHERS to do better? Now if you want to have the best song, you must take power attack and weapon focus. Bards are already feat starved as it is. And now it's impossible to be a casting type Bard and not have the best song possible (unless Warchanter's song boost affects on the Warchanter).

This isn't operation bard love, it's operation bard pigeon hole. You're forcing us to take sub optimal feats and enhancements (on all 3). I'm severely disappointed in these bard enhancements.

You do realize that the bard trio of love there are prestige classes yes? PcRs normally require that you take stuff that you ordinarily wouldn't.

The way it read, the warchanter's new song would effect everyone within hearing distance. I would expect its duration to last a long as your standard song for the bard that sings it.

What I want to know is if the DR 5/- from a warchanter would actually stack with a barbarian's DR that is also a /- type. If so, dang... I need to hop to another server to start working up new characters. :)

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 12:55 PM
Let's hope this doesn't work the same way that Neutral characters are immune to Unholy damage :rolleyes:Already mentioned above. :)

katanaflame
06-26-2007, 12:56 PM
Spells for Paladins:

Angelskin
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Pal 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: Lawful Good creature touched (self or ally)
Duration: 6 seconds/level

The subject gains damage reduction 5/evil.

Holy Sword
Evocation [Good]
Level: Pal 4
Components: V, S, M

Channels holy power to turn a Blessed Cold Iron weapon into a +5 Holy Cold Iron weapon that grants its wielder a continuous Protection From Evil effect while equipped. The holy weapon is permanent, but is destroyed on dungeon exit. The House Jorasco Divine Reagent Vendor carries Blessed Cold Iron Greatswords, Bastard Swords, Longswords, Shortswords, Scimitars, Warhammers, Rapiers, Dwarven Waraxes, Khopeshes, Mauls, and Heavy Picks


I would like some real feed back from a dev on these I will find out as soon as I get home.

dose angelskin stack with adamantine armor?
is there any extras on holy sword ie x crit 15-20 crit string

Freeman
06-26-2007, 01:02 PM
Judging from many of the complaints, I must be the only player in the game that doesn't have a dozen or so +5 Holy Cold Iron weapons sitting in the bank on each of my characters.

GramercyRiff
06-26-2007, 01:04 PM
You do realize that the bard trio of love there are prestige classes yes? PcRs normally require that you take stuff that you ordinarily wouldn't.

The way it read, the warchanter's new song would effect everyone within hearing distance. I would expect its duration to last a long as your standard song for the bard that sings it.

What I want to know is if the DR 5/- from a warchanter would actually stack with a barbarian's DR that is also a /- type. If so, dang... I need to hop to another server to start working up new characters. :)

Different sources of DR never stack (or shouldn't anyway).

Yeah I know it's based on a PrC. Warchanter is about as sub optimal as you can get compared to the uber Sublime Chord. Turbine still could have changed the prereqs. It's not the end of the world, just disappointing.

The question about the Warchanter's song was for a Dev.

Taking a second look at Spellsinger makes it a lot less bleak than I thought it was awhile ago.

Cedrica-the-Bard
06-26-2007, 01:04 PM
Upon further thought: POWER ATTACK???? Why that particular feat? Why not Martial Weapons or something, or Improved Critical? At lease open it up for those Bards who took a level in Fighter or Ranger and not just Barbarian. That would make more sense to me... Not all Battle Bards are 2-handed weapon weilding Bardbarians, some of us actually like to go sword and board...

My Battle Bard took a level of Fighter, uses Dwarven axes and sheild, has weapon focus slashing so he could get Improved Critical slashing (why is that anyway? it doesn't indicate there is a pre-req for Improved Crit, yet there is???). I have no desire to pick up Power Attack at all! Sillyness...

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 01:05 PM
I would like some real feed back from a dev on these I will find out as soon as I get home.

1)does angelskin stack with adamantine armor?
2)is there any extras on holy sword ie x crit 15-20 crit string1) Probably not, DR does not stack. (But will replace. ie., DR5 vs evil. DR3 vs. physical)
2) The extras are +5, Holy, Protection from Evil. Weapon should use normal crit range and multiplier of weapon type, with ImpCrit feats applying normally.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 01:07 PM
Upon further thought: POWER CRITICAL???? Why that particular feat? Why not Martial Weapons or something, or Improved Critical? At lease open it up for those Bards who took a level in Fighter or Ranger and not just Barbarian. That would make more sense to me... Not all Battle Bards are 2-handed weapon weilding Bardbarians, some of us actually like to go sword and board...

My Battle Bard took a level of Fighter, uses Dwarven axes and sheild, has weapon focus slashing so he could get Improved Critical slashing (why is that anyway? it doesn't indicate there is a pre-req for Improved Crit, yet there is???). I have no desire to pick up Power Attack at all! Sillyness...

I agree the requirements are way to narrow I have a TWF battle Bard and there is no way I can fit in two extra feats.

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 01:08 PM
Upon further thought: POWER CRITICAL???? Why that particular feat?Reread, its Power Attack, which is available to all classes; BAB+0, STR 13. I agree that its an over-the-top feat requirement. Weapon Focus and *something* is reasonable because of the lower AP pre-reqs. But, Warchanter as stated clearly favors melee. Maybe it could be WF: AND Power Attack OR Weapon Finesse OR TWF.

But, I would like to see WF: Ranged and Thrown as options with the OR being something ranged related (eg., OR Precise Shot). There needs to be options for DEX based characters in the game. STR and melee, over and over is getting tiresome.

Kraldor
06-26-2007, 01:09 PM
Chaos Hammer
Evocation [Chaotic]
Level: Clr 4
Components: V, S
Saving Throw: Will partial, see text.

You unleash chaotic power to smite your enemies. This spell deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) to lawful creatures (or 1d6 points of damage per caster level (max 10d6) to lawful outsiders) and slows them for a short period of time. A successful Will save reduces the damage by half and negates the slow effect. The spell deals only half damage to creatures that are neither lawful nor chaotic, and they are not slowed. Such creatures can reduce the damage by half again (down to one quarter) with a successful Will save. This spell deals no damage to chaotic creatures, and can only be cast by chaotic or neutral casters - it has no effect when cast by a lawful caster.


Were the orbs in xorian cipher casting this? I seem to remember a graphic of a large warhammer slamming down with the new chaotic effect

Cedrica-the-Bard
06-26-2007, 01:11 PM
Reread, its Power Attack, which is available to all classes; BAB+0, STR 13. I agree that its an over-the-top feat requirement. Weapon Focus and *something* is reasonable because of the lower AP pre-reqs. But, Warchanter as stated clearly favors melee.


Fixed.

MeCrazy
06-26-2007, 01:12 PM
The Bard enhancements look pretty hard to meet in my opinion. I was looking forward to them but I need to take 3 feats do this do that blah blah. Probably can't take any with my battle bard I don't have the feats to spare.

Spellsinger looks great for CC caster Bards the others seem kind of not worth it.

how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the party

Dragonhyde
06-26-2007, 01:13 PM
I love the new enhancement lines but still wish that some decent bard only spells for cc and (oh my) offensive spells would get added.

EspyLacopa
06-26-2007, 01:18 PM
*giggles like a school girl, knowing several Sorcs that seem to use that spell exclusively* I needed the laugh.

But seriously, besides low level arcanes, yeah, I'm in agreement. It is good for guarantied hits. Assuming the data lag doesn't cause a miss cast.

Get with the times. Force Missiles is better than Magic Missile in nearly every way.

FM: 48 damage, 25 sp, 2.75 cooldown (1.92 DPSp, 17.45 DPS)
MM: 22.5 damage, 10 sp, 2 cooldown (2.25 DPSp, 11.25 DPS)

Toss in the new cooldowns:

FM: 48 damage, 25 sp, 2.25 cooldown (1.92 DPSp, 21.33 DPS)
MM: 22.5 damage, 10 sp, 1.5 cooldown (2.25 DPSp, 15 DPS)

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 01:18 PM
how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the party

I simply don't have the spare feats not saying I wouldn't like it. Two feats are a lot and I had neither in my build.

MeCrazy
06-26-2007, 01:19 PM
Most of these look good. However, I don't agree with requiring the Song Magic or Lyric enhancements. These only benefit a small number of bard spells, and many bards don't have any of them, even if they are focused on spellcasting. Total cost to unlock: 10 Action points + 1 feat.

For Virtuoso, one of the primary benefits was the ability to unlock Music of the Dead at an earlier level. However, you made the prerequisites for Virtuoso either two feats that are virtually never used(SF: Perform or Negotiator), or Extra Song IV, which you can't take until much later. Essentially, anyone who wants to take this at level 6 will likely have to take a feat to qualify, then swap it out once the get Extra Song IV. Total cost to unlock: Either 9 AP + 1 Feat, or 14 Action Points.

The Warchanter looks better, but the prerequisites for it are a bit steep also. All of the other new enhancements only require one feat, while Warchanter requires two. Total cost to unlock: 6 Action Points + 2 Feats.

I'll likely be taking the Spellsinger enhancement, but I'm going to have to add in several enhancements that do nothing for me in order to get access to it, simply because I don't have Cure spells and my only sonic spell does a d8 damage.



however a lot of bards do have cure spells, my current bard has all these pre-reqs already....i would argue most bards can heal

Cedrica-the-Bard
06-26-2007, 01:22 PM
how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the party

Forcing a Bard to take Power Attack as a feat if we aren't already designed that way is what makes it not worth it. The BAB already suffers for a Battle Bard, the songs make up for that loss by a couple of points (and a DP clickie helps for about 40 seconds). But having Power Attack on just turns a buffed Battle Bard into a non-buffed fighter, ya-frickin-hoo. So turn it off you say? Sure, I'll turn it off and keep it off so I can kill stuff. All that does is turn it into a wasted feat so I can get another +1 to attack and +2 to damage and DR for the party? Nope, not worth a wasted feat, imho. Too bad too, I was looking forward to it :(

Freeman
06-26-2007, 01:22 PM
how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the party

Provided you have the two feats that it requires, which most pure bards don't. Some bard/barbs will definitely like this one though, but I think have two feats as pre-reqs is a bit much. If anything, bump up the Inspired Attack and Damage requirements. Still, all three of the enhancement lines seem determined to force bards to take things they wouldn't normally take. The rogue lines were the same, but in those cases, it usually only required spending a few action points. The problem I have with these is that they all require a large investment, either in action points or feats, that aren't directly related to the benefits of the new enhancement. Adding a requirement to take Bard: Perform II to Virtuoso is just a complete waste of action points, while the Feat choices are either useless or ridiculous.(Negotiator or Skill Focus: Perform? Two great choices for feats there...)

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 01:26 PM
how is warchanter not worth it, thats what a bards about....now your courage can be +7 to hit, +8 to damage, and you can give DR to the partyI think too many people got caught up with spending 3 dinky APs on Inspired Bravery II. (It's the feat requirements that concerns me). The costs are steep and too geared to melee only, but I would love to have a Warchanter in the party. :)

Freeman
06-26-2007, 01:30 PM
however a lot of bards do have cure spells, my current bard has all these pre-reqs already....i would argue most bards can heal

The problem I have is that this enhancement will determine what spells I carry. Instead of picking your enhancements based on your spell list, bards will be forced to either take spells that the enhancements will work with or carry useless enhancements. If they wanted to add something that benefits bards who are focused on spellcasting, why set it so narrowly that only bards with certain spells will be able to take full advantage of it?

Zenako
06-26-2007, 01:31 PM
Have you ever looked closely at many of the prereqs for a lot of Prestige Classes. They are riffe with unrelated or suboptimal demands. Not saying that the choices of D&D justify DDO but that there is a relationship and precedent in the paper game.

Frankly I think most bards who are drawn heavily to one of those lines will generally have most if not all of the requirements already in place (and any requirements based on enhancements are trivial to achieve with more or less at will revisions available for a $$$ cost IIRC).

I think that some of the powers granted by those lines might actually get toned down before release. Spellsinger for one. The Bard and his entire Party get huge benefits from this enhancement, on the order of multiple free feats for everyone. Youzaaa...

LordDamax
06-26-2007, 01:44 PM
Ok too many posts in 6 pages to reply to.

First, for the OMG Nightsield stops force missiles??? Overpowered!!

Shield does that. Shield has ALWAYS done that. It's also available on a wand in the tent that anyone with a UMD of 1 or better can use (ok, not well, but they can use it).

Next, warchanters and ranged... Um... Warchanters seem to be based off the norse war chaters/skalds/battle-poets... I believe its a ripoff of a prestige class of the same name.

Just because something is put in the game doesnt mean everyone should benefit from it equally. Norse Skalds were barbarians that chanted, sung battle hymns, and composed epic battle poetry. They didnt throw daggers and fight with a bow.

I think the prereqs, while steep, fit perfectly with the class. It grants an extra rage per day, of COURSE it's meant for bard/barbarian multiclasses. And what barbarian in their right mind doesnt wield a 2 handed weapon, let alone DOES use a bow?

Speaking of which, to the person who knows the sorc who casts MM exclusively... um... educate him. The damage output for time, and for damage per mana spent is ABYSSMAL. Its only benefit is it's almost universally unstoppable.


As for all the 'useless' prereqs... go check out prestige classes. They have them all the time. One of the prereqs for Blackguard, the Anti-paladin, the class that rewards fallen paladins for converting to evil is 5 ranks in Tumble. Sure, a rogue could be a blackguard, but there are massive rewards for fallen paladins. And it REQUIRES 5 ranks in Tumble. What paladin in their right mind puts points in tumble?

Of course enhancements THIS powerful have stupid prereqs.... Spellsinger gibving the entire PARTY -10% on mana use AND +1 to all save DCs? Thats insane. +1 to hit and +2 to damage AND DR 5 to EVERYONE in your group? Of course warchanter prereqs are sick.

Virtuoso isnt as bad, but it's still extremely powerful. A fascinate that debuffs everything with NO SAVE? Thats powerful as well.

I dunno I see a lot of whining and not a lot of yay. I started rolling a bardbarian a few weeks ago he just hit 14. i'm respecing out a feat and am SALIVATING over warchanter.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 01:46 PM
Have you ever looked closely at many of the prereqs for a lot of Prestige Classes. They are riffe with unrelated or suboptimal demands. Not saying that the choices of D&D justify DDO but that there is a relationship and precedent in the paper game.

Frankly I think most bards who are drawn heavily to one of those lines will generally have most if not all of the requirements already in place (and any requirements based on enhancements are trivial to achieve with more or less at will revisions available for a $$$ cost IIRC).

I think that some of the powers granted by those lines might actually get toned down before release. Spellsinger for one. The Bard and his entire Party get huge benefits from this enhancement, on the order of multiple free feats for everyone. Youzaaa...

Sub-Optimal I can deal with. Completely useless is the biggest issue I have.(Perform requirements for Virtuoso) I also dislike that the Spellsinger enhancement will force me to alter my spell list if I don't want to be carrying useless enhancements.

The enhancement changes might be trivial to achieve, but the cost is not trivial at all. For every enhancement I have to take to gain access to one of these, I have to give up something else. On Freeman, I will have to give up at least nine action points that I currently spend elsewhere.(That includes the cost to actually purchase the new enhancement) For the benefits, I will most likely do that, but don't think it is simply a money issue.

Spellsinger is extremely powerful. However, I don't think it should be toned down. Fighters already received a huge bonus from having a bard in the party. All of the bard enhancements were geared towards making physical combat more powerful. Mages drew little to no direct benefit from a bard. This will help balance the scales for them for a change.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 01:50 PM
Reread, its Power Attack, which is available to all classes; BAB+0, STR 13. I agree that its an over-the-top feat requirement. Weapon Focus and *something* is reasonable because of the lower AP pre-reqs.

Here's a condensed chart of the requirements for the new bard options:

Spellsinger
Enh: Energy 2, Concen 2, Magic 2, Lyric 1
Feat: One of Mag Training, MT, SF Enchant, Empower, Heighten, Max, Extend
Total to qualify: 4 enhancements + 1 feat

Virtuoso
Enh: Song 2, Perform 2, Lingering 1, Charisma 1
Feat: SF Perform OR Negotiator OR Enhance Song 4
Total to qualify: 4 enhancements + 1 feat, or 5 enhancements

Warchanter
Enh: Attack 1, Damage 1, Bravery 2
Feat: PA AND (WF Slash or WF Pierce or WF Bludgeon)
Total to qualify: 3 enhancement + 2 feats

Summarizing, two of the three are 4 enh + 1 feat, while warchanter is 3 enh + 2 feats. DDO characters have much more freedom in their AP enhancements than with feats, so Warchanter is a much more expensive option than the other two. However, it also gives probably the biggest benefit, so maybe that is OK. My instinctive suggestion, though, is that Warchanter be changed to require only one feat, which can be PA or WF, and to have the enhancement requirements increased slightly.

However, let's look closer at the costs for these things, because a requirement that a bard is already likely to have trained is hardly really a cost at all.

Spellsinger
Nearly all bards have Extend Spell and Energy 2, and many bards have Song Magic 1 or 2. They probably do not have Skill Concentration 2 or Lyric 1. So effectively you have to "waste" 2 enhancements to qualify. I will reiterate: Spellsinger is a powerful effect, but since virtually every bard already has Extend spell, it essentially has no cost in feats.

Virtuoso
Nearly all bards have Extra 2, Lingering 1, and Charisma 1. They do not have Perform 2, SF Perform, or Negotiator. And they may or may not have Extra 4. Effectively you must waste one feat on Negotiator (which gives you Haggle, so it's not totally useless) and increase Extra Song up to 4, which is not useless either. So the cost is 1 wasted feat or 1 partially wasted enhancement, and another totally wasted enhancement. Realistically, bards will be more willing to blow APs on more songs than a feat on +2 haggle. Furthermore, the benefit from Virtuoso is quite low compared to the other two options.

Warchanter
All bards have Attack 1 and Damage 1. But fairly few have Bravery 2, Power Attack, or Weapon Focus. You'd have to spend two feats on things which moderately improve your combat power (not useless), and 3 APs for enhancements to fear saves (which is useless, because a bard generally gives everyone fear immunity via Greater Heroism). However, for the 2 feats and 3 extra APs you can give allies an extra +1 attack and +2 damage, which is very nice.

Summary
Virtuoso: real cost 2 enhancement + 0 feats
Spellsinger: real cost 2 enhancements + 0 feats
Warchanter: real cost 1 enhancement + 2 feats

Freeman
06-26-2007, 01:54 PM
As for all the 'useless' prereqs... go check out prestige classes. They have them all the time. One of the prereqs for Blackguard, the Anti-paladin, the class that rewards fallen paladins for converting to evil is 5 ranks in Tumble. Sure, a rogue could be a blackguard, but there are massive rewards for fallen paladins. And it REQUIRES 5 ranks in Tumble. What paladin in their right mind puts points in tumble?

Perhaps you don't quite understand what I mean by useless. A blackguard with 5 ranks in Tumble can tumble better. A bard with Bard: Perform I and II can... do absolutely nothing any differently than a bard without them. There is absolutely no benefit from taking this enhancement. None. Zero. The action points are completely wasted. If they want to make them have a purpose, then make Fascinate work the way it should. Until then, don't force people to take things simply to give them a purpose.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 01:54 PM
One of the prereqs for Blackguard, the Anti-paladin, the class that rewards fallen paladins for converting to evil is 5 ranks in Tumble. Sure, a rogue could be a blackguard, but there are massive rewards for fallen paladins. And it REQUIRES 5 ranks in Tumble. What paladin in their right mind puts points in tumble?
Haha. That would be hilarious if it were true.

But it's not. The requirements for Blackguard are Hide 5, Religion 2, Cleave, Improved Sunder, and the obligatory peaceful contact with an evil outsider.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 01:57 PM
Perhaps you don't quite understand what I mean by useless. A blackguard with 5 ranks in Tumble can tumble better. A bard with Bard: Perform I and II can... do absolutely nothing any differently than a bard without them. There is absolutely no benefit from taking this enhancement. None. Zero.
Does it increase the power of your Song of Freedom to dispel Symbol of Pain? It might- I haven't really tested.


Until then, don't force people to take things simply to give them a purpose.
That is not necessarily bad. A valid game design can have feats or enhancements whose only purpose is to serve as prereqs for other enhancements, indirectly increasing their cost.

CSFurious
06-26-2007, 01:57 PM
welcome, to DDO where the game is in a constant state of evolution

i completely agree that your present bard might not be able to be a good "warchanter"

however, i believe that if you create a build, e.g., 10bard/2barbarian/2fighter 32-point human or dwarf, you will see that there is now a good alternative to the drow cc-specialist or the 2-weapon drow-finesse bard builds

you will basically have a "bardbarian" who makes his whole party even better at "war" than the regular bard & can keep himself raged, hasted & blurred/displaced, deal damage as an off-tank, & can also heal himself all at the same time

actually, if you have a "warchanter" & a "spellsinger" in the same party, that party IMO will be unstoppable

it sounds pretty awesome to me & i cannot wait until July when i can roll one up


Forcing a Bard to take Power Attack as a feat if we aren't already designed that way is what makes it not worth it. The BAB already suffers for a Battle Bard, the songs make up for that loss by a couple of points (and a DP clickie helps for about 40 seconds). But having Power Attack on just turns a buffed Battle Bard into a non-buffed fighter, ya-frickin-hoo. So turn it off you say? Sure, I'll turn it off and keep it off so I can kill stuff. All that does is turn it into a wasted feat so I can get another +1 to attack and +2 to damage and DR for the party? Nope, not worth a wasted feat, imho. Too bad too, I was looking forward to it :(

Freeman
06-26-2007, 01:58 PM
Virtuoso
Nearly all bards have Extra 2, Lingering 1, and Charisma 1. They do not have Perform 2, SF Perform, or Negotiator. And they may or may not have Extra 4. Effectively you must waste one feat on Negotiator (which gives you Haggle, so it's not totally useless) and increase Extra Song up to 4, which is not useless either. So the cost is 1 wasted feat and 1 partially wasted enhancement. Furthermore, the benefit from Virtuoso is quite low compared to the other two options.

The feat will only be wasted until the bard can access Extra Song IV. At that point, it can be swapped out for something more useful, at least. And for a bard that already has Extra Song IV, there wouldn't be any feat cost. However, as you said, the benefits aren't nearly as great for this line.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 02:01 PM
Does it increase the power of your Song of Freedom to dispel Symbol of Pain? It might- I haven't really tested.


That is not necessarily bad. A valid game design can have feats or enhancements whose only purpose is to serve as prereqs for other enhancements, indirectly increasing their cost.

No. Currently, the only purpose of perform is to gain access to new bard songs. For that purpose, the only thing that counts is the number of ranks in the skill. Enhancements, feats, or items that boost your perform have absolutely no use in the game currently. Yes, that is bad. I could understand a minor benefit leading to a much greater one. If Fascinate worked correctly, I wouldn't have an issue with this. However, currently it doesn't. Until it does, anything that adds to perform is useless. Making it a requirement for something else means you are forcing people to waste action points or feats for something that has no purpose. Either remove the requirement or give it a purpose.

Coldin
06-26-2007, 02:02 PM
Perform does increase the DC of a Suggestion song, I'm pretty sure.

Perform should be changed to affect the save DC on fascinate as well, and also allow you to play music for money.Type /perform, and start playing a continous loop of music, and earn 1 cp * Perform per 5 minutes or something.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 02:04 PM
Perform does increase the DC of a Suggestion song, I'm pretty sure.

Perform should be changed to affect the save DC on fascinate as well, and also allow you to play music for money.Type /perform, and start playing a continous loop of music, and earn 1 cp * Perform per 5 minutes or something.

Suggestion DC is 10 + 1/2 Bard level + Charisma modifier.

How many times do I have to say it, people? Perform is ONLY used to unlock bard songs. Enhancements, feats, and items that add to it have absolutely no use in the game currently.

Maldini
06-26-2007, 02:04 PM
Seems a little underwhelming, but the Nightshield will be useful for Battle Clerics I guess. Beats out a lot of the other level 1 spells anyway.

And the rest of us still have to run around with a million shield clickies :)

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 02:06 PM
Enhancements, feats, and items that add to it have absolutely no use in the game currently.
Technically, according to this announcement, the Skill Perform 2 enhancement will have at least one use in the game: it qualifies you for Virtuoso.

You might not agree that it's appropriate for an enhancement to do nothing but be a prereq, however it's not 100% useless.

After all, Fighter level 3 is worse than Barb level 1 in every way. But Fighter 3 isn't useless, because it qualifies you to take Fighter 4 and get bonus feats. Or look at the Mobility feat in DDO: it virtually has no use except to qualify you for Spring Attack.

Coldin
06-26-2007, 02:10 PM
Suggestion DC is 10 + 1/2 Bard level + Charisma modifier.

How many times do I have to say it, people? Perform is ONLY used to unlock bard songs. Enhancements, feats, and items that add to it have absolutely no use in the game currently.

It is? Guess I can just put that perform +10 ring in the bank then.

In that case then, please, please, please, give perform some use.

For example


Countersong (Su (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities))

A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) skill can use his music or poetics to counter magical effects that depend on sound (but not spells that simply have verbal components). Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by a sonic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#sonicAttacks) or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard’s Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) check result in place of its saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the bard’s Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) check result for the save. Countersong has no effect against effects that don’t allow saves. The bard may keep up the countersong for 10 rounds.



Fascinate (Sp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities))

A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) skill can use his music or poetics to cause one or more creatures to become fascinated (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fascinated) with him. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 90 feet, able to see and hear the bard, and able to pay attention to him. The bard must also be able to see the creature. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can target one additional creature with a single use of this ability.
To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#will) against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#savingThrows) succeeds, the bard cannot attempt to fascinate that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play and concentrate (up to a maximum of 1 round per bard level). While fascinated, a target takes a -4 penalty on skill checks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillChecks) made as reactions, such as Listen (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/listen.htm) and Spot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spot.htm) checks. Any potential threat requires the bard to make another Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) check and allows the creature a new saving throw against a DC equal to the new Perform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/perform.htm) check result.
Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.

Drider
06-26-2007, 02:11 PM
Judging from many of the complaints, I must be the only player in the game that doesn't have a dozen or so +5 Holy Cold Iron weapons sitting in the bank on each of my characters.


Well make that 2... since I don't even have one.

Cedrica-the-Bard
06-26-2007, 02:18 PM
One other thing I’d like to point out, with each of these lines the comment reads:

…ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to :

1. Spellsinger: grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC’s and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.
2. Virtuoso: to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a –2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken (in other words, a super-duper fascinate clickie!)
3. Warchanter: grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-.

So, it appears to me that say you have 18 Bard songs, for two of the above lines (spellsinger and Warchanter) you would have to sing 3 bard songs at the initial buffing stage rather than 2. You’d sing IC, IG and the super buff as indicated above. Therefore, you’ll be going through a lot more of your bard songs in a quest than you do right now. If your songs last 6 minutes, currently you have 56 minutes until you need a shrine (assuming you aren’t fascinating anything). With these lines, you’ll have 36 minutes before you need to get those songs back.

Not really a bad thing, I find both of my Bards have plenty of songs except in certain quests. It also makes sense that the Virtuoso gets extra songs as part of their line because they will be using their super-duper song to fascinate with as opposed to using the regular fascinate clickie…

Make sense?

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 02:22 PM
If your songs last 6 minutes, currently you have 56 minutes until you need a shrine (assuming you aren’t fascinating anything). With these lines, you’ll have 36 minutes before you need to get those songs back.
We can't really assume that these new songs have the same 6 minute durations as existing bard songs.

Cedrica-the-Bard
06-26-2007, 02:27 PM
We can't really assume that these new songs have the same 6 minute durations as existing bard songs.

I'm going to assume that is the case. The Lingering Song line applies to all Bard songs, so I would bet a vorpal it would apply to these as well... :cool:

wiglin
06-26-2007, 02:28 PM
I like the new enhancements. I will take warchanter on my mellee bard, and I will take spellsinger on my soon to be 32-point caster bard.

Good Job Turbine.

I do not mind the steep requirements. If you don't think they're worth the requirements then don't get them. It is a trade off. Everything in this game doesn't have to be about being uber.

Its funny how you have people complaining about the +1 weekends and everyone having uber loot making the game too easy and bla bla bla.

Then you have others complaining about enhancements, that taking feats or other enhancements are worthless, and they don't want to gimp their characters just to get a new enhancement.

Coming from NWN 1 I was let down big time when I played this game in beta. I had high hopes like everyone else. I learned to just enjoy the game for what it is. If at any point it isn't fun, just move on to a new game.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 02:28 PM
Technically, according to this announcement, the Skill Perform 2 enhancement will have at least one use in the game: it qualifies you for Virtuoso.

You might not agree that it's appropriate for an enhancement to do nothing but be a prereq, however it's not 100% useless.

After all, Fighter level 3 is worse than Barb level 1 in every way. But Fighter 3 isn't useless, because it qualifies you to take Fighter 4 and get bonus feats. Or look at the Mobility feat in DDO: it virtually has no use except to qualify you for Spring Attack.

Mobility gives you an AC bonus while tumbling. Fighter level 3 gives you +1 BAB, 10 hp, and +1 to Reflex and Will saves. Perform enhancements and feats give you absolutely nothing. Zero. I said earlier I wouldn't mind sub-optimal requirements. But requirements that exist solely to be requirements are another thing entirely.

wiglin
06-26-2007, 02:33 PM
Perform enhancements and feats open up the opportunity to expand your bard into new realms with the new enhancements, so I would hardly say they are worthless.

JayDubya
06-26-2007, 02:35 PM
Spawn Screen
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: One Ally/level
Duration: 1 minute/level

Protects you and your allies from rising as spawns of common undead after death. Certain very rare, exceptionally powerful creatures (with purple names) may be able to bypass this ward.


Ooooh. Spoiler for the Black Abbot. Combine that with the Stormreaver trophy room effect, and you could have quite the swarm of player-spawned wraiths to deal with.

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 02:37 PM
Next, warchanters and ranged... Um... Warchanters seem to be based off the norse war chaters/skalds/battle-poets... I believe its a ripoff of a prestige class of the same name.

Just because something is put in the game doesnt mean everyone should benefit from it equally. Norse Skalds were barbarians that chanted, sung battle hymns, and composed epic battle poetry. They didnt throw daggers and fight with a bow.

I think the prereqs, while steep, fit perfectly with the class. It grants an extra rage per day, of COURSE it's meant for bard/barbarian multiclasses. And what barbarian in their right mind doesnt wield a 2 handed weapon, let alone DOES use a bow?My point was that this is yet another melee enhancement. Maybe my Dwarven Skald heaves axes to cleave his enemies's skulls. Is it conventional? No. But it's heroic and mighty, too. Ranged and thrown has been overlooked and I don't agree with taking that direction with the game. There's more to D&D combat than STR and melee.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 02:41 PM
My point was that this is yet another melee enhancement. Maybe my Dwarven Skald heaves axes to cleave his enemies's skulls. Is it conventional? No. But it's heroic and mighty, too. Ranged and thrown has been overlooked and I don't agree with taking that direction with the game. There's more to D&D combat than STR and melee.

I agree 100%, what about TWF battle Bards I can't spare the feats for warchanter why aren't they on the list of possible prereqs? If they don't want me to be a warchanter how about a dervishchanter or some other options for the rest of us.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 02:43 PM
My point was that this is yet another melee enhancement. Maybe my Dwarven Skald heaves axes to cleave his enemies's skulls. Is it conventional?
This is a really minor point, and there are more serious issues regarding these enhancements.

As you seem to know, ranged attacks in DDO are weak, unless prehaps you are an actual ranger. Allowing someone to qualify for Warchanter with Weapon Focus Thrown would be largely irrelevant. Turbine may as well allow it, because it's an underpowered choice and it would be almost a self-nerf for a bard to take that feat.

The important issues are the number of feats required to qualify for these things. Mainly, the problem is that since all bards take Extend Spell for longer Haste, Spellsinger has no real cost in feats. But since few bards have both Power Attack and Weapon Focus (and most have neither), Warchanter practically has a cost of 2 feats.

It looks very unfair for one option to cost 2 feats while the others cost zero.

Warchanter should be changed to allow you entry as long as you have spent one feat to demonstrate your dedication to aggressive weapon combat. Anyone with ONE of Power Attack, Weapon Focus (any), TWF, or Point Blank Shot should be allowed to qualify.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-26-2007, 02:46 PM
welcome, to DDO where the game is in a constant state of evolution

i completely agree that your present bard might not be able to be a good "warchanter"

however, i believe that if you create a build, e.g., 10bard/2barbarian/2fighter 32-point human or dwarf, you will see that there is now a good alternative to the drow cc-specialist or the 2-weapon drow-finesse bard builds

you will basically have a "bardbarian" who makes his whole party even better at "war" than the regular bard & can keep himself raged, hasted & blurred/displaced, deal damage as an off-tank, & can also heal himself all at the same time

actually, if you have a "warchanter" & a "spellsinger" in the same party, that party IMO will be unstoppable

it sounds pretty awesome to me & i cannot wait until July when i can roll one up

oooo that does sound like fun

DrAwkward
06-26-2007, 02:47 PM
Who in there right mind would ever spec for force in this game - I cant think any time force would be able to deal anywhere near the damage of cold or fire depending on the mob immunity

We can debate the "right mind" part, but here's my reason:

I play a Warforged Wizard, and my regular bodyguard is an Improved Fort Warforged Fighter. Its my job to keep him vertical, its his job to keep me from making concentration checks to keep him vertical.

I'm specced out in repair, because he is very good at holding aggro. Speccing out in repair by the rules of the game mean I'm mostly specced out in force anyway, so I dump the few extra AP in to get force crits.

My force missiles and magic missiles do respectable damage. Not nearly as much as it would versus a vulnerability, but what I pay in lower damage output, I gain by not having to worry about what I'm hitting.

This spell, depending on how crazy-go-nuts the Devs go, can pretty much eliminate what little use my enhancements may have when not running with WF tanks.

wiglin
06-26-2007, 02:48 PM
I agree 100%, what about TWF battle Bards I can't spare the feats for warchanter why aren't they on the list of possible prereqs? If they don't want me to be a warchanter how about a dervishchanter or some other options for the rest of us.

The vast number of options in a game like DDO makes it impossible for devs to create enhancements to cater to every single type of build out there. In this game we are not pigeon holed into any single build. There are tons of build concepts. Some better than others, and I do agree Einar that your twf bard is a very effective mellee bard, but to expect the devs to come up with a line of enhancements for every build is a little far fetched.

What I do agree with you on, is make the pre-req a little more wide spread so any mellee bard can gain access to warchanter, not just the 2hf bardbarian that has been widely discussed on the forums as of late.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 02:52 PM
The vast number of options in a game like DDO makes it impossible for devs to create enhancements to cater to every single type of build out there. In this game we are not pigeon holed into any single build. There are tons of build concepts. Some better than others, and I do agree Einar that your twf bard is a very effective mellee bard, but to expect the devs to come up with a line of enhancements for every build is a little far fetched.

What I do agree with you on, is make the pre-req a little more wide spread so any mellee bard can gain access to warchanter, not just the 2hf bardbarian that has been widely discussed on the forums as of late.

Well the dervishchanter was kind of a joke :D The main point was that they should make this a little more general so that more people could take them if they wanted to sacrifice something else. I am sorry but two feats is asking a lot and they are really narrow feats. Would it kill them to throw TWF in there as one of them? Maybe power attack still and TWF or even an improved critical? That is all I am saying.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 02:56 PM
This spell, depending on how crazy-go-nuts the Devs go, can pretty much eliminate what little use my enhancements may have when not running with WF tanks.
How often do you meet a monster who casts Shield? That happens, but is very rare.

Shield is on the sorc/wiz list, and Nightshield is on the sorc, wiz, and cleric lists.

1. Many many DDO monsters are apparently the Mystic Theurge class, and cast a mix of arcane and divine spells (think of all those kobold shamans with magic missile). If the devs wanted those monsters to have FM immunity, they'd already have them casting Shield.

2. Those spellcaster monsters who do not have Shield on their class lists are Clerics. Since Clerics already have Cure and Heal spells, plinking away on their health with single-target damage spells is already a waste of time. Really, how often do you fight a Wyrm-cult Bone-knitter with damage? If you want to kill him, you use FOD.

joenic2
06-26-2007, 02:56 PM
I have a quick question about the spellsinger enhancement for bards. Will the +1 DC and 10% discount on SP also be applied to the bard itself? Also, is it only one song per rest or is it as many times that you can play between rests. And finally, does anyone know how long its effects will last?

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 02:58 PM
I have a quick question about the spellsinger enhancement for bards. Will the +1 DC and 10% discount on SP also be applied to the bard itself?
Since it applies to "all nearby allies", it most certainly will work the same way Inspire Courage does, and apply to the bard too.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 02:59 PM
I have a quick question about the spellsinger enhancement for bards. Will the +1 DC and 10% discount on SP also be applied to the bard itself? Also, is it only one song per rest or is it as many times that you can play between rests. And finally, does anyone know how long its effects will last?

Yes, it should work on the bard also. You should be able to use it as many times as you have bard songs. The duration will most likely match current bard buff songs, so about 7 minutes with all the Lingering Song enhancements.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 03:02 PM
Perform enhancements and feats open up the opportunity to expand your bard into new realms with the new enhancements, so I would hardly say they are worthless.

Yes, they are still worthless. You gain absolutely no benefit from taking the perform enhancement line or feat. You do get a benefit from taking a later enhancement that it opens up, but that is still not a benefit. That is the equivalent of Energy of Music I giving 0 spell points, but Energy of Music II giving 30. In that case, Energy of Music I would be worthless, even if it did open up Energy of Music II.

Zenako
06-26-2007, 03:03 PM
I have a quick question about the spellsinger enhancement for bards. Will the +1 DC and 10% discount on SP also be applied to the bard itself? Also, is it only one song per rest or is it as many times that you can play between rests. And finally, does anyone know how long its effects will last?

It darn well better...:eek:

Seriously, this will make shrine pits stops even less urgent or give those mana junkies a 10% FREE boost in their blue bar. It may not sound like much, but it WILL add up...

joker965
06-26-2007, 03:04 PM
Oh and nice ninja post that guy!!!


I'm not really sure how I did that actually.

Zenako
06-26-2007, 03:12 PM
Yes, they are still worthless. You gain absolutely no benefit from taking the perform enhancement line or feat. You do get a benefit from taking a later enhancement that it opens up, but that is still not a benefit. That is the equivalent of Energy of Music I giving 0 spell points, but Energy of Music II giving 30. In that case, Energy of Music I would be worthless, even if it did open up Energy of Music II.

Ok then, since taking those enhancements are Worthless, then don't. Clearly the fact that they act as prereqs for something else does not matter in this case, regardless of what that next step is or what worth you might see in it. If the first step to get there is worthless, then the goal after it must also be worthless. I understand that as the game is currently constituted that you get little to no direct benefit from Perform skill, so perform itself is worthless, yet because it is a prereq for various Bard songs, bard tend to take that worthless skill, but why take something that is in of itself worthless. Prereqs have a place and value in the game.

LordDamax
06-26-2007, 03:13 PM
Perhaps you don't quite understand what I mean by useless. A blackguard with 5 ranks in Tumble can tumble better.


I'd argue a paladin in full plate with 5 ranks in tumble still has a Tumble of -1.

LordDamax
06-26-2007, 03:13 PM
Haha. That would be hilarious if it were true.

But it's not. The requirements for Blackguard are Hide 5, Religion 2, Cleave, Improved Sunder, and the obligatory peaceful contact with an evil outsider.

And Hide 5 is MORE useful for a blackguard in fullplate? It's STILL a useless requirement.

joker965
06-26-2007, 03:14 PM
Ok too many posts in 6 pages to reply to.

First, for the OMG Nightsield stops force missiles??? Overpowered!!

Shield does that. Shield has ALWAYS done that. It's also available on a wand in the tent that anyone with a UMD of 1 or better can use (ok, not well, but they can use it).

Next, warchanters and ranged... Um... Warchanters seem to be based off the norse war chaters/skalds/battle-poets... I believe its a ripoff of a prestige class of the same name.

Just because something is put in the game doesnt mean everyone should benefit from it equally. Norse Skalds were barbarians that chanted, sung battle hymns, and composed epic battle poetry. They didnt throw daggers and fight with a bow.

I think the prereqs, while steep, fit perfectly with the class. It grants an extra rage per day, of COURSE it's meant for bard/barbarian multiclasses. And what barbarian in their right mind doesnt wield a 2 handed weapon, let alone DOES use a bow?

Speaking of which, to the person who knows the sorc who casts MM exclusively... um... educate him. The damage output for time, and for damage per mana spent is ABYSSMAL. Its only benefit is it's almost universally unstoppable.


As for all the 'useless' prereqs... go check out prestige classes. They have them all the time. One of the prereqs for Blackguard, the Anti-paladin, the class that rewards fallen paladins for converting to evil is 5 ranks in Tumble. Sure, a rogue could be a blackguard, but there are massive rewards for fallen paladins. And it REQUIRES 5 ranks in Tumble. What paladin in their right mind puts points in tumble?

Of course enhancements THIS powerful have stupid prereqs.... Spellsinger gibving the entire PARTY -10% on mana use AND +1 to all save DCs? Thats insane. +1 to hit and +2 to damage AND DR 5 to EVERYONE in your group? Of course warchanter prereqs are sick.

Virtuoso isnt as bad, but it's still extremely powerful. A fascinate that debuffs everything with NO SAVE? Thats powerful as well.

I dunno I see a lot of whining and not a lot of yay. I started rolling a bardbarian a few weeks ago he just hit 14. i'm respecing out a feat and am SALIVATING over warchanter.


Sorry about quoting this whole thing but... too much QFT here. I had to relist it all.

wiglin
06-26-2007, 03:18 PM
Yes, they are still worthless. You gain absolutely no benefit from taking the perform enhancement line or feat. You do get a benefit from taking a later enhancement that it opens up, but that is still not a benefit. That is the equivalent of Energy of Music I giving 0 spell points, but Energy of Music II giving 30. In that case, Energy of Music I would be worthless, even if it did open up Energy of Music II.

I disagree, if the only thing taking energy of music I did was open up the ability to take energy of music II, then it is not worthless. Now when taken by itself, yes it is worthless, but you you wouldn't take EOM I by itself if you did not get anything out of it, you would be taking it so that you can gain access to get something that is not worthless...in this case 30sp

For instance. Lets look at the diet drug craze of the 90's. Most of the pills people used were for for the most part useless by themselves, but when they exercised and took the pills the pills gave them an edge on their weight loss.

This is not so different then taking skill focus perform. By itself it has little effect to what you can do as a bard, but by taking it you have the option to expand your abilities.

A pre-req in itself does not have to give anything extra to the player. It is what it is. A pre-req you take it so you can gain something else.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 03:21 PM
Ok then, since taking those enhancements are Worthless, then don't. Clearly the fact that they act as prereqs for something else does not matter in this case, regardless of what that next step is or what worth you might see in it. If the first step to get there is worthless, then the goal after it must also be worthless. I understand that as the game is currently constituted that you get little to no direct benefit from Perform skill, so perform itself is worthless, yet because it is a prereq for various Bard songs, bard tend to take that worthless skill, but why take something that is in of itself worthless. Prereqs have a place and value in the game.

The skill is not worthless. The enhancements and feat are. No other prerequisite for enhancements or feats has absolutely zero benefit to the character. My whole argument(Look up about two feet and you'll see it flying by) is that they are forcing us to take things with no benefit at all. On my rogue, I had to take things to qualify for Way of the Mechanic that I didn't originally have in my enhancements. Because of that, I gained +1 saves vs traps and a small amount of fire resistance. To qualify for Spellsinger(I said in one of my first posts that I would be taking it), I have to take enhancements for the Cure spells and Lyric of Deadly Song enhancements. To get any benefit from those, I have to change my spell lineup. I wish those requirements weren't necessary, but I won't be terribly upset if they are left in. However, for Virtuoso(I don't want to take it, regardless of the prereqs), you are required to spend action points for enhancements that absolutely CANNOT benefit you in any way whatsoever. If they have announced at the same time that your Perform skill was properly used in the DC for Fascinate, I would have no problem with it. But no other prerequisite in the game gives the character absolutely no benefit. Why do they feel it necessary to force bards to completely waste action points? No matter how you look at it, that is three action points that you gain no benefit from.

Solik
06-26-2007, 03:27 PM
Warchanter builds may be well-served by taking a level or two of fighter along with their barbarian and bard levels. That will help significantly with the feat prereqs. Depends whether you can give up the two levels of class features and enhancements.

dormetheus
06-26-2007, 03:27 PM
Is there any way to broaden the feat requirements for the Warchanter?

Since it seems to be catering to the Bardbarian, why not make the feat requirements: Power Atack AND (WF OR THF)

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 03:30 PM
Is there any way to broaden the feat requirements for the Warchanter?

Since it seems to be catering to the Bardbarian, why not make the feat requirements: Power Atack AND (WF OR THF)

How about any two combat feats from the fighter bonus list to open it up for more builds?

Freeman
06-26-2007, 03:31 PM
Now when taken by itself, yes it is worthless

This is the whole point. The only reason for the existence of the enhancement line is to gain access to another. No other feat, enhancement, or ability offers zero benefit to the character, regardless of build, class, or level. I don't think it should be worthless. Either make it count for something(Like Fascinate), or don't require it. There is no equivalent requirement anywhere else in the game.

wiglin
06-26-2007, 03:53 PM
This is the whole point. The only reason for the existence of the enhancement line is to gain access to another. No other feat, enhancement, or ability offers zero benefit to the character, regardless of build, class, or level. I don't think it should be worthless. Either make it count for something(Like Fascinate), or don't require it. There is no equivalent requirement anywhere else in the game.

Although I see your point, I do not agree. I have no problem having a pre-req that gives you nothing in return other then the option to take something else.

Perform is a pre-reg for our songs. By taking skill focus: perform you can free up skill points when you level and put them somewhere else. Thus SF: Perform would not be worthless, it not only opens up some new enhancements, but it frees up skill points to be used in other places.

This may not be useful to you, but to say it is worthless is opinion.

EspyLacopa
06-26-2007, 04:03 PM
Ooooh. Spoiler for the Black Abbot. Combine that with the Stormreaver trophy room effect, and you could have quite the swarm of player-spawned wraiths to deal with.

Wait. . .you mean a raid where Dying might mean more than just a bit of XP Debt and inconvenience?

Conejo
06-26-2007, 04:04 PM
Perform is a pre-reg for our songs. By taking skill focus: perform you can free up skill points when you level and put them somewhere else. Thus SF: Perform would not be worthless, it not only opens up some new enhancements, but it frees up skill points to be used in other places.

This may not be useful to you, but to say it is worthless is opinion.

incorrect. Bardsong abilities require RANKS in perform, not a modifier of it.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 04:13 PM
Either make it count for something(Like Fascinate), or don't require it. There is no equivalent requirement anywhere else in the game.
Actually there is. It's already been mentioned:
Perform ranks have no purpose but to qualify you for specific bardsongs.
Skill- Perform 2 has no purpose but to qualify you for Virtuoso.

Regardless, you are arguing about something that is, at best, semantics. If they removed the Perform 2 requirement and just added the equivalent cost in APs to Virtuoso, there would be no practical effect at all.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 04:14 PM
Although I see your point, I do not agree. I have no problem having a pre-req that gives you nothing in return other then the option to take something else.

Perform is a pre-reg for our songs. By taking skill focus: perform you can free up skill points when you level and put them somewhere else. Thus SF: Perform would not be worthless, it not only opens up some new enhancements, but it frees up skill points to be used in other places.

This may not be useful to you, but to say it is worthless is opinion.

No, you are incorrect. Skill Focus perform will NOT meet the prerequisites for your songs. You need the minimum RANKS in the skill, which means to gain the bard songs, you must spend the required number of skill points to reach that level. Skill Focus: Perform does NOTHING to help you in the game whatsoever. You may not mind taking a pre-req that does nothing, but considering that no other class or race has to do that, I don't see why bards alone should have to. If it had some benefit, even if it was something I didn't need, I wouldn't mind it. But as long as it has zero benefit, they shouldn't make it a requirement for something.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 04:15 PM
Wait. . .you mean a raid where Dying might mean more than just a bit of XP Debt and inconvenience?
Considering the significant obstacles to casting Raise Dead during the Reaver's Fate, there already is such a raid.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 04:18 PM
And Hide 5 is MORE useful for a blackguard in fullplate? It's STILL a useless requirement.
Blackguards get Sneak Attack as a class feature, so requiring them to qualify by training Hide is not silly, even if it's not something truly useful to a warrior. It's a cost of taking the PrC, but it's not flat-out funny like if they had to learn Tumble.

EspyLacopa
06-26-2007, 04:20 PM
I'd argue a paladin in full plate with 5 ranks in tumble still has a Tumble of -1.

A paladin with 1 rank of tumble can then attempt Tumble checks in PnP, even if the resulting skill check is a negative.

Same basic thing holds true here, only you can't actually successfully tumble unless you both have at least 1 rank in tumble and a positive skill.

1 rank + 5item +1 dex - 5 Full Plate - 1 Heavy Shield: +1 Tumble. Hey, he can tumble around! He gets benefit!

Raelg14
06-26-2007, 04:25 PM
Well make that 2... since I don't even have one.

OK maybe I am missing something here but why the hate for this Holy Sword? OK so you have to buy a weapon to take into a dungeon, and perhaps I am wrong but the cost of the weapon would be less than repairing a weapon of the type, plus according to http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm , Turbine is giving us a better version of the spell, the Cold Iron part. Now if the weapon can be passed that would be awesome, I doubt that is the case but it would be cool.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 04:26 PM
Actually there is. It's already been mentioned:
Perform ranks have no purpose but to qualify you for specific bardsongs.
Skill- Perform 2 has no purpose but to qualify you for Virtuoso.

Regardless, you are arguing about something that is, at best, semantics. If they removed the Perform 2 requirement and just added the equivalent cost in APs to Virtuoso, there would be no practical effect at all.

The perform skill requirement for bard songs is part of the core rules, so I expected that to be there. The perform enhancement requirements are arbitrary and have no ruleset to back them up. I don't think the Perform enhancements and skill focus feat should even be available in the game until they serve some purpose. Instead of giving them a purpose, they are trying to give people a reason to take them. Regardless of whether or not you have a reason to take them, the enhancements have no purpose in and of themselves. You can say that they aren't worthless because they allow you to get something better later, but that doesn't give them any intrinsic value of their own.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 04:32 PM
The perform skill requirement for bard songs is part of the core rules, so I expected that to be there. The perform enhancement requirements are arbitrary and have no ruleset to back them up.
No, there is a ruleset to back them up. It's at the top of this thread.

All game rules are arbitrary at their base: they are what the game designer chooses, nothing more. There is no such thing as a "Virtuoso enhancement" in the PnP rules, so of course the PnP rules are silent as to whether or not a "Perform enhancement" should be required to qualify for it.

Conejo
06-26-2007, 04:42 PM
OK maybe I am missing something here but why the hate for this Holy Sword?

Turbine is giving us a better version of the spell.

you're missing something: Turbine is giving us a bastardized version of the spell.

it would be incorrect to call it "lazy coding" but that's what it comes off as. instead of giving us Holy Sword, the d20 SRD spell.
we get holy sword, the Paladin equivalent to Flame Arrow, which poo-poos on our hopes and dreams of spells that actually enhance items (not to mention all Artificer infusions) like Keen Edge, or Magic Weapon.

wiglin
06-26-2007, 05:02 PM
No, you are incorrect. Skill Focus perform will NOT meet the prerequisites for your songs. You need the minimum RANKS in the skill, which means to gain the bard songs, you must spend the required number of skill points to reach that level. Skill Focus: Perform does NOTHING to help you in the game whatsoever. You may not mind taking a pre-req that does nothing, but considering that no other class or race has to do that, I don't see why bards alone should have to. If it had some benefit, even if it was something I didn't need, I wouldn't mind it. But as long as it has zero benefit, they shouldn't make it a requirement for something.

I stand corrected.

Although I still don't have a problem with SF:Perform having no value other than opening up more enhancements. I would much rather have a feat that is a pre-req that offers no other value than it being a pre-req than for the devs to come along and say let's make perform be the main ingredient to the DC of a bard song. Then we would have to lug around more equipment and have more things to swap out...bla, but hey at least you would get your wish and SF: Perform would be valuable.

I would much rather have perform stay the way it is, and SF:Perform's only benefit is that it opens up new enhancements.

Conejo
06-26-2007, 05:06 PM
I stand corrected.

Although I still don't have a problem with SF:Perform having no value other than opening up more enhancements.

your Perform Modifier is the DC the monsters have to make Vs Fascinate. so that +3 can help, yes.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 05:12 PM
your Perform Modifier is the DC the monsters have to make Vs Fascinate. so that +3 can help, yes.
Incorrect. Fascinate in DDO has no DC at all. There's nothing to modify: you sing, they get mezzed. No save, no SR, no nothing.

dormetheus
06-26-2007, 05:13 PM
How about any two combat feats from the fighter bonus list to open it up for more builds?

That sounds fair. It still requires two feats, but opens it up for twf and sns. I just think the weapon focus requirement is lame, considering that bards and barbarians are feat starved to begin with, and weapon focus is one of the lamest feats for a (feat starved) combat build.

Freeman
06-26-2007, 05:52 PM
No, there is a ruleset to back them up. It's at the top of this thread.

All game rules are arbitrary at their base: they are what the game designer chooses, nothing more. There is no such thing as a "Virtuoso enhancement" in the PnP rules, so of course the PnP rules are silent as to whether or not a "Perform enhancement" should be required to qualify for it.

None of this would be an issue if Perform worked correctly with a bard's Fascinate. Unfortunately, it doesn't. So using the earlier example of the Perform ranks being a prereq for the songs is basically using one mistake to justify making another similar mistake. I'm sure it is a coding issue that made them implement Fascinate the way it currently is. I don't expect them to fix it anytime soon. I honestly don't even expect these new bard enhancements to work correctly out of the gate, given the track record bards have had. And yes, they can make arbitrary decisions like making useless enhancements and feats requirements for better ones. However, that does not mean I have to agree with those arbitrary decisions. No other enhancement does not benefit the character in some way, no matter how tiny. Only bards are stuck with an enhancement line that has no purpose in the game. Now they decided, instead of making that enhancement line actually do anything, they'll just make it a prerequisite to a cool enhancement, to try to force people to take it. That only punishes the players who want the cool enhancement by forcing them to spend action points for something that does absolutely nothing.

For the record, I have no plans on taking the Virtuoso enhancement because I plan on taking the Spellsinger one. I am not arguing for this change on my behalf. I also am not advocating removing the requirement entirely. If they were to say that they placed it there because they plan on making Fascinate work correctly in this update or the next module, I would be very happy. However, if they don't plan on making this change anytime soon, then I don't see how they can justify making the perform enhancement a prerequisite.(And because they can is not a justification) If they aren't planning on changing Fascinate, then replace the perform requirement with the Bard Diplomacy enhancement instead. At least that would give some benefit. Otherwise, any bard that takes Virtuoso will basically be using three less action points than any other character in the game.(An action point that gives no benefit is the same as an action point you don't have)

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 05:57 PM
None of this would be an issue if Perform worked correctly with a bard's Fascinate.
It's not an issue at all. You are polluting a thread that could potentially touch on important issues relating to the requirements for Warchanter and Spellsinger with a huge amount of text on an absolutely trivial aspect of the Virtuoso enhancement, which itself is barely more than trivial.

Yes, the fact that DDO has no use for Perform skill is a problem. But it's not a new problem, it isn't caused by these new changes, and there's no reason to talk about it here.

Conejo
06-26-2007, 06:01 PM
Incorrect. Fascinate in DDO has no DC at all. There's nothing to modify: you sing, they get mezzed. No save, no SR, no nothing.

they haven't fixed this **** yet? ***

Freeman
06-26-2007, 06:18 PM
It's not an issue at all. You are polluting a thread that could potentially touch on important issues relating to the requirements for Warchanter and Spellsinger with a huge amount of text on an absolutely trivial aspect of the Virtuoso enhancement, which itself is barely more than trivial.

Yes, the fact that DDO has no use for Perform skill is a problem. But it's not a new problem, it isn't caused by these new changes, and there's no reason to talk about it here.

Um, okay then, would you point me towards the correct section to discuss this? I was under the impression this was the DDO Development Discussion section, but apparently it must be some other topic I didn't know about. The Virtuoso enhancement was introduced at the beginning of this thread, so the requirements for that enhancement should be a topic of discussion, just like Warchanter and Spellsinger. You have also been involved in the discussion, since I responded to several of your posts on the subject. My posts were no more off-topic than yours were. The lack of use for the Perform skill is an issue. If it can't be discussed in a thread where Perform feats and enhancements are involved, then I'm not sure where it would be appropriate.

MysticTheurge
06-26-2007, 06:19 PM
Nice list of spells.

Now, let's see what we can do to get about this many released in every update. :D

If you need more inspiration... I made a list (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=97458) once.

LordDamax
06-26-2007, 06:34 PM
Honestly, would you be happer if they removed the Bard: Perform II and replaced it with 3 more AP cost to the base enhancement? 7 instead of 4, or 9 instead of 6, or whatever the base cost it?

You are rallying the troops and chanting the war song over what amounts to you dropping 25 cents down a sewer grate.

It's a PREREQUISITE. The fact it does nothing is IRRELEVANT. You hawking about it in this thread just clutters this up for actual discussion.

If your point is that the prereq does nothing, then rant on, but you have no sympahy here. It's a prerequisite. Dont you think my warchanter is ****ed about having to spend 3 AP on inspire courage 2, an utterly useless enhancement given reaver rings and greater heroism?

If your point is that perform, in and of itself, should do something, then go start a DIFFERENT THREAD about it and discuss it there.

It's a prerequisute. Deal with it.

And ans for the hatred of the prereqs for Warchanter and the 'uselessness' of Weaon Focus... +1 to hit is HUGE, I've never had a comabt character that didnt have weapon focus. +1 to hit is better than +1 to damage any day.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 06:41 PM
And ans for the hatred of the prereqs for Warchanter and the 'uselessness' of Weaon Focus... +1 to hit is HUGE, I've never had a comabt character that didnt have weapon focus. +1 to hit is better than +1 to damage any day.
Except on days when I already hit every monster on a natural 2. Which for many characters means every day. (Barring Symbol of Pain)

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 06:42 PM
Um, okay then, would you point me towards the correct section to discuss this? I was under the impression this was the DDO Development Discussion section, but apparently it must be some other topic I didn't know about.
The Development Discussion forum would be an appropriate place. A Weekly Development Activities thread is not.

LordDamax
06-26-2007, 06:50 PM
Except on days when I already hit every monster on a natural 2. Which for many characters means every day. (Barring Symbol of Pain)

Well, awesome for you, Captain More-Awesome-Than-Everyone-Else. But when I get my guys up to a +42 to hit then maybe I'll respec it out, but since I am not capable of your unfallable arrogance and ability to never be wrong, I'll probably need that terrible feat until I can achieve your level of awesome.

I have ONE guy who can pull off a +34 consistantly, and he misses elite level content on more than a 2. The stupid wight myrmydons in PoP in the dolurrh room have an ac of 52+.

Sem34
06-26-2007, 06:54 PM
So with Warchanter and the other bard Prestige Class is this how DDO is going to implement them???

EspyLacopa
06-26-2007, 07:05 PM
Dont you think my warchanter is ****ed about having to spend 3 AP on inspire courage 2, an utterly useless enhancement given reaver rings and greater heroism?

You mean aside from the fact that the Bardsong can only be dispelled by cheating raid bosses?

Doesn't even get blown off by a Beholder's Anti-Magic eye.

How is that utterly useless again?

Freeman
06-26-2007, 07:06 PM
Honestly, would you be happer if they removed the Bard: Perform II and replaced it with 3 more AP cost to the base enhancement? 7 instead of 4, or 9 instead of 6, or whatever the base cost it?

You are rallying the troops and chanting the war song over what amounts to you dropping 25 cents down a sewer grate.

It's a PREREQUISITE. The fact it does nothing is IRRELEVANT. You hawking about it in this thread just clutters this up for actual discussion.

If your point is that the prereq does nothing, then rant on, but you have no sympahy here. It's a prerequisite. Dont you think my warchanter is ****ed about having to spend 3 AP on inspire courage 2, an utterly useless enhancement given reaver rings and greater heroism?

If your point is that perform, in and of itself, should do something, then go start a DIFFERENT THREAD about it and discuss it there.

It's a prerequisute. Deal with it.

And ans for the hatred of the prereqs for Warchanter and the 'uselessness' of Weaon Focus... +1 to hit is HUGE, I've never had a comabt character that didnt have weapon focus. +1 to hit is better than +1 to damage any day.

I would be happier if Perform actually had a purpose in the game. I am not looking for sympathy. You are comparing it to Inspire Bravery 2, which gives you a bonus to Fear saves. Since I doubt many people are running around with Reaver rings and Greater Heroism at level 5 or 6, when you would have to take these, those bonuses actually could be useful at those levels. At no level are perform enhancements useful. Their usefulness isn't negated by items, it simply isn't there. If 3 action points is not significant to you, then run your characters having only spent 49 action points. It is the same thing. I suggested earlier that I would be fine with them shifting the requirement to the Diplomacy enhancements. That would have at least some benefit.

As for the Warchanter feats, the biggest complaint I have seen is the Power Attack requirement. I think people could live with the focus feat more than that. The Power attack requirement cuts out most TWF or Sword/Board builds, unless they want to take a feat they aren't likely to use.


The Development Discussion forum would be an appropriate place. A Weekly Development Activities thread is not.

I'll make sure to stop posting in that thread then. I guess that means this thread is okay though :rolleyes:

TEK
06-26-2007, 07:07 PM
The Development Discussion forum would be an appropriate place. A Weekly Development Activities thread is not.


which is absolutely hilarious since i had to travel to the development discussion forum to read this :D

maddong
06-26-2007, 07:18 PM
I agree about nightshield blocking force missiles as overpowered. I'd probably end up taking it anyway to free up an item slot. I'd put a max hp force absorption like someone was talking about (they do that in PNP?).

I agree that Close Wounds is a worthless spell. Anyone that wants to burn mana that fast to do so little healing should just be alternating their cure spells. They should remove this spell, it doesn't add anything.

Warchanter is sick on a strength bard with 1 level of fighter. It is like they added focusing chant and warchanter just for me! +9/+7 song/spell on top of +11/+16 strength with -5/+10 power attack makes for some bad ass damage with displacement for yourself. My bard is all toughness except for power attack, extend spell, and 1 extra feat (which actually used to be weapon focus) so this is perfect. It would make sense to make it power attack or one of the weapon focuses (including ranged/thrown) though to broaden its appeal.

Virtuoso seems pretty worthless to me (+ useless skills, extra music when you already have enough, and a minor malediction which I guess is what you'd be spending those extra songs on). I'd much rather have a bard with warchanter (which helps all the melees) or spellsinger (which helps all the casters) with me.

And the toughness enhancement changes are still overpowered!

LordDamax
06-26-2007, 07:20 PM
You mean aside from the fact that the Bardsong can only be dispelled by cheating raid bosses?

Doesn't even get blown off by a Beholder's Anti-Magic eye.

How is that utterly useless again?

You're right, I'm wrong. Bards everywhere take Inspire Courage before any other enhancement. Thanks for opening my eyes to my own stupidity. Compared to nearly every other enhancement bards get, Inspire Courage is BY FAR one of the BEST.

maddong
06-26-2007, 07:27 PM
Is there any way to broaden the feat requirements for the Warchanter?

Since it seems to be catering to the Bardbarian, why not make the feat requirements: Power Atack AND (WF OR THF)

In its current form you are better off as a fighter for the extra feat (and longer lasting equipment). Having at most 3 really short rages is probably not worth it unless you really want the extra run speeeeeed. You can say but I want to go 4 barb/16 bard, but in that case I'd rather have the 3 feats and weapon spec.

maddong
06-26-2007, 07:33 PM
That would make sense. Make it power attack OR martial weapon (similar to how spellsingers can use magical training....) OR improved crit (any) AND ....
Any weapon focus (any, including ranged/throwing).

That would allow for sword and board, bard multiclasses, and ranged bards to join in on the fun with the 2 hander bards (which I still think do better as fighters).


Upon further thought: POWER ATTACK???? Why that particular feat? Why not Martial Weapons or something, or Improved Critical? At lease open it up for those Bards who took a level in Fighter or Ranger and not just Barbarian. That would make more sense to me... Not all Battle Bards are 2-handed weapon weilding Bardbarians, some of us actually like to go sword and board...

My Battle Bard took a level of Fighter, uses Dwarven axes and sheild, has weapon focus slashing so he could get Improved Critical slashing (why is that anyway? it doesn't indicate there is a pre-req for Improved Crit, yet there is???). I have no desire to pick up Power Attack at all! Sillyness...

EspyLacopa
06-26-2007, 08:02 PM
You're right, I'm wrong. Bards everywhere take Inspire Courage before any other enhancement. Thanks for opening my eyes to my own stupidity. Compared to nearly every other enhancement bards get, Inspire Courage is BY FAR one of the BEST.

You're welcome :p

Aesop
06-26-2007, 08:05 PM
You mean aside from the fact that the Bardsong can only be dispelled by cheating raid bosses?

Doesn't even get blown off by a Beholder's Anti-Magic eye.

How is that utterly useless again?

cause it doesn't stack with my paladin's immunity to fear :D

or the fear immunity head piece thingy

or the reaver ring

none of which get dispelled... maybe a flaw of the magic item sytem but whatever :)

Aesop

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 08:36 PM
You mean aside from the fact that the Bardsong can only be dispelled by cheating raid bosses?
Doesn't even get blown off by a Beholder's Anti-Magic eye.
How is that utterly useless again?
There's the fact that many characters already only fail a fear save on a natural 1. Items or buffs granting fear immunity are meaningful to them, but a save bonus is not.

Then there's the fact that beholders do not have fear-based spells, and raid bosses also do not have fear based spells.

The is the very occasional chance that a Beholder might have a Tharak Hound nearby, and that creature does have fear-based attacks. But once again, many players are looking to only fail the save on a natural 1.

Furthermore, notice that DDO allows you to drink a Remove Fear potion even under the effects of Fear. That is in violation of the PnP rules (because you shouldn't be able to take any action except running away), and it makes anti-fear buffs even less important.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 08:37 PM
I doubt many people are running around with Reaver rings and Greater Heroism at level 5 or 6, when you would have to take these,
No. These enhancements will not generally be taken at level 6 (and they cannot be taken at 5). The AP costs are such to make them unaffordable then. Plus, at level 5-6 there are no important fear effects. Any fear can be dispelled by clicking on a potion. It's only at higher levels that you face Mummy Despair and Phantasmal Killer, which cannot be personally cured.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 08:40 PM
Well, awesome for you, Captain More-Awesome-Than-Everyone-Else. But when I get my guys up to a +42 to hit then maybe I'll respec it out, but since I am not capable of your unfallable arrogance and ability to never be wrong, I'll probably need that terrible feat until I can achieve your level of awesome.
That response bears so little relationship to anything I actually wrote, that I think I'll be generous and not have you kicked from the boards for it.

PS. I'm +39 on the first swing.

PPS. On my caster.

MeCrazy
06-26-2007, 08:46 PM
Forcing a Bard to take Power Attack as a feat if we aren't already designed that way is what makes it not worth it. The BAB already suffers for a Battle Bard, the songs make up for that loss by a couple of points (and a DP clickie helps for about 40 seconds). But having Power Attack on just turns a buffed Battle Bard into a non-buffed fighter, ya-frickin-hoo. So turn it off you say? Sure, I'll turn it off and keep it off so I can kill stuff. All that does is turn it into a wasted feat so I can get another +1 to attack and +2 to damage and DR for the party? Nope, not worth a wasted feat, imho. Too bad too, I was looking forward to it :(

with +11 to hit from your own songs and buff spells...if you cant hit with PA on your facing the wrong direction

Arjen
06-26-2007, 08:53 PM
PS. I'm +39 on the first swing.

PPS. On my caster.


Would you mind breaking that down?

I easily get there with my barbarian who is @ 40 str raged, but on a caster's 1st swing? come on..

Freeman
06-26-2007, 08:55 PM
No. These enhancements will not generally be taken at level 6 (and they cannot be taken at 5). The AP costs are such to make them unaffordable then. Plus, at level 5-6 there are no important fear effects. Any fear can be dispelled by clicking on a potion. It's only at higher levels that you face Mummy Despair and Phantasmal Killer, which cannot be personally cured.

Wait, weren't we talking about having to take Inspired Bravery I and II to qualify for Warchanter? Bard's Inspired Bravery II is available at level 5. The total action point cost is 3.(One point for IB I, and two for IB II) That's hardly expensive, even at that level. Warchanter becomes available at level 6, so to get it at the earliest point, you would have to be level 5 when you took the IB enhancements. At earlier levels, the kobold shamans love to throw out fear spells, so the extra bonus to saves can come in handy when fighting them. Yes, fear can be dispelled by clicking on a potion. You can also get rid of poison, disease, slow, curse, hit point damage, stat damage, and blindness by clicking on a potion. That doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer not to fail my save in the first place.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 09:06 PM
Well, awesome for you, Captain More-Awesome-Than-Everyone-Else. But when I get my guys up to a +42 to hit then maybe I'll respec it out, but since I am not capable of your unfallable arrogance and ability to never be wrong, I'll probably need that terrible feat until I can achieve your level of awesome.
If you read with a little more accuracy, you'll notice I didn't actually claim my personal characters never miss. Just many characters do not; and that is true. Talking to a lot of barbarians and paladins, you'll find that rather few of them actually have Weapon Focus. A lot of fighters might drop Weapon Focus if they'd be allowed to keep Weapon Spec without it.

It is also conventional wisdom that in PnP Weapon Focus is minimally useful except to qualify for other weapon feats. Notice that in PnP anyone can take Weapon Focus for +1 attack with longswords, but Weapon Spec for more damage is restricted to fighters only. There's a good reason for that.

Now, lets do the math on a pure bard 14 with strength 22 and a +5 weapon, attacking a monster whose AC is high enough that his first swing misses on a roll of 1-10 (that is higher than most monsters enjoy, meaning that this scenario is highly favorable for Weapon Focus).
Raw, he does an average of 17.5/swing over 4 attacks.
Give him Weapon Focus and he does 18.4 average per swing.
Instead give him a +1 damage (which is not avail from any feat) and he does 18.2
Instead give him +2 damage (equivalent to Weapon Spec, which is not allowed for bards) and he gets 19.
Instead give him Improved Crit and he gets 19.7

If you could take only one feat to boost your weapon damage, Imp Crit would be it.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 09:11 PM
Would you mind breaking that down?
I easily get there with my barbarian who is @ 40 str raged, but on a caster's 1st swing? come on..
Well, let me remember. BAB 14, strength +11, Greater Heroism +4, weapon +5, enhancements +2, luck +3. 39 total. I could equip the Battle Coin for another +1... but it's not worth it.

MysticTheurge
06-26-2007, 09:16 PM
Well, let me remember. BAB 14, strength +11, Greater Heroism +4, weapon +5, enhancements +2, luck +3. 39 total. I could equip the Battle Coin for another +1... but it's not worth it.

Your caster has a 32 strength? I have to admit to being impressed.

Arjen
06-26-2007, 09:19 PM
Well, let me remember. BAB 14, strength +11, Greater Heroism +4, weapon +5, enhancements +2, luck +3. 39 total. I could equip the Battle Coin for another +1... but it's not worth it.

Your caster has a BAB of 14?

Yeah..

GeneralDiomedes
06-26-2007, 09:31 PM
Your caster has a 32 strength? I have to admit to being impressed.

18 base
3 levels
6 item
3 tome
2 rage
2 madstone rage (I believe these stack)
34 maximum possible for a caster or any non-fighter. I don't consider the alchemical bonus as plentiful enough for inclusion.

14 BAB - Tensor's or Divine Power Clickie is easy enough.

32 STR/32 CHA is also possible

18 base STR
1 levels
6 item/divine power
3 tome
2 rage
2 madstone rage (I believe these stack)
= 32 STR

18 base CHA
2 levels
3 enhancements
3 tome
6 item
= 32 CHA

But maaaan are you going to be squishy and you are going to be sucktastic for the majority of your career.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 09:50 PM
Your caster has a 32 strength? I have to admit to being impressed.
There's a whole thread about them (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=111311).


2 rage
2 madstone rage (I believe these stack)
Yes. In fact, not only does Madstone Rage stack with Rage, it also stacks with Madstone Rage, for a total +6. (Which is difficult to activate, however, what with preventing spellcasting and clickies)

GeneralDiomedes
06-26-2007, 09:57 PM
Perhaps you don't quite understand what I mean by useless. A blackguard with 5 ranks in Tumble can tumble better. A bard with Bard: Perform I and II can... do absolutely nothing any differently than a bard without them. There is absolutely no benefit from taking this enhancement. None. Zero. The action points are completely wasted. If they want to make them have a purpose, then make Fascinate work the way it should. Until then, don't force people to take things simply to give them a purpose.

They make you take these prequisites because they FIT FROM A ROLEPLAYING PERSPECTIVE. They are not out to give every Bard with 2 cents to rub together something for nothing.

Sheesh.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 09:58 PM
And ans for the hatred of the prereqs for Warchanter and the 'uselessness' of Weaon Focus... +1 to hit is HUGE, I've never had a comabt character that didnt have weapon focus. +1 to hit is better than +1 to damage any day.
That is a hyperbolic strawman. Nobody seriously claimed Weapon Focus is useless.

However, it is low on the priority list for a non-fighter character interested in doing damage with melee weapons. If you're a bard14 or bard13/X1 and you want to spend feats to kill things with weapons, your first priority should be Improved Critical. Next is Exotic Proficiency Khopesh, and next is Power Attack. Weapon Focus comes in as feat #4.

Four feats is quite a heavy investment into melee combat, even for a warchanter-styled battle bard. (If you were a bard14, Martial Proficiency Greatsword might actually come before Weapon Focus as well)

The problem would largely be solved if Improved Critical could substitute for Weapon Focus to meet Warchanter requirements. (Or better yet, you need only 2 of the WF / Imp Crit / PA feats)

Deusxmachina
06-26-2007, 10:00 PM
If you could take only one feat to boost your weapon damage, Imp Crit would be it.

Except when fighting monsters that can't be critted, which, particularly in PnP, there are a lot of. My 15-20 crit range dervish is a sad panda when he fights all the annoying non-crittables. Same reason "uber-damage rogues" can get virtually shut down half the time.

I don't know why weapon focus is any big deal for warchanter. It's a decent enough "general combat" feat.

And while it does seem tolerable to me to require two combat feats for warchanter, even the two currently required, I would like to hear the developer rationale for requiring two feats for warchanter but only one feat for the other prestiges.

SteeleTrueheart
06-26-2007, 10:30 PM
It sounds like the skill Perform is going to be looked at and fixed. I would bet that they are going to change it from the current requirement of base ranks to ranks+feats+enhancements (maybe items for something like fascinate DC) for certain enhancements/abilities etc that require a Perform skill level.

Don't assume that the pre-reqs for anything will not be useful later. Sure they are not helpful now, but next mod? who knows.

Hopefully they will look at all the skills (and maybe implement a skill respec system, yes my first character made mistakes)

Remember that they put in dragon marks and in a future update they will put in a dragon mark enhancement line. Also they are implementing more turn undead attempts per day based on your buffed charisma score.

These changes make me hopeful that DDO has a long term view that goes against all those nay sayers who think this game is Doomed. It really makes me think that this game is for Mature people who do not necessarily need to have everything NOW and are wiling to let the game grow and adjust and improve over time.

As for my main a Paladin.
Angel skin = too short but hey I have a level 2 spell slot just waiting to be used!

AnubisPrime
06-26-2007, 11:18 PM
MAN I can't wait for this new stuff to come!

Spookydodger
06-26-2007, 11:41 PM
Angelskin
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Pal 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: Lawful Good creature touched (self or ally)
Duration: 6 seconds/level

The subject gains damage reduction 5/evil.


Shouldn't this be 10/evil? About what percentage of mob attacks count as evil, in the game? It seems like a nice-enough spell for those that don't want to carry around some other DR item/class ability/spell



Holy Sword
Evocation [Good]
Level: Pal 4
Components: V, S, M

Channels holy power to turn a Blessed Cold Iron weapon into a +5 Holy Cold Iron weapon that grants its wielder a continuous Protection From Evil effect while equipped. The holy weapon is permanent, but is destroyed on dungeon exit. The House Jorasco Divine Reagent Vendor carries Blessed Cold Iron Greatswords, Bastard Swords, Longswords, Shortswords, Scimitars, Warhammers, Rapiers, Dwarven Waraxes, Khopeshes, Mauls, and Heavy Picks.


This should really be circle of protection. Additionally, it should modify an existing weapon. The notion of carrying around a stack of weapons for material components sounds silly and you're really going to have to have the ability to temporarily modify weapons anyways so I suggest doing this one right to begin with, even if it only modifies the weapon for as long as the PnP spell does.



Chaos Hammer
Level: Clr 4

Order's Wrath

Unholy Blight


These seem cool enough. Might want a bump up the damage to account for buffed hp. They are a 4th level spell, after all. You guys have admitted that spells need to be modified to account for the hitpoints in the past (Specifically a post, I believe by Eladrin, about the Power Word spell maximum effected hitpoints). It seems like it would apply here, too.



Close Wounds
Conjuration (Healing)
Level: Clr 2
Components: V
Target: One Ally, Self, or Undead Foe
Saving Throw: Will half

Close Wounds cures 1d4 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +5). This spell is quicker to cast than other cures and has no cooldown other than the one second global cooldown.


Even at a 1 second global cooldown, it doesn't really work. It's much easier to learn how to stagger your healing casts.

The purpose of close-wounds was to prevent death on someone as they are about to be killed, no?

May I suggest a dramatically different effect? The spell puts an effect on a target. When that target drops below 0 hitpoints, even if it would take them below -9 (death), it would restore 1d4 +1/CL (max 5) hitpoints to the target. The spell cannot be dispelled (as it would normally be an instantaneous cast, so it's not really a spell). After it is expended, the spell dissipates. It would seem to fit in much better with the intention of the spell. IF the damage healed is still insufficient to keep the target from dying, they still die. However, if the target's HP were to be raise above the death threshold, they would be alive, though likely still at negative hitpoints and dying.

IE a player has 2 hitpoints left. They are hit for 13 hitpoints, taking them to -11. They would have died, but had 5 hitpoints instantly restored to them, bringing their HP to -6.

As a bonus effect, it could automatically stabilize the character, too.

Mechanics wise, this could take the effect of a DR that is only activated when the character goes below 1 hitpoint. With DR = the number of hitpoints that would be restored.



Nightshield
Abjuration
Level: Clr 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute/level

Grants a +1 resistance bonus to saves; this resistance bonus increases to +2 at caster level 6th and +3 at caster level 9th. In addition, this spell negates Magic Missile and Force Missile attacks directed at you.


A lot of overlap with other spells, but decent enough, and clerics will thank you greatly for not only giving a useful 2nd level spell at higher levels, but also letting them ditch their shield clickies. I am a bit concerned that it totally negates force-missles, as that's not an original intent. Not sure how that will play out.



Spawn Screen
Necromancy
Level: Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: One Ally/level
Duration: 1 minute/level

Protects you and your allies from rising as spawns of common undead after death. Certain very rare, exceptionally powerful creatures (with purple names) may be able to bypass this ward.


Thank you very much. I appreciate this spell greatly. And a useful 2nd level, to boot.



Focusing Chant
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level: Brd 1
Components: V
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 minute

You gain a +1 circumstance bonus on attack rolls and skill checks for the duration of the spell.



Cool enough, I guess. Especially for a little boost at higher levels if you don't have another bard to serenade you. Actually, isn't that a competence bonus? That might be even better. :)



Ooze Puppet
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, S
Target: One Ooze
Duration: 10 minutes
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates

You telekinetically take control of the targeted ooze, manipulating it and forcing it to move and attack as you see fit. Oozes dominated by this spell are slowed, and once a minute receive an additional save to attempt to free themselves. If the controlled ooze splits, you lose control of the resultant oozes.



This won't have much use. But when it will, it ought to last an awfully long time. At least it will be a fun spell for wizards and the occasional scroll-packing sorcerer. :)



Spellsinger:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Music of Energy 2, Bard Skill: Concentration 2, Bard Song Magic 2, Bard Lyric of Song 1, Any one of the following: Magical Training, Mental Toughness, Spell Focus: Enchantment, Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment, Empower Spell, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Maximize Spell

"Your studies into magic have granted you a +2 bonus to your Concentration and Use Magic Device skills, +100 Spell Points, and the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies a +1 morale bonus to spell DC's and a 10% morale discount on spell costs.


This will be rather cool. This will come to a good 150-180 more spell points for dedicated casters at 14th. Not too shabby. The UMD will be nice, too, if you focus on that. The DC bonus is great, as it should stack. Very nice addition.



Virtuoso:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Extra Song 2, Bard Skill: Perform 2, Bard Lingering Song 1, Bard Charisma 1, Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song 4, Skill Focus: Perform, Negotiator

"Your studies into song have granted you a +2 bonus to your Diplomacy, Listen, and Perform skills, 3 extra uses of Bardic Music per rest, and your beneficial songs last an additional 10% longer. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to enthrall multiple enemies, fascinating them and inflicting a -2 penalty to attack rolls and Will saves even if the fascination is broken."


Not useful to all, but not bad. I might take this, at least for a while.



Warchanter:
Prereqs: Bard level 6, Bard Inspired Attack 1, Bard Inspired Damage 1, Bard Inspired Bravery 2, Power Attack, Any one of the following: Weapon Focus: Slashing, Weapon Focus: Piercing, Weapon Focus: Bludgeoning

"Your studies into war have granted you a +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill. Your Inspire Courage song gains an additional +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, and +1 to fear saves. If you possess the Barbarian Rage ability, you gain +1 use per rest. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies damage reduction 5/-."


Definitely geared towards multi-class bards. I could see fighter/barb/bard using it, certainly. Might be more useful than the fighter/wizard, especially if the bard could UMD tensor's transformation scrolls.



Bard Music of the Dead enhancement prerequisite changed to:
Bard Level 6 (from 11)
Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song IV or Bard Virtuoso I

Bard Music of the Makers enhancement prerequisite changed to:
Bard Level 9 (from 11)
Any one of the following: Bard Extra Song IV, Bard Virtuoso I, Warforged Construct Thinking III, Lesser Dragonmark of Making


So down to 6th if you're a virtuoso, or 10th if you're not? Not bad, I suppose. Though I would wager that if you wanted to charm undead, you might find a lot of bards taking this till they are 10th and then respeccing. The benefit of Virtuouso may not be great enough with the impetus from Music of the Makers and Music of the Dead.



Ranger Vermin Empathy enhancement prerequisites changed to:
Ranger Level 2 (from 11)
Ranger Extra Empathy I and any one of the following: Favored Enemy: Vermin, Ranger Desert Lore 2, Ranger Swamp Lore 2, or Ranger Extra Empathy IV.Ranger Elemental Empathy enhancement prerequisites changed to:
Ranger Level 4 (from 12)
Ranger Extra Empathy I and any one of the following: Favored Enemy: Elemental, Ranger Energy Resistance Boost III, or Ranger Extra Empathy IV.


Nice. Though I was never sure if Ranger energy resistance boost was worth it because I don't recall it, itself, saying it stacked, even though it uses the word "boost".




Way of the Assassin now has three different poisons available for use with Assassin’s Focus: Thoughtburn (Int damage and prevents casting for a short time), Icechill (Dex damage and slows the target's attack speed for a short time), and Soulshatter (Lowers the target's spell resistance by 10 and Will saves by 4 for a short time). A character may only have one Assassin’s Focus ability active at a time.


This seems super cool. However, thoughtburn did have some problems before, so I guess I'll have to reserve judgement.

Spookydodger
06-26-2007, 11:54 PM
It sounds like the skill Perform is going to be looked at and fixed. I would bet that they are going to change it from the current requirement of base ranks to ranks+feats+enhancements (maybe items for something like fascinate DC) for certain enhancements/abilities etc that require a Perform skill level.


There is no precedent that I know of that would cause this to be the case. Historically everything is based off of ranks, not total modifier. Tumble, Perform, and any others that have a prerequisite of a certain level base that on your base ranks, as it shows your actual training, as opposed to items which are a magical bonus to what you already know, and feats and ability mods, which represent special focus and natural aptitude.



Don't assume that the pre-reqs for anything will not be useful later. Sure they are not helpful now, but next mod? who knows.

Hopefully they will look at all the skills (and maybe implement a skill respec system, yes my first character made mistakes)



This is true. Though I do wish I knew if they actually had anything in the pipeline with anything remotely close to using Perform or anything else. DM's let you respec yourself when new books come out. If I recall, there are even guidelines. You can only, in this game, respec feats and enhancements, not skills or levels.




Remember that they put in dragon marks and in a future update they will put in a dragon mark enhancement line. Also they are implementing more turn undead attempts per day based on your buffed charisma score.



Somehow I think they put in the dragonmark enhancements because people were having annuerisms over spending 3 feats to be able to cast 1 spell per rest for the greater mark.



These changes make me hopeful that DDO has a long term view that goes against all those nay sayers who think this game is Doomed. It really makes me think that this game is for Mature people who do not necessarily need to have everything NOW and are wiling to let the game grow and adjust and improve over time.


I think that it will be moot if changes (or lack thereof) now cause the player-base to shrink to dangerous numbers. Yes, it's possible to come back from that, but it's hard. Age works against games, no matter the quality. The fewer people play, the fewer people work on the game, the slower updates come out, the worse the situation gets. It's a vicious cycle. I don't think that anyone feels the game is doomed for its long term vision. Who can know that? I think that most feel the doom because of short-term decisions that hobble long-term growth.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 11:55 PM
[COLOR="Green"]Shouldn't this be 10/evil? About what percentage of mob attacks count as evil, in the game?
Presumably, those monsters with DR/Good will inflict evil damage with their attacks. That will primarily mean Flesh Renders, Mariliths, and Jariliths. Possibly also Tharak Hounds, although they're more likely to do Chaotic damage.

Also, certain high level archers have Unholy or Pure Evil arrows.


It seems like a nice-enough spell for those that don't want to carry around some other DR item/class ability/spell
As this is a paladin-only spell, you won't have any opportunity to get a DR class ability. (You could be warforged though).

Spookydodger
06-27-2007, 12:05 AM
As this is a paladin-only spell, you won't have any opportunity to get a DR class ability. (You could be warforged though).

If only Paladins could multiclass with Barbarian :P Maybe some future thing will give them a DR from a class feature. Skin of the Celestial, or some such. Though that's probably where they got this spell from.

gpk
06-27-2007, 04:00 AM
OK maybe I am missing something here but why the hate for this Holy Sword? OK so you have to buy a weapon to take into a dungeon, and perhaps I am wrong but the cost of the weapon would be less than repairing a weapon of the type, plus according to http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm , Turbine is giving us a better version of the spell, the Cold Iron part. Now if the weapon can be passed that would be awesome, I doubt that is the case but it would be cool.

The problem w holy sword and it's been discussed a LOT, it's not better than any weapons you already have 99% of the time for 99% of the Paladins out there. It's not even on par.
A temp spell adding +2d6 "good" dmg on an existing weapon woulda been better.

I sometimes wonder if the designers take the stuff thats currently in game into account, +1 gr bane > Holy Sword 99% of the time.

Angel Skin, 6 seconds/level for DR5/evil, not even DR5/- (ha!), in game +5 Adamantine FP is not hard to obtain, Golden greaves DR3/-, Lailat ring Stoneskins clickies CL12 x3, thats 120 points of DR10/adamantine x3 /rest or simply getting StoneSkin from an caster/scroll/wand. I'm willing to wager there are more mobs that dp "evil" dmg than adamantine.

Thanks all the same but I'd rather get Nightshield as a "new to me" spell for a Paladin than both Angel Skin and Holy Sword.



It's kinda like we pure pallys have gotten out toys taken away the past two Christmases, and this year are told we get something new, and it ends up being a pair of underwear.



Looks like we get a pair of angelskin socks to go with our underoos!

Freeman
06-27-2007, 06:34 AM
They make you take these prequisites because they FIT FROM A ROLEPLAYING PERSPECTIVE. They are not out to give every Bard with 2 cents to rub together something for nothing.

Sheesh.

Read my posts. I am not asking for something for nothing. I said I wouldn't mind if they substituted Bard: Diplomacy II instead, since that would actually be a functional enhancement. Yes, the enhancements fit from a role-playing perspective. However, the role-playing angle is the ONLY reason to take those enhancements. They have zero function in the game. No other enhancement line has no effect on the game or your character.


It sounds like the skill Perform is going to be looked at and fixed. I would bet that they are going to change it from the current requirement of base ranks to ranks+feats+enhancements (maybe items for something like fascinate DC) for certain enhancements/abilities etc that require a Perform skill level.

Don't assume that the pre-reqs for anything will not be useful later. Sure they are not helpful now, but next mod? who knows.

Hopefully they will look at all the skills (and maybe implement a skill respec system, yes my first character made mistakes)

Remember that they put in dragon marks and in a future update they will put in a dragon mark enhancement line. Also they are implementing more turn undead attempts per day based on your buffed charisma score.

These changes make me hopeful that DDO has a long term view that goes against all those nay sayers who think this game is Doomed. It really makes me think that this game is for Mature people who do not necessarily need to have everything NOW and are wiling to let the game grow and adjust and improve over time.

You do realize that one of your examples of something they added to the game took over a year to get implemented? I hope they will fix Perform so that it has some bearing on the game at some point. However, there has been no indication that they are actively working on it up to this point. Also, your example of the Dragonmarks isn't relevant. A better example would if they had put the Dragonmark enhancement line in one year before the Dragonmarks, then made it a requirement for a higher-level enhancement. You would have the choice of taking an enhancement that did nothing until some time in the future, or missing out on another enhancement that you might want.

I hope Perform enhancements will be useful later. However, without some indication of when later will be, I don't think they should force bards(And only bards) to spend action points for nothing, while any other class would get something for those points.

As for the long term view, my problem is the order in which things are added. If they plan on making Perform matter, then they should implement that BEFORE they start putting in requirements like this. It is that whole cart-horse dilemma. If your view was the view everyone took, then there would never be a single complaint about the game. Why would anyone bother, since it will get fixed eventually? I'm not asking that Perform be fixed now. I'm asking that they not make the enhancements(Or the feat) a requirement until it is fixed. No other class has a skill or enhancement that does absolutely nothing, yet they are forced to put points into it. I let it slide on the skill itself, since it was still needed to open new bard songs even if it wasn't actually used in the game itself(More of a metagame reason there). But adding the enhancement requirement to a "Prestige" enhancement makes no sense if they haven't actually fixed the skill itself.

MysticTheurge
06-27-2007, 06:48 AM
Shouldn't this be 10/evil?

The Spell Compendium version of the spell is 5/evil. I don't know where the 10/evil description is from.


This should really be circle of protection. Additionally, it should modify an existing weapon.

Since DDO Magic Circle Against Evil really does nothing more than cast PfE on everyone near by, it's pretty much the same thing.

Also, since Holy Sword overwrites any magical effects on your current weapon, the odd component feature also works pretty much as in D&D with the slight added annoyance of having to carry specially prepared weapons.


These seem cool enough. Might want a bump up the damage to account for buffed hp.

No other damage spell in the game has had it's numbers modified because of enemy hit points why would these be any different?

(Personally, rather than argue for these three spells to be boosted, I'd rather lobby for an overall increase in damage done by damaging spells.


A lot of overlap with other spells, but decent enough, and clerics will thank you greatly for not only giving a useful 2nd level spell at higher levels, but also letting them ditch their shield clickies. I am a bit concerned that it totally negates force-missles, as that's not an original intent. Not sure how that will play out.

Neither clerics nor wizards have a spell that gives a resistance bonus to all saving throws. Clerics have no spell that blocks magic missiles. If there's one spell that I'm excited about it's this one.

As for blocking force-missiles, Shield has always done this, and when I made a big fuss about it once everyone told me I was making a big deal over nothing and that it was actually good for the players (which I grew to be convinced of myself).


Cool enough, I guess. Especially for a little boost at higher levels if you don't have another bard to serenade you. Actually, isn't that a competence bonus? That might be even better. :)

Circumstance modifiers are a huge bonus, largely because they stack with each other (unless they're from the same source). This spell is essentially a +1 to hit/skills on top of everything else for bards.


There is no precedent that I know of that would cause this to be the case. Historically everything is based off of ranks, not total modifier.

No, fascinate save is based on perform modifier, as well as your countersong roll.


Somehow I think they put in the dragonmark enhancements because people were having annuerisms over spending 3 feats to be able to cast 1 spell per rest for the greater mark.

They actually probably put them in because it's a pretty standard feature of dragonmark abilities, to be able to gain more uses per day.



Maybe some future thing will give them a DR from a class feature. Skin of the Celestial, or some such. Though that's probably where they got this spell from.

Paladins have no class feature like this. They got the spell from the spell of the same name in the spell compendium.


The problem w holy sword and it's been discussed a LOT, it's not better than any weapons you already have 99% of the time for 99% of the Paladins out there. It's not even on par.
A temp spell adding +2d6 "good" dmg on an existing weapon woulda been better.

That is not how Holy Sword works in D&D. Yes you can cast it on an existing weapon, but it overwrites and replaces all magical effects which the weapon already has. Adding +2d6 (i.e. Holy) to an existing weapon, on top of everything else the weapon already has, would not be in keeping with the D&D rules for the spell.


I sometimes wonder if the designers take the stuff thats currently in game into account, +1 gr bane > Holy Sword 99% of the time.

A Good and Cold Iron weapon is actually fairly useful against creatures with that sort of DR. Also if it comes down to carrying a greater bane weapon for every time of monster I might ever run across or carrying a small stack (assuming they stack) of these specially prepared Holy Sword weapons, I might do the latter and just sell of my Greater Banes.


Angel Skin, 6 seconds/level for DR5/evil, not even DR5/- (ha!), in game +5 Adamantine FP is not hard to obtain, Golden greaves DR3/-, Lailat ring Stoneskins clickies CL12 x3, thats 120 points of DR10/adamantine x3 /rest or simply getting StoneSkin from an caster/scroll/wand. I'm willing to wager there are more mobs that dp "evil" dmg than adamantine.

I've never understood this "There are other ways to get this ability (or something similar) so this new way to get it is USELESS!!" attitude people seem to have. If you have a Sigil of Earth, then yeah, maybe you'll be using Angel Skin less than other people. But come on, it's a first level spell. That means Paladins can start using it at 4th level. There aren't a lot of 4th level people with access to Sigil of Earth (or even the Stoneskin spell). Yeah it's only 2 more points of DR than Adamantine FP or the Golden Greaves, but it's 2 fewer points of damage every time you get hit. It's really not hard to see how that stacks up over time to a pretty serious effect.


Thanks all the same but I'd rather get Nightshield as a "new to me" spell for a Paladin than both Angel Skin and Holy Sword.

Nightshield is not a paladin spell.

MysticTheurge
06-27-2007, 06:49 AM
Read my posts. I am not asking for something for nothing. I said I wouldn't mind if they substituted Bard: Diplomacy II instead, since that would actually be a functional enhancement. Yes, the enhancements fit from a role-playing perspective. However, the role-playing angle is the ONLY reason to take those enhancements. They have zero function in the game. No other enhancement line has no effect on the game or your character.

Would it really, then, make more sense to, I don't know, ask them to fix perform so it matters?

Freeman
06-27-2007, 07:23 AM
Would it really, then, make more sense to, I don't know, ask them to fix perform so it matters?

Again, if you read my posts, my requests were that they either fix perform, or substitute this requirement for something that works until they can fix it. If they had announced this at the same time they announced that Perform now factored into Fascinate, I would have no problem with it. But until they fix Perform, I don't think they should make the enhancement to perform(Or the skill focus) a requirement for anything.

EspyLacopa
06-27-2007, 08:01 AM
(Personally, rather than argue for these three spells to be boosted, I'd rather lobby for an overall increase in damage done by damaging spells.

Like boosting spells that do d6 damage to do 5 avg instead of 3.5? And spells using a d8 doing 5.5 instead of 4.5 And of course, spells with d4 do 3.5 avg instead of 2.5

Like that?

samagee
06-27-2007, 08:47 AM
Since the implementation of holy sword is coming can we maybe expect to see some sort of implementation for magic weapon (Clr lvl1, Pal lvl1, Sor/Wiz lvl1) and greater magic weapon (Clr lvl4, Pal lvl3, Sor/Wiz lvl3) in the future? Possibly, keen edge (Sor/Wiz lvl3) as well?

One would have thought all those would have gone in together. Makes me wonder what the hiden agenda is.

LordDamax
06-27-2007, 08:49 AM
One would have thought all those would have gone in together. Makes me wonder what the hiden agenda is.

Workload?

elmerius
06-27-2007, 09:07 AM
NIce and all but I really want to see some more (pure ranger changes)

gpk
06-27-2007, 09:37 AM
I've never understood this "There are other ways to get this ability (or something similar) so this new way to get it is USELESS!!" attitude people seem to have. If you have a Sigil of Earth, then yeah, maybe you'll be using Angel Skin less than other people. But come on, it's a first level spell. That means Paladins can start using it at 4th level. There aren't a lot of 4th level people with access to Sigil of Earth (or even the Stoneskin spell). Yeah it's only 2 more points of DR than Adamantine FP or the Golden Greaves, but it's 2 fewer points of damage every time you get hit. It's really not hard to see how that stacks up over time to a pretty serious effect.
Nightshield is not a paladin spell.

Really last i checked it was listed as:



Angelskin
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Pal 2
Components: V, S, DF
Target: Lawful Good creature touched (self or ally)
Duration: 6 seconds/level

The subject gains damage reduction 5/evil.


How can I get level 2 spell as level 4 pally? That would be awesome!


That is not how Holy Sword works in D&D. Yes you can cast it on an existing weapon, but it overwrites and replaces all magical effects which the weapon already has. Adding +2d6 (i.e. Holy) to an existing weapon, on top of everything else the weapon already has, would not be in keeping with the D&D rules for the spell.


I know it's not how it works in PnP, in the context of DDO it's PNP implementation would be pointless.

Nightshield is not a paladin spell.

Neither clerics nor wizards have a spell that gives a resistance bonus to all saving throws. Clerics have no spell that blocks magic missiles. If there's one spell that I'm excited about it's this one.

As for blocking force-missiles, Shield has always done this, and when I made a big fuss about it once everyone told me I was making a big deal over nothing and that it was actually good for the players (which I grew to be convinced of myself).

But you're saying have no problem with it blocking Force Missiles right? Your cleric must be happy. I guess the goose and the gander are entirely different beasts after all.


A Good and Cold Iron weapon is actually fairly useful against creatures with that sort of DR. Also if it comes down to carrying a greater bane weapon for every time of monster I might ever run across or carrying a small stack (assuming they stack) of these specially prepared Holy Sword weapons, I might do the latter and just sell of my Greater Banes

Im confused does this mean you would replace your +1 (or better) greater bane weapons with a +5 holy for mobs other than DR/good+cold iron? Best let the ppl on your server know when your selling your greater banes so they can reap the benefits of that decision.


As long as were talking about attitudes, and you opened this can of worms; a lot of players and I who actually play DDO (not PnP)and yes have even done teh Titan Raid (gasp, have you yet?) are a little worried that ppl who LIVE in these forums have the devs ears; squeaky wheel gets the oil and such. It's been said a million times DDO is NOT PNP.
It's funny that some of the stuff paladins have been askin IS in PnP; of course it's understanadable not everythign can make it in all at once but when you "nerf" a class to bring it more in line with pnp least you can do is add some other stuff, that one must assume has been on the back burner for a long time, otherwise it's damned hard to see it as rebalancing and not just as a "nerf".

Going back to my earlier point, the vast majority of players DON'T post in the official forums. I think the devs need to keep this in mind, just because said players are out there playing YOUR game and post once in a while it doesn't mean their opinion is any less valid than someone who averages 70 posts/day with post that most of the time revert to the argument "in pnp its this or pnp its that". If anything feedback from people who post a LOT should be taken with a grain of salt.

The sad thing is many many of the players playing the game I've spoken to share this opinion but for whatever reason (often not wanting to "waster" their time debating forum "regulars") actualyl have a lot of good insight and feedback.

I invite players who DON'T post often to maybe take a few minutes to reply to important topics and let their voices be heard. I can tell you as a software dev myself feedback is GREATLY appreciate by any dev team, even if it can come across as a bit negative at times and as an ego bruise.

gpk

Freeman
06-27-2007, 09:55 AM
Long post about getting opinions from people who don't post on the forums

Are you aware that they sent out a survey just a few weeks ago? It didn't go to just people who post on the boards. They probably sent them to a random sample of people with active accounts. My wife has never created a forum account and received a survey. I've been active on the boards since day 1, and I didn't receive one. The Devs are aware that the boards don't represent all the players, and they do take steps to get feedback in other forms. But this is still the largest source of feedback available to them.(Note I said largest. That doesn't mean best)

gpk
06-27-2007, 10:05 AM
Are you aware that they sent out a survey just a few weeks ago? It didn't go to just people who post on the boards. They probably sent them to a random sample of people with active accounts. My wife has never created a forum account and received a survey. I've been active on the boards since day 1, and I didn't receive one. The Devs are aware that the boards don't represent all the players, and they do take steps to get feedback in other forms. But this is still the largest source of feedback available to them.(Note I said largest. That doesn't mean best)

Yes i just wonder how many of those surveys got filled out. I'm hoping MANY. It's very valuable to a design team to get feedback from non-forum-regulars.

Freeman
06-27-2007, 10:09 AM
Yes i just wonder how many of those surveys got filled out. I'm hoping MANY. It's very valuable to a design team to get feedback from non-forum-regulars.

True, but the problem is that they can't force people to give feedback. The good thing about the forums is that anything they post about will receive feedback. If they posted the kind of coffee they have at the office, the thread would go on for pages about what they should be drinking instead. And in most cases, the feedback on here is going to mirror the position of people online. There are some exceptions, I'm sure, such as the Paladin's Holy Sword spell. I don't think the majority of players would feel it was as weak as the majority of posters seem to think it is.

KristovK
06-27-2007, 10:43 AM
gpk, I'm pretty sure the devs and Turbine as a company in general know that only 10-20% of the game's players actually use the forums and only a percentage of those people actually bother to post on the forums. It's been that way since before games were played online, games that sold millions of copies MIGHT have 10000 people who used the company website and forum, if that. Hasn't changed, hundreds of thousands of people playing an online game, a few tens of thousand using the official forums for said game...from WoW to Everquest to DDO to Quake to CS:S to Battlefield2 to Spades on MSN.

Most people who are pleased with something don't ***** about it, pure and simple, so the lack of complaining by the majority of the minority who use the forums says something.

As for MT's mistaking Angelskin for a level 1 instead of level 2 spell...maybe it's a level 1 in the book he's got, I honestly don't know, I don't have that book and can't see, or maybe it was just a typo...*shrug*...doesn't really matter, his point still stands, it's a good spell for a class that otherwise doesn't GET any DR from feats/abilities or spells on their own. My paladin will enjoy the spell and he'll use it. 5 DR/evil is better then anything else he can get short of a stoneskin and he can give it to others as well...except that damned Barbarian or Bard...you know..those lawless heathens a paladin should be having issues with anyway :)

As for the whole 'nerf' vs balance issue thing...eye of the beholder and all that. I have a capped Wiz and the changes to spell durations and lack of scrolls didn't bother me one bit, I actually like the changes that were made, my Wiz is no longer useless if there's a UMD monkey in the party with a few inventory pages of scrolls who can pretty much solo the quest. That was never part of the game design plan and it was abused to hells and back, took them a bit to correct the oversight, but they did and I'm happy with the fixes made to correct it. My Wiz's spells still work fine, last a good time with Extend on them and actually do more then a scroll could anyway.

As for the good insight and changes offered by many of the players who don't play PnP and don't use the forums...eh...I'll beg to differ with you on that subject. 90% of those are just 'easy button' ideas, ways to make the game simple and fast, which doesn't make it fun, just...easy. The game is already a Monty Haul game, players are too overpowered for their levels, toys are too overpowered for the levels and that has naturally led to mobs being overpowered for the levels. People who play PnP keep using the term 'it's like this/not like this in PnP' for a reason...this game is BASED ON the PnP game and it's supposed to be PnP online in realtime with many people at once...seems I recall it's even advertised as such isn't it? Yeah, it is, so..guess what...the refering to PnP is probably something that's going to stick around. There are differences, many having to do to the realtime/turnbased conversion, others due to oversight or bad design from the start, but they are working on that, and those of us who enjoy and know PnP are happy, generally speaking, that it's moving more and more towards PnP and away from 'easy button'.

gpk
06-27-2007, 11:28 AM
I'm all for removing the "easy button" . I have no problem with makin it so you don't solo a quest with a stack of scrolls. My problem with the pnp purists is that many dont seem to actually play the game and don't compare some stuff in the context of DDO. The same old broken record argument (when it's convenient for THEM) of "it's not pnp" is a shallow one and just doesn't hold water imho, there are just too many differences between the 2. I think that when discussing pros and cons of a spell implementation one should look at the context.
Let's use ANgelskin as an example, as a designer I'd ask mysefl (just to list a few off the top of my head):

Whats the average spell points for a paladin able to cast a 2nd level 2 spell, assuming very few paladin will take it angel skin as their 1st lev 2 spell(in lieu of resist energy)
At that level what other equipment is easily obtainable that could offer permanent non dispellable nearly equivalent benefits (given the relatively few SPs and a lot of dispelling mobs this is an issue). Are there much better spells available without too much difficulty to the paladin? (Stoneskin from caster, umd wand/scroll)
At said level is DR5/evil for 6 seconds/level unextended vs DDO mobs (not your whimpy pnp ones) helpful to the player or just a waste of a slot and sp?Don't get me wrong, I applaud tubine's effort in rebalancing the game, it just seems that some classes get the relative shaft.
During the whole rebalancing thing nearly all the classes got something for what they got taken away with enhancements and stuff, bards averaged longer (and a bit stronger) songs in general, barb lost a bit of max str but gained crit range +2 for ALL weapons when raged (when are they not) , other classes who got durations decreased got more SPs, new spells etc. On a related note I wonder how all these closely spaced +1 loot weekends fit into the big picture, but oh well.

It seems a little hypocritical to me that the pnp purist forum junkies who bang the pnp drum all day long don't seem to have a problem with a non pnp spell implementation when it benefits them; but are so quick to pounce on someone else's non pnp compliant posts.

Raithe
06-27-2007, 11:49 AM
The new enhancements for bards are a bit absurd. I really don't think a class that can fascinate, cast enchantment spells as well as any other caster, can use scrolls, and can hit an attack bonus that is slightly better than what most melee can achieve on their own needed much attention.

Spellsinger, in particular, is overpowered. Bards with max charisma could have a higher powered DC than either a wizard or sorceror.

These development decisions are really lame, and make me extremely sad for the future of the game.

Coldin
06-27-2007, 12:06 PM
Spellsinger, in particular, is overpowered. Bards with max charisma could have a higher powered DC than either a wizard or sorceror.


Except for the fact that any bard with spellsinger will be boosting everyone else's save DC as well.

Mad_Bombardier
06-27-2007, 12:20 PM
Except for the fact that any bard with spellsinger will be boosting everyone else's save DC as well.
And for the fact that Bard spell levels are 1-3 lower than full Arcane (always 3 lower if Bard and Arcane uses heighten).

wiglin
06-27-2007, 12:29 PM
The new enhancements for bards are a bit absurd. I really don't think a class that can fascinate, cast enchantment spells as well as any other caster, can use scrolls, and can hit an attack bonus that is slightly better than what most melee can achieve on their own needed much attention.

Spellsinger, in particular, is overpowered. Bards with max charisma could have a higher powered DC than either a wizard or sorceror.

These development decisions are really lame, and make me extremely sad for the future of the game.

Wizard's and Sorcerer's will get level 9 spells while the Bard tops out at level 6 spells. That is a 3 DC difference. If you are in a party with a bard their buff will give you +1 to your dc, so no matter how you slice it bards will be 3 DC behind wizard's and sorcerer's.

If anything this buff will help the crowd control caster bard's from becoming obsolete when the other casters have +3 dc over them in a few more levels.

I like the new enhancements. I am happy with the way they are balanced. Some more useful than others. You can never cater to everyone, and most of the people I have played with never even look at these forums. They don't even care what Turbine does, they just enjoy playing the game and roll with whatever comes out.

Obviously you can't back it up with numbers, but from my experience from playing on Adar and Fernia, most of the player base would fall into this group of people. I have yet to meet someone outside of these forums that really moans and complains about Turbine's decisions for this game, and up until recently I have leveled almost completely from pugs comprising of alot of different people.

Zorlinta
06-27-2007, 12:40 PM
The new enhancements for bards are a bit absurd. I really don't think a class that can fascinate, cast enchantment spells as well as any other caster, can use scrolls, and can hit an attack bonus that is slightly better than what most melee can achieve on their own needed much attention.

Spellsinger, in particular, is overpowered. Bards with max charisma could have a higher powered DC than either a wizard or sorceror.

These development decisions are really lame, and make me extremely sad for the future of the game.

Many of the cc spells dont have the charisma mod into the dc, just the caster level :p

anyway...

TY TURBINE, the changes are awesome :) keep working hard :) and please fix fascinate perform requeriment as should be.

yet personally im still have hard time choosing between virtuoso & spellsinger both are so good for my build and gameplay that i would not sure what to choose.

KristovK
06-27-2007, 12:44 PM
*chuckle* key words there gpk, benefits them :)

I was personally surprised as hells when I first discovered that Shield blocks Force Missiles. I'd never noticed that before..probably because I don't use FM much and I'd not had them cast at me that I was aware of, don't look at my combat log with my Wiz unless something suddenly kills me out of nowhere. Was in the Lobster waiting on the Loot Weekend to start, messing around in PvP with some friends, something I generally don't do at all. I cast Force Missile at a buddy, the shield effect popped up on him and no damage. We were both rather shocked because we had no idea that FM could be stopped(I then hit him with FtS and de-leveled him to death with my Dreamspitter, we WERE trying to kill each other ya know). I wonder how many mobs have been casting that spell and I never realized it because I thought it was MM being cast.

I LIKE that it stops FM, but it IS wrong from PnP and it really should be fixed, as should the Nightshield. Of course, in PnP you can get dr/force, which we don't have in DDO, so I guess this little 'alteration' of the spells is an acceptable workaround....for the time being.

And you are correct in one thing, some of the PnP purists haven't played much, if any, of the current high content or done the raids, so they don't realize exactly how unbalanced some things really are. Problem is, the answer to that is often what they want, making the game more true to PnP. Characters are way overpowered in DDO compared to PnP for the same levels, even WITH a high magic/Monty Haul world. Oddly enough, I've seen some of the purists claim that any character of our levels in DDO could get the same things, item wise, as we get because it IS in the PnP rules. They discard that that those rules are to limit what you can get, the highest possible you could have by level is just that, the best you COULD get, not what everyone SHOULD have. Some of that 'easy button' mentality does pervade the PnP purists as well, if it works to their advantage AND is strictly 'by the book'.

Paladins are holy warriors, real pain in the ass to play in PnP due to the strict rules regarding so much of their actions and inactions, but they make up for that by being really good at fighting evil..but that's about it. They don't get the nice AC bonuses like DDO, none of those enhancement lines to boost their own saves and others, no extra Lay on Hands, Smite Evil and so on. Paladins in DDO are actually a fun class to play with a lot of power, and a bit closer to their PnP counterparts now then before, but still way overpowered compared to PnP. Same goes for every class in DDO compared to their PnP counterparts. And that's not comparing them to the mobs in DDO compared to PnP, most of those are about the same except for the inflated hit points..same HD, same saves and AB/AC...on Normal setting that is, Hard and Elite inflate HD/AB/AC and saves along with hit points. Players are way overpowered, so mobs have to be..and we know that song. Dropping Players to the PnP settings across the board and dropping mobs to that as well would really **** off the players, even the PnP purists, believe it or not. How many people would be happy with getting 3 or 4 1st level spells per rest with a Wizard at 1st level? Not KNOWING 3, but only able to CAST 3 spells total. Sorcs would get 3 or 4 as well. Bards would get 1 or 2 per rest. Barbarians could only rage 1 per rest until level 4th level and they couldn't boost the length of the rage or the str or con or saves or dr...and so on. Want to taste what's it like? Try out NWN or NWN2. Now, take that and make it realtime instead of turnbased. Of course, by the same token, that would probably make DDO appeal to a lot more people from the NWN/NWN2 crowd who can't stand the overpowered system DDO has(I was one of those, actually turned down my beta invite due to what I'd heard about DDO and it's overpowered system..not to mention Eberron...***?).

This would of course require a complete revamp of the quests in DDO and a removal of shrines and instead allowing the players to simply 'rest' whenever they felt like..or perhaps do what NWN has as an option, timers. 48 minutes of real time in NWN is 24 hours of game time, and you can set rest timers to anything you want, so you can rest anytime or every X hours. Be simple enough to do with DDO, X real time = Y DDO time and you can only rest every Z DDO hours. Works great in NWN, no reason it wouldn't in DDO. Of course, that means you have to take more time to do quests, since zerging wouldn't be feasible, and you couldn't expect the casters to buff everyone, half the time they wouldn't be able to buff anyone but themselves, and healing by a cleric would be very much a case by case basis, 3 spells ya know, and while each one would probably heal anyone in the party to full...well...it's only 1 hour since we rested, 7 hours to go...sorry Barbarian, but you being down to 8 from 14 isn't that much of an emergency. And the flip side...4hp + con if any for a Wiz/Sorc at 1st level...a kobold sneezing on them kills them :) Any mob with a 2hder is a scary scary thing for ANY class, one hit can kill a 2rd level Barbarian and any 3rd level other class!

Me, I'd love it, it's what I wanted and it's why I played NWN for years. Lends itself well to the MMO format, but it does NOT lend itself to the zergling style of play so prevelent in DDO, and MMOs in general to be honest. It would garner Turbine that huge(over 4 million active dedicated NWN fans) customer base that Bioware had who so looked forward to DDO(until they saw what was happening) and got turned off by the overpowered system in use and the 10th level cap at release. Ain't gonna happen, I know that, and I enjoy DDO as it is and what seems to be coming in the future, from what we're getting and what the interviews have said. The enhancement lines are starting to worry me a bit, we've been told Prestige classes are in the line but if enhancements are how they plan on delivering them...well...bugger that.

EspyLacopa
06-27-2007, 01:01 PM
Of course, in PnP you can get dr/force, which we don't have in DDO,

Could you point out where? The only source I know of is the Ablate Force ability of the Argent Savant, and it's applied against the spell as a whole instead of per missile. Also caps out at 5 force resistance.

There's also the fact that in PnP, Spell Resistance is applied to most damage spells. . .

Raithe
06-27-2007, 01:47 PM
Wizard's and Sorcerer's will get level 9 spells while the Bard tops out at level 6 spells. That is a 3 DC difference. If you are in a party with a bard their buff will give you +1 to your dc, so no matter how you slice it bards will be 3 DC behind wizard's and sorcerer's.


If you are talking about the FoD/Flesh2Stone instakills then you are probably right, but then bards don't get FoD or Flesh to Stone - so it's not an interesting point. I don't see casters running around casting symbol spells all the time simply because they are higher level spells (= higher DC), and other than FoD/Flesh2Stone, I would say the most useful spells are the same ones bards do get and get at a lower level. Spellsinger will make it so bard's can spend less spell points for the same effectiveness as a high level wizard/sorceror (minus the FoD/Flesh2Stone). This seems a little wrong to me.



If anything this buff will help the crowd control caster bard's from becoming obsolete when the other casters have +3 dc over them in a few more levels.


If fascinate gets fixed, my bard will have around a DC 50 + d20 enchantment. I don't see many wizards or sorcerors achieving anywhere near that. If it doesn't get fixed, it's even more effective than that. Bard's aren't made obsolete by the game mechanics, it's mainly the playerbase that doesn't have a clue.

I'm particularly scared that enhancements like these will give a clue to most of those players - and then we'll see nothing but bards everywhere.



I like the new enhancements. I am happy with the way they are balanced. Some more useful than others. You can never cater to everyone, and most of the people I have played with never even look at these forums. They don't even care what Turbine does, they just enjoy playing the game and roll with whatever comes out.

Obviously you can't back it up with numbers, but from my experience from playing on Adar and Fernia, most of the player base would fall into this group of people. I have yet to meet someone outside of these forums that really moans and complains about Turbine's decisions for this game, and up until recently I have leveled almost completely from pugs comprising of alot of different people.

I'm all for letting things that aren't game breaking go without complaint. I found most of the complaints about the dragonmarks silly and lacking in imagination. The dragonmarks aren't overpowered, though, and add flavor to the game without breaking it.

I'm not sure I can say the same about these enhancements.

Coldin
06-27-2007, 01:53 PM
If you are talking about the FoD/Flesh2Stone instakills then you are probably right, but then bards don't get FoD or Flesh to Stone - so it's not an interesting point. I don't see casters running around casting symbol spells all the time simply because they are higher level spells (= higher DC), and other than FoD/Flesh2Stone, I would say the most useful spells are the same ones bards do get and get at a lower level. Spellsinger will make it so bard's can spend less spell points for the same effectiveness as a high level wizard/sorceror (minus the FoD/Flesh2Stone). This seems a little wrong to me.

But for any group that has a bard in it, the mages in that group will reap the same rewards as the bard for the spellsinger enhancement. They'll recieve the +1 DC and -10% to spell costs. So I'm really not sure what your point is. The only extra things the bard receives from the Spellsinger enhancement is some more sp and higher UMD and Concentration skill checks.

EspyLacopa
06-27-2007, 02:07 PM
If you are talking about the FoD/Flesh2Stone instakills then you are probably right, but then bards don't get FoD or Flesh to Stone - so it's not an interesting point. I don't see casters running around casting symbol spells all the time simply because they are higher level spells (= higher DC), and other than FoD/Flesh2Stone, I would say the most useful spells are the same ones bards do get and get at a lower level. Spellsinger will make it so bard's can spend less spell points for the same effectiveness as a high level wizard/sorceror (minus the FoD/Flesh2Stone). This seems a little wrong to me.

Ummm

In nearly every single case, because a Bard gets the spell at a lower spell level, it therefore has a lower save than a Wizard's or Sorcerer's.

Mass Suggestion from Bard: 15+Stat
Mass Suggestion from Mage: 16+Stat

Hey, look, the Mage has a higher save on that!

This happens on nearly every single spell that Bards get, with a few exceptions for level 1 spells.

At best, it makes the bard equal to the mage in spellcasting prowess. At worst, they're still behind due to what Heighten does. (17+stat for Mages, 15+stat for bards)

wiglin
06-27-2007, 02:21 PM
When you apply the hieghten feet the wizard and sorcerer will get to turn that hypnotism into a level 9 dc spell.

The bard can turn the same spell into a level 6 dc spell.

The difference is 3 dc in favor of the sorcerer and wizard.

Raithe
06-27-2007, 02:27 PM
But for any group that has a bard in it, the mages in that group will reap the same rewards as the bard for the spellsinger enhancement. They'll recieve the +1 DC and -10% to spell costs. So I'm really not sure what your point is. The only extra things the bard receives from the Spellsinger enhancement is some more sp and higher UMD and Concentration skill checks.

You obviously aren't getting my point, because you are claiming that the bard's ability to affect everyone else's DC somehow makes my point foundless. That ability will only make bards more popular, and it is an excess of popularity that I am worried about.

You'll understand when your wizard gets turned down for a caster spot in a PUG because the group leader wants a bard.

GeneralDiomedes
06-27-2007, 02:33 PM
You obviously aren't getting my point, because you are claiming that the bard's ability to affect everyone else's DC somehow makes my point foundless. That ability will only make bards more popular, and it is an excess of popularity that I am worried about.

You'll understand when your wizard gets turned down for a caster spot in a PUG because the group leader wants a bard.

You mean .. the party that already has 3 Sorcerers and 2 Wizards? :D

KristovK
06-27-2007, 02:34 PM
Espy, anything can be put on an item, including dr/force, had a nasty DM who had a bad guy warrior with bracers of 20/force, totally negating MM and FM...caster in our party tended to abuse those spells, no save, no to hit required, only SR to check against. But the point is, in PnP, if you want it on an item, it can be put on an item. Since SR doesn't work as it should in DDO, dr/force items would be a nice touch :)

And on that Bard DC bit...huh? Bards casting the same CC spell a Wiz/Sorc does, like Dancing Ball, have a lower DC against their spells because it's a lower level spell. Bards are always behind the curve vs Wiz/Sorc on the DCs because of that and the fact that they top out with 6th level spells. Dancing Ball is a 5th level Bard spell, 7th Wiz/Sorc, so the DC for the Bard is 2 less then the Wiz/Sorc, even though gotten at the same time by the Bard(13th level). Bards aren't powerful casters, they are ok casters, don't confuse the two :) They have some handy spells, but they really don't compare to a pure arcane caster even when using the same spells if there's saves involved.

Raithe
06-27-2007, 02:35 PM
At best, it makes the bard equal to the mage in spellcasting prowess.


Isn't that exactly what my post stated? Only you forgot to mention that 1 lower level = 5 less spell points.



At worst, they're still behind due to what Heighten does. (17+stat for Mages, 15+stat for bards)

Yes, I already stipulated that wizards and sorcerors get higher level spells. That means they cost more as well as having a higher DC. It's really more appropriate to compare spells of the same level (where some bards will have a higher DC than other casters) or compare identical spells (where some bards will have equivalent DCs but their spells will cost significantly less).

KristovK
06-27-2007, 02:37 PM
Isn't that exactly what my post stated? Only you forgot to mention that 1 lower level = 5 less spell points.



Yes, I already stipulated that wizards and sorcerors get higher level spells. That means they cost more as well as having a higher DC. It's really more appropriate to compare spells of the same level (where some bards will have a higher DC than other casters) or compare identical spells (where some bards will have equivalent DCs but their spells will cost significantly less).

Ok...I did just that for you already...Dancing Ball. Level 5 Bard spell, level 7 Wiz/Sorc spell. Costs less for the Bard to cast and has a DC 2 lower then the Wiz/Sorc version of the same spell, and the Bard and Wiz both get it at level 13 while the Sorc doesn't get it until level 14. I'd rather count on a Wiz or Sorc casting of that spell then a Bard, 2 points on a DC is the difference between an 18 required compared to a 20.

Raithe
06-27-2007, 02:50 PM
You mean .. the party that already has 3 Sorcerers and 2 Wizards? :D

Which brings up the point that the paladin class needs to be fixed, once and for all, so we don't keep coming up with all these paladin halfbreeds that make the game ridiculous.