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Cowdenicus
06-25-2007, 12:58 PM
As a cleric, I would love to be able to play this class. The coding is in place for this class basically (as you have both clerics and wizzies/sorcs) and would breathe new life into this game for some people.

From a game play perspective it would also be alot of fun.....

My advice is to go from something like this....

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/mysticTheurge.htm

I do not believe though that this could be done from enhancements.

Freeman
06-25-2007, 01:03 PM
Does the class include uber forum posting abilities? +5 to ninja posting?

Cowdenicus
06-25-2007, 01:04 PM
Does the class include uber forum posting abilities? +5 to ninja posting?

it should. and a special pic of the heavens parting and the lights shining forth.

MysticTheurge
06-25-2007, 04:43 PM
I have to admit I was a little confused by this thread title at first, but I do agree with the sentiment.

While they're at it, Eldritch Knight (Full BAB, 9/10 arcane spellcasting progression and a bonus feat) is equally easy. Those two would be a good test for implementing a real prestige class system.

Shawhan
06-25-2007, 04:50 PM
Would love to see some starting points for things like this. This PrC in particular interests me a ton.

Shawhan

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 05:12 PM
Those two would be a good test for implementing a real prestige class system.
Given the popularity of rog1/wiz13 builds, the Arcane Trickster class could also be attractive, although the core ability of adding sneak attack damage to weaponlike spells would need coding to implement. (Coding that should be done regardless of prestige classes)

The Mystic Theurge class would have a serious design challenge in terms of how to represent the multiple sources of spellcasting, because DDO doesn't have a way to give separate non-stacking mana bars to a character with multiple casting classes. You'd have to make an ad-hoc translation to come up with a mana total for the Mystic that is fair to regular wizards and clerics; simply giving them the total mana gained by one wizard level + one cleric level would be overpowered and out of line with the PnP original.

A naive version of a DDO Mystic Theurge might be a superior blaster, since applying metamagic is based on your number of spell points, not your level of spell slots. A PnP MT would always have lower-level slots than a comprable wizard, so he can't apply the same amount of meta to a single spell for peak damage per round. But without those limitations, it could be too strong in DDO.

However, I'm confident Turbine could keep those problems in mind and reach a solution that keeps all the classes useful.

Merlask
06-25-2007, 05:26 PM
I have to admit I was a little confused by this thread title at first, but I do agree with the sentiment.


Ditto I was like 'what's wrong with Mystic the way he is??????' :confused: :D

*slips away and returns you to your regularly scheduled thread discussion*

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-25-2007, 06:11 PM
I have to admit I was a little confused by this thread title at first, but I do agree with the sentiment.

While they're at it, Eldritch Knight (Full BAB, 9/10 arcane spellcasting progression and a bonus feat) is equally easy. Those two would be a good test for implementing a real prestige class system.

Yeah, pure tanks are already just about obsolete, lets put the nail in thier coffin!!!! WOOT!!!

MysticTheurge
06-25-2007, 07:58 PM
Yeah, pure tanks are already just about obsolete, lets put the nail in thier coffin!!!! WOOT!!!

Welcome to D&D 3.5 where pretty much everyone multiclasses and/or takes a prestige class.

I can't remember the last time I saw a 20-level base class character (or planned progression) in a D&D campaign.

chemonz
06-25-2007, 08:02 PM
Sorry but pure tanks would not be obsolete with the implementation of the Eldritch Knight prestige class and here is why.

1) low hp (6 per lvl) hit points are more important than ever as AC doesn't protect you enough no matter how high it is.

2) EK need proficiency in all martial weapons which means they need to take one level of a melee class, and then at level 1 they gain no new spells meaning they are always 2 levels behind a pure caster build. And EK wizards lose out on extra wizard feats beyond lvl 5 (minimum needed for this PrC).

3) It's hard to get their AC up very high which means they will get hit even more often than a true tank. Combined with problem #1 means they are very poor as true tanks. EK can't use heavy armor and shields very effectively due to arcane spell failure. To use mithral chain he needs high dex, and he also needs high int/cha leaving very little to put into con...which goes back to problem #1.

They are good as an off-tank back-up melee combat who can throw in some cc and firewall to support the true tanks in the party, but he can't replace them and battlemages never really can.

I think that melee classes have been ruling the roost completely for so long and have come to expect arcane classes to be their buff support and little else for too long. At higher levels arcanes are coming into their own, as it should be, and everyone needs to adjust a little. There is still a place for tanks in a party and their always will be. They won't be the most important part of the party, just one important part of an integral whole.

While we are at it we could add my favorite PrC the Arcane Archer!!:D

MysticTheurge
06-25-2007, 08:10 PM
Given the popularity of rog1/wiz13 builds, the Arcane Trickster class could also be attractive, although the core ability of adding sneak attack damage to weaponlike spells would need coding to implement. (Coding that should be done regardless of prestige classes)

That's not actually an ability of Arcane Trickster. It should just happen automatically for weapon-like spells provided you meet the criteria for a sneak attack (and have a sneak attack of course).

Which of course you imply in your last sentence, but I just thought I'd make it clear.

They should also, of course, have a chance to crit automatically and require an attack roll.

JosephKell
06-26-2007, 01:00 AM
The traditional EK in PnP was a Ray Shooter. The BAB was great to ensure those ranged touch attacks went off, but in DDO rays don't need attack rolls, they just have to hit (or get pretty close).

Or the EK was used as a finisher class for Gish builds.

Honestly, as Prestige Classes go (and I have a lot of experience with min/maxing with them) the Arcane Trickster, Mystic Theurge, and Eldritch Knight aren't dangerous to game balance.

HOWEVER, I think the EK could be better (and easier) implimented by just adding the Duskblade class from the PHB2. Duskblade (if modified to make it more real-time friendly) would be much more satisfying to play because you start off as a magical sharpshooter and have some melee ability, although you never get the ever-loved haste.

But a lot of prestige classes that are written and published don't add to the game except as Power Creep.

The ones that don't add to the Power Creep are those that allow certain multiclass archetypes (typically those involving spellcasting) to not suck. MT's would be welcome in DDO mostly because they can Buff as Wizards, Heal as Clerics, and have lots of spell points/spells concentrated into one smallish package. Actually I wouldn't be surprised to see two Sorcerer/Cleric/MT's in a party DVing each other.

But the Arcane Trickster isn't really vital to the game, the best features of the class are: key rogue skills are class (the 4+Int base is kind of nice, but the big thing is the skill list) and Impromptu Sneak Attack. However, ISA could be simulated by using a deception item (there is a chance on hit of shadowing the target making them vulnerable to sneak attacks). But taking the 2 extra Rogue levels to get into AT hurt the character more than the tightness of skill points as a Rogue 1/Wizard X.

-JK

KristovK
06-26-2007, 02:56 AM
The Mystic Theurge(class, not the personality) would be a great addition to DDO and it's one of the PrCs that I personally hope they add as it's one of my favorites, admittedly due to it being overpowered in higher levels :)

The mana issue is a serious one, as a MT has 2x the mana of anyone else the same level(for DDO's purposes that is) but metamagics wouldn't be an issue, MT's don't get all that many feats(standard 1/3 levels) and the one truely important feat for a MT is one we don't even have...Still Spell. Extend is another must have for MT's, since their caster level is always 3 behind their total level, as is Heighten for the same reason. Most MTs take the Silent meta as well, as they are often the target of Silence spells due to their huge arsenal of spells even at lower levels.

One thing we'd really miss out on with the MT is the Domain abilities of the Cleric side.

That..and not being able to take more then 3 classes total...since the penultimate build is a Wiz/Cleric/MT/Archmage/Heirophant :)

Gennerik
06-26-2007, 07:46 AM
Welcome to D&D 3.5 where pretty much everyone multiclasses and/or takes a prestige class.

I can't remember the last time I saw a 20-level base class character (or planned progression) in a D&D campaign.

Actually, MysticTheurge, in the last campaign I played in, we had two people that stuck to single base classes (a Rogue and a Fighter). I, however, was all Prestige Classed up as an Arcane Trickster and Master Arcane Artisan. So it does happen, just not very often.

Personally, I'm torn between Turbine adding actual Prestige Classes and just implementing them through enhancements. I'm not a big re-roller of characters. I still have my original 28-point Cleric (Made before I ever really played the game, so no DVs, fairly low Charisma, more geared towards combat and healing) as well as my 28-point Barbarian/Fighter that I actually get all my favor with. Were they to implement Prestige Classes, many people would be past level 10, meaning that they miss out on the full progression of their PrC until after epic levels are introduced.

However, as enhancements, then multiclassed characters fall back because suddenly they get hit on the number of enhancements they can choose because they're spending them on the PrC enhancements just trying to catch up on the loss they got from multiclassing in the first place.

Then there's just things that are missing from a good number of the PrCs mentioned. For an Arcane Trickster, that sneak attack is really only useful when you can apply it to your ray and touch spells (which we can't). Mystic Theurges are great, but really all you get without having each SP total separate is versatility as to what role you fit in for any given party (and they can't just increase the SP totals because then it throws off the SP totals of other classes). I guess some of these are why we haven't seen Prestige Classes yet, since to really be implemented, there's going to be a lot of recoding to be done.

Malachi_Stormlight2
06-26-2007, 02:58 PM
Mystic Thuerge is too overpowered to be implemented. He has to have at least +100 to Knowledge skill DnD, +10 to Ninja Post Sneak attack damage, and apparently is not affected by the -5 wisdom penalty the rest of us suffer when reading the forums.

As he is I dont think Mystic should be allowed ;)

Seneca_Windforge
06-27-2007, 01:18 AM
Welcome to D&D 3.5 where pretty much everyone multiclasses and/or takes a prestige class.

I can't remember the last time I saw a 20-level base class character (or planned progression) in a D&D campaign.

In my campaign: Brd10, Sor10, Ftr10, Clr10...and not because prestige classes are forbidden.

Edit: And I don't think that any of them are planning on any prestige classes in the future.

Xyfiel
06-27-2007, 02:36 AM
My arcane trickster build is based off my pnp build. I would love to have 4 more skills maxed, and 5d6 more sneak. All at the cost of 2 magic feats. I made him when they announced tensers since that is my main spell. The addiition of displacement also helped. Now if I can get the PrC, mirror image, and prot from arrows he would be almost pnp.

Not all AT's are mages, some are built to be rogues with self buffing with nuking only 8 hours away.

Uska
06-27-2007, 02:50 AM
Welcome to D&D 3.5 where pretty much everyone multiclasses and/or takes a prestige class.

I can't remember the last time I saw a 20-level base class character (or planned progression) in a D&D campaign.

In the few 3.0-3.5 games I have been in no one has done a prestige class or an expansion book class and there was only one or two people multiclassing.

I think the last game was

11 shifter rogue
11 valanar wiz
10 wf fighter
12 cleric human
10 wf artificer
10 half-orc druid
2/8 rogue wiz gnome
some other guy multiclassing a dwarf fighter cleric in some way
lvls might have been closer but everyone died at some point except the cleric

larger then normal group gm would allow prestige class, but noone likes powergaming or munckins and we all hate the phbII by way

BluePaladin24
06-27-2007, 12:52 PM
Alright on the subject of prestige classes. The only thing I really have to say is imagine Drow Black Guards, Assasins, and wiz/clr mystic theurge. Oh yes it would be sweet.

And for the record, yes mystic theurge is a powerful class, but they can not wear armor like normal casters can't, they only get 1d4 hit points, and never get access to the most powerful of spells, becasue after lvl 20 you no longer gain new spells per level unless you take special feats. I do love this class, but in every campaign I play one he dies shortly after I break the lvl 1 barrier of the class.

Also I would really like to see other prestige classes put in like Knight of the Chalice, Hunter of the Dead, Raimbow Servant, Radiant Servant of Pelor (Or the Sovereign Host).

To be honest I love prestige classes, but I would rather see some of the expansion classes like favored soul, warmage, or Hexblade.

JosephKell
06-27-2007, 01:17 PM
Alright on the subject of prestige classes. The only thing I really have to say is imagine Drow Black Guards, Assasins, and wiz/clr mystic theurge. Oh yes it would be sweet.

And for the record, yes mystic theurge is a powerful class, but they can not wear armor like normal casters can't, they only get 1d4 hit points, and never get access to the most powerful of spells, becasue after lvl 20 you no longer gain new spells per level unless you take special feats. I do love this class, but in every campaign I play one he dies shortly after I break the lvl 1 barrier of the class.[/quote]MT isn't powerful (as written for PnP), it just allows Arcanist-Diviners to work. In DDO it is probably more powerful since you pool SP. But they can easily be tweaked.

However you are wrong about the level 20 thing. Spell per day (SP in this case) increasing stops when you get to the end of the progression. To use a simple solution, Fighter 10/Wizard X. At character level 20, it is Fighter 10/Wizard 10 with a BAB of +15. At level 30 it is Fighter 10/Wizard 20 with a BAB of +15 and an Epic Attack Bonus (no iterative attacks) of +5. But it still casts spells as a level 20 wizard. And it can't take the feat that gives a higher slot until it reachs Wizard 20 and has completed the spellcasting progression.

The big thing about MT's is that it is 10 levels. So after Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 10, they have to choose between Cleric or Wizard (I however would make a Sorcerer in DDO because of the sp from items and the Charisma synergy with Cleric). The real problem is when additional Prestige Classes are added in that also add to an Arcane and Divine class.
Also I would really like to see other prestige classes put in like Knight of the Chalice, Hunter of the Dead, Raimbow Servant, Radiant Servant of Pelor (Or the Sovereign Host).A lot of those PrC's just add Power Creep to the game. I hope they NEVER add Radiant Servant of Pelor or Exorcist of the Silver Flame. Or Dragon Disciple... Or most of them written. If a PrC isn't added a multiclass ability (like the MT, Arcane Trickster, or Eldritch Knight) it is just going for power. Focusing is what PCs do. Who cares if you are good with Swords if you are GREAT with Axes? Who cares if you suck at melee if you are a Wizard and use spells exclusively?
To be honest I love prestige classes, but I would rather see some of the expansion classes like favored soul, warmage, or Hexblade.I'ld rather have Duskblades over Hexblades. But that's because Duskblades are the s*** (also, WF Duskblade totally works). Hexblades are kind of cool though.

-JK

dmitri
06-27-2007, 01:23 PM
Alright on the subject of prestige classes. The only thing I really have to say is imagine Drow Black Guards, Assasins, and wiz/clr mystic theurge. Oh yes it would be sweet.

And for the record, yes mystic theurge is a powerful class, but they can not wear armor like normal casters can't, they only get 1d4 hit points, and never get access to the most powerful of spells, becasue after lvl 20 you no longer gain new spells per level unless you take special feats. I do love this class, but in every campaign I play one he dies shortly after I break the lvl 1 barrier of the class.

Also I would really like to see other prestige classes put in like Knight of the Chalice, Hunter of the Dead, Raimbow Servant, Radiant Servant of Pelor (Or the Sovereign Host).

To be honest I love prestige classes, but I would rather see some of the expansion classes like favored soul, warmage, or Hexblade.

About not getting new spells at epic, that is not entirely correct. After 10 lvls of MT you alternate levels of divine and arcane spells. True Necro FTW...

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 01:33 PM
The real problem is when additional Prestige Classes are added in that also add to an Arcane and Divine class.A lot of those PrC's just add Power Creep to the game. I hope they NEVER add Radiant Servant of Pelor or Exorcist of the Silver Flame. Or Dragon Disciple... Or most of them written.
Ha ha. You can't mean to say Dragon Disciple is overpowered? Take a sorceror and stop his spell advancement in exchange for 3/4 BAB, d12 HD, and some natural weapons that are worse than the magic weapons you could craft yourself if you just stayed a caster. For a spellcaster to stop increasing his spell level is the opposite of overpowered.

BluePaladin24
06-27-2007, 01:51 PM
Talk about over powered. The dusk blade, yes I want to use all wpns, wear all armor, cast spells, and get bonus spell penetration. Imagine what the enhancements could be. (Drool) I believe that this should be implemented imediatly. I demand it (J/K)

I also did not want to get too greedy. With the current system a true necromancer would not be able to create a vast army to lay siege to stormreach with (don't even try to tell me you wouldn't, I am a Paladin, and that is what I would do). The create undead spells are not that great as of this moment until you get the higher ones where you create multiple undead. It would still be cool to have the class option though.

JosephKell
06-27-2007, 02:50 PM
Ha ha. You can't mean to say Dragon Disciple is overpowered? Take a sorceror and stop his spell advancement in exchange for 3/4 BAB, d12 HD, and some natural weapons that are worse than the magic weapons you could craft yourself if you just stayed a caster. For a spellcaster to stop increasing his spell level is the opposite of overpowered.(1) Only if you were making a offensive casting Sorcerer.
(2) If you can't see the Template from the Spellcasting.

Half-Dragon Template:
Abilities: +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha
Armor: +4 Natural Armor
Special Attacks: Breath Weapon (1/day in PnP, probably 3/day in DDO)
Special Qualities:
-- IMMUNITY to the same energy as your Breath Weapon (I would LOVE to have straight up Fire Immunity).
-- Wings (I would impliment it as a toggleable featherfall and as a bonus on jump checks).
-- Immunity to Paralysis (I believe Hold Person is a Paralysis effect).
-- DRAGON SUBTYPE (you are no longer a humanoid, so those bosses with Elf Bane weapons don't do extra damage to you).

Other benefits of the Dragon Disciple class:
-- d12 HD.
-- Strong Fort and Will saves.
-- NO Level Adjustment while receiving the Half-Dragon template (normally +3).
-- a few extra spell slots (hey, if I were doing PnP, I would probably still take Sorcerer and suck up the 10-20% ASF).

I once played with a guy in the Living Greyhawk campaign of the RPGA that had a Paladin 2/Sorcerer 5 that was going to enter the Dragon Disciple Prestige Class, it took the extra Sorcerer levels to get Wraithstrike (before it was banned for VERY good reason) and Blink. All the extra DD slots were gonna be 2nd level so he could literally explode monsters with his Guisarme.

Wraithstrike is a swift spell that allows all your melee attacks for the round to be settled as TOUCH attacks (i.e. the thing is f***ed). Blink let him attack through doors (in the adventure I played with his character that did this, the NPCs slammed a garage door). So he Power Attacked for full (-4 to hit, +8 damage) and still hit on lower d20 rolls than ANYONE else at the table.

"Losses" of the class:
-- 3/4 BAB. So over 10 levels you lose 3 BAB. But the Strength makes up for it a lot (net +1 to hit and +4 to 6 damage).

Barbarian 4/Bard 1/Dragon Disciple is pretty hot (or it was in PnP when Barbarian was more of 1-2 level class since Extra Rage was added to the game).
Paladin 4/Sorcerer 1/Dragon Disciple is also nice.
But I can totally see Bard 4/Fighter 1/Dragon Disciple X being fairly powerful in DDO.

Also, this is DDO, do you think that the Developers are gonna code it so that Dragon Disciple only adds X SP where X is the cost of your highest level spell that isn't being affected by Metamagic? They'ld probably impliment it as every even level increasing your spellcasting progression by 1. So Dragon Disciple 10 would give +5 to your spellcasting level, in which case Dragon Disciples would almost exclusively be Bards with a Fighter dip.

Let's pretend it is September and DDO introduced the Half-Orc, the Dragon Disciple (with even levels increasing spellcasting), and raised the cap to 16.
Bard 4/Fighter 2/Dragon Disciple 10 would have:
BAB +12/+12/+17/+22, Fort +11, Ref +7, Will +11, Template Stats (+8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha), Fighter Stat Enhancement (+1).

Half-Orc with 32 pt and +2 Str tome:
Level 1 Bard: Str 20 (16), Dex 14 (6), Con 12* (4), Int 6 (0), Wis 8 (0), Cha 12 (6) (Clovenjaw Warbeads make up for it, everyone that has done STK more than six times has at least 2 of these things for new rolls)
Template: +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Int, +2 Cha
4 Level increases: +4 Str
Fighter Enhancement Str: +1
Ogre Strength: +5
Bard Enhancement Cha: +1
Charismic Item: +3 (I have several and I haven't even capped a character yet)

Level 16 Dragon Disciple Mut: Str 38, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 8, Cha 18
Additional stat items aren't that hard to find. +4 Dex and Con items, the Wisdom/Will Save helmet...

So figure it finishes around having standing stats of Str 38, Dex 18 (maybe 20), Con 18, Int 8 (maybe boost it more with items incase of feeblemind), Wis 10(?), Cha 18+. Since it could probably still cast haste as a Bard 4/Dragon Disciple 10 (Bard 9 spells if they took the easier implimentation of DD), it is gonna start to look at lot like a Barbarian, without having to rage (yeah this could splash Barbarian for more raging goodness, but why bother since it would have like only 1-2 per rest?).

What is the high watermark for Barbarian Strength? I think I've seen 36 or 38 (although that would go up by 2 as Half-Orcs are subbed for Dwarves). Granted the Barb would be in Mithril FP (while this would probably use Mithril Breast Plate if possible).

The Half-Dragon Template is pretty awesome. Even more so when you don't give up HD for it (the DD class effectively is 7 levels of Full BAB, strong Fort/Will and 10d12 HD for those levels). In DDO, 3d12 HD with 16 Con is 45 hit points.

Re: Duskblades. Duskblades are only broken in PnP when you allow a player to spend several minutes explaining how it is Channel Spelling VT through a Whirlwind Attack with a Spiked Chain. Assuming they changed it for the channel spell thing (I imagine they would), it could be easily fixed/balanced. For example, the first Channel Spell would take effect on your next swing. The Full Attack Channel Spell would take effect starting on the beginning of your next swing chain and end when that chain ends (either by using them all or idling till it resets). However, I imagine that CS would have a cooldown of at least as long as Smite Evil.

Although, I bet we would see a lot of Cleaving/Great Cleaving duskblades way outdamaging everyone else as they abused Vampiric Touch (which isn't implimented in DDO). VT is what broke the Duskblade.

For those that don't know, Vampiric Touch does the following: 1d6 per 2 Caster Levels of damage (max 10d6, also, no NEGATIVE descriptor, so you can do it to constructs or undead), you get temporary hit points equal to the damage you inflicted, to a maximum of the target's current hp+10 (which is enough to kill the target). You keep the temp hp for upto an hour. FYI in PnP Temp HP don't stack, they 'overlap' (at least if they are the same "source"), so even if a Duskblade were to whirlwind the room with Channel Spell (VT) they would just benefit from the greatest Temp HP that comes in (so if they got 2, 5, 7, 7, and 8, they ignore the low ones).

So, yeah... When you have someone doing an extra 5d6 damage per hit at level 11 it is kind of tweaked. I would totally be a Duskblade and ONLY use VT to channel once I got it. I would probably even not use Prefix/Suffix's at the expense of the to hit bonus unless there were DR things to consider (alignment or what not).

But again, that is easily balanced by having a cooldown. And Duskblades wouldn't need the spell penetration they get (I think) because turbine implimented spells such that Damage Spells don't make Spell Penetration checks.

Like I said before, the Duskblade is broken when a player can do something every round that does untyped damage. You can't resist VT, you can just try to dodge it.

IN FACT! I think all Duskblades would use Cleave + Great Cleave + Precision to ensure their Channel Spells hit.

Gimpster
06-27-2007, 03:37 PM
Also, this is DDO, do you think that the Developers are gonna code it so that Dragon Disciple only adds X SP where X is the cost of your highest level spell that isn't being affected by Metamagic? They'ld probably impliment it as every even level increasing your spellcasting progression by 1. So Dragon Disciple 10 would give +5 to your spellcasting level
Ok, you're calling Dragon Disciple an overpowered class because you assume the devs will randomly decide to give it extra powers that are unprecedented in the PnP rules?

By that logic, I think Rogues will be overpowered at level 15 when they get Phantasmal Killer.



-- NO Level Adjustment while receiving the Half-Dragon template (normally +3).
Spending 10 levels to get a template worth 3 levels. Ok.

At best, you could generously say a Dragon Disciple is a balanced class, whose benefits generally make up for the penalties. But it's silly to call it overpowered.
If you'd stayed sorc, you'd have Finger of Death instead- much better.
If you'd stayed bard, you'd have awesome buffs and good enchantment spells.
If you'd stayed barb, you'd have full BAB and greater rage (or eventually mighty rage). That's more damaging already. Add in the DDO enhancements for Power Rage and Critical rage, and there's no comparison.

BluePaladin24
06-27-2007, 03:41 PM
I say just give me the tamplate. Let that be the reward for 3000 or 5000 favor (when it comes). If I could make a character with something like 1/2 dragon or 1/2 celestial, or (dare I dream) 1/2 fiend. (I want a 1/2 fiend Paladin, don't even pretend that you wouldn't want to at least try it) It could just require that you get enough xp to cover the template to level (If I could make a dwarf 1/2 dragon fighter, I would not mind hanging in the harbor till I hit lvl 5 to cover the template cost). I personally would not want to waist 10 class levels on a prestige class to get a template. If I were a caster I would much rather have the ability to cast Wish than have +8 strength. Dragon disciple is cool and all, it just does not fit my play style.

Now for the imfamous Duskblade. I think that a cool down would be perfect. It would balance it with the other classes quite well. Not only that but you would have something in the party that could both tank and cast. It would be great for those times when you can't find one or the other. (of couse it will make it even harder for my lowbe sorc to find a party).

The only thing that I don't like is the spell list. How could you make a class that can channes spells through it's weapon, and not give it shocking grasp. That is just wrong. It just seams incomplete to me.

JosephKell
06-27-2007, 04:34 PM
Ok, you're calling Dragon Disciple an overpowered class because you assume the devs will randomly decide to give it extra powers that are unprecedented in the PnP rules?Actually I was saying that the class is great as it is, and that no matter how it is changed to deal with how the "bonus" slots are handled, it will only be as good or better.

And it isn't about taking 10 levels to get a LA 3 template, it is getting that template without losing HD.

A standing Str of the mid 30's is pretty powerful.

It is a great template, granted its value is mitigated in DDO because your attacks go +X/+X/+X+5/+X+10/+X+15, so in DDO trading 4 BAB for 8 Strength is definitely bad.

Although I imagine a few Dwarf or WF strategist builds might greatly benefit from the extra strength for the purposes of sundering, tripping, stunning, etc.

-JK

Gimpster
06-28-2007, 04:15 AM
It is a great template, granted its value is mitigated in DDO because your attacks go +X/+X/+X+5/+X+10/+X+15, so in DDO trading 4 BAB for 8 Strength is definitely bad.
That's backwards.

The Dragon Disciple class would be BETTER in DDO, because the increasing attack bonuses makes success in combat less a matter of having a high attack bonus and more about how much damage you do on each hit. Getting +0,+5,+10 instead of -5,-10 on full attacks means the Dragon Disciple gets the damaging power of his +8 strength, but suffers only minimally from the -3 BAB.

(As long as his total BAB is enough to get 4 attacks, which it certainly will be with a level 14 character)

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-28-2007, 08:22 AM
Welcome to D&D 3.5 where pretty much everyone multiclasses and/or takes a prestige class.

I can't remember the last time I saw a 20-level base class character (or planned progression) in a D&D campaign.

Ummm theres plenty of pure tank multiclasses what does that have todo with making a NON CASTER multiclass tank obsolete?

Say 2 rogue 4 pal 8 fighter. that isnt a multiclass?

Please explain.

Swordalot
06-28-2007, 08:26 AM
Welcome to D&D 3.5 where pretty much everyone multiclasses and/or takes a prestige class.

I can't remember the last time I saw a 20-level base class character (or planned progression) in a D&D campaign. Ummm theres plenty of pure tank multiclasses what does that have todo with making a NON CASTER multiclass tank obsolete?

Say 2 rogue 4 pal 8 fighter. that isnt a multiclass?

Please explain.

First of all...
"pure tank multiclasses"?
Oxymoron.
Yes, a Rog 2/ Pal 4/ Ftr 8 is a multiclass. So what's your point? MT is trying to say that in 3.5 everyone multiclasses. You seem to question this with ideas that support MT. Can you see my boggle?

cdbd3rd
06-28-2007, 08:31 AM
Ditto I was like 'what's wrong with Mystic the way he is??????' :confused: :D



/Thirded, but my twisted sense of humor warped it a little further:

Implement MT? Using what implements, and would this be a poking implementation, or a slashing one?

:D

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-28-2007, 08:32 AM
First of all...
"pure tank multiclasses"?
Oxymoron.
Yes, a Rog 2/ Pal 4/ Ftr 8 is a multiclass. So what's your point? MT is trying to say that in 3.5 everyone multiclasses. You seem to question this with ideas that support MT. Can you see my boggle?

That is a pure tank build, where is the spell casting? Especially with the lvl selections that were picked. rogue 2 is for evasion pal 4 is for saves and fear immunity and 8 fighter for str enhances and feats. I dont see how you could be confused. I didnt say PURE CLASS, i said PURE TANK, theres a world of difference between the 2.
The point is about these and other MAGICAL TANK type prestige classes is that they totally make a NON CASTING, PURE TANK type OBSOLETE, which is EXACTLY what i said. Maybe reading comprehension should be your task for the day, instead of trying to sow the seeds of confusion in a statement that has none in it.

Swordalot
06-28-2007, 08:43 AM
That is a pure tank build, where is the spell casting? Especially with the lvl selections that were picked. rogue 2 is for evasion pal 4 is for saves and fear immunity and 8 fighter for str enhances and feats. I dont see how you could be confused. I didnt say PURE CLASS, i said PURE TANK, theres a world of difference between the 2.
The point is about these and other MAGICAL TANK type prestige classes is that they totally make a NON CASTING, PURE TANK type OBSOLETE, which is EXACTLY what i said. Maybe reading comprehension should be your task for the day, instead of trying to sow the seeds of confusion in a statement that has none in it.

Now, now, no need to get testy over a simple error. The phrase "pure tank multiclass" may have been a poor choice, however, for those who cannot mind-read. Perhaps Multiclass-non-caster would have been better for me. Anyway.
There will always be advantages to "pure tank multiclasses" over casters. Except maybe CoDzillas. They're pretty good. But, not, compare them to the Hulking Hurler build. Granted, it's not DDO-able, but it really shows the potential a "pure tank multiclass" has.
For those not familiar, the build is posted here http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=142565
It keeps getting more ridiculous as you read on. Totally worth the effort to build.

Vhlad
06-28-2007, 08:44 AM
I would love to see a bunch of prestige classes added:
(weapon master, blackguard (which means evil alignment), red dragon disciple, and so on).

Sadly, I don't think we'll see any of them in this game. My only hope is they give fighters/barbs something to look forward to from lvls 13-20. (i.e. adding more feats, more enhancments, to try and simulate certain prestige classes).

A fighter caps out early. Prestige classes make up for that. As it is now, I don't really have anything to look forward to from future lvl cap increases (which is why I'm working on a caster).

Cowdenicus
07-02-2007, 12:13 AM
Yeah it is getting to the point where I am tired of loot farming and all, and I need something new and great to get my intrest. It is my opinion (and only my opinion) that if Turbine doesn't do something to make a bunch of people reroll (like the entrance of 6-8 prestige classes would do) or add a serious influx of high end content soon, that this game will bleed a slow death.

Too many new games on the horizon for the status quo to continue.