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View Full Version : Two Weapon Figthing Nerfed and Underpowered Please Fix!



EinarMal
06-25-2007, 11:10 AM
There are three major problems with the implementation of two weapon fighting in this game. These three things differ from the PnP system that is pretty balanced in terms of one-handed, two handed, and two weapon fighting (most would argue two handed fighting is still better even in the PnP system). In DDO at level 14 you get 4 main hand attacks and 3 off hand attacks if you take TWF, ITWF, and GTWF.

1. Glancing Blows - These do not exist in PnP and give an added advantage to using a two handed weapon.

2. Incorrect ratio of extra attacks - This is mainly due to the extra attack that everyone gets beyond PnP rules at BAB 1.

(Credit Gimpster from another thread)
In one "full attack", a TWF/THF gets
Level 1: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 3/2 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 5: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 4/3 = 1.3x, Net ratio 0.66
Level 6: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 5/3 = 1.66x, Net ratio 0.83
Level 10: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 6/4 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 11: PnP 6/3 = 2x, DDO 7/4 = 1.75x, Net ratio 0.875

3. TWF animation is slower - The time taken to execute the TWF animation is longer than the one-handed, two-handed animation resulting in even fewer attacks over time.

(Credit Mad_Bombardier from another thread)
SWF/2HF = 19 attacks / 12 seconds.
TWF = 28 attacks / 12 seconds.

Difference ~ +50% for TWF with GTWF instead of +75%.

Conclusion:
The short answer is do not use TWF for a DPS build, go two handed unless you are a Ranger or Rogue.

Consider by PnP rules for every 100 attacks the two handed fighter makes the TWF w/ GTWF should get 200 attacks. That goes down to 175 because of the incorrect ratio. Now the REAL KICKER is the animation is slower so that gets futher reduced to 150!

This is a really broken implementation currently. Essentially you are getting at best improved two weapon fighting for taking the greater two weapon fighting feat due to the slower animation. On top of that the ratio is off making TWF a pretty gimped fighting style for DPS currently.

Proposed solution:

1. Speed up the animation so that all combat styles take the same amount of time.

2. Increase the off-hand strength bonus from 1/2 to full bonus to offset the incorrect ratio of attacks and glancing blows.

At least then it would be somewhat balanced to two handed fighting.

EightyFour
06-25-2007, 11:20 AM
He's done his research. All of this rings true.

It would be nice if a TWF could get some love, but it seems sense beta the people at DDO have been trying to ignore TWF. The first thing a TWF got was 4 green boxes, and now they get 3 more. That's about it from what I can remember.

I just feel that because TWF has been ignored for so long is that most of the people at Turbine don't want it in there game.

Shecky
06-25-2007, 11:34 AM
Consider by PnP rules for every 100 attacks the two handed fighter makes the TWF should get 200 attacks. That goes down to 175 because of the incorrect ratio. Now the REAL KICKER is the animation is slower so that gets futher reduced to 150!

In PnP, the TWF feat delivers ONE extra attack per round - the off-hand attack. ITWF and GTWF deliver 2 and 3, respectively. So if you consider a capped melee character in DDO with his standard 4 attacks, the most he can get is +75% (with GTWF) - with ITWF and TWF respectively, that's +50% and +25%.

Which TWF were you talking about?

Frodo_Lives
06-25-2007, 11:57 AM
TWF has always been a red headed step child to a high STR THF build. Even in PnP.

The only way TWF is better is when you have extra damage dice or a special type of damage to go along with the regular damage. TWF works great with a cursespewer/paralyzer combo or many other combos of special weapons. THF does a ton more damage at a fraction of the cost (feat and equipment wise.)

Gol
06-25-2007, 11:58 AM
In PnP, the TWF feat delivers ONE extra attack per round - the off-hand attack. ITWF and GTWF deliver 2 and 3, respectively. So if you consider a capped melee character in DDO with his standard 4 attacks, the most he can get is +75% (with GTWF) - with ITWF and TWF respectively, that's +50% and +25%.

Which TWF were you talking about?
I think he meant the entire chain. 3/6 in PnP, vs 4/7 in DDO. If you think of it as an "everybody gets 1 extra attack", it would be balanced except for the slower animation.

As for your blanket class analysis of who should TWF and who shouldn't, it's entirely gear dependent. My Ranger switches out between TWF and THF depending on what the enemy is (FE or anything I have dual banes for = TWF, high DR or AC = THF, etc).

Gol
06-25-2007, 11:59 AM
THF does a ton more damage at a fraction of the cost (feat and equipment wise.)It depends on the build as much as the equipment. My Ranger mows through giants faster than any Barbarian I've ever grouped with.

sigtrent
06-25-2007, 12:00 PM
The TWF animation is definately not slower that THF. Both lag a tiny bit from S&B, but not really by a great deal interms of the length of time it takes to kill a typical monster.

TWF has alwasy been the domain of non-str based characters. THF is awsome for STR based characters or those using power attack, same thing in D&D proper. TWF is a power house for dex characters or for those wtih sneak attack or similar added damage effects.

Also, don't under estimate the power of character based weapon enhancmenets. For example, have a +5 backstab weapon in one hand, and it affects all attacks, same goes for a number of other weapon enchantments. Ising this to your advantage is quite powerful. I will soon be using a +4 shocking burst puncturing rapier of deception in one hand, adn a +1 flaming rapier of backstabing 5 in the off hand. So the main hand is getting an additional +5 to hit and +8 to damage for sneak attacks giving it a total of +9/+13. Nothing to sneaze at.

My rogue is set up for TWF and THF but the TWF does way more damage for him on average.

Mad_Bombardier
06-25-2007, 12:05 PM
Which TWF were you talking about?Shecky, I raised the same question in another thread. Gimpster's numbers are talking specifically about levels 2-10. We equalize with PnP attacks ratio at level 11.

The TWF animation is definately not slower that THF.TWF attack chain animation is absolutely, positively slower than both SWF and 2HF. SWF/2HF takes 2.5 seconds for the whole animation. TWF takes 3 seconds for the whole animation.

Mad_Bombardier
06-25-2007, 12:10 PM
It depends on the build as much as the equipment. My Ranger mows through giants faster than any Barbarian I've ever grouped with.Gol, just because are able to cope, overcome, and/or accept the implementation errors does not mean it properly implemented.

Shecky
06-25-2007, 12:13 PM
Shecky, I raised the same question in another thread. Gimpster's numbers are talking specifically about levels 2-10. We equalize with PnP attacks ratio at level 11.

Oh, okay. Despite the fact that I do play a TWF fighter in PnP, he's sword-and-board for now (special circumstances). I may never take ITWF on him, either - it's just nice to have one extra attack (and Boots of Speed add another one). But he's always ready to go sword-and-board at need.

I'm just not all that familiar with TWF in DDO, so I can only refer to the PnP rules - going the whole TWF route almost seems a waste of feats to me, but I've seen people pull it off very well. In PnP, my dwarven fighter is specced with TWF, Weapon Focus: dwarven waraxe and dual dwarven waraxes (dual-wielding paired WF weapons partially mitigates the penalty for not using a light offhand weapon), and he's on the track of getting back to TWF, so I'll be curious to see how he performs when that time comes.

I've always thought that TWF melee builds in DDO were tough to pull off, but there are a lot of smart builders out there, and I'd imagine that assembling the right equipment set helps that a lot.

Gol
06-25-2007, 12:58 PM
Gol, just because are able to cope, overcome, and/or accept the implementation errors does not mean it properly implemented.
I was quoting something about a damage comparison between THF and TWF as currently implemented. Please don't take my comments out of context - I understand the problem perfectly well.

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 01:03 PM
As for your blanket class analysis of who should TWF and who shouldn't, it's entirely gear dependent. My Ranger switches out between TWF and THF depending on what the enemy is (FE or anything I have dual banes for = TWF, high DR or AC = THF, etc).

(This is what I said)
The short answer is do not use TWF for a DPS build, go two handed unless you are a Ranger or Rogue.

When I say DPS I am strictly talking about physical damage and in that respect unless you are getting extra damage applied via some class ability like Rogue or Ranger the feats are not worth it (Rangers get them for free so why not use them?)

I think that is pretty good advice for all fighters/barbs/bards or anyone else who is thinking of going two weapons instead of two handed for more DPS. All in all the current implementation of two weapon fighting makes it very hard to justfiy for anyone who doesn't get it for free or a Rogue with sneak attack. I suppose if you wanted to go the dual vorpral or wounding of puncturing route but that is not often the most efficient killing route either and you need uber weapons to pull it off. If you are interested in straight DPS the current implementation destroys even getting close to the two hander outside of class benefits.

GeneralDiomedes
06-25-2007, 01:04 PM
It depends on the build as much as the equipment. My Ranger mows through giants faster than any Barbarian I've ever grouped with.

Aye, but how about Monstrous Humanoids?

Cowdenicus
06-25-2007, 01:11 PM
when do we get superior and perfect two weapon fighting?

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 01:12 PM
In PnP, the TWF feat delivers ONE extra attack per round - the off-hand attack. ITWF and GTWF deliver 2 and 3, respectively. So if you consider a capped melee character in DDO with his standard 4 attacks, the most he can get is +75% (with GTWF) - with ITWF and TWF respectively, that's +50% and +25%.

Which TWF were you talking about?

Fixed description I was talking of course about TWF with GTWF feat.

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 01:14 PM
when do we get superior and perfect two weapon fighting?

Well superior is not a standard feat I think it is taken from a prestige class. Perfect two weapon fighting is an epic feat which would by its description give you the correct 2x ratio (ignoring the combat animation bug).

I have heard nothing official on if/when either will exist in DDO.

Shecky
06-25-2007, 01:14 PM
Fixed description I was talking of course about TWF with GTWF feat.

Okay. In that context, it should max out (in the game as it stands today, anyway) at +75%. Hmm.

Gol
06-25-2007, 01:15 PM
Aye, but how about Monstrous Humanoids?Oh, I totally understand a Ranger simply will not be DPS king against non-Favored Enemies.

Mad_Bombardier
06-25-2007, 01:16 PM
Added the equalizing point in yellow. It only stays equal IF Turbine does NOT add more attacks/TWF feats at higher levels. If they add more, then TWF is screwed again.
(Credit Gimpster from another thread)
In one "full attack", a TWF/THF gets
Level 1: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 3/2 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 5: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 4/3 = 1.3x, Net ratio 0.66
Level 6: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 5/3 = 1.66x, Net ratio 0.83
Level 10: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 6/4 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 11: PnP 6/3 = 2x, DDO 7/4 = 1.75x, Net ratio 0.875
Level 16: PnP 7/4 = 1.75x, DDO 7/4 = 1.75x, Net ratio 1.00

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 01:23 PM
Added the equalizing point in yellow. It only stays equal IF Turbine does NOT add more attacks/TWF feats at higher levels. If they add more, then TWF is screwed again.

So if they don't add an extra attack I agree the 2nd issue of the incorrect ratio will be ok 16+.

So now they just need to fix the inbalance due to glancing blows and the slower combat animation and I will be happy at level 16 :D

Seriously why not buff the strength bonus credited to the off hand? If they can't time the animations correctly and want to add in glancing blows that seems like the least they should do to make the style more viable.

joker965
06-25-2007, 01:28 PM
It is very clear that this is the solution. Why would this not be true already?

1. Speed up the animation so that all combat styles take the same amount of time.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 01:30 PM
In certain ways, TWF fighting has been buffed in DDO. I don't think these buffs entirely compensate for the various nerfs, but they should be kept in mind.

DDO's buffs to TWF
1. Power Attack with light weapons. In PnP, you cannot Power Attack with light weapons that are suitable for offhand use without an extra attack penalty. (Note that many people consider the PnP implementation of Power Attack flawed and too imbalanced towards larger weapons)

2. Free Two-Weapon Pounce. In PnP, you can only benefit from TWF if you're standing still and full-attacking, unless you invest in other feats (along the lines of Dire Charge). However, DDO allows a TWF user to attack with both weapons as you're running around.

3. Buffed Khopesh. DDO made the Khopesh a super-weapon, essentially allowing you to stack two Improved Crit feats. This change improves strength-based SWF and TWF damage, but doesn't help THF damage (which is TWF's direct competitor)

4. Reversed iterative attack penalties into bonuses. A PnP attack chain goes +12/+12,+8/+8,+3/+3, while a DDO attack chain is +12,+12/+12,+17/+17,+22/+22. That's +7.6 average PnP versus +16.3 DDO average. Obviously, the DDO attacks have a much higher attack bonus overall, meaning you are more likely to hit the enemy most of the time, and effects which reduce your attack bonus are less of a problem. Thus the -2 penalty to TWF hurts less, and the additional -2 penalty from an oversized offhand weapon also hurts less.

Evaluation of those buffs
To judge the effects of those changes, don't look only at TWF versus THF and SWF. It's more accurate to subdivide TWF and SWF into seprate strength-based and dexerity/finesse-based categories, because the TWF feats have dex requirements and synergies.

1. The Power Attack thing is more helpful to str-TWF than dex-TWF, because a character with high str can be assured to qualify for PA. A dex based rogue or ranger might not meet the 13 str requirement (particularly if halfling), and also would have less feats to spend on PA compared to a fighter. Also notice that because DDO's monsters have greatly boosted hitpoint totals, using PA is more important towards fighting effectively.

2. The pounce thing is quite a minor benefit overall. Arguably, it's something the PnP rules should have allowed.

3. Obviously, the khopesh benefit is more useful to str-TWF and str-SWF. THF style has a similar benefit in from the Sword of Shadows, which doesn't even need a feat. But DDO offers no finessable melee weapon as overpowered as the khopesh or SOS, so dex-TWF and dex-SWF gain nothing.

4. The increasing chain bonuses is useful to dex-TWF, but somewhat more useful to str-TWF because they might use a khopesh in both hands, giving the extra penalty for a non-light offhand. This bonus also helps THF fighters, because their Power Attack will hit consistently. (I would suggest that the penalty for a non-light offhand weapon be cumulative across the attack chain, pushing TWF fighters more towards the "proper" weapon selection and away from dual-rapier or dual-khopesh)

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 01:34 PM
It is very clear that this is the solution. Why would this not be true already?

1. Speed up the animation so that all combat styles take the same amount of time.

It definitely should be.

Even with that fix there is still the issue of glancing blows and the ratio of extra attacks not being correct.

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 01:40 PM
In certain ways, TWF fighting has been buffed in DDO. I don't think these buffs entirely compensate for the various nerfs, but they should be kept in mind.

DDO's buffs to TWF
1. Power Attack with light weapons. In PnP, you cannot Power Attack with light weapons that are suitable for offhand use without an extra attack penalty. (Note that many people consider the PnP implementation of Power Attack flawed and too imbalanced towards larger weapons)

2. Free Two-Weapon Pounce. In PnP, you can only benefit from TWF if you're standing still and full-attacking, unless you invest in other feats (along the lines of Dire Charge). However, DDO allows a TWF user to attack with both weapons as you're running around.

3. Buffed Khopesh. DDO made the Khopesh a super-weapon, essentially allowing you to stack two Improved Crit feats. This change improves strength-based SWF and TWF damage, but doesn't help THF damage (which is TWF's direct competitor)

4. Reversed iterative attack penalties into bonuses. A PnP attack chain goes +12/+12,+8/+8,+3/+3, while a DDO attack chain is +12,+12/+12,+17/+17,+22/+22. That's +7.6 average PnP versus +16.3 DDO average. Obviously, the DDO attacks have a much higher attack bonus overall, meaning you are more likely to hit the enemy most of the time, and effects which reduce your attack bonus are less of a problem. Thus the -2 penalty to TWF hurts less, and the additional -2 penalty from an oversized offhand weapon also hurts less.

Evaluation of those buffs
To judge the effects of those changes, don't look only at TWF versus THF and SWF. It's more accurate to subdivide TWF and SWF into seprate strength-based and dexerity/finesse-based categories, because the TWF feats have dex requirements and synergies.

1. The Power Attack thing is more helpful to str-TWF than dex-TWF, because a character with high str can be assured to qualify for PA. A dex based rogue or ranger might not meet the 13 str requirement (particularly if halfling), and also would have less feats to spend on PA compared to a fighter. Also notice that because DDO's monsters have greatly boosted hitpoint totals, using PA is more important towards fighting effectively.

2. The pounce thing is quite a minor benefit overall. Arguably, it's something the PnP rules should have allowed.

3. Obviously, the khopesh benefit is more useful to str-TWF and str-SWF. THF style has a similar benefit in from the Sword of Shadows, which doesn't even need a feat. But DDO offers no finessable melee weapon as overpowered as the khopesh or SOS, so dex-TWF and dex-SWF gain nothing.

4. The increasing chain bonuses is useful to dex-TWF, but somewhat more useful to str-TWF because they might use a khopesh in both hands, giving the extra penalty for a non-light offhand. This bonus also helps THF fighters, because their Power Attack will hit consistently. (I would suggest that the penalty for a non-light offhand weapon be cumulative across the attack chain, pushing TWF fighters more towards the "proper" weapon selection and away from dual-rapier or dual-khopesh)

These are all helpful, at the very least they should fix the animation so that the attack speed of the two styles are the same and you actually get the extra attacks that you should.

To me the iterative attack chain helps everyone so I don't see that as being that much in favor of either. The two handed guy can take enhancements to further increase PA that they might not take with the chain reversed.

Really the only one on your list that is really a benefit only to the TWF is the power attack on the off hand and the pouncing thing (mostly the power attack benefit). I am not sure of the relative value of that versus the correct attack ratio. That is really character dependent. I would be fine with them removing this and giving the correct number of attacks.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 01:40 PM
Added the equalizing point in yellow.
Ok, you're saying it is equal at level 16 on. That's inaccurate in a few ways.

1. As you mentioned, there is no level 16 in DDO. You are hypothesizing about how the game might work in the future, which means you're not talking about the game that people are playing now.

2. Levels 1-15 aren't chopped liver. It's not right to expect someone's combat style only to become correctly effective past BAB 16. (Especially if he's a rogue or otherwise a non-full-BAB build)

3. Most importantly, but also most subtly, the attacks which TWF does not gain in PnP are so inaccurate that they barely qualify as attacks.
What I mean is that in PnP, TWF and SWF is at a 2:1 attack ratio up until BAB 16, at which point both styles gain +1 attack, changing the ratio from 6:3 to 7:4.

However, simply adding up the number of attacks is limited way to measure the ratio. One should also consider the AB each attack comes at. Looking at it that way, a PnP character with BAB 15 has
SWF: 15, 10, 5
TWF: 13/13, 8/8, 3/3

Going up to BAB 16 and it becomes
SWF: 16, 11, 6, 1
TWF: 14/14, 9/9, 4/4, 0

Notice that the additional attacks at BAB 16 are at very low bonuses. In practice they will hardly ever hit except against extra-squishy monsters. In a lot of combats the final attack of the chain might as well not even be there, because you're not going to reliably hit a monster when down -15 from your first swing. If PnP had given TWF style an additional +0 attack at BAB 16, it would hardly have made a difference one way or the other.

However, in DDO we cannot say that. The last attacks in a chain are the ones with the highest bonus as the best chance to hit. Thus the question of gaining them or not becomes really important in judging total combat power. Personally, I can barely guess at all what DDO will do to attack chains at BAB 16.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 01:45 PM
To me the iterative attack chain helps everyone so I don't see that as being that much in favor of either. The two handed guy can take enhancements to further increase PA that they might not take with the chain reversed.
As I already explained, the iterative bonuses are more helpful to fighting styles which have a way to convert attack bonus into more damage. That may include Power Attacking, dual-khopesh, or dual-rapier, which means more of the benefits apply to THF and str-TWF than to dex-TWF.


The two handed guy can take enhancements to further increase PA that they might not take with the chain reversed.
Yes, he can... but the ability to take those enhancements and to benefit from those enhancements is not equal across the different fighting styles. THF warriors gain more from it (and have better access to the enhancements), str-TWF gain less, and dex-TWF gain even less than that.

Mad_Bombardier
06-25-2007, 01:48 PM
This change improves strength-based SWF and TWF damage, but doesn't help THF damage (which is TWF's direct competitor)Quick sidenote. Can you imagine if DDO implemented 2HF with one handed weapons for STR and PA bonus? 2H DDO Khopesh = Less base damage, but double crit range of a greataxe = yummy. (Until you loot the SoS, of course ;) )

Back on topic. I kind of like the idea of progressive penalties with non-light weapons. PnP has -2 penalty with each hand, so the basis is there. And with progressive to-hit bonuses, you almost need this kind of system for balance.

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 01:54 PM
As I already explained, the iterative bonuses are more helpful to fighting styles which have a way to convert attack bonus into more damage. That may include Power Attacking, dual-khopesh, or dual-rapier, which means more of the benefits apply to THF and str-TWF than to dex-TWF.


Yes, he can... but the ability to take those enhancements and to benefit from those enhancements is not equal across the different fighting styles. THF warriors gain more from it (and have better access to the enhancements), str-TWF gain less, and dex-TWF gain even less than that.

In terms of balancing the best you can do is balance overall styles of fighting. I don't think personally that the distinction your making is necessary for the discussion of whether TWF in general is implemented correctly.

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 01:56 PM
Back on topic. I kind of like the idea of progressive penalties with non-light weapons. PnP has -2 penalty with each hand, so the basis is there. And with progressive to-hit bonuses, you almost need this kind of system for balance.

To make TWF even more crappy:eek: I don't see why you need this additional penalty to an already underpowerd style.

GeneralDiomedes
06-25-2007, 01:57 PM
Oh, I totally understand a Ranger simply will not be DPS king against non-Favored Enemies.

It would be interesting to take a census of enemies by type for all quests and factor that into total DPS.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 02:04 PM
To make TWF even more crappy:eek: I don't see why you need this additional penalty to an already underpowerd style.
It's needed so that dex-TWF can be boosted to acceptable levels without also boosting str-TWF to be unreasonably overpowered. Increasing the attack speed in a way that is fair to someone holding rapier+shortsword would make players with khopesh+khopesh just sickly strong.

It's about maintaining some of the look of the D&D combat styles. In PnP, a dual-wielder is best with either rapier+shortsword, shortsword+shortsword, or kukri+kukri. You don't do rapier+rapier because the -2 attack penalty would be a serious problem. And it's good you don't do that, because holding two rapiers looks stupid.

Holding two khopeshes looks even stupider. The game's combat rules should not encourage reward players for walking around with dumb looking weapons.

Gol
06-25-2007, 02:07 PM
It would be interesting to take a census of enemies by type for all quests and factor that into total DPS.
And assign a 'frequency' to each one based on typical grinds. IE, Invaders and Tor would count a little more for the collectibles they contain.

Red-named count for 10x, Orange-named for 5x, etc :)

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 02:08 PM
It's needed so that dex-TWF can be boosted to acceptable levels without also boosting str-TWF to be unreasonably overpowered. Increasing the attack speed in a way that is fair to someone holding rapier+shortsword would make players with khopesh+khopesh just sickly strong.

It's about maintaining some of the look of the D&D combat styles. In PnP, a dual-wielder is best with either rapier+shortsword, shortsword+shortsword, or kukri+kukri. You don't do rapier+rapier because the -2 attack penalty would be a serious problem. And it's good you don't do that, because holding two rapiers looks stupid.

Holding two khopeshes looks even stupider. The game's combat rules should not encourage reward players for walking around with dumb looking weapons.

I would be fine with the extra penalty as long as I got the proper number of attacks. I have no problem with making it more prohibitive to use heavy weapons. My fear is they would do this prior to step A which would be fixing the attack rates!

I also think glancing blows though is a huge issue as well. I really do not like those feats in terms of game balance. That should be factored in as well when talking about reducing the power of TWF.

Mad_Bombardier
06-25-2007, 02:46 PM
Ok, you're saying it is equal at level 16 on. That's inaccurate in a few ways.

1. As you mentioned, there is no level 16 in DDO. You are hypothesizing about how the game might work in the future, which means you're not talking about the game that people are playing now.

2. Levels 1-15 aren't chopped liver. It's not right to expect someone's combat style only to become correctly effective past BAB 16. (Especially if he's a rogue or otherwise a non-full-BAB build).No, I'm trying to compare apples to apples. Because PnP and DDO uses different attacks/BAB progressions, PnP lvl 16 = DDO lvl 11. DDO achieves the ratio earlier.

Level 1-5: PnP 2/1 = 2.00x, Exists in DDO only as BAB+0: 1/1 = 1.00x, Net ratio 0.50
Level 6-10: PnP 4/2 = 2.00x, Level 1-4: DDO 3/2 = 1.50x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 11-15: PnP 6/3 = 2.00x, Level 6-9: DDO 5/3 = 1.66x, Net ratio 0.83
Level 16-19: PnP 7/4 = 1.75x, Level 11-14: DDO 7/4 = 1.75x, Net ratio 1.00

The ratio still lags behind, and experiences two very bad levels at 5 and 10 when you get a new attack but no TWF feat. Note that I left those out. There is no comparison for these levels because PnP attacks per BAB scale matches with feats granted/able to be taken. But, the ratio does equalize. And yes, it does suck that a TWF Rogue does not equalize until level 15 in DDO.


3. Most importantly, but also most subtly, the attacks which TWF does not gain in PnP are so inaccurate that they barely qualify as attacks.
What I mean is that in PnP, TWF and SWF is at a 2:1 attack ratio up until BAB 16, at which point both styles gain +1 attack, changing the ratio from 6:3 to 7:4.

However, simply adding up the number of attacks is limited way to measure the ratio. One should also consider the AB each attack comes at. Looking at it that way, a PnP character with BAB 15 has
SWF: 15, 10, 5
TWF: 13/13, 8/8, 3/3

Going up to BAB 16 and it becomes
SWF: 16, 11, 6, 1
TWF: 14/14, 9/9, 4/4, 0

Notice that the additional attacks at BAB 16 are at very low bonuses. In practice they will hardly ever hit except against extra-squishy monsters. In a lot of combats the final attack of the chain might as well not even be there, because you're not going to reliably hit a monster when down -15 from your first swing. If PnP had given TWF style an additional +0 attack at BAB 16, it would hardly have made a difference one way or the other.

However, in DDO we cannot say that. The last attacks in a chain are the ones with the highest bonus as the best chance to hit. Thus the question of gaining them or not becomes really important in judging total combat power. Personally, I can barely guess at all what DDO will do to attack chains at BAB 16.Perhaps the PnP single attack is more marginal because of the significant loss of to-hit, whereas the DDO first attack at least gets full to-hit. So, what you're saying is that the extra attack doesn't matter in PnP, essentially making it 6 attacks per round for TWF and 3 for SWF. And you are artificially capping the ratio at 2:1. So, given that DDO single attacks are viable, we end up with a lower "viable hits" ratio. That I can somewhat buy into, but at least its more viable hits than PnP.

I'm not trying to say that everything is honkey-dorey. But, the ratio is right for this brief snapshot in the game. I agree with all of the above about standardizing times for attack chains and readjusting DDO TWF feats to match levels when new attacks are granted (or putting new attacks back where they should be).

Dragonhyde
06-25-2007, 03:01 PM
Hmmm if twf is so bad then why does everyone seem to be making twf dex/str evasion meelees?

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 03:07 PM
Hmmm if twf is so bad then why does everyone seem to be making twf dex/str evasion meelees?

Well there isn't a total damage counter in the game so it is difficult to measure how combat styles measure up unless you really do the math and look at the numbers and do some testing. Most people don't do this. I don't think people realize that you don't get all the extra attacks that are advertized. Besides being popular has never been a problem with TWF.

Also, if you are talking about rogues they are one of the exceptions where it still could make sense because their DPS comes from sneak attacks which benefit from any extra attacks, even if it is less than their should be.

Ithrani
06-25-2007, 03:17 PM
3. Buffed Khopesh. DDO made the Khopesh a super-weapon, essentially allowing you to stack two Improved Crit feats. This change improves strength-based SWF and TWF damage, but doesn't help THF damage (which is TWF's direct competitor)

Can someone explain what Gimp means here. I am very confused as I use a Khopesh and I am not sure what he means. It is that it is a 19-20 x3 critical range normally and then taking improved crit makes it a 17-20 x3 so it makes it like a double improved crit feat? Or did you mean something else Gimp?

Besides that I do have a TWF STR based toon, uses a scimitar and kukri, right now I am taking advantage of the Power Attack but that can be changed easily should they "make it more in line with PnP" which I am always ok with. But even with out the Power Attack my DPS is just fine for me. Maybe he could do more damage with a two-hander but I just enjoy the TWF. I did not want to read all the mathematics behind DPS based on TWF vs. THF cause I don't like math much (nearly 8 years since I took a class) but I guess it is obvious that THF do more damage.

But I would like to test these theories out in game. It seems to me that left out of the calculations was critical ranged of the weapons being used.If the argument is about THF animation being faster then the TWF and TWF gets less attacks off then it really does not mean that the TWF DPS is lower then the THF. The best 2 crit range from a 2 hander is probably Carnifex with a 17-20 x3 and the Sword of Shadows with a 18-20 x3 (15-20 with improved crit) and awesome as it is the chances that you have a sword of shadows is fairly rare, it is a raid loot item which is far harder to get then Carnifex and Carnifex's DPS I don't think is a good in a full attack of a 14 level fighter as a scimitar and kukri of the full attack of a 14th level fighter with appropriate feats for their fighting styles on both fighters. But I don't know this for sure since like I said I am not a math wiz. nor have I done the in game testing.

BTW Khopesh wielded with both hands in PnP makes for a brutal weapon. To bad we can't here.

Dragonhyde
06-25-2007, 03:21 PM
while there are rogue/fighter twf builds most of the ones I see being made are ranger/fighter and some even splash pally. Lol and the biggest kill count leader I know is a twf ranger/fighter

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 03:24 PM
while there are rogue/fighter twf builds most of the ones I see being made are ranger/fighter and some even splash pally. Lol and the biggest kill count leader I know is a twf ranger/fighter

Well kill count is not a good stat, total damage done would be much better. I am sorry but just because you know a good player than can do well (probably has better weapons/gear or two vorprals or something) does not mean that the combat styles are properly balanced. The more often you attack the more likely you are to land the last blow and get the kill in DDO despite doing possibly less damage at least proporionally.

With equal gear and player skill the damage done between THF and TWF is not equal or even close. PnP is balanced such that with 2x attacks they end up about even, in DDO you are getting 1.5x attacks. It really is just math at that point and what you are providing is just anecdotal evidence.

Dragonhyde
06-25-2007, 03:35 PM
Actually no vorpals just rapiers...:)

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 03:37 PM
The more often you attack the more likely you are to land the last blow and get the kill in DDO despite doing possibly less damage at least proporionally.
No. The more proportionate damage you do, the more likely you are to land the killing blow, but the number of attacks you make to inflict that damage is nearly irrelevant.

If you had 2x the number of hits but each did 1/3rd damage, your kill count would be 2/3rds the other guy's.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 03:42 PM
Can someone explain what Gimp means here. I am very confused as I use a Khopesh and I am not sure what he means. It is that it is a 19-20 x3 critical range normally and then taking improved crit makes it a 17-20 x3 so it makes it like a double improved crit feat? Or did you mean something else Gimp?
A DDO fighter who learns the Khopesh feat and uses it instead of a longsword or battleaxe increases his damage by as much as if he had learned Improved Critical Slashing (and without needing the BAB 8 requirement for Imp Crit). He can further take Imp Crit later to stack the bonus.

That is, battleaxe with Improved Crit is 1d8 19-20/x3, identical to a khopesh without imp crit. It's a lot like you are stacking two imp crit feats on top of each other.


BTW Khopesh wielded with both hands in PnP makes for a brutal weapon. To bad we can't here.
No, it does not. A Khopesh with both hands in PnP is no better than a Longsword in both hands, except that you get trip attempts without AOO. Damage-wise, both do 1d8 19-20/x2, and both get the same 1.5x strength bonus.

Ithrani
06-25-2007, 03:52 PM
A DDO fighter who learns the Khopesh feat and uses it instead of a longsword or battleaxe increases his damage by as much as if he had learned Improved Critical Slashing (and without needing the BAB 8 requirement for Imp Crit). He can further take Imp Crit later to stack the bonus.

That is, battleaxe with Improved Crit is 1d8 19-20/x3, identical to a khopesh without imp crit. It's a lot like you are stacking two imp crit feats on top of each other.


No, it does not. A Khopesh with both hands in PnP is no better than a Longsword in both hands, except that you get trip attempts without AOO. Damage-wise, both do 1d8 19-20/x2, and both get the same 1.5x strength bonus.

Got the first part. So a Khopesh in PnP is not a 19-20 x3? I have not seen the weapon in the core books or the complete series. I am guessing it is in the Eberron books.

In Pnp

A_Sheep
06-25-2007, 03:59 PM
I'm suprised the only thing nobody has challenged is MB's counting of attacks.

TWF dwarves (unsure about other races) get exactly 22 full combat animations per minute while standing still. That's 88 main-hand attacks and 66 off-hand attacks.

THF dwarves (and male humans) get exactly 90 swings per minute on a Greataxe and a maul (that's 22.5 attack sequences).

THF dwarves (and male humans) get somewhere around slightly less than 85 swings per minute on a greatsword, a greatclub or a Falchion).

I did this two ways: I fraps-ed each of the specimens in actual combat and counted attacks in the combat log. I also stood still in the marketplace and counted swings. The first method was far from perfect, because there's no monster that takes 1 minute to kill and almost nothing stands still now, so I could only get little bursts of between 10 and 20 seconds when the TWFighter was standing still and attacking something (sometimes multiple targets). The Fraps study supported the numbers I have above, which were counted in the counting swings test.

What I didn't count (and I wish I had) was the number of swings per minute someone with two weapons gets while moving. THF gets same number of swings (confirmed that), but I don't know with TWF.

I would love to see the animations fixed, but I don't think there's an advantage to THF at the moment in terms of attack animations.

However, I would like to mention that 2 attacks while moving is huge! Especially since you can move, then stop to take your 2nd, 3rd, and 4th attack sequences, then move again. You basically get 8 attacks if you're twitch enough (although that first attack is gonna be at a -4 for moving :-().

I thought Glancing blows were a bone to THF when they were getting their butts kicked because in DDO the cost of two +4 Holy weapons is only negligibly higher than a 2-handed +4 Holy Weapon, that was until I tried soemone with Greater THF and saw that it's really really broken.

Pellegro
06-25-2007, 04:09 PM
my purely anecdotal observation is that twf is not gimped by any stretch ....

those little dual wielding dwarves runnign around kick serious tail!

Mad_Bombardier
06-25-2007, 04:18 PM
I'm suprised the only thing nobody has challenged is MB's counting of attacks.

TWF dwarves (unsure about other races) get exactly 22 full combat animations per minute while standing still. That's 88 main-hand attacks and 66 off-hand attacks.Weird, I've only ever gotten 20 TWF attack chains in 1 minute. Is 22/min with BAB+14? I tested originally at BAB+10 (no GrTWF) and then again at BAB+11 and got similar results for animation time. So, I assumed the major attack speed increases came from extra attacks in the chain. But, perhaps the attack rate increase is incremental with each BAB.

My SWF numbers varied between 90-95 attacks per minute, with 95 being the most recent, so I was using that. And I was quoting another's numbers for 2HF being 95 for Greataxe and 90 for 'other 2H'. Essentially the same range as SWF. If 2HF is indeed slower, all I can say is that I still recommend all combat styles to be on the same time for attack animation.

A_Sheep
06-25-2007, 04:27 PM
Weird, I've only ever gotten 20 TWF attack chains in 1 minute. Is 22/min with BAB+14? I tested originally at BAB+10 (no GrTWF) and then again at BAB+11 and got similar results for animation time. So, I assumed the major attack speed increases came from extra attacks in the chain. But, perhaps the attack rate increase is incremental with each BAB.

My SWF numbers varied between 90-95 attacks per minute, with 95 being the most recent, so I was using that. And I was quoting another's numbers for 2HF being 95 for Greataxe and 90 for 'other 2H'. Essentially the same range as SWF. If 2HF is indeed slower, all I can say is that I still recommend all combat styles to be on the same time for attack animation.

All my tests were done at BAB +14 and after mod 4.1 (and I emphasize the standing still). I only did one single weapon fighting count using a dwarven axe on a dwarf and got 90 attacks, but wasn't really concerned with that. I experience very little lag in general and got multiple tests to agree.

It would be crazy if it slowly scaled up as BAB increased. I know that's what ranged attacks do, but maybe they implemented that for melee as well? I would like it if the attacks all had the same modifier, but the attack rate slowly increased as BAB increased. That would be better than the incremental increases right now.

And I totally agree, all attacking styles really ought to be the same rate. We shouldn't have to stand in the market and count our swings :-P.

Yndrofian
06-25-2007, 04:29 PM
The short answer is do not use TWF for a DPS build,

i wouldnt mind seeing twf given some love
but ive got a twf dwarven fighter
and his dps is pretty decent, to be humble
and not being humble, he out dps' most the figher-types i group with
im very happy with him and he does quite well

**edit

The game's combat rules should not encourage reward players for walking around with dumb looking weapons.
QFT!!!!!!!!!!!

Netminder69
06-25-2007, 04:31 PM
Consider by PnP rules for every 100 attacks the two handed fighter makes the TWF w/ GTWF should get 200 attacks. That goes down to 175 because of the incorrect ratio. Now the REAL KICKER is the animation is slower so that gets futher reduced to 150!

Pardon my ignorance, but I have seen this argument made several times already about attack animations being slower. Is this taking into account that multiple attacks are occuring on one aimation swing in TWF? I have a TWF, currently 6th level. He does the slash, slash, spin maneuver. And on a single swing of a weapon I see more than one set of damage numbers, usually during the spin, but i have seen multiple dmaages ont he primary and off-hand swings as well.

i could see that would be hard to double check since you aren't necessarily goign to hit every single time. It's something to consider though.

GeneralDiomedes
06-25-2007, 04:46 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but I have seen this argument made several times already about attack animations being slower. Is this taking into account that multiple attacks are occuring on one aimation swing in TWF? I have a TWF, currently 6th level. He does the slash, slash, spin maneuver. And on a single swing of a weapon I see more than one set of damage numbers, usually during the spin, but i have seen multiple dmaages ont he primary and off-hand swings as well.

i could see that would be hard to double check since you aren't necessarily goign to hit every single time. It's something to consider though.

The most accurate way would be to count the lines in your combat log.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 04:57 PM
Pardon my ignorance, but I have seen this argument made several times already about attack animations being slower. Is this taking into account that multiple attacks are occuring on one aimation swing in TWF?
Yes, that is included. A TWF gets 7 attacks in his full animation, while a SWF gets 4. But the SWF has already started his animation a second time while the TWF is still making his last two attacks.

At BAB 11:
A SWF animation is slash left (+11), slash right (+11), stab (+16), twirl (+21).
A TWF animation is slash left (+9), slash right (+9/+9), spin (+14/+14), wave (+19/+19)
A THF animation is slash left (+11), slash right (+11), chop down (+16), chop up (+21).

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 05:01 PM
Got the first part. So a Khopesh in PnP is not a 19-20 x3? I have not seen the weapon in the core books or the complete series. I am guessing it is in the Eberron books.
The khopesh is in the core D&D books, and is not something unique to Eberron, or really used much on Eberron. The reason you probably don't remember the khopesh is because nobody likes it in PnP, as spending a feat to learn a weapon that's no stronger than a longsword isn't attractive to anyone.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 05:02 PM
I did this two ways: I fraps-ed each of the specimens in actual combat and counted attacks in the combat log. I also stood still in the marketplace and counted swings. The first method was far from perfect, because there's no monster that takes 1 minute to kill and almost nothing stands still now
A scrag troll sits perfectly still after your first 10 hits, and survives well more than a minute to normal weapons. In fact, if you auto-attack and walk away you can come back tommorrow and find your weapons worn down to nubs and the scrag still laying there. Those monsters are excellent for counting the speed and range of various weapons.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 05:09 PM
In certain ways, TWF fighting has been buffed in DDO. I don't think these buffs entirely compensate for the various nerfs, but they should be kept in mind.

There are more benefits DDO gave to TWF style. These are minor or subtle things, but we may as well be complete about it:
5. Certain weapon bonuses apply to both main and offhand (Seeker, Backstabbing, Vertigo, Weighted)

6. Melee special attacks can happen at double rate (Stunning Blow, Trip, Sunder, and Smite Evil)

7. The frequency with which full attacks can happen. Basically, in PnP combats you often don't get to make many full attacks- you charge around, move in or out, and only have a few rounds left before it's over. But in DDO monster hitpoints are higher, meaning fights take longer, so you have a bigger opportunity to make repeated full attack chains.

EinarMal
06-25-2007, 06:34 PM
No. The more proportionate damage you do, the more likely you are to land the killing blow, but the number of attacks you make to inflict that damage is nearly irrelevant.

If you had 2x the number of hits but each did 1/3rd damage, your kill count would be 2/3rds the other guy's.

Ok I thought about this a bit more and I am not sure if it would make a difference...do the free double swings make a difference? It might make a slight difference I am not sure.

Ithrani
06-25-2007, 06:41 PM
The khopesh is in the core D&D books, and is not something unique to Eberron, or really used much on Eberron. The reason you probably don't remember the khopesh is because nobody likes it in PnP, as spending a feat to learn a weapon that's no stronger than a longsword isn't attractive to anyone.

No it is not in the PHB, nor is it in the SRD from what I have seen it is only mentioned in the weapons group. I will double check the complete series and the DMG for bronze age campaigns, if you mean it is in the old 2nd ed and 1st ed then you are more then likely to be correct. I believe it is in the 1st ed. unearthed arcana which I can double check later.

A_Sheep
06-25-2007, 08:17 PM
I'm mostly jealous that my Bard (who can't get GTWF till lvl 15) doesn't get the 2 attacks while moving.

EightyFour
06-25-2007, 09:32 PM
Yes, that is included. A TWF gets 7 attacks in his full animation, while a SWF gets 4. But the SWF has already started his animation a second time while the TWF is still making his last two attacks.

At BAB 11:
A SWF animation is slash left (+11), slash right (+11), stab (+16), twirl (+21).
A TWF animation is slash left (+9), slash right (+9/+9), spin (+14/+14), wave (+19/+19)
A THF animation is slash left (+11), slash right (+11), chop down (+16), chop up (+21).

I'll back this up, done tests in the PvP areas with people that have gone THF, there animation is done sooner than a TWF animation, so the TWF extra attacks come in slower than the THF. And it's more than a little off.

QuantumFX
06-26-2007, 01:39 AM
Actually no vorpals just rapiers...:)

His normal weapons are dual Shocking Burst Rapiers of Puncturing. And he wears so much raid gear that it's almost criminal...

No, I'm not him.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 06:47 AM
His normal weapons are dual Shocking Burst Rapiers of Puncturing. And he wears so much raid gear that it's almost criminal...

No, I'm not him.

I figured as much...no one is denying if you are a great player with great gear you can make TWF work you do get *some* extra attacks.

I just think for the rest of us, and for the entire trip to the cap not just at BAB 14 it would be nice if TWF were more balanced.

The ratio of extra attacks is off compared to PnP by level there is no disputing that. Glancing blows does add some damage beyond PnP there is also no disputing that. The animation seems slower to most although not everyone agrees on that part. Although Gimpster pointed out some subtle benefits to TWF, there are also many subtle benefits to the other styles as well in DDO. All in all I still think the style needs a buff to compensate and make it more comparable to two handed fighting. They should be fairly balanced with one another and I do not believe that they are.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 06:50 AM
I'll back this up, done tests in the PvP areas with people that have gone THF, there animation is done sooner than a TWF animation, so the TWF extra attacks come in slower than the THF. And it's more than a little off.

I do not have a full BAB TWF with GTWF (my main is a TWF Bard). Is anyone game to do some testing in the PvP arena to provide more hard data on this?

The simplest way would probably be to grab some normal weapons and a Ranger and swing one handed, two handed, and two weapon in the PvP areana and take a look at the number of swings (combat rolls) that you get in one minute with each of the styles. With a cleric to heal and a Barbarian or something to stand there and take a beating.

bandyman1
06-26-2007, 07:40 AM
No it is not in the PHB, nor is it in the SRD from what I have seen it is only mentioned in the weapons group. I will double check the complete series and the DMG for bronze age campaigns, if you mean it is in the old 2nd ed and 1st ed then you are more then likely to be correct. I believe it is in the 1st ed. unearthed arcana which I can double check later.

You are right. It isn't listed in the 3rd edition core rulebooks. I have seen the 3rd edition stats, but I honestly can't remember the sourse. Gimpster is right, however, in that it is stat-wise identical to a longsword in PnP, but it is an exotic weapon, and it gives a trip bonus. DDO decided to give the khopesh it's x3 crit multiplier on thier own.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 08:17 AM
The only way TWF is better is when you have extra damage dice or a special type of damage to go along with the regular damage.

This is generally true in PnP as well. TWF doesn't make sense unless you can start adding "bonus dice" whether they come from sneak attack, flaming effects, etc.

A good TWF must look for ways to find the extras, and maximize them.


I suppose if you wanted to go the dual vorpral or wounding of puncturing route but that is not often the most efficient killing route either and you need uber weapons to pull it off. If you are interested in straight DPS the current implementation destroys even getting close to the two hander outside of class benefits.

I promise you that a TWF combo of Weighted 10 in one hand, Seeker 10 pick in the other will outperform a THF or S&B fighter with a vorpal.

With the Stunning Blow feat in addition, it is a lot more selective when you need a particular creature dead. Take the straight up 5% "free" stuns when you can get them (analogous to the vorpal's natural 20 effect), and fire the Stunning Blow (late in the attack chain if you know what you're doing) against a creature that you absolutely want dead.

Weighted 10 hammers and Seeker 10 picks aren't "uber" but there's a good chance they will get harder to find as soon as more TWF builds get the memo.


Well kill count is not a good stat, total damage done would be much better.

I lose a lot of kills to folks who prey on my stunned opponents. (Eh, there's plenty to go around.)

But generally speaking, I'm doing over 100 damage per crit, per two-weapon combo (seeker pick and weighted hammer), which I guess is over 300 damage per full attack animation cycle.


There are more benefits DDO gave to TWF style. These are minor or subtle things, but we may as well be complete about it:

5. Certain weapon bonuses apply to both main and offhand (Seeker, Backstabbing, Vertigo, Weighted)

6. Melee special attacks can happen at double rate (Stunning Blow, Trip, Sunder, and Smite Evil)

Ahh, there you go.


I figured as much...no one is denying if you are a great player with great gear you can make TWF work you do get *some* extra attacks.

I'm not a great player and my gear is notoriously bad (raids=0). I will be happy to deny that it takes a great player and great gear to make it work. I am an average player with average gear, but the build performs above average.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 08:57 AM
I'm not a great player and my gear is notoriously bad (raids=0). I will be happy to deny that it takes a great player and great gear to make it work. I am an average player with average gear, but the build performs above average.

With the same level of gear if you went two handed you would do better overall. Sorry but all of these arguements have nothing to do with the facts.

1. YOU DO NOT GET THE CORRECT RATIO OF EXTRA ATTACKS
2. GLANCING BLOWS FURTHER SEPERATES THE COMBAT STYLES
3. ANIMATION LENGTH MAY OR MAY NOT BE LONGER FOR TWF (I BELIEVE IT IS BUT NEED MORE TESTING)

Whether or not is possible to fight TWF and do ok is irrelevant to whether or not the balance that exists in PnP is true in DDO.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 09:15 AM
This is generally true in PnP as well. TWF doesn't make sense unless you can start adding "bonus dice" whether they come from sneak attack, flaming effects, etc.

A good TWF must look for ways to find the extras, and maximize them.



I promise you that a TWF combo of Weighted 10 in one hand, Seeker 10 pick in the other will outperform a THF or S&B fighter with a vorpal.

With the Stunning Blow feat in addition, it is a lot more selective when you need a particular creature dead. Take the straight up 5% "free" stuns when you can get them (analogous to the vorpal's natural 20 effect), and fire the Stunning Blow (late in the attack chain if you know what you're doing) against a creature that you absolutely want dead.

Weighted 10 hammers and Seeker 10 picks aren't "uber" but there's a good chance they will get harder to find as soon as more TWF builds get the memo.



I lose a lot of kills to folks who prey on my stunned opponents. (Eh, there's plenty to go around.)

But generally speaking, I'm doing over 100 damage per crit, per two-weapon combo (seeker pick and weighted hammer), which I guess is over 300 damage per full attack animation cycle.



Ahh, there you go.



I'm not a great player and my gear is notoriously bad (raids=0). I will be happy to deny that it takes a great player and great gear to make it work. I am an average player with average gear, but the build performs above average.

I understand that in PnP you need extra effects damage to compete with a two hander. In DDO it is even worse and that is my point. Sure you can find particular weapon combinations that let you compete but you shouldn't have to to stay pretty close.

I just would like the same balance in PnP in terms of number of attacks. That to me balances out the penalties and how it was intended to work. Can you do it currently in DDO, sure, does it work ok, yes. Does it work as well as it should? I don't think so.

Something is balanced if both styles are reasonably close through all levels of advancement not just at 14 with GTWF and two particular weapons. Something is balanced if for most combinations of weapons and levels when you compare them with similiar weapons they are approximately even. If you calculate a PnP comparison this is true but not in DDO in most cases.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 09:29 AM
I understand that in PnP you need extra effects damage to compete with a two hander. In DDO it is even worse and that is my point. Sure you can find particular weapon combinations that let you compete but you shouldn't have to to stay pretty close.

It's perfectly analogous.

In PnP you need gear, class abilities, or feats to make TWF work.

The same is true in DDO.


I just would like the same balance in PnP in terms of number of attacks. That to me balances out the penalties and how it was intended to work.

That is not analogous. You can't compare number of attacks in PnP vs. DDO straight up and expect to arrive at any meaningful conclusion regarding the build's effectiveness.

The single greatest divergence between PnP and DDO is the combat system.

How long have you been playing this game?

There is a vast difference between turn-based, grid-based combat and the active combat system of DDO.

Which, by the way, I would not trade for anything. It is what makes the game FUN and PLAYABLE and, in its admittedly limited way, allows it to compete in the field of MMOs.


Can you do it currently in DDO, sure, does it work ok, yes.

Well then that would seem to settle it.


Does it work as well as it should? I don't think so.

Because you're fixated on comparing the number of attacks without giving any serious thought to compensatory strategies.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 09:33 AM
Whether or not is possible to fight TWF and do ok is irrelevant to whether or not the balance that exists in PnP is true in DDO.

You have it exactly backwards.

Whether or not the ratio of attacks that exist in PnP correlates directly to DDO is irrelevant with respect to the effectiveness of TWF as implemented in DDO.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 09:41 AM
You have it exactly backwards.

Whether or not the ratio of attacks that exist in PnP correlates directly to DDO is irrelevant with respect to the effectiveness of TWF as implemented in DDO.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The penalties that TWF gets are derived from PnP. If you take the feats and use a light off-hand weapon you get -2 to hit and you get 1/2 bonus on the off-hand for your strength score.

Those penalties were derived by assuming you are making 2x the number of attacks when in DDO you are at best making 1.75x the number of attacks. Real time combat has NOTHING to do with it. All that matters is swings over time or per minute and unless you constantly move with GTWF you cannot reach 2x the number of swings.

You are fixated with particular weapons and strategy to make it even what happens when turbine decides that seeker and weighted do not apply to both hands? That is not balance.

Ithrani
06-26-2007, 09:56 AM
You are right. It isn't listed in the 3rd edition core rulebooks. I have seen the 3rd edition stats, but I honestly can't remember the sourse. Gimpster is right, however, in that it is stat-wise identical to a longsword in PnP, but it is an exotic weapon, and it gives a trip bonus. DDO decided to give the khopesh it's x3 crit multiplier on thier own.

In PnP you can only trip as an unarmed attack, so of course this provokes attacks of opportunity.The unarmed attack in PnP is really your feet doing the work as you do not have to be truly unarmed ie. nothing in your hand. Turbine decided to make trip possible with the weapon your holding. Since Turbine did this the Khopesh allowing trip attempts with the weapon itself like the Halberd does was moot, making it a x3 critical is not the right thing to do though. I personally think they should have made it where wielding a Khopesh gives you a +2 to trip attempts that can stack with Vertigo. That would have made more sense, but Turbine loves to break the rules and they love Munckinism.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 10:03 AM
You are fixated with particular weapons and strategy to make it even what happens when turbine decides that seeker and weighted do not apply to both hands? That is not balance.

God. I'm... just stunned. Let me see if I can unravel your twisted grammar to make some sense of you.

"You are fixated on particular weapons and strategy to make it even..."

Err... yes? I hazard to say that the Developers, as well, are fixated on particular weapons and strategies to make it even.

"...what happens if turbine decides that seeker and weighted do not apply to both hands?"

If Turbine decides to change seeker and weighted (and others), then it won't be balanced anymore.

But Turbine has already decided that some weapon effects DO apply to your entire weapon set. Given that the only circumstance in which this can possibly have any impact is with TWF-- well, why do you suppose they made that decision?

The status quo is that there are many effects that apply to BOTH weapons when they are equipped. I can't imagine why you would want to overlook that in ANY discussion about the play balance of TWF in DDO.

Is this a discussion of the play balance of TWF in DDO or not?

If you're not basing your "expert analysis" on the existing play balance of TWF in DDO-- which has more dissimilarities than similarities to PnP, as is true of the ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM-- well, then you might as well be arguing that TWF needs changing because the sky is blue.

A_Sheep
06-26-2007, 10:05 AM
1. YOU DO NOT GET THE CORRECT RATIO OF EXTRA ATTACKS
2. GLANCING BLOWS FURTHER SEPERATES THE COMBAT STYLES
3. ANIMATION LENGTH MAY OR MAY NOT BE LONGER FOR TWF (I BELIEVE IT IS BUT NEED MORE TESTING)


You seem to be glossing over the fact that YOU GET TWO ATTACKS WHILE MOVING. Which you don't in Pencil and Paper. This is a HUGE difference.

You can also translate this into the extra attack if you start motion during the final combat animation then stop after your first attack again.

You will take the -4 to hit on that first attack, but you will get 2 attacks.

So, you have the potential to be even 'better' than PnP, because you could have the extra attack while moving and while standing still.

=====

Alright, down to science:
I tested with my Drow Male Bard (BAB 10, Improved TWF, Rapier/Shortsword) and I got 94 attack animations in 1 minute! That's 23.5 Attack Rounds! I was amazed. I switched to a maul on the same character and got 92 swings on a maul!! I switched to a rapier and shield and got 94 swings!!!!

Drow get 6 more TWF attacks per minute than Dwarves do :O?!??? I'll test dwarves again, but this is insane! Why couldn't Turbine have made all the different styles on all the different races on the different sexes the same speeeeedDDD!!! :(????

(Note: I did all tests in the Desert instance with Good Hope on and started pounding on my mouse attack key the moment I saw an even minute and counting swings then stopping the moment I see the next even minute. (so these tests are done with DDO buff time (which may or may not be the same as real time) I did all tests 3 times and they were all within 1 attack animation of each other (I attribute this to reaction time when I see the even minute and reaction time stopping when I see the next even minute).)

I really want to start a thread for swings per minute. Going to do that. No discussion of anything except rate of swinging there.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:05 AM
God. I'm... just stunned. Let me see if I can unravel your twisted grammar to make some sense of you.

"You are fixated on particular weapons and strategy to make it even..."

Err... yes? I hazard to say that the Developers, as well, are fixated on particular weapons and strategies to make it even.

"...what happens if turbine decides that seeker and weighted do not apply to both hands?"

If Turbine decides to change seeker and weighted (and others), then it won't be balanced anymore.

But Turbine has already decided that some weapon effects DO apply to your entire weapon set. Given that the only circumstance in which this can possibly have any impact is with TWF-- well, why do you suppose they made that decision?

The status quo is that there are many effects that apply to BOTH weapons when they are equipped. I can't imagine why you would want to overlook that in ANY discussion about the play balance of TWF in DDO.

Is this a discussion of the play balance of TWF in DDO or not?

If you're not basing your "expert analysis" on the existing play balance of TWF in DDO-- which has more dissimilarities than similarities to PnP, as is true of the ENTIRE COMBAT SYSTEM-- well, then you might as well be arguing that TWF needs changing because the sky is blue.

There is no reason why TWF should not get 2x the number attacks as it does in PnP over time end of story. You get the same penalties you should have the same benefit.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:07 AM
You seem to be glossing over the fact that YOU GET TWO ATTACKS WHILE MOVING. Which you don't in Pencil and Paper. This is a HUGE difference.

You can also translate this into the extra attack if you start motion during the final combat animation then stop after your first attack again.

You will take the -4 to hit on that first attack, but you will get 2 attacks.

So, you have the potential to be even 'better' than PnP, because you could have the extra attack while moving and while standing still.



You can do this and you would be even with the number of attacks but give up iterative attack bonus and take an additional -4 to hit. Manipulating the combat animations is also maybe possible if you are a good twitch gamer. I don't really see this as being better than PnP but it is equal. If you are not hitting on your first swing with a roll of 2 this might not be a good idea.

Ithrani
06-26-2007, 10:08 AM
You will take the -4 to hit on that first attack

Only if you don't have spring attack, and why wouldn't you? :D

I know not everyone builds their toons the same and two feats that do very little for 1 is not a huge bargain, but spring attack is very much worth it, and for rogue/fighters dodge and mobility, thought they could be better, do help out.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:09 AM
Alright, down to science:
I tested with my Drow Male Bard (BAB 10, Improved TWF, Rapier/Shortsword) and I got 94 attack animations in 1 minute! That's 23.5 Attack Rounds! I was amazed. I switched to a maul on the same character and got 92 swings on a maul!! I switched to a rapier and shield and got 94 swings!!!!

Drow get 6 more TWF attacks per minute than Dwarves do :O?!??? I'll test dwarves again, but this is insane! Why couldn't Turbine have made all the different styles on all the different races on the different sexes the same speeeeedDDD!!! :(????

(Note: I did all tests in the Desert instance with Good Hope on and started pounding on my mouse attack key the moment I saw an even minute and counting swings then stopping the moment I see the next even minute. (so these tests are done with DDO buff time (which may or may not be the same as real time) I did all tests 3 times and they were all within 1 attack animation of each other (I attribute this to reaction time when I see the even minute and reaction time stopping when I see the next even minute).)

I really want to start a thread for swings per minute. Going to do that. No discussion of anything except rate of swinging there.

I have no idea why this would be and obviously this should not happen. Every style and race should take the same amount of time.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:10 AM
Only if you don't have spring attack, and why wouldn't you? :D

I know not everyone builds their toons the same and two feats that do very little for 1 is not a huge bargain, but spring attack is very much worth it, and for rogue/fighters dodge and mobility, thought they could be better, do help out.

It is just really hard to fit in that many feats in addition to TWF feats. So essentially you have to take 6 feats to get the correct number of extra attacks without an additional penalty when TWF.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 10:11 AM
There is no reason why TWF should not get 2x the number attacks as it does in PnP over time end of story. You get the same penalties you should have the same benefit.

It's not exactly a model of rational thought, but at least we have your final word on the subject.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:12 AM
It's not exactly a model of rational thought, but at least we have your final word on the subject.

Then you tell me what additional benefit calls for the extra penalty?

Shecky
06-26-2007, 10:21 AM
There is no reason why TWF should not get 2x the number attacks as it does in PnP over time end of story.

Because the off-hand attacks are based ENTIRELY on the number of attacks you have with your main hand, and those are NOT universally double their number from PnP. A little thinking-through does wonders.


You get the same penalties you should have the same benefit.

Elucidate, please.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:25 AM
Because the off-hand attacks are based ENTIRELY on the number of attacks you have with your main hand, and those are NOT universally double their number from PnP. A little thinking-through does wonders.



Elucidate, please.

The penalties of 1/2 strength on off-hand (sort of inverse of 2 go figure) are based off 2x the number of swings. The extra free attack DDO made up throws off the balance. Maybe you should think it through.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 10:29 AM
Then you tell me what additional benefit calls for the extra penalty?

I've told you 3 or 4 times already:

Being able to get the benefit of TWO strategic combat modifiers on your attack sequence.

Weighted, Seeker, Backstabbing, ALL OF THESE in combination with each other, or in combination with Sneak Attack damage, or with weapons chosen specifically to bypass DR, or with other exclusive effects like Destruction, or (if you are so lucky, which I am not...) with the big five effects: Vorpal, Banishing, Paralyzing, Disruption, and Smiting.

Do you take the time to think on a little deeper strategic level?

Do you realize that with a +5 weapon in your main hand and a +5 backstabbing weapon in your off hand, you can completely negate the -2 TWF penalty of the main weapon with +3 to spare? Your main weapon becomes a +8 weapon. All other things being equal, the TWF just shot +3 over the best BAB the single weapon fighter can muster.

Think that might ever make a difference?

I can stun a high DR creature-- a rakshasa lord, for example-- by wielding my Weighted +10 Hammer in one hand and an Anarchic Pick of Pure Good in my other hand. You cannot do this as effectively with ONE WEAPON as you can with TWO WEAPONS.

TWF CAN APPLY TWICE AS MANY STRATEGIC COMBAT EFFECTS AS A SINGLE WEAPON FIGHTER.

And if you don't understand how that is a huge balancing factor in favor of TWF you're beyond rational persuasion.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 10:41 AM
I've told you 3 or 4 times already:

Being able to get the benefit of TWO strategic combat modifiers on your attack sequence.

Weighted, Seeker, Backstabbing, ALL OF THESE in combination with each other, or in combination with Sneak Attack damage, or with weapons chosen specifically to bypass DR, or with other exclusive effects like Destruction, or (if you are so lucky, which I am not...) with the big five effects: Vorpal, Banishing, Paralyzing, Disruption, and Smiting.

Do you take the time to think on a little deeper strategic level?

Do you realize that with a +5 weapon in your main hand and a +5 backstabbing weapon in your off hand, you can completely negate the -2 TWF penalty of the main weapon with +3 to spare? Your main weapon becomes a +8 weapon. All other things being equal, the TWF just shot +3 over the best BAB the single weapon fighter can muster.

Think that might ever make a difference?

I can stun a high DR creature-- a rakshasa lord, for example-- by wielding my Weighted +10 Hammer in one hand and an Anarchic Pick of Pure Good in my other hand. You cannot do this as effectively with ONE WEAPON as you can with TWO WEAPONS.

TWF CAN APPLY TWICE AS MANY STRATEGIC COMBAT EFFECTS AS A SINGLE WEAPON FIGHTER.

And if you don't understand how that is a huge balancing factor in favor of TWF you're beyond rational persuasion.

Sorry but I don't think you should be forced to use 3 particular weapons in order to fight I do not personally call that balance. I would gladly trade that for the correct number of attacks that are useful at all levels and with all weapons.

Shecky
06-26-2007, 10:50 AM
The penalties of 1/2 strength on off-hand (sort of inverse of 2 go figure) are based off 2x the number of swings. The extra free attack DDO made up throws off the balance. Maybe you should think it through.

I did, chief, and I urge you to second-check your "thinking through" - post hoc ergo propter hoc is just plain silly thinking (connecting 1/2 str bonus to 2 when the two have nothing to do with each other). You seem to forget that TWF ALSO get that extra attack. Try again, this time without teachers directing you - I'm sure you can get it eventually.

Shecky
06-26-2007, 10:52 AM
Sorry but I don't think you should be forced to use 3 particular weapons in order to fight I do not personally call that balance. I would gladly trade that for the correct number of attacks that are useful at all levels and with all weapons.

Nobody's "forcing" you to do anything, champ. And "correct" as you're using it is employing some false assumptions that you really need to re-examine.

EightyFour
06-26-2007, 10:57 AM
I promise you that a TWF combo of Weighted 10 in one hand, Seeker 10 pick in the other will outperform a THF or S&B fighter with a vorpal.

Weighted 10 hammers and Seeker 10 picks aren't "uber" but there's a good chance they will get harder to find as soon as more TWF builds get the memo.

But generally speaking, I'm doing over 100 damage per crit, per two-weapon combo (seeker pick and weighted hammer), which I guess is over 300 damage per full attack animation cycle.


I don't buy it, your not going to have a whole lot of damage because you're not going to crit. all that often. Sure when the dice hit a 20 your almost certain that your going to get the crit. for x4. Which I would assume is coming from around a 30 str, that averages about 56 damage, and that is when you have a crit. normally your going to be doing around 15 points per hit.

I would say your averaging around 136 damage per animation.

(Unless your a rogue doing sneak attack or something?)

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 11:16 AM
I don't buy it, your not going to have a whole lot of damage because you're not going to crit. all that often.

Against a stunned opponent, every hit is a crit.

(Against any creature I want to kill, I will stun it 90% of the time by using my Stunning Blow clicky; and remember that 5% of all hits with a Weighted 10 weapon register a free Stun attempt-- that's comparable in frequency to a vorpal's natural 20.)

Doing a scale run last night, my crits were in the 70-90 range on a +1 Seeker 10 Light Pick of Righteousness, and around 30 points on a +1 Weighted 10 light hammer.

Remember that Seeker adds its bonus to the damage before multiplying. 70-80 points per crit is no sweat. (Just 22 STR by the way.)

I'm actually more curious how I was landing 30 points with the hammer, but I assure you I was.

The only mobs in there that resisted a Stunning Blow were the Stone Giant Earthcallers. They seemed a little tougher on the Fort saves, but that is purely anecdotal.

Anything smaller than a hill giant, and all of the cloud giant stormcallers, were easy prey.

And I only have a 22 STR and Dwarven Tactics I-- most of the hard work is done by the Weighted 10 component. So I guess my stun is about DC27.

sigtrent
06-26-2007, 11:33 AM
Listen to Wulf, he's telling you like it is gents.

TWF is simply awesome for tactical fighters, letting you combine strong tactics with high attack bonus or high damage weapons. It is amazing for any character who can maintain sneak attack in some way.

TWF is proven DPS. THF can be better but for that to happen you MUST be a STR build and you MUST use power attack effectively. TWF is not for huge brute fighters, it is for nimble characters. You can leverage STR effectively with it, but TWF is ingerently better at taking advantage of STR.

Its a game, you can't just arbitrarily say that every tactic is as good as every other in every situation. ITs like the wizards who complaing they can't web every monster every time, or the tactics fighters who cant trip every mosner every time... TWF isn't a winner in every situation. Neither is TWF. Neither is sword and board. Each has their place and each is effective in different situations and with different builds.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 11:52 AM
I did, chief, and I urge you to second-check your "thinking through" - post hoc ergo propter hoc is just plain silly thinking (connecting 1/2 str bonus to 2 when the two have nothing to do with each other). You seem to forget that TWF ALSO get that extra attack. Try again, this time without teachers directing you - I'm sure you can get it eventually.

In one "full attack", a TWF/THF gets
Level 1: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 3/2 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 5: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 4/3 = 1.3x, Net ratio 0.66
Level 6: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 5/3 = 1.66x, Net ratio 0.83
Level 10: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 6/4 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 11: PnP 6/3 = 2x, DDO 7/4 = 1.75x, Net ratio 0.875

I forgot nothing the ratio is not correct....

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 11:54 AM
Against a stunned opponent, every hit is a crit.

(Against any creature I want to kill, I will stun it 90% of the time by using my Stunning Blow clicky; and remember that 5% of all hits with a Weighted 10 weapon register a free Stun attempt-- that's comparable in frequency to a vorpal's natural 20.)

Doing a scale run last night, my crits were in the 70-90 range on a +1 Seeker 10 Light Pick of Righteousness, and around 30 points on a +1 Weighted 10 light hammer.

Remember that Seeker adds its bonus to the damage before multiplying. 70-80 points per crit is no sweat. (Just 22 STR by the way.)

I'm actually more curious how I was landing 30 points with the hammer, but I assure you I was.

The only mobs in there that resisted a Stunning Blow were the Stone Giant Earthcallers. They seemed a little tougher on the Fort saves, but that is purely anecdotal.

Anything smaller than a hill giant, and all of the cloud giant stormcallers, were easy prey.

And I only have a 22 STR and Dwarven Tactics I-- most of the hard work is done by the Weighted 10 component. So I guess my stun is about DC27.

So great I will add tactical fighter, to the list of rogue and rangers who should use TWF.

Still doesn't justify the extra penalty. Weapons should not count towards both hands so remove that and give back the extra attacks.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 11:55 AM
Listen to Wulf, he's telling you like it is gents.

TWF is simply awesome for tactical fighters, letting you combine strong tactics with high attack bonus or high damage weapons. It is amazing for any character who can maintain sneak attack in some way.

TWF is proven DPS. THF can be better but for that to happen you MUST be a STR build and you MUST use power attack effectively. TWF is not for huge brute fighters, it is for nimble characters. You can leverage STR effectively with it, but TWF is ingerently better at taking advantage of STR.

Its a game, you can't just arbitrarily say that every tactic is as good as every other in every situation. ITs like the wizards who complaing they can't web every monster every time, or the tactics fighters who cant trip every mosner every time... TWF isn't a winner in every situation. Neither is TWF. Neither is sword and board. Each has their place and each is effective in different situations and with different builds.

I am not saying make it better than two handed fighting it should be balanced as it is in PnP. Remove these effects that affect both hands as that is yet another Turbine unbalancing addition.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 11:56 AM
So great I will add tactical fighter, to the list of rogue and rangers who should use TWF.

Still doesn't justify the extra penalty. Weapons should not count towards both hands so remove that and give back the extra attacks.

You know what? I take that back.

Your position actually makes sense.

If it weren't for the fact that TWF is already well balanced in DDO, you certainly could justify removing the advantages it has now, and replacing them instead with the "correct" doubling of attacks.

That's a reasonable difference of opinion.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:00 PM
TWF CAN APPLY TWICE AS MANY STRATEGIC COMBAT EFFECTS AS A SINGLE WEAPON FIGHTER.

And if you don't understand how that is a huge balancing factor in favor of TWF you're beyond rational persuasion.

1. There is absolutely no PnP basis for TWF being superior for special melee attack tricks. Indeed, TWF is inferior for those purposes because the -2 hit penalty is more important, and the one-handed and light weapons give you a penalty on opposed disarm checks.

2. How well do those melee special attacks help when it's time to kill the red-named boss? Oh right, not at all (unless you care about Sunder).

3. The weapon effects which apply to both hands were added to DDO long after the TWF animation style was designed. Obviously they work on both hands because of an accident of coding, not because it was planned out that way.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 12:00 PM
You're on ignore from this point.

Cool I win then sweet!

Pellegro
06-26-2007, 12:04 PM
In one "full attack", a TWF/THF gets
Level 1: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 3/2 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 5: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 4/3 = 1.3x, Net ratio 0.66
Level 6: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 5/3 = 1.66x, Net ratio 0.83
Level 10: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 6/4 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 11: PnP 6/3 = 2x, DDO 7/4 = 1.75x, Net ratio 0.875

I forgot nothing the ratio is not correct....

Maybe I'm missing something, but why does the ratio of main to off hand attacks matter? I mean, I guess it may matter if you're getting the same # of attacks in DDO as PnP, but you aren't. At all levels, you get *more* attacks in DDO than you do in PnP.

I'll take the reduced ratio with the extra attacks myself. I mean, are you really proposing at level 11 you want 6 main, 3 offhand attacks instead of 7 and 4 respectively???

Why does it matter if you get a 2-1 main to offhand attack ratio anyhow? Think of it like this - instead of getting 6 main and 3 off at level 11, you get a bonus main, and a bonus off. Does that throw off the ratio? Sure. Would you rather trade the attacks back to preserve the ratio? Doubtful.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 12:07 PM
1. There is absolutely no PnP basis for...

Irrelevant.


2. How well do those melee special attacks help when it's time to kill the red-named boss? Oh right, not at all (unless you care about Sunder).

That would fall under the category of "not good in every situation."

Destruction and Seeker remains a very useful combination. Actually, both of these are almost always good.

But, I think it's safe to say that boss immunities are fodder for another thread.


3. The weapon effects which apply to both hands were added to DDO long after the TWF animation style was designed. Obviously they work on both hands because of an accident of coding, not because it was planned out that way.

I'm not sure that's obvious, but I'll grant you the larger point that the bonus weapon effects came long after the "incorrect" doubling of TWF.

What that has to do with TWF's balance or relevance in the game now, you will have to explain.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 12:09 PM
Maybe I'm missing something, but why does the ratio of main to off hand attacks matter? I mean, I guess it may matter if you're getting the same # of attacks in DDO as PnP, but you aren't. At all levels, you get *more* attacks in DDO than you do in PnP.

I'll take the reduced ratio with the extra attacks myself. I mean, are you really proposing at level 11 you want 6 main, 3 offhand attacks instead of 7 and 4 respectively???

Why does it matter if you get a 2-1 main to offhand attack ratio anyhow? Think of it like this - instead of getting 6 main and 3 off at level 11, you get a bonus main, and a bonus off. Does that throw off the ratio? Sure. Would you rather trade the attacks back to preserve the ratio? Doubtful.

The difference is that a two hander gets certain advantages to compensate. They get double credit for power attack and 1.5X strength bonus. Every extra "main hand" attack benefits them more than it does the TWF. If the TWF cannot get equal number of off-hand attacks to compensate they do less damage.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 12:11 PM
You know what? I take that back.

Your position actually makes sense.

If it weren't for the fact that TWF is already well balanced in DDO, you certainly could justify removing the advantages it has now, and replacing them instead with the "correct" doubling of attacks.

That's a reasonable difference of opinion.

It is balanced now for SOME and at some levels. The original system is in my opinion more balanced for more people more of the time.

I agree the way it works now works well for some and at level 14 with GTWF you are getting pretty close to the right number of attacks. At level 5 though your not. That is my problem with the current system.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:15 PM
Irrelevant.
Someone who calls a simularity to PnP "Irrelevant" is not worth talking to.

Pellegro
06-26-2007, 12:20 PM
Ohhh I understand now. In PnP, a TwoHander gets, say, 3 attacks/round at level 11, while a TWF gets 6 - i.e. the TWF gets twice as many attacks.

In DDO, the TwoHander gets 4 attacks/round at level 11, while they TWF gets only 7.

OK, I follow that.

Now if I'm further following your logic, you suggest that TWF gets twice as many attacks as THF in PnP to equalize their DPS. You point to the fact that the offhand attacks in PnP are at 1/2 strength bonus.

But the 1/2 strength bonus applied only to off-hand would in no way equalize the damage output between TWF and THF. There are a multitude of factors that go into play - the to-hit penalties (esp. when not using a light offhand weapon), the damage/hit of one-handed weapons vs. two-handed, etc.

In addition, as noted above, TWF gets access to twice the combat effects including bonuses.

Overall, I'm not persuaded by your logic. I just don't see how the ratio matters much. Ultimately, the question is balance, and personally I think TWFs tend to do as much (and sometimes more) DPS than THFs.

Anecdotal, yes, but incomplete analysis is worse than experience.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 12:20 PM
Someone who calls a simularity to PnP "Irrelevant" is not worth talking to.

You will find I am most frequently a champion of PnP adherence.

That does not cloud my judgment when it comes to analyzing whether an existing implementation-- regardless of how far it may have departed from PnP-- is balanced or not.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:24 PM
Why does it matter if you get a 2-1 main to offhand attack ratio anyhow? Think of it like this - instead of getting 6 main and 3 off at level 11, you get a bonus main, and a bonus off. Does that throw off the ratio? Sure. Would you rather trade the attacks back to preserve the ratio? Doubtful.
You would if you were smart.

The question is "How much benefit do you get from using TWF compared to the price you pay".

The price to using TWF is to
1. Either
a. Have high dex and spend 3 feats
b. Be a ranger
2. Either
a. Use smaller weapons (than THF)
b. Have less protection (than holding a shield)
3. Less strength bonus
4. -2 attack penalty (at least)
5. More inventory space spent on weapons

In PnP, a character who pays those prices gets 2x the rate of attacks. He goes from attacking twice per round (at BAB 6) to four times per round. That is a big and impressive increase. But in DDO, he goes from attacking 3 times per round to 5 times per round- a smaller proportional increase.

Sure, the total number of attacks is higher than in PnP, but the proportion by which he's increased DPS by spending those feats and other penalties is not.

Take a more extreme example: Imagine if DDO gave all characters 10 extra attacks per round. Thus a BAB 6 SWF fighter would have 12 and a TWF fighter would have 14. Obviously, getting 16% more attacks like that is not worth spending 2 feats and taking other penalties- yet by your logic, it's fine.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 12:24 PM
Ohhh I understand now. In PnP, a TwoHander gets, say, 3 attacks/round at level 11, while a TWF gets 6 - i.e. the TWF gets twice as many attacks.

In DDO, the TwoHander gets 4 attacks/round at level 11, while they TWF gets only 7.

OK, I follow that.

Now if I'm further following your logic, you suggest that TWF gets twice as many attacks as THF in PnP to equalize their DPS. You point to the fact that the offhand attacks in PnP are at 1/2 strength bonus.

But the 1/2 strength bonus applied only to off-hand would in no way equalize the damage output between TWF and THF. There are a multitude of factors that go into play - the to-hit penalties (esp. when not using a light offhand weapon), the damage/hit of one-handed weapons vs. two-handed, etc.

In addition, as noted above, TWF gets access to twice the combat effects including bonuses.

Overall, I'm not persuaded by your logic. I just don't see how the ratio matters much. Ultimately, the question is balance, and personally I think TWFs tend to do as much (and sometimes more) DPS than THFs.

Anecdotal, yes, but incomplete analysis is worse than experience.

If you ignore the double counting of some effects like backstabbing which do throw things off (I would again be for removing this as I don't think it makes much sense for one weapon to affect another).

The simplest way to look at it is in PnP the -2 to hit and 1/2 strength bonus were designed to offset the fact that you are getting 2x the number of attacks. If you are not getting 2x the number of attacks then the penalties are too steep. Note in PnP you can still get twice the normal effect bonuses, but this is canceled out by higher critical multipliers and other things.

jkm
06-26-2007, 12:40 PM
Ohhh I understand now. In PnP, a TwoHander gets, say, 3 attacks/round at level 11, while a TWF gets 6 - i.e. the TWF gets twice as many attacks.

In DDO, the TwoHander gets 4 attacks/round at level 11, while they TWF gets only 7.

OK, I follow that.

Now if I'm further following your logic, you suggest that TWF gets twice as many attacks as THF in PnP to equalize their DPS. You point to the fact that the offhand attacks in PnP are at 1/2 strength bonus.

But the 1/2 strength bonus applied only to off-hand would in no way equalize the damage output between TWF and THF. There are a multitude of factors that go into play - the to-hit penalties (esp. when not using a light offhand weapon), the damage/hit of one-handed weapons vs. two-handed, etc.

In addition, as noted above, TWF gets access to twice the combat effects including bonuses.

Overall, I'm not persuaded by your logic. I just don't see how the ratio matters much. Ultimately, the question is balance, and personally I think TWFs tend to do as much (and sometimes more) DPS than THFs.

Anecdotal, yes, but incomplete analysis is worse than experience.

glancing blows is where the big issue comes in. my THF can generate another 15-25 points of damage on 2 out of the 4 swings on all the mobs in my view arc including the one i'm swinging at :confused: . so while they are similar in dps output on a single mob sans the glancing blows, you add them in and the single target dps and the multi target dps of the 2 handed fighter is much, much better.

to me, the key item is that the 2 handed fighting feats should have been opened up to both TWF and THF if your strength was high enough as all they do is add this made up notion of glancing blows. so that a TWF would have to take 6 feats but it would even up the dps with the THF who has taken all 3 THF feats.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 12:47 PM
You would if you were smart.

The question is "How much benefit do you get from using TWF compared to the price you pay".

That's the part you're not honestly addressing. DDO has mechanics in place to make the benefits match the price, despite the fact that I'm not getting exactly 2x as many attacks.


The price to using TWF is to
1. Either
a. Have high dex and spend 3 feats
b. Be a ranger

Let's not forget Quick Draw...


In PnP, a character who pays those prices gets 2x the rate of attacks.

And in DDO a character who pays those prices gets ~1.5x the rate of attacks PLUS the ability to use combat modifiers in absolutely optimal combinations for any given foe.

DDO characters have access to a selection of weapons that would be utterly unthinkable in a typical PnP game.


Obviously, getting 16% more attacks like that is not worth spending 2 feats and taking other penalties- yet by your logic, it's fine.

No, by my logic, the current implementation is fine. Let's not set up straw men.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:47 PM
No, by my logic, the current implementation is fine. Let's not set up straw men.
It's not a "straw man". I am talking to someone else. Not you. His logic was not your logic.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:47 PM
glancing blows is where the big issue comes in. my THF can generate another 15-25 points of damage on 2 out of the 4 swings on all the mobs in my view arc including the one i'm swinging at :confused: . so while they are similar in dps output on a single mob sans the glancing blows, you add them in and the single target dps and the multi target dps of the 2 handed fighter is much, much better.
No. Even without glancing blows, the THF is still better. The slightly increased attack rate of the TWF character doesn't compensate for double benefit from Power Attack.

And anyway, the goal for TWF should not be parity with THF. THF is a style all fighters learn for free- they don't need to spend three feats on it. If something costs 3 feats, it should almost always be better than the free option.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 12:49 PM
And in DDO a character who pays those prices gets ~1.5x the rate of attacks PLUS the ability to use combat modifiers in absolutely optimal combinations for any given foe.
A correct implementation of TWF would be viable for someone not based on combat tactical feats. It would be beneficial for someone who's standing toe-to-toe with a purple-named raid boss and making full attacks.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 12:57 PM
And in DDO a character who pays those prices gets ~1.5x the rate of attacks PLUS the ability to use combat modifiers in absolutely optimal combinations for any given foe.

DDO characters have access to a selection of weapons that would be utterly unthinkable in a typical PnP game.



No, by my logic, the current implementation is fine. Let's not set up straw men.

I guess this is the part that I disagree with. A system that only becomes balanced at maximum level with particular gear to me is a flawed system.

In PnP with just straight + weapons and 2x the attacks at any level to 14 the combat styles are pretty balanced. I don't need to wait until I get GTWF and use particular gear to be effective. Some classes cannot even take GTWF until past level 14. The effectiveness at each level is not constant and some builds and classes benefit over others. Not everyone has stunning blow or wants to go that route. In PnP a TWF straight damage build is possible to do and get pretty close to two handed, but that is not the case in DDO unless you build a certain way with certain weapons.

Mad_Bombardier
06-26-2007, 01:00 PM
A correct implementation of TWF would be viable for someone not based on combat tactical feats. It would be beneficial for someone who's standing toe-to-toe with a purple-named raid boss and making full attacks.I tend to agree. Just because you can find ways to optimize the poor real-time translation of TWF does not mean it's a good system. If the system was equitable in the first place, you wouldn't need to find those gimmicks. And yes, I would be ok with suffixes not applying to both weapons.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 01:08 PM
In PnP with just straight + weapons and 2x the attacks at any level to 14 the combat styles are pretty balanced. I don't need to wait until I get GTWF and use particular gear to be effective. Some classes cannot even take GTWF until past level 14.
Note that if you have a dwarf tactics fighter who uses combined Seeker and Weighted weapons to be effective with TWF, you don't actually need GTWF. You don't even need ITWF- all you need is TWF so you can dual-wield with minimal attack penalties.

Then by timing it right, you can make your twinned Stunning Blow attempt every 15 seconds but otherwise attack at +1 above the rate of a normal SWF fighter.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 01:17 PM
I mentioned this before, but didn't spell it out. Just to make sure everyone's clear:

One of the key advantages to a tactics fighter using TWF is basically an exploit. DDO's designers intended for a character to be able to use the Trip and Stunning Blow special attacks once per cooldown timer (which means once every about 15 seconds).

However, if you are holding two weapons as you make such a special attack you can get "twinned attacks", meaning the enemy must make two strength checks against Trip or two fortitude saves against stun. You're literally putting out the Stunning Blows at double the net rate.

That is a HUGE benefit for a TWF tactical fighter. But is it part of the intentional design of the TWF feats? Certainly not. Is taking advantage of that effect an exploit of the game? Arguably it is.

jkm
06-26-2007, 01:23 PM
No. Even without glancing blows, the THF is still better. The slightly increased attack rate of the TWF character doesn't compensate for double benefit from Power Attack.

And anyway, the goal for TWF should not be parity with THF. THF is a style all fighters learn for free- they don't need to spend three feats on it. If something costs 3 feats, it should almost always be better than the free option.

i agree that twf needs an extra off-hand attack. however, the question is where do you put it? TWF? seems a little powerful since you get quite a bit already with that feat. ITWF? would it be okay to add 2 attacks for level 6 rangers who are already incredibly powerful at that level? or do you add it for GTWF when rangers are rapidly being replaced by THFs?

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 01:27 PM
i agree that twf needs an extra off-hand attack. however, the question is where do you put it? TWF? seems a little powerful since you get quite a bit already with that feat. ITWF? would it be okay to add 2 attacks for level 6 rangers who are already incredibly powerful at that level? or do you add it for GTWF when rangers are rapidly being replaced by THFs?

There are other approaches one could take. One would be to give a speed advantage to the TWF animation giving extra swings over time to compensate. You don't actually have to give more rolls in the current animation just more swings over time.

Shecky
06-26-2007, 01:43 PM
I guess this is the part that I disagree with. A system that only becomes balanced at maximum level with particular gear to me is a flawed system.

If that's the case, then PnP is fatally flawed - balance shifts from melees owning at lower levels to becoming essentially nothing more than bodyguards for casters at higher levels. So?

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 01:47 PM
If that's the case, then PnP is fatally flawed - balance shifts from melees owning at lower levels to becoming essentially nothing more than bodyguards for casters at higher levels. So?

So you are comparing casters versus non-casters and saying that is the same thing as comparing two up front DPS fighting styles?

They are pretty balanced in PnP and not in DDO so I really have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 02:09 PM
They are pretty balanced in PnP and not in DDO so I really have no idea what point you are trying to make.
He's pointing out that one thing is imperfect, so there's no reason to strive for anything else to do better. This is a classic fallacy- best to ignore it.

Shecky
06-26-2007, 02:19 PM
So you are comparing casters versus non-casters and saying that is the same thing as comparing two up front DPS fighting styles?

They are pretty balanced in PnP and not in DDO so I really have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The point I'm making is that ANY comparison you make in PnP, DDO or both is NEVER going to be entirely balanced, so it's a bit whiney to gripe about it. For example, if the melee v. caster imbalance mattered to me so much as to gripe about it, I'd roll nothing but casters in PnP. It doesn't matter. That's my point.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 02:20 PM
The point I'm making is that ANY comparison you make in PnP, DDO or both is NEVER going to be entirely balanced, so it's a bit whiney to gripe about it.
Complex human endeavors cannot reach perfection, but that by no means invalidates efforts to improve them.

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 02:21 PM
The point I'm making is that ANY comparison you make in PnP, DDO or both is NEVER going to be entirely balanced, so it's a bit whiney to gripe about it. For example, if the melee v. caster imbalance mattered to me so much as to gripe about it, I'd roll nothing but casters in PnP. It doesn't matter. That's my point.

So why are you bothering with posting in my thread if my whining bothers you? Last time I checked I posted this in the DEVELOPMENT DISCUSSION forum which by design is meant to discuss future development and design of the game and changes we would like to see.

Spookykid
06-26-2007, 02:40 PM
IMPROVED TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.

and the extra greater TWF attack is at -10

there is no way PnP is more powerfull

EinarMal
06-26-2007, 02:43 PM
IMPROVED TWO-WEAPON FIGHTING [GENERAL]
Prerequisites: Dex 17, Two-Weapon Fighting, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a –5 penalty.

and the extra greater TWF attack is at -10

there is no way PnP is more powerfull

This is way different in DDO the entire attack chain is reversed for everyone. The one hander also makes attacks at a -5 penalty so yes it is more powerful in PnP.

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 02:52 PM
there is no way PnP is more powerfull
Look, that's not the question.

DDO has made all player warriors more powerful. Any DDO character could walk up to the corresponding PnP character and rip him to shreds*. It's not about if a particular style is more or less strong than it was in PnP- it's about the relative power of different combat styles in relation to their cost in feats and requirements.

In PnP, ITWF gives you +1 attack which brings you to double the attack rate of a THF. In DDO, ITWF also gives you +1 attack, which brings you to 166% the attack rate of a THF. Stop looking at the additive increase and focus on the multiplicative increase.

* Unless it's a wizard with the Fly spell, of course. Then you can't walk up to the PnP guy at all.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 02:52 PM
A correct implementation of TWF would be viable for someone not based on combat tactical feats. It would be beneficial for someone who's standing toe-to-toe with a purple-named raid boss and making full attacks.

Weighted and Seeker, along with Stunning Blow, is the best combination I have found, but there's nothing stopping any TWF from using both of these weapons without any supporting feats whatsoever.

The 5% free chance to stun with a weighted weapon remains analagous to a natural 20, and seeker is in effect at all times.

Other good (non-feat) off-hand choices are Destruction and Backstabbing (although Backstabbing is not a good toe-to-toe choice).

EightyFour
06-27-2007, 12:34 AM
And I only have a 22 STR and Dwarven Tactics I-- most of the hard work is done by the Weighted 10 component. So I guess my stun is about DC27.

OK, you caught my interest, how do you figure your stunning blow is a DC 27?

Kraldor
06-27-2007, 12:45 AM
OK, you caught my interest, how do you figure your stunning blow is a DC 27?

DC 27 = 10 + 6 (STR Mod) + 10 (Weighted 5%) + 1 (Dwarven Tactics)

Wulf_Ratbane
06-27-2007, 07:39 AM
DC 27 = 10 + 6 (STR Mod) + 10 (Weighted 5%) + 1 (Dwarven Tactics)

I think that's right. One of the latest patches improved the tooltip for Stunning Blow, so if you mouse over it, you can see the formula for the DC.

Improved Trip adds another 4 to the normal Trip DC, in addition to speeding up the cooldown. (I think.)

EightyFour
06-27-2007, 11:40 AM
I think that's right. One of the latest patches improved the tooltip for Stunning Blow, so if you mouse over it, you can see the formula for the DC.

Improved Trip adds another 4 to the normal Trip DC, in addition to speeding up the cooldown. (I think.)

Well I'll give it a shot and see how it works out than.