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Grenfell
06-25-2007, 10:20 AM
From the 6/25 WDA:



NEW – Human Versatility has undergone some revisions, and now grants five subabilities. Instead of being restricted only to a skill boost, Humans may now display their versatility by gaining a short duration increase to skills, damage, attack rolls, saves, or armor class. These boosts draw from one common pool of 5.

Human Versatility I

Prereq: Human Level 1
Cost: 1 Action Point
Grants the ability to display your versatility as a +2 bonus to skills, damage, attack rolls, saves, or armor class for 20 seconds.

Human Versatility - Skills I. Activate this ability to receive a +2 bonus to skills for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Damage I. Activate this ability to receive a +2 bonus to damage for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Attack I.Activate this ability to receive a +2 bonus to attack rolls for 20 seconds.

Human Versatility - Saves I. Activate this ability to receive a +2 bonus to saves for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Armor Class I. Activate this ability to receive a +2 bonus to armor class for 20 seconds.


Human Versatility II

Prereq: Human Level 4, 10 Action Points Spent, Human Versatility I
Cost: 2 Action Points
Grants the ability to display your versatility as a +3 bonus to skills, damage, attack rolls, saves, or armor class for 20 seconds.

Human Versatility - Skills II. Activate this ability to receive a +3 bonus to skills for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Damage II. Activate this ability to receive a +3 bonus to damage for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Attack II. Activate this ability to receive a +3 bonus to attack rolls for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Saves II. Activate this ability to receive a +3 bonus to saves for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Armor Class II. Activate this ability to receive a +3 bonus to armor class for 20 seconds.


Human Versatility III

Prereq: Human Level 7, 21 Action Points Spent, Human Versatility II
Cost: 3 Action Points
Grants the ability to display your versatility as a +4 bonus to skills, damage, attack rolls, saves, or armor class for 20 seconds.

Human Versatility - Skills III. Activate this ability to receive a +4 bonus to skills for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Damage III. Activate this ability to receive a +4 bonus to damage for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Attack III. Activate this ability to receive a +4 bonus to attack rolls for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Saves III. Activate this ability to receive a +4 bonus to saves for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Armor Class III. Activate this ability to receive a +4 bonus to armor class for 20 seconds.


Human Versatility IV

Prereq: Human Level 10, 32 Action Points Spent, Human Versatility III
Cost: 4 Action Points
Grants the ability to display your versatility as a +5 bonus to skills, damage, attack rolls, saves, or armor class for 20 seconds.

Human Versatility - Skills IV. Activate this ability to receive a +5 bonus to skills for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Damage IV. Activate this ability to receive a +5 bonus to damage for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Attack IV. Activate this ability to receive a +5 bonus to attack rolls for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Saves IV. Activate this ability to receive a +5 bonus to saves for 20 seconds.
Human Versatility - Armor Class IV. Activate this ability to receive a +5 bonus to armor class for 20 seconds.





Okay, this is cool and all but... is there any chance we'll get to some stability in the game system in the next couple of months?

It's great for us build engineers to have more options to play with, but things like this really change the game system dramatically.

For one example - any Dwarven defensive tank just took a large hammer to the head, unless I'm very mistaken about how things work.

I'm pretty sure Human Barbarians now dominate the genre as well.

It's cool to have new stuff with every patch, but could you let us know when you're done with the basic game mechanics and system so we'll know what the expect from DDO?

Thanks,

/gren

Arjen
06-25-2007, 10:23 AM
Not seeing how a change to a 20 second boost is a fundamental change to the game. Care to elaborate Gren?

IMO, boosting in general is a drag, and I pretty much avoid it.

Freeman
06-25-2007, 10:26 AM
All these boosts are available under different classes, so it isn't going to change any numbers. Also, you can still only use one boost at a time, so a human paladin can't boost his AC with both at the same time. No, this isn't going to change the game at all. In fact, I think it is only a minor improvement to humans at best.

Aspenor
06-25-2007, 10:27 AM
I'm trying to figure out how Dwarven Defensive Tanks took a hit when it's a Human Versatility fix?

Gror_Stoneshard
06-25-2007, 10:28 AM
For one example - any Dwarven defensive tank just took a large hammer to the head, unless I'm very mistaken about how things work.
What do I care if humans get a 20 second AC boost?

Klattuu
06-25-2007, 10:29 AM
This is a good thing.

It was determined that the original Human Versatility was too powerful and the fix was too weak.

This change looks much more...well...versatile and is much more attractive as an option.

tihocan
06-25-2007, 10:30 AM
It's cool but certainly not such a big change, just a little boost to human. In particular because you can have only one AB at a time.

Mockduck
06-25-2007, 10:30 AM
Gotta agree with many of the posters here....this seems like a minor change at best. Unless there's something I really don't get.

Grenfell
06-25-2007, 10:34 AM
I come at things from a metagame perspective, because I do so much build engineering.

Dwarven Defensive Tanks took a hit because their Human counterpart is now almost clearly superior.

Humans can now (a) Intimidate better, (b) do more damage, (c) have better saves, (d) have more AC.

Granted, it's for 20 secs at a time, but if you can't see why that would make someone pick a Human over a Dwarf for defensive tanking, you're not seeing the whole picture.

You never have those situations where you go "Oh #@)($" and you're swarmed by 9 hard-hitting mofo's? Your human tank can go "Defensive Boost" and get to 70 AC; your Dwarf cannot.

Or what about trying to deal with beholders and mind flayers at the same time? Human tank goes, "Hm, save +5 boost please!"

What about when tanking isn't a big issue and you just want to deal out DPS as fast as possible? Human tank flips off CE, picks up a 2hander, and goes "+5 to damage for 20 secs".

20 secs is a big deal, IMHO. Few fights last longer than that. Times five per rest, and this is a BIG change.

Freeman - I didn't see how these boosts are restricted by class. It seems to me that any Human can choose to use ONE of the five boosts at any given time. Not multiple boosts, and they're all on same timers/# of uses, but they're not restricted by CLASS per se.

Yes, your Human Barb can now rage and hit the to-hit boost and attain to-hits that non-humans can only dream of. +5 to hit, btw, equates to +10 in Strength. For 20 secs, sure, but there it is.

I didn't say this is unbalancing to the game; I do say it's unbalancing to the metagame and will change a LOT of builds and where they rank in the multiverse.

/gren

OKCRandy1
06-25-2007, 10:36 AM
I'm building a human barbarian, I won't spend the action points on any of those.

joracie
06-25-2007, 10:37 AM
But dwarves still get the axe bonuses, free exotic weapon, bonus con and an extra(now buffed up) toughness. Humans are a little more...all around but they are suppose to be right?

Aspenor
06-25-2007, 10:38 AM
I didn't say this is unbalancing to the game; I do say it's unbalancing to the metagame and will change a LOT of builds and where they rank in the multiverse.


While certainly helpful to fighters, I doubt this small change will affect the mindset many have that dwarves are THE race in DDO.

Many, many players dislike boosts. Dwarves still can have a higher unboosted AC than a human.

And of course you'll have to choose one boost to crank up, you don't get them all for one enhancement. Having ALL the boosts would be a bit too AP expensive for effectiveness.

Mad_Bombardier
06-25-2007, 10:40 AM
Gren, lets look at each of those examples. Given that enhancement system boosts are all the same and cannot be used concurrently.

a) HV did this already, no change in metagame.
b) Humans can get +3 more than Dwarves with axes/Elves with longswords/Drow with rapiers for 20 seconds at a time, minor change in metagame.
c) Barbs already do this with Uncanny Dodge, no change in metagame.
d) Fighters already do this with Fighter AC boost, no change in metagame.

So, one minor change in metagame and some more flexibilty options for Humans to do these things.

Impaqt
06-25-2007, 11:01 AM
Have to agree with the majority here.... Seems to me the Meta game will work itself out... I doubt I'll be creating many "Uber Human Builds" due to 20 second at a time boosts....

Sure, 20 Seconds is plenty for Most encounters.... But For Raids.. Its woefully inadequet.

Shecky
06-25-2007, 11:25 AM
I come at things from a metagame perspective, because I do so much build engineering.

Dwarven Defensive Tanks took a hit because their Human counterpart is now almost clearly superior.

Humans can now (a) Intimidate better, (b) do more damage, (c) have better saves, (d) have more AC.

Granted, it's for 20 secs at a time, but if you can't see why that would make someone pick a Human over a Dwarf for defensive tanking, you're not seeing the whole picture.

You never have those situations where you go "Oh #@)($" and you're swarmed by 9 hard-hitting mofo's? Your human tank can go "Defensive Boost" and get to 70 AC; your Dwarf cannot.

Granted. But you're limited to 5x/quest unless you're willing to wipe out all those friendly casters' buffs, a move sure to make it REALLY hard to quest. :D


Or what about trying to deal with beholders and mind flayers at the same time? Human tank goes, "Hm, save +5 boost please!"

And a dwarven fighter says, "Ach, I've got me Dwarven Spell Defense for fewer AP, laddie."


What about when tanking isn't a big issue and you just want to deal out DPS as fast as possible? Human tank flips off CE, picks up a 2hander, and goes "+5 to damage for 20 secs".

The dwarf keeps swinging his axe for all the seconds.


20 secs is a big deal, IMHO. Few fights last longer than that. Times five per rest, and this is a BIG change.

What it comes down to is this: dwarves already get a big chunk of these as permanently as they choose, usually spending fewer AP to do so. And in the cases where this change DOES bring the human ahead, refer to the aforementioned buff-wiping. Maybe I'm overly party-conscious, but if I've asked for a buff and have a good while left on it, I'll use potions instead of shrining to get the max use out of that buff.

This is NOT to say that the new HV doesn't help out humans - it does. I'm just saying that dwarven fighters aren't taking as big a hit as you think. FWIW, I believe HV should go back to being a non-boost, permanent effect - as you can tell, I much prefer an always-on modest improvement over an occasional large improvement, especially in the context of quests that last 30+ minutes or even an hour and more. Just my personal take on it. :)

Hurin
06-25-2007, 11:27 AM
Two questions:

Are the HV boosts on the same timer as action boosts?

Do they cost a usage of your action boost?

If the answers are yes and yes, these don't seem to be gamebreaking... or even all that useful.

If either answer is no, they could be pretty good.

Freeman
06-25-2007, 11:31 AM
All action boosts are on the same timer, so you can't have two active at once. However, all boosts now have their own counters, so using HV boost would subtract one from that counter, but not from any separately purchased action boosts.(Different HV boosts, such as skills and damage, should be on the same counter since they are just variations of the same basic boost)

Tanka
06-25-2007, 11:38 AM
As with the majority of the thread, I don't see these as majorly gamechanging.

My Dwarven Fighter isn't shaking in his boots. And that non-shaking isn't even because of the Toughness Enhancement changes -- I have not and will not be taking a-one.

Olaustt
06-25-2007, 11:42 AM
Ya ok Grenfell, some good points, but I agree with Shecky here. Im not going to rest with all my wonderfull buffs so I can get boosts back. I don't ever plan to use boosts personally.

Dwarven fighter with Dwarven Tactics and other fighter enhancements using stuning blow, trip and sunder will fare better, especially if he has talent and uses good tactics. You may all think im crazy but I take mobilty on all my Melee characters. It works very well especially with the new pathing!! I can move and reposition myself without taking a -4 and out manuver mobs all the while im still hiting them and tumbling around with an additional +4 to my AC. If you just stand in one place and whack away I can see why you would NEED those enhancements they are, imho not necessay if you play a little smarter.

EightyFour
06-25-2007, 11:43 AM
So now I'm going to have some bothersome box pop up every time I want to use it? I feel every time I read these the state of the game is worse and worse. And I feel as most of the things on there is just someone spinning there wheels.

MysticTheurge
06-25-2007, 11:48 AM
So now I'm going to have some bothersome box pop up every time I want to use it? I feel every time I read these the state of the game is worse and worse. And I feel as most of the things on there is just someone spinning there wheels.

No, there'll be four different icons in your "Enhancements" window and you'll drag the ones you want to your hotbar.

The_Cataclysm
06-25-2007, 11:51 AM
So now I'm going to have some bothersome box pop up every time I want to use it? I feel every time I read these the state of the game is worse and worse. And I feel as most of the things on there is just someone spinning there wheels.

If there is a pop up box you would only have to see it once see you would be able to throw the options into your hotbar.

Cinwulf
06-25-2007, 11:54 AM
I do agree that the Dev's need to stop changing things around so much, or come up with a total respec function if they do.

Grenfell
06-25-2007, 12:01 PM
While certainly helpful to fighters, I doubt this small change will affect the mindset many have that dwarves are THE race in DDO.

Many, many players dislike boosts. Dwarves still can have a higher unboosted AC than a human.

And of course you'll have to choose one boost to crank up, you don't get them all for one enhancement. Having ALL the boosts would be a bit too AP expensive for effectiveness.

The way it's written, Asp, you get ALL of the boosts for one enhancement. You just can't USE all of them, or more than one at a time. But you do in fact get ALL of the boosts. Maybe I'm misreading the description, but that does seem like a really good deal to me.

Maybe you're right -- people won't see the value of this... yet. Until the next generation builds are fully active, they won't see it.

My problem is that practically every patch invalidates some builds and makes others stronger; maybe that's the goal, but man, in a MMO, that's just painful.

/gren

Grenfell
06-25-2007, 12:08 PM
First, most of my current guys are 32pt dwarves. I know all about Dwarf love, and the new master race. :D

Second, I was just using one example of the Dwarf DEFENSIVE tank; the guys who are all about swinging greataxes (like me) aren't affected much at all. The tactics guys are still tops. The defensive tanks, I think, are hurtin' in comparison to their human counterparts.

I'm not criticizing any particular build/race/whatever -- just pointing out that these enhancements change things.

We'll see how dramatically they change things, but I'm already seeing some real possibilities for my battlecleric, for bard, for evasion barbarian, for arcane melees, for paladins, for straight barbs, etc. etc.

But the point is... when does it stop? When can we get some stability in the core system so we know what to expect? Right now, I feel like every patch day is "Let's see what build got nuked" day.

/gren

Borror0
06-25-2007, 12:09 PM
The way it's written, Asp, you get ALL of the boosts for one enhancement. You just can't USE all of them, or more than one at a time. But you do in fact get ALL of the boosts. Maybe I'm misreading the description, but that does seem like a really good deal to me.

Maybe you're right -- people won't see the value of this... yet. Until the next generation builds are fully active, they won't see it.

My problem is that practically every patch invalidates some builds and makes others stronger; maybe that's the goal, but man, in a MMO, that's just painful.

/gren

I agree they should try to make DDO a bit more stable that's their job, they wouldn't make something that would make us unhappy would they?:rolleyes:

About Dwarven Tank shaking, I don't.

Freeman
06-25-2007, 12:14 PM
Based on the builds I've seen up to now, no one builds a character around boosts. They just don't last long enough to have a significant impact. And getting all of the boosts is a good deal, provided you plan on using boosts at all. Most builds I've look at use at most one boost, if they use any at all.

Since you already have all the information you need, what new build is now available using HV that will overpower existing builds?

Pellegro
06-25-2007, 12:23 PM
I tend to think that these boosts will change the min/max analysis and builds more than maybe meets the eye now.

I guess we'll see as the builds start coming in and the numbers get crunched.

Regardless, as for the OP's point - I kinda like that they keep changing things around as it keeps the game fresh, and hopefully, constantly getting better.

That said, I've *always* been a huge advocate for respecs. I'm resolved, however, to the fact that they never will permit it - not because of some slavish adherence to PnP or any of the other equally silly arguments against respecs.

They won't let us respec (IMO) because that would mean players would not have to reroll to min/max under the new rules. If players aren't continually rerolling, you're going to end up with servers populated with nothing but capped characters (or at least, you lose out on all those potential rerolls by letting them respec).

And that is a problem, I would think, because I suspect Turbine likes having lots of experienced players running around at the low levels so that when newbies hop on for the first month or so, they have a better experience.

Mercules
06-25-2007, 12:24 PM
But the point is... when does it stop? When can we get some stability in the core system so we know what to expect? Right now, I feel like every patch day is "Let's see what build got nuked" day.

Um... Gren... how many MMOs have you played on? It seems this way on most of them at least through the first year or so of growth. After a bit they all settle in a bit and the changes are only every so often but since DDO came out "lacking" a few things that probably should have been there at release I am willing to bet this flux state lasts a good deal longer.

You make great builds Gren, but if you build on the fine line of the cutting edge you are going to find your builds slipping over that edge every so often in an MMO.

Pellegro
06-25-2007, 12:25 PM
Since you already have all the information you need, what new build is now available using HV that will overpower existing builds?

I haven't done the numbers, but how about a bard/rogue, or even pure bard who wants to do some melee? Won't human be preferable to drow now?

GramercyRiff
06-25-2007, 12:32 PM
Yes, your Human Barb can now rage and hit the to-hit boost and attain to-hits that non-humans can only dream of. +5 to hit, btw, equates to +10 in Strength. For 20 secs, sure, but there it is.
/gren

Every game that lasts any amount of time changes. It's the duty of the players to adjust and adapt to those changes. It's ridiculous to demand that the developers of a game cease changing it.

A +5 to hit doesn't equate to +10 STR. That is absurd. A +10 STR also would give a damage boost, a bonus to resist Trip, among other things. While +5 to hit is substantial, it's not anywhere near what +10 STR is, so don't overrate it. Also, Barbs can already get extremely high attack bonuses, so damage boost is more advantageous in almost every fight in this game. The more damage you deal, the more benefit you get from Crit Rage.

All this does is make Humans more attractive and...versatile, which is supposed to be the strength of the race. Mission accomplished it seems to me.

bobbryan2
06-25-2007, 12:33 PM
I do agree that the Dev's need to stop changing things around so much, or come up with a total respec function if they do.

I definatley agree with this.

I do like that the devs are buffing HV up a little bit. But changing core game mechanics without a respec function is bad form.

Freeman
06-25-2007, 12:33 PM
I haven't done the numbers, but how about a bard/rogue, or even pure bard who wants to do some melee? Won't human be preferable to drow now?

Humans were always preferable to drow for bards, at least for me :p For a melee-oriented bard, the Inspired Attack and Damage lines are a much better choice, since they give +6/+6 attack and damage bonuses for over 7 minutes with the Lingering song enhancements. The AC and saves boost might be useful at times, but most bards and rogues are better off not drawing aggro in the first place. The biggest issue would be for a bard or rogue, two classes that have plenty of useful enhancements already, to try to buy the full line of HV without losing other useful enhancements. My bard currently has HV II, and I don't have any other enhancements I would give up for more boosts. Drow still get weapon enhancements as well as Dex enhancements that are on all the time, so that will have to be weighed in if you are considering them also.

As I said earlier, this boost is an improvement, and it will have uses. I just don't see it changing the overall power dynamic in the game. It will simply be a matter of trading off HV for other enhancements.

Grenfell
06-25-2007, 12:37 PM
Um... Gren... how many MMOs have you played on? It seems this way on most of them at least through the first year or so of growth. After a bit they all settle in a bit and the changes are only every so often but since DDO came out "lacking" a few things that probably should have been there at release I am willing to bet this flux state lasts a good deal longer.

You make great builds Gren, but if you build on the fine line of the cutting edge you are going to find your builds slipping over that edge every so often in an MMO.

I've played a few MMO's :)

Most of them don't have these sweeping changes every 6-8 weeks. You do have to admit that. You may not see these HV boosts as sweeping changes, but I do. I'm currently looking at my Dwarven BattleBard and going... hmm, that guy is probably better off as a Human under this system... maybe not enough to reroll, but... jeez. Remember when Balance was a throwaway skill? Until that rule/mechanic was changed.

I really do think though that the flux state you mention isn't necessarily a good thing. If Turbine is willing to acknowledge the flux state, then it should by all rights provide full respecs to let us deal with the flux state.

In most MMO's, you have sweeping changes once in a blue moon, but for the MOST part, it takes a paid expansion to introduce major game-changing things.

/gren

Boulderun
06-25-2007, 12:42 PM
I think the biggest problem with this change is the amount of space it's going to take up on the shortcut bars for people who will be using more than one of the options. :(

Grenfell
06-25-2007, 12:42 PM
Every game that lasts any amount of time changes. It's the duty of the players to adjust and adapt to those changes. It's ridiculous to demand that the developers of a game cease changing it.

A +5 to hit doesn't equate to +10 STR. That is absurd. A +10 STR also would give a damage boost, a bonus to resist Trip, among other things. While +5 to hit is substantial, it's not anywhere near what +10 STR is, so don't overrate it. Also, Barbs can already get extremely high attack bonuses, so damage boost is more advantageous in almost every fight in this game. The more damage you deal, the more benefit you get from Crit Rage.

You're misinterpreting things. +5 to hit DOES in fact equate to +10 Str when it comes to the TO HIT stat. If 40 Str = +15 to hit, then in order to get +20 to hit, you would need 50 Str.

Plus, if Barbs can already get such great attack bonuses, then hit the damage boost, and save your Barb boosts for DR boost. Or use both, and have 10 damage boosts to go with your Crit Rage, as compared to non-human barbarians.

Thing is, the Human Barb can get a +5 Saves boost that no other barbarian can get. Well, that now equates to a +10 Wisdom for 20 secs x 5 per rest. You don't think that's an advantage? /shrug Well, we'll see.

/gren

Gol
06-25-2007, 12:43 PM
Gren, I'll make this short and to the point:

I respectfully disagree. Humans are simply 'less gimp' for 100 seconds of questing.

Zenako
06-25-2007, 12:46 PM
I guess some of the difference we have here is what you see as a "sweeping change", others view as merely "tweaking the rules" to make an enhancement more attractive and thus a race more competitive. About the only boosts I routinely end up using are skill boosts for working traps/locks and for a boost to Haggle when buying and selling something.

I am with many others who find clickable boosts to be a lot less important than static boosts in actual gameplay.

Freeman
06-25-2007, 12:49 PM
Gren, I'll make this short and to the point:

I respectfully disagree. Humans are simply 'less gimp' for 100 seconds of questing.

Yeah, but we are still better looking than dwarves. No enhancement will change that :)

Tanka
06-25-2007, 12:49 PM
Gren, think of it as a balancing issue.

Why play a non-Dwarf frontline when you can get more HP, better Tactics DCs and better AC (overall) as a Dwarf?

Why play a Human at all when various races make for better X than a Human does?

This is a short step towards bringing Humans back into the "we can do anything you can do" category. It isn't a big step, but a step nonetheless.

Thrudh
06-25-2007, 01:05 PM
My problem is that practically every patch invalidates some builds and makes others stronger; maybe that's the goal, but man, in a MMO, that's just painful.

Heh, this your first MMO?

The above is the DEFINITION of an MMO... An ever-changing landscape my friend...

No one build will always be the best... In fact, you should welcome a game that makes sure no one build is always the best.

I'm quite impressed by Turbine's class balancing... I've played a lot of different classes, and I don't feel like ANY of them is "the best".. Each has strengths and weaknesses... But they're all pretty well-balanced.

Now, some races are more powerful for certain classes than others... Dwarves do have a little too much, in my mind...

Humans needed "something more". Why would you be upset that they gave us more reasons to consider humans an option when building characters? Very weird that you think this "hurts" dwarven classes...

Maybe dwarves won't be "the best" race anymore for certain classes... That's GOOD!

Choice is good... Not having one clear-cut race for every profession is EXACTLY what Turbine is trying to do here...

Be happy they bumped up humans, instead of taking away from dwarves.

Mercules
06-25-2007, 01:08 PM
I've played a few MMO's :)

Most of them don't have these sweeping changes every 6-8 weeks. You do have to admit that. You may not see these HV boosts as sweeping changes, but I do. I'm currently looking at my Dwarven BattleBard and going... hmm, that guy is probably better off as a Human under this system... maybe not enough to reroll, but... jeez. Remember when Balance was a throwaway skill? Until that rule/mechanic was changed.

I really do think though that the flux state you mention isn't necessarily a good thing. If Turbine is willing to acknowledge the flux state, then it should by all rights provide full respecs to let us deal with the flux state.

In most MMO's, you have sweeping changes once in a blue moon, but for the MOST part, it takes a paid expansion to introduce major game-changing things.

/gren

No, I don't have to admit that... Take CoH for example. How many changes has a /Regen or /Super Reflexes Scrapper gone through? The comments from them have frequently been, "It seems like I have to Respec every month or so."

Also, I know exactly why they don't allow Full Respecs. No one else does either. For full respecs you would need to change Races and Classes. MMOs do not allow this. Repec a Troll WoW Hunter and you have a Troll WoW Hunter with different skills. Respec an Empathy/Rad Defender in CoH you have an Empathy/Red Defender with a few different power choices.

You can change Feats and Enhancements but not classes or races just like every other MMO. You want to change those you have to re-roll just like in other MMOs. ;)

Thrudh
06-25-2007, 01:15 PM
I haven't done the numbers, but how about a bard/rogue, or even pure bard who wants to do some melee? Won't human be preferable to drow now?

Maybe for a pure bard....

Bard/Rogue I know something about...

Drow rocks for that combo, because of the race bonuses to Dex, Int, AND Cha... all three of which are very important to a Bard/Rogue...

The skill boost from the human would be nice... but you get static spot/search enhancements from the Drow race, and a smaller skill boost from the Rogue levels... so slightly less powerful, but for a lot less APs.

However, the extra damage and saves boosts from a human would be nice for a melee Bard/Rogue... With my own songs up, I don't have a lot of problems with hitting.

This change definitely makes human a possibility... which is exactly what Turbine was shooting for...

Cinwulf
06-25-2007, 01:20 PM
True, regen was picked on alot in CoH but even so the changes were not so much that most were ready to delete them, regen still outlasts most scrappers. And they get respecs galore in CoH. They have freespecs, reward respecs, and trial for respecs.

Respecs have only helped CoH imo, I have some characters who never respeced and still have them in credit, others have used almost all of them. The good thing about respecs is instead of wasting my time I could salvage the time I spent on that character if I wanted. Most of the respecs were used becasue of changes dev's made to that class. Some of them were used just for the heck of it and I wanted to try something different without a huge investment in time. So should it be in DDO imo :)

VonBek
06-25-2007, 01:27 PM
I come at things from a metagame perspective, because I do so much build engineering.

I didn't say this is unbalancing to the game; I do say it's unbalancing to the metagame and will change a LOT of builds and where they rank in the multiverse.

My problem is that practically every patch invalidates some builds and makes others stronger; maybe that's the goal, but man, in a MMO, that's just painful.

I'm not quite sure how to ask this:

If it stops changing, will it then be "balanced"? And, would this balance mean no build has a significant advantage over any other? If it never stops changing, does the role of build engineer change to adapt to, well..., constant change?

Sojourner
06-25-2007, 01:39 PM
I have to agree with Gol's post that "this just makes humans less gimp"

I can't see anyone rerolling because of this change.

Yes, being able to +5 Damage or +5 To-Hit boost on a barb 10x is nice. But, barbs are also so tight on APs that I can't see spending the points on it.

Yes as a fighter it would be nice to be able to pick Saves, To-Hits, or Damage. But, on many things you can get smaller bonuses that are always on versus these +5s that are 20 sec at a time.

There will probably be a few builds that come out with the "boost what you want when you want" theme. But, I don't think they are going to impact the general state of the game in any significant way.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 02:33 PM
You never have those situations where you go "Oh #@)($" and you're swarmed by 9 hard-hitting mofo's? Your human tank can go "Defensive Boost" and get to 70 AC; your Dwarf cannot.
1. A dwarf tank is either a fighter or paladin, and already can have an AC boost if he wants it.
2. The only "hard-hitting mofos" in DDO right now are ogres and trolls, against whom the dwarf has at least a passive +4 AC, and maybe more if you get enhancements.

These enhancements are already options in-game for fighters and paladins; yet does anyone say they're hugely powerful? Remember that these human boosts will not stack with the boosts available from classes, and also that activating a boost stops you from making attacks or other actions for 1.5 seconds. Quite frequently even on characters who have trained the boosts, it's not worth it to use them because of the attack you'd give up.


Yes, your Human Barb can now rage and hit the to-hit boost and attain to-hits that non-humans can only dream of. +5 to hit, btw, equates to +10 in Strength. For 20 secs, sure, but there it is.
I'm trying to think of any monster where I'd need a barbarian to get a massive boost to-hit, but I'm drawing a blank. It would be awesome in PvP, where the other players often run around with ACs nearly 60. But against monsters? It's just not needed.

Grenfell
06-25-2007, 02:39 PM
No, I don't have to admit that... Take CoH for example. How many changes has a /Regen or /Super Reflexes Scrapper gone through? The comments from them have frequently been, "It seems like I have to Respec every month or so."

Also, I know exactly why they don't allow Full Respecs. No one else does either. For full respecs you would need to change Races and Classes. MMOs do not allow this. Repec a Troll WoW Hunter and you have a Troll WoW Hunter with different skills. Respec an Empathy/Rad Defender in CoH you have an Empathy/Red Defender with a few different power choices.

You can change Feats and Enhancements but not classes or races just like every other MMO. You want to change those you have to re-roll just like in other MMOs. ;)

I'll settle for skill respecs for the time being. :)

And class respecs is definitely something Turbine should look at if they're going to keep on "fluxing" as you put it.

I don't know CoH, but I'm pretty sure you can't multiclass in WoW. DDO "class" is IMHO, the combination of all of the classes that went into the character. With every fundamental change, they need to look at that.

As to the specific topic of HV and whether it represents a sweeping change or not... we'll see, and time will tell, etc. :D

I still stand by my point about system stability.

/gren

CSFurious
06-25-2007, 02:43 PM
anything that makes this game a little less

"Dwarves & Drow Online" sounds good to me

Impaqt
06-25-2007, 02:49 PM
Hmmm.. I just changed my mind... a 57 AC while TWFing could be very iteresting..... 37 UMD..... +24 TO Damage.... 36/40/28 Saves.... +40 To Hit First Swing..... And have Full Rogue Skills.....

The New Human Versatility could resurect Batman.

Dragonhyde
06-25-2007, 02:56 PM
So you are giving humans back some of hv...now how about fixing the halfling luck enhancement to where it is somewhere near what it was.;) As for needing to be human to fight with a pure bard...eh not going to reroll either my halfling or drow bards just to get an enhancement:D But good luck to those who do.:)

Gol
06-25-2007, 03:00 PM
Hmmm.. I just changed my mind... a 57 AC while TWFing could be very iteresting..... 37 UMD..... +24 TO Damage.... 36/40/28 Saves.... +40 To Hit First Swing..... And have Full Rogue Skills.....

The New Human Versatility could resurect Batman.
I've mentally replaced the Batman build with my latest revision of the Ravi build. +50 Search/Disable without any boosts, mid 40s AC, 11 Cleric casting levels...

JosephKell
06-25-2007, 03:04 PM
Grenfell's going to have a heart attack when Half-Orcs are introduced to the game. Especially since a lot of people will already have the 32 pt favor when they are added, so they can immediately make 32 pt Half-Orcs!

Dwarves are awesome and all, but the +2 Str (for -2 Int and Cha, boo-who) instead of +2 Con (For -2 Cha) is gonna be very nice for a lot of Barbarians and Fighters (Fighters with 6 Int get the same number of skill points are Fighters with 8 Int!).

I for one would love to see how Half-Elves are balanced cause they're gonna suck (humans without a bonus feat that get +2 on Diplomacy and +2 gather information--not implimented--and +1 on listen/search/spot, and immunity to sleep *twirls finger in a mock white flag*). They're gonna need more enhancement love than humans.

Then wait for the Kalashtar and Psionics (just kidding, they probably won't ever add Psionics).

-JK

Mercules
06-25-2007, 03:08 PM
I'll settle for skill respecs for the time being. :)

And class respecs is definitely something Turbine should look at if they're going to keep on "fluxing" as you put it.

I don't know CoH, but I'm pretty sure you can't multiclass in WoW. DDO "class" is IMHO, the combination of all of the classes that went into the character. With every fundamental change, they need to look at that.


That is the point. You can't change your class choices in most other MMOs. They have about as much "respec" as DDO does. In CoH you can't change your Archtype(class) or even the two power sets you chose, just the powers in those main power sets and your variable powersets you can choose powers from later on. In WoW you can't change your classes.

If DDO allows respecs that allow you to redo your class choices/stats there is now no reason to make a new character. Just take your level 14 Fighter and turn him into a level 14 Wizard. Even if they lock down your first class choice, choose something people often splash like Rogue or Paladin. Now you can do the Rog1/Wiz13 or the Rog2/Ftr12 or Rog2/Pal12.

Skills would be nice... stats might be good so that as we go to add in or remove a given enhancement we don't have to reroll to hit the prerequisite.

Mercules
06-25-2007, 03:10 PM
Then wait for the Kalashtar and Psionics (just kidding, they probably won't ever add Psionics).

-JK

Which is a shame. When I heard DDO was using Eberron as a setting I thought I would FINALLY get to play a Psychic Warrior or Psion. I have several great concepts for them including a Psychic Warrior that is very hard to kill and can help heal others.

sigtrent
06-25-2007, 03:59 PM
Meta game was meant to change. What is the point of it otherwise, you master it and you are done forever?

As a "build engineer" I'm greatfull for the chance to further exercise my skills and adapt to new and interesting options. I have no intereste in maintaining any particular build configuration as the all time champion of this or that game mechanic.

I just don't get folks who make a character and think "aha I've achieved perfection! Wait, oh god no! Someone else has +1 jump over me! Dooom!!! I'll never jump again!"

To me it sounds like a good addition and I could care lessa bout maintaining any kind of eternal purity or relative superiority of my builds, I'll just make new builds.

(I must add that for me, there is no way I have time to actualy make half the builds I design, I have my Characters, which are far more than just "builds" and any flaws they may have are part of what makes them interesting and challenging to play.)

Solik
06-25-2007, 04:12 PM
I have no doubts that for the (very small) subset of players whose primary purpose in playing is to design the absolute most powerful character possible for a given architype that this represents a change to character builds, which will then be popularized on the forums, and potentially generating a small change in popularity of builds present in the game.

Under no circumstances should this be confused with a "fundamental" change in the game. Mountains and molehills and all that.

katanaflame
06-25-2007, 04:33 PM
is +5 to any of these worth 10 ap when its for 20 sec at a time.

I can only speak for my self here if it stacks with everything but another boost yes I feel it is ie a +4 restance item and +5 saves boost= +9 to saves its good for beholders

but If you have a huge list f stuff it dose not stack with no
ie +5 to ac dose not stack with sheild,sheild faith,barkskin,or any of the goodie items

MysticTheurge
06-25-2007, 04:34 PM
I just don't get it.

If this is a change to the "fundamental game mechanic" then you're basically asking them to never:

Add new enhancements (that are useful)
Add new feats (that are useful)
Add new classes
Add new races
Add pretty much anything.

I can see how you almost have an argument here that they're changing HV instead of adding something new, but seriously. Shouldn't this have been two weeks ago when the changed the Toughness enhancements? Or is that not a problem because it doesn't actually adjust the metagame at all, it just makes the already-overpowered Dwarves even more overpowered?

I just can't buy the logic that further screwing the game in the directions that it's already screwed is ok, but adding some usefulness to what was widely agreed to be a crappy enhancement is bad.

Impaqt
06-25-2007, 04:50 PM
is +5 to any of these worth 10 ap when its for 20 sec at a time.

I can only speak for my self here if it stacks with everything but another boost yes I feel it is ie a +4 restance item and +5 saves boost= +9 to saves its good for beholders

but If you have a huge list f stuff it dose not stack with no
ie +5 to ac dose not stack with sheild,sheild faith,barkskin,or any of the goodie items

Track record indicates that Boosts stack with Every static item inthe game..... Sheilds, Potions, Spells......

So if you sitting at
10/10/10 Base saves (Just an Example)
5/5/5 Kardins Eye Resistance Trinket
4/4/4 Greater Heroism
2/2/2 Recitation
5/5/5 Human Versatility Save Boost
------
26/26/26

All That would stack... :)

Club'in
06-25-2007, 05:28 PM
I can't see anyone rerolling because of this change.



I'm definitely rerolling. But I'm only level 3...:p

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 05:37 PM
I have no doubts that for the (very small) subset of players whose primary purpose in playing is to design the absolute most powerful character possible for a given architype that this represents a change to character builds
There is actually a good reason to doubt that 5x uses of a 20-second bonus will amount to even that kind of change. A "tank who can burst to great AC for 100 seconds per rest" is not nearly a popular architype.

QuantumFX
06-25-2007, 06:55 PM
For one example - any Dwarven defensive tank just took a large hammer to the head

I'm sure they can take it. They still get the equivalent to a free Greater False Life item in this next patch.

They still have the most bizzare, poorly thought out racial enhancement chains in the game. They still have enhancements that are better than the pure classed fighter equivalent. Turbine still ignores the fact that there are more favored weapons for dwarves than just axes.


Also, I know exactly why they don't allow Full Respecs. No one else does either.

Dude you seriously need to edit this... :)


Repec a Troll WoW Hunter and you have a Troll WoW Hunter with different skills.

If you could do this in DDO then Turbine could make a lot of the pro-respec people happy.

MysticTheurge
06-25-2007, 08:01 PM
Dude you seriously need to edit this... :)

He's saying he knows why Turbine (they) doesn't offer full respec. Because no other MMO (one else) offers full respec (does [it]) either.


If you could do this in DDO then Turbine could make a lot of the pro-respec people happy.

No, cause as soon as "Skill Respec" was done, they'd turn around and ask for Stat Respec or Class Respec or Race Respec.

I mean honestly, it's not like the Feat and Enhancement respec systems have slowed down the complaints at all.

Gimpster
06-25-2007, 08:23 PM
I mean honestly, it's not like the Feat and Enhancement respec systems have slowed down the complaints at all.
Nope. They seriously have.

If it weren't possible to respec feats there would be a LOT more complaints right now. In fact, the complaints would be so strident and continual that it would be nearly impossible for Turbine to not have acquiesed by now and added feat respec, if they hadn't already.

Just imagine if all those characters who took Improved Trip and Stunning Blow back when you had character level added to the DC were still stuck with it. Or if it had been impossible to get Dragonmarks without rerolling. Etc... the complaints would be everywhere.

QuantumFX
06-25-2007, 08:24 PM
He's saying he knows why Turbine (they) doesn't offer full respec. Because no other MMO (one else) offers full respec (does [it]) either.

That's why he should edit it. It's unclear.


No, cause as soon as "Skill Respec" was done, they'd turn around and ask for Stat Respec or Class Respec or Race Respec.

So a slippery slope argument will help the discussion?


I mean honestly, it's not like the Feat and Enhancement respec systems have slowed down the complaints at all.

Feats and enhancements aren't the fundamentals of a character. They're the icing. P&P has the feat/spell respec system in place and a total character respec isn't unheard of. (MT you can't be that old to not remember the AD&D 2.0 to D&D 3.0 conversion.)

Emili
06-25-2007, 09:43 PM
I really doubt many builds can afford 10 aps in 20 sec/ 5x rest boosts to base their build around...

Do you know how many times I've used fighter attack boosts in the last few months? Zero, want to know why? 1.5 seconds where I could be swinging to begin with... people do not wait for you to boost into battle nor does boosting in battle help significantly...People do not wait around for you to get your boosts ready in a game which is fast paced.

I do not forsee many tanks working off this nor many dps melee builds. I agree the Human rogue and possibly the bards may be able to fit this in. They already skewed racial enhancements making Dwarf and WF more verisitile fighter and barbarian builds than humans... so they throw a bone to humans a little. What is surprising is in the world of Eberon where house d'Denieth is supposively the greatest military power a Human comes up short in it's versitility as a melee class. In all but Pally... I can build a more competent melee class in Dwarf or WF... human melee is a harder build than a dwarven melee and for a dwarf to complain about a 20 second boost to me seems ridiculus. You want versitile melee Dwarf and WF enhancements make it easy... Con enhancements, AC enhancements Attack enhancements, damage enhanacements... and you complain about a boost which puts them +2.5 above your own in one attribute for 20 whole seconds? Let's not take into account your dwarf can have +3 better ac, 30 more hp, +2 more to-hit and +2 more damage output 24/7 on the average.

The human barbarian looking for max dps is going to spend the points in rage, the human fighter who is still at a loss in crappy fighter enhancements may take it in place of fighter actions boosts (you know I only have those cause there are nothing else to really help a non-dwarf fighter in that area). I mean seriously - Fighter armour mastery, Fighter strength, Critical accuracy and flanking mastery ... the rest as pertaining to fighting (the classes supposed forte) do not go very far. Personally I think it's about time they put some reason to put HV back into the game as a viable option yet I still believe it to be too little for most builds given the other enhancements available.

QuantumFX
06-26-2007, 12:43 AM
I really doubt many builds can afford 10 aps in 20 sec/ 5x rest boosts to base their build around...

Action boosts are like spring attack. Some people have the ability to use them other people don't have the tactical mindset to make it work for them.

This is a nice boost but only covers 1/4 of the ground needed to bring humans in line with the munchkinized enhancement chains that dwarves have available to them. (Dragonmark based enhancements like the ones suggested by MT a while back, Giving all armor wearing classes a variant of Armor mastery and switching the Dwarven and fighter tactics chains would complete the job.)

After that's done the devs would have to get elves and halflings a whole lot of attention.

Shecky
06-26-2007, 05:59 AM
Action boosts are like spring attack. Some people have the ability to use them other people don't have the tactical mindset to make it work for them.

This is a nice boost but only covers 1/4 of the ground needed to bring humans in line with the munchkinized enhancement chains that dwarves have available to them. (Dragonmark based enhancements like the ones suggested by MT a while back, Giving all armor wearing classes a variant of Armor mastery and switching the Dwarven and fighter tactics chains would complete the job.)

After that's done the devs would have to get elves and halflings a whole lot of attention.

News flash: even in PnP, without all the "munchkinized enhancement chains" and such offered by DDO, dwarves are STILL the master (PHB) race. ;)

Olaff
06-26-2007, 06:54 AM
is +5 to any of these worth 10 ap when its for 20 sec at a time.

Boosts pretty much stack with everything - at least, I know for a fact that the skill boost component does. I can't see where the rest would not follow suit, because this change would be rendered moot if they did not.

And, in answer to your question... yes, +5 to *whatever* is worth it. Christov (see sig) uses HV instead of a class-based skill boost, because he gets an extra +1 out of it. Now he'll be able to use those skill boosts he isn't using on traps (and there are many quests where this is so) and use them for other things. Turtling, for example. :)

IMO what I'm really looking forward to is the ability to use the Elemental Empathy now... and I might even try to figure out how to fit Vermin Empathy in, as well. That's iffy, though.

Sue_Dark
06-26-2007, 07:20 AM
About Dwarven Tank shaking, I don't.

Yuck.... Dont shake the dorfs! They might spill their ale!

Wulf_Ratbane
06-26-2007, 07:34 AM
Just imagine if all those characters who took Improved Trip and Stunning Blow back when you had character level added to the DC were still stuck with it.

Stuck with it?

Are you kidding me?

Emili
06-26-2007, 08:31 AM
Action boosts are like spring attack. Some people have the ability to use them other people don't have the tactical mindset to make it work for them.

This is a nice boost but only covers 1/4 of the ground needed to bring humans in line with the munchkinized enhancement chains that dwarves have available to them. (Dragonmark based enhancements like the ones suggested by MT a while back, Giving all armor wearing classes a variant of Armor mastery and switching the Dwarven and fighter tactics chains would complete the job.)

After that's done the devs would have to get elves and halflings a whole lot of attention.

I use my current boosts under extreme condition ... ie.) an encouter which is not going well, etc... Why? five 20 sec boost do not go very far due to shear numbers of mob. These are not like active feats which can be spammed constantly during each and every encounter. They're like laying down a trump card (and a second guess one) when you foresee you need that extra push of adeline.

How many fighters currently use the attack, haste and ac boosts with each encounter?

How many pallys use the attack, saves and ac boosts with each encounter?

How many barbs use the damage, dr and sprint boosts with each encounter?

Does 1:20 seconds between shrines go that far when the average mob encounter far exceed 10 fold?

Skill wise the boosts are important, tactically speaking they're a reach when need arise as the use of them is the cost of not having them for the next encounter.

Grenfell
06-26-2007, 08:37 AM
I really doubt many builds can afford 10 aps in 20 sec/ 5x rest boosts to base their build around...

Do you know how many times I've used fighter attack boosts in the last few months? Zero, want to know why? 1.5 seconds where I could be swinging to begin with... people do not wait for you to boost into battle nor does boosting in battle help significantly...People do not wait around for you to get your boosts ready in a game which is fast paced.

Oh, I agree about Fighter Attack Boost.

But I know I'm looking for ways to fit in the 10 AP's for this on any human I have.

Reason being that FAB only boosts attack. It's one dimensional, and not really worth the AP spent. The new HV gives me the ability to boost what I need, when I need it. Attack if I'm having issues landing hits, damage if I'm not, saves if I need that, AC if I'm getting hammered, or skills if I need to UMD a Raise Dead scroll. Not the greatest thing in the world, mind you, but I think everyone is underestimating what impact this could have.

I have mostly dwarven fighter types, so I'm glad the Master Race remains. But this opens the door for Humans in other areas. We'll see how it plays out.

/gren

Dane_McArdy
06-26-2007, 08:46 AM
The only way dwarves take a hit with this is if a player believes the only way to play the game is to make all toons very specific to how it should be played. If you play under that belief, that the game can only be won by doing that, then nothing will ever change your mind.

You will always want to have the best at a particular thing, and if the continual growth and tweaking of the game changes who can do that, you are going to see nerf.

The game content is not built where it can only be defeated if you have toons built a certain way.

Both are perfectly viable toons to which set against the content of the game.

Emili
06-26-2007, 08:51 AM
News flash: even in PnP, without all the "munchkinized enhancement chains" and such offered by DDO, dwarves are STILL the master (PHB) race. ;)

LOL, You must be kidding, Dwarves were never a master race in the player handbook:p The PHB balanced every race Humans have an extra feat and skill to compensate for dwarven racial abilities, elves have racial abilities as do halflings, etc... only in DDO where turbine went wild with dwarven enhancements have dwarves got such a wide array of choice to customize them into a their current versitility.

Shecky
06-26-2007, 08:52 AM
Stuck with it?

Are you kidding me?

Heh. Tactical fighting FTW!

Shecky
06-26-2007, 08:54 AM
LOL, You must be kidding, Dwarves were never a master race in the player handbook:p The PHB balanced every race Humans have an extra feat and skill to compensate for dwarven racial abilities, elves have racial abilities as do halflings, etc... only in DDO where turbine went wild with dwarven enhancements have got such a wide array of bilities to customize them into a their current versitility.

Hoo boy - built-in higher saves vs. spells, stability, racial weapon familiarity, etc.? Well... for the fighter class, they're overall the most broadly suited. Even on the other classes... but those higher spell saves are SO good...

Olaff
06-26-2007, 09:09 AM
I think what you'll find, Gren, is that HV is more appropriate for a Human Hybrid build than for a Human Pure build... except maybe for a Rogue, and possibly for a Bard or a Ranger.

Certainly there will be pure-class builds that make use of this, but I think it likely they'll be few and far between. Anyone that uses specific boosts now is not likely to respec their enhancements just to make use of HV, because this change isn't going to return HV to its previous "all humans must take" status, and there are certain boosts that are not becoming part of the new HV (Barb's DR boost, for one).

EDIT: I suspect Human Battleclerics and Battlemages will find it particularly helpful, however. :)

Emili
06-26-2007, 09:22 AM
Hoo boy - built-in higher saves vs. spells, stability, racial weapon familiarity, etc.? Well... for the fighter class, they're overall the most broadly suited. Even on the other classes... but those higher spell saves are SO good...

Plus the fact they're a feat behind and far less skilled than a human where skills account for much more, elves have saves and immunities too and a wide range of weapons in their knowledge? Where weapon size and dimensions matter... where movement speeds differ and a dwarf is 2/3rds the speed of another medium creature? Where initiative and movement speeds determines first blows and actions? Have you forgotten what occurs within a round? There is no doubt dwarves make a pretty good melee in PnP but the fact is any other race in PnP does just as well in the class. No the races in the PHB are pretty well balanced.

Gol
06-26-2007, 09:58 AM
Plus the fact they're a feat behind and far less skilled than a human where skills account for much more, elves have saves and immunities too and a wide range of weapons in their knowledge? Where weapon size and dimensions matter... where movement speeds differ and a dwarf is 2/3rds the speed of another medium creature? Where initiative and movement speeds determines first blows and actions? Have you forgotten what occurs within a round? There is no doubt dwarves make a pretty good melee in PnP but the fact is any other race in PnP does just as well in the class. No the races in the PHB are pretty well balanced.
Dwarves and Half-Orcs are the only 2 PHB races with Darkvision. Oh, how I wish they'd implement that in DDO. That's worth 2 feats for a Human.

Naso24
06-26-2007, 11:10 AM
My human paladin 10 / sorcerer 1 / cleric 3 will be taking advantage of this, at least partially. I will not be giving up 10 APs, but I may give up 6. I currently am using a couple of the cheap action boosts.

This change is not a huge benefit for humans. It partially mitigates the losses when HV was changed not too long ago, which made me seldom play my human character.

My character design is not uber. This was my first character. The original loss of HV was a big hit. This will add a lot of versatility back to a character that is designed on versatility.

JayDubya
06-26-2007, 11:37 AM
I think what you'll find, Gren, is that HV is more appropriate for a Human Hybrid build than for a Human Pure build... except maybe for a Rogue, and possibly for a Bard or a Ranger.

Heh, my human rogue/ranger/fighter 3/3/3 will gratefully accept this opportunity to
a) Use the skill boost when I'm needed as a rogue
b) Use the to-hit boost or damage boost when I'm going after hard to hit/high hp mobs
c) Use the save boost when I'm going after a beholder or a difficult caster

QuantumFX
06-26-2007, 11:45 AM
News flash: even in PnP, without all the "munchkinized enhancement chains" and such offered by DDO, dwarves are STILL the master (PHB) race. ;)

<news ticker sound>

This just in... P&P races are much more balanced than their DDO equivalants...

Munchkinized enhancement chains are the norm for DDO dwarves and the exception for every other starting race... the HV adjustment is only big news because the devs have been ignoring every other race for months...

In P&P humans are able to take prestige classes sooner than dwarves...

In P&P feat chains are also wrth taking and Humans also can get to the end of feat chains sooner...

In P&P skills matter and Humans also get more skill points.

</news ticker sound> :)

QuantumFX
06-26-2007, 11:51 AM
I use my current boosts under extreme condition ... ie.) an encouter which is not going well, etc... Why? five 20 sec boost do not go very far due to shear numbers of mob. These are not like active feats which can be spammed constantly during each and every encounter. They're like laying down a trump card (and a second guess one) when you foresee you need that extra push of adeline.

How many fighters currently use the attack, haste and ac boosts with each encounter?

How many pallys use the attack, saves and ac boosts with each encounter?

How many barbs use the damage, dr and sprint boosts with each encounter?

Does 1:20 seconds between shrines go that far when the average mob encounter far exceed 10 fold?

Skill wise the boosts are important, tactically speaking they're a reach when need arise as the use of them is the cost of not having them for the next encounter.

All the good players I know use action boost and have a clue as to when to use it. Like i said, it takes a certain mindset to use it properly. If I could respec the stats on my human ranger/rogue I'd definately keep it. (He has extra ranger's action boost: skills which, currently, increases the pool of HV uses as well.) On some quests having a lot of skill boosts is useful and having the ability to use it for other stuff in non-skill testing quests is a very welcome addition.

Olaff
06-26-2007, 12:37 PM
Heh, my human rogue/ranger/fighter 3/3/3 will gratefully accept this opportunity to
a) Use the skill boost when I'm needed as a rogue
b) Use the to-hit boost or damage boost when I'm going after hard to hit/high hp mobs
c) Use the save boost when I'm going after a beholder or a difficult caster

Exactly my point. Christov (see sig) will be making use of it in the same fashion.

Shecky
06-26-2007, 01:21 PM
<news ticker sound>

This just in... P&P races are much more balanced than their DDO equivalants...

Munchkinized enhancement chains are the norm for DDO dwarves and the exception for every other starting race... the HV adjustment is only big news because the devs have been ignoring every other race for months...

In P&P humans are able to take prestige classes sooner than dwarves...

In P&P feat chains are also wrth taking and Humans also can get to the end of feat chains sooner...

In P&P skills matter and Humans also get more skill points.

</news ticker sound> :)

Step one: find a sense of humor.
Step two: insert sense of humor.
Step three: get joke. :p :D

Remember, "can" and "should" are NOT synonymous. PnP dwarves start out ahead, which is why humans GET that extra feat. Silly humans. :D

QuantumFX
06-26-2007, 02:13 PM
Step one: find a sense of humor.
Step two: insert sense of humor.
Step three: get joke. :p :D

Remember, "can" and "should" are NOT synonymous. PnP dwarves start out ahead, which is why humans GET that extra feat. Silly humans. :D

I got the joke that's why I included the news ticker theatrics and the smiley at the end. :)

Now for the serious discussion. The human gets the feat to go in any direction they choose. The dwarf has the bonuses chosen for him so they're a smige more powerful. In P&P your race matters a whole lot less than it does here in DDO and that's the sad part about all this.

Shecky
06-26-2007, 02:17 PM
I got the joke that's why I included the news ticker theatrics and the smiley at the end. :)

Now for the serious discussion. The human gets the feat to go in any direction they choose. The dwarf has the bonuses chosen for him so they're a smige more powerful. In P&P your race matters a whole lot less than it does here in DDO and that's the sad part about all this.

Yup. I just can't give up built–in darkvision, +4 saves vs. spell, stonecunning, stability, etc. I simply don't see any way to beat that.

QuantumFX
06-26-2007, 02:57 PM
Yup. I just can't give up built–in darkvision, +4 saves vs. spell, stonecunning, stability, etc. I simply don't see any way to beat that.

Can't help ya there man. For me it's all about getting to where I want to be in the least amount of time and humans excel at that.

Shecky
06-26-2007, 07:21 PM
Can't help ya there man. For me it's all about getting to where I want to be in the least amount of time and humans excel at that.

And that's where this game is so rich - where one person wants to get and where another person wants to get can be entirely different or so subtly different that practically no one can discern between them, yet they both can get to where they want to get (with the caveat of You Can't Have Everything, of course).

QuantumFX
06-26-2007, 10:35 PM
And that's where this game is so rich - where one person wants to get and where another person wants to get can be entirely different or so subtly different that practically no one can discern between them, yet they both can get to where they want to get (with the caveat of You Can't Have Everything, of course).

Agreed, that's why I have such a problem with dwarves getting benefits in every patch and the devs telling everyone else to go frak themselves. The truly frustrating part is that this is all going to lead to a nerf for dwarves rather than taking some time to make other races worth playing (statistics wise).

EightyFour
06-27-2007, 12:38 AM
If there is a pop up box you would only have to see it once see you would be able to throw the options into your hotbar.

Well if that works than it works for me.

Also would like to add that once I re read it I see that HV will now be on a different timer and counter than the ranger and rogue skill boosts, meaning that it's going to cost more but Humans now get an additional +5 to search. And in some way this makes up for the fact that Drow, Elves, and Dwarves were the only one's that could hit high rogue skills.

But this is some what of a fix so that Humans can reach those higher numbers. So they look as though they stack with rogue skill boost, putting Human rogues back in the game some what.

At a great cost, but still, it's possiable to hit a +5 for 20 seconds where the other races only get +4 for what it seems is the same cost. So it's a point higher, the down side being you can only use it 5 times per rest for 20 seconds.

Shecky
06-27-2007, 05:40 AM
Agreed, that's why I have such a problem with dwarves getting benefits in every patch and the devs telling everyone else to go frak themselves. The truly frustrating part is that this is all going to lead to a nerf for dwarves rather than taking some time to make other races worth playing (statistics wise).

We are Dwarf. Resistance is futile. We will assimilate the lower races. You will submit to us.

:D

In all seriousness, if people would quit complaining about dwarves (it's not like the other races are hurt at all by dwarves' innate superiority! :) ), then dwarves won't get nerfed. If dwarves do get nerfed, I'm going to Limburger the house of everyone who said that dwarves are overpowered.

Taur
06-27-2007, 06:19 AM
+5 to hit, btw, equates to +10 in Strength.

no it doesn't. you're forgetting the +5 damage that is also associated with the strength mod.

quite frankly, when my dwarf barb gets surrounded by 7-8 mobs, i usually either equip my paralyzer and start spamming cleave, greatcleave or shield-block and let the bramble casters and my lightning guard do the work for me. that's way more effective of a tactic than hitting a still watered down ac buff since AC is pretty much useless in this game. DR is the way to go.

Olaff
06-27-2007, 07:10 AM
Well if that works than it works for me.

Also would like to add that once I re read it I see that HV will now be on a different timer and counter than the ranger and rogue skill boosts, meaning that it's going to cost more but Humans now get an additional +5 to search. And in some way this makes up for the fact that Drow, Elves, and Dwarves were the only one's that could hit high rogue skills.

But this is some what of a fix so that Humans can reach those higher numbers. So they look as though they stack with rogue skill boost, putting Human rogues back in the game some what.

At a great cost, but still, it's possiable to hit a +5 for 20 seconds where the other races only get +4 for what it seems is the same cost. So it's a point higher, the down side being you can only use it 5 times per rest for 20 seconds.


Not quite. All boosts share the same 30-second cooldown timer, meaning you can have only one active at a time. However, HV and the various class boosts do not share the same counter, meaning you can hit Ranger Skill Boost 5 times, and still have uses left of HV.

Still, for a Human Ranger or Rogue, it's now more effective to take HV instead of the Ranger or Rogue skill boost, simply because HV is more...well, versatile. :)

Shecky
06-27-2007, 08:33 AM
no it doesn't. you're forgetting the +5 damage that is also associated with the strength mod.

quite frankly, when my dwarf barb gets surrounded by 7-8 mobs, i usually either equip my paralyzer and start spamming cleave, greatcleave or shield-block and let the bramble casters and my lightning guard do the work for me. that's way more effective of a tactic than hitting a still watered down ac buff since AC is pretty much useless in this game. DR is the way to go.

You speak soothly. My "off main" character managed to get the Stonemeld Plate off Velah; I had heard so much scorn heaped on this armor that I thought it was junk. But the more I thought about it, the more I realized:

1) For the monsters where AC does matter (i.e., the majority of the non-boss/non-miniboss critters even on elite), the +4 instead of +5 is not a huge, gamebreaking drop.
2) For the monsters where your AC means diddly squat, that DR of 5/- is excellent. Doesn't mean you escape damage, but the damage done to you over time doesn't add up to nearly as much.
3) Revisiting #1, if/when those guys DO hit, they also face the DR 5/-.

I'm really starting to reconsider a lot of my armor and shields now...

EightyFour
06-27-2007, 11:38 AM
Not quite. All boosts share the same 30-second cooldown timer, meaning you can have only one active at a time. However, HV and the various class boosts do not share the same counter, meaning you can hit Ranger Skill Boost 5 times, and still have uses left of HV.

Still, for a Human Ranger or Rogue, it's now more effective to take HV instead of the Ranger or Rogue skill boost, simply because HV is more...well, versatile. :)

Well if that's the way it is going to work than I guess it's just a waste of programming and I return to my original statement of every time I see this list it seems that Turbine is just spinning it's wheel's looking like it's doing something.

And the state of the game just gets worse and worse.

How about returning HV to the way it was rather than setting up wastes like this.

If not, well than well done on giving back some of what was taken away.

Shrazkil
06-27-2007, 11:41 AM
All these boosts are available under different classes, so it isn't going to change any numbers. Also, you can still only use one boost at a time, so a human paladin can't boost his AC with both at the same time. No, this isn't going to change the game at all. In fact, I think it is only a minor improvement to humans at best.

Really? so a barbarian gets a +5 attack boost?

Mad_Bombardier
06-27-2007, 12:21 PM
Really? so a barbarian gets a +5 attack boost?No, but a Fighter does.

QuantumFX
06-27-2007, 06:03 PM
We are Dwarf. Resistance is futile. We will assimilate the lower races. You will submit to us.

:D

In all seriousness, if people would quit complaining about dwarves (it's not like the other races are hurt at all by dwarves' innate superiority! :) ), then dwarves won't get nerfed. If dwarves do get nerfed, I'm going to Limburger the house of everyone who said that dwarves are overpowered.

Unfortunately the tounge in cheek part of your response illustrates the problem. You should have statistical reasons for people to play each race with each class. Otherwise we wind up with yet another WoW clone.

Also, If dwarves get nerfed you need to go TP/egg/cheese/flaming **** in a bag the people really responsible. The dev responsible for wasting all of his time making enhancements for one race. We would be much better off with parity between the races than a nerf of one.

Maldini
06-28-2007, 01:11 AM
From the 6/25 WDA:



Okay, this is cool and all but... is there any chance we'll get to some stability in the game system in the next couple of months?

It's great for us build engineers to have more options to play with, but things like this really change the game system dramatically.

For one example - any Dwarven defensive tank just took a large hammer to the head, unless I'm very mistaken about how things work.

I'm pretty sure Human Barbarians now dominate the genre as well.

It's cool to have new stuff with every patch, but could you let us know when you're done with the basic game mechanics and system so we'll know what the expect from DDO?

Thanks,

/gren


This change is nice. It seems every time a new change comes out, my original tanks get better and more versatile.

Olaff
06-28-2007, 05:32 AM
Well if that's the way it is going to work than I guess it's just a waste of programming and I return to my original statement of every time I see this list it seems that Turbine is just spinning it's wheel's looking like it's doing something.

And the state of the game just gets worse and worse.

How about returning HV to the way it was rather than setting up wastes like this.

If not, well than well done on giving back some of what was taken away.

It won't (and shouldn't) go back to the way it was, because "the way it was" was far overpowered. I don't see this as a waste of programming, because it (a) makes HV a viable enhancement selection for characters that don't see it as such currently; and (b) makes HV an even more attractive choice for those characters that already chose it.

Shecky
06-28-2007, 05:58 AM
Unfortunately the tounge in cheek part of your response illustrates the problem. You should have statistical reasons for people to play each race with each class. Otherwise we wind up with yet another WoW clone.

That's not going to happen. There's a reason for the Favored Class description with every race - each race is best suited to a particular class, and each class has its "favorite" race or races. Just the way it is - dwarves have always ruled and will always rule. Period. :D


Also, If dwarves get nerfed you need to go TP/egg/cheese/flaming **** in a bag the people really responsible. The dev responsible for wasting all of his time making enhancements for one race. We would be much better off with parity between the races than a nerf of one.

Nah. The people responsible are the ones unreasonably complaining. Look at all the complaints about "unfair HV" for a long time before HV got the shaft. Look at all the complaints about "imbalance" that got Trip nerfed. Look at all the complaints about "overpowered" spells that got a lot of durations truncated. So on and so forth. And all of these were about a game where there's not supposed to BE any competition that would give rise to a "need" for "balance". People just want to complain about other people, and that's a tendency that's getting worse and worse - leave 'em alone, people.

MysticTheurge
06-28-2007, 06:55 AM
each race is best suited to a particular class

Maybe.


and each class has its "favorite" race or races. Just the way it is

No.

In D&D, there is no "Best race for fighter" or "Best race for wizard." What race you're going to choose will depend heavily on a number of factors that go far beyond which class you are.

Shecky
06-28-2007, 08:28 AM
Maybe.

Okay, will you grant that there is a tendency to be better suited to some classes than to others?


In D&D, there is no "Best race for fighter" or "Best race for wizard." What race you're going to choose will depend heavily on a number of factors that go far beyond which class you are.

See above. I should have been clearer (but that's what I get for assuming people know what I mean - duh!): all other things being equal, there are always some races that are better suited than others to being a certain class if you're making a build that is at least somewhat standard. Once you start to get innovative, all bets are off. Same goes for when you go for a particular specialization or for more generalization. I'm just talking about mainstream tendencies here.

EightyFour
06-29-2007, 10:44 AM
It won't (and shouldn't) go back to the way it was, because "the way it was" was far overpowered. I don't see this as a waste of programming, because it (a) makes HV a viable enhancement selection for characters that don't see it as such currently; and (b) makes HV an even more attractive choice for those characters that already chose it.

I won't(and should) go back to the way it was. So I mean that +4 search and the added +2 search for a total of +6 search you get as an elf or drow compared to the +0 search you get for going human.

If you are going to build a rogue you had better go dwarf, elf, or drow. Boy I wish I had known that before I built a character with HV. Which was only a +4 vs. +6 btw, the only diffrence was it was to all skills. I'm sure that everyone was happy that there swim skill got improved.

I don't see how this makes it a viable enhancement, if it stacks yes, that mean that they could help fix all the broken characters out there due to there nerf batting the s*** out of this game.

Also it doesn't make HV a more attractive choice because people were using it for skills. You can no longer use it that way because it's a ******** clicky now.

Everything that it gives you is c***, +5 non stackable AC, +5 non stackable attack, + 5 to saves, +5 non stackable damage, and +5 non stackable to skills.

So how are Human's more versitile, because they can become stronger for 20 seconds, there eye sight gets better for 20 seconds, because there white cell count go's up for 20 seconds.

It doesn't even make sense with the idea of HV, HV describes humans being able to handle several different tasks requiring different skills.

The fact is that the dev's screwed up and than they screwed the palyers and even though they are sorry, the sit and do nothing about it but spin there tires.

Here is my question to you Olaff, one, Do you play a Human character? and two, if you do have a Human character, How do you think this enhancement well make him better?

sabs
06-29-2007, 10:48 AM
Warforged make must better Arcane swordsmen than Dwarves do :)

a 9wiz/5 barb wf is significantly different from am 9cleric/5barb dwarf

Mercules
06-29-2007, 11:51 AM
The fact is that the dev's screwed up and than they screwed the palyers and even though they are sorry, the sit and do nothing about it but spin there tires.

Here is my question to you Olaff, one, Do you play a Human character? and two, if you do have a Human character, How do you think this enhancement well make him better?

The fact is the players screwed themselves, "What a wonderfully powerful Enhancement. I don't see why the Developers would ever consider changing it. Just because it replaces SEVERAL other enhancements and feats, doesn't mean it is broken." "WHAT! They changed HV? I never saw it coming!"

My Fighter used it because it was a replacement for, Armored Agility and the Fighter's enhancement for Intimidate. My Cleric almost took it so her Diplomacy, Concentration, and Healing went up.

In the current system it would make no sense. ONE skill boosted is 1,2,3,4 in cost, ONE. It would just be overpowered as a static boost. The only way it would fit would be if it allowed you to choose a single skill to boost similar to how the stat enhancements work for humans. Later on you could choose another one.

And to answer your question to Olaff, I play a Human Cleric. I am trying to figure out how to add this enhancement in somewhere. The various boosts would be handy for her in a great number of situation. I don't often go toe to toe with the mobs, but having a bonus to attack, defense, and such would be helpful. I have a crappy Ref save(even with Trapblast Goggle) and trying to get through traps on elite can be rough so a Save boost would be nice. The skill boost I am not so concerned about.

Zenako
06-29-2007, 12:20 PM
Well I have 2 active and had a third Human character. None of them were what I would call skill based so none of them had taken HV as an enhancement, since at the time you could only have up to 4 slots total. I had more useful choices for my Paly, Cleric and Sorc (rest his spirit). So personally the first change to HV was a non-issue, however it was also clear that it was overpowered compared to other enhancements at the time. It was a no-brainer for any human based skill based character. Like getting something on the order of 40-60 skill points for free (one enhancement slot). Nothing came close. So the revision bat came out. It looks like the change swung too far in the minds of many, and it now looks like the developers are adjusting again. Game balance is just that, keeping things balanced.

Right now you could put a good argument forth that the races vis-a-vis their enhancements are not balanced. That you have clearly preferred choices from a game mechanics point of view. That is not good game balance. In PnP there are a lot of factors that a DM can use to offset racial disparities in characters and experience earned and so forth. In DDO those kind of checks and balances are essentially absent (except for robot envy/hate).

Danekim
06-29-2007, 12:59 PM
"And.. the game changes again fundamentally "

LOL!. A little less drama please.
Somehow..I just dont think this changes the game fundamentally.
Its a buff to humans. Thats it. An optional one at that.

It doesnt diminish dwarves or any other race.

MtnLion
06-29-2007, 05:11 PM
...(Different HV boosts, such as skills and damage, should be on the same counter since they are just variations of the same basic boost)

Just a small point, here, why penalize a fighter/human that chooses these three boosts versus the original HV (skills) and the fighter AC boost/fighter attack boost? They should definitely be separate counters.

EightyFour
06-29-2007, 07:46 PM
The fact is the players screwed themselves, "What a wonderfully powerful Enhancement. I don't see why the Developers would ever consider changing it. Just because it replaces SEVERAL other enhancements and feats, doesn't mean it is broken." "WHAT! They changed HV? I never saw it coming!"

My Fighter used it because it was a replacement for, Armored Agility and the Fighter's enhancement for Intimidate. My Cleric almost took it so her Diplomacy, Concentration, and Healing went up.


The players screwed themselves? I have no idea how you got that one.
So am I required to predict the changes to DDO for the rest of the time that it is out?

And it dose not replace several other feats and enhancements, it makes them better than they are. Which I don't think is that bad a trade off for being Human.

Guess I'm just tired of building characters only to have them nerfed and than replaced with an entire new character that I have to level all over again only to have them nerfed again so I can build a new character and level them again. I'm just sick of leveling characters I've all ready run thru several quests to get them thru.

I refuse to re build another character, if it gets bad enough I can always leave, so that's always an option open to me.

I'm just sick and tired of being sick and tired of the nerf bat coming around every time I build a character.

I hate the grind, I only grind it out again when I've forgotten what the lower level quests are about so I can enjoy them again.

I just don't even care enough even more to debate this, the dev's well screw this game up enough and I'll get tired of it and take off.

Aladon
06-29-2007, 10:52 PM
It's cool to have new stuff with every patch, but could you let us know when you're done with the basic game mechanics and system so we'll know what the expect from DDO?
/gren

People play DDO for lots of reasons. Some people play for acquisition and maximum competence. Changes like this completely screw with them and their work. So I agree completely.

As to all you "Oh, this isn't a big deal" guys. You say'll that right up until you group with Gren or someone using his new HV build, then you'll want one too.


Nah. The people responsible are the ones unreasonably complaining. Look at all the complaints about "unfair HV" for a long time before HV got the shaft. Look at all the complaints about "imbalance" that got Trip nerfed. Look at all the complaints about "overpowered" spells that got a lot of durations truncated. So on and so forth. And all of these were about a game where there's not supposed to BE any competition that would give rise to a "need" for "balance". People just want to complain about other people, and that's a tendency that's getting worse and worse - leave 'em alone, people.

Truer words were never spoken.

Aladon

Olaff
06-30-2007, 07:59 AM
Here is my question to you Olaff, one, Do you play a Human character? and two, if you do have a Human character, How do you think this enhancement well make him better?

Maybe you should read my signature. That will answer your first question.... and possibly, if you stop to think about it, your second question as well.

But I'll answer your second question anyway, and in so doing indirectly answer your first:

I think one of my Human characters, who already has HV, will now be better off because HV is currently ONLY useful for skills. If I don't have a need to use skills during a quest, then HV does nothing for me in its current form. With its new capabilities, however, I can hit more often - or hit harder - or, if I'm already hitting so hard I'm drawing aggro, help me turtle up - or help me save more when I need it. And, on top of that, I can STILL use it for skills if I need to!

I think my other Human character, who does NOT already have HV, might take it. I'll have to see about that, though.

Olaff
06-30-2007, 08:02 AM
Just a small point, here, why penalize a fighter/human that chooses these three boosts versus the original HV (skills) and the fighter AC boost/fighter attack boost? They should definitely be separate counters.

Different skill boosts (such as the two you named) are indeed on separate counters - just not separate timers.

QuantumFX
06-30-2007, 01:20 PM
Different skill boosts (such as the two you named) are indeed on separate counters - just not separate timers.

Though, currently, (extra action boost: Whatever) will add to both counters. Hopefully that won't change. It's ALMOST enough for me to unretire a character of mine but not quite.

Olaff
06-30-2007, 01:23 PM
Though, currently, (extra action boost: Whatever) will add to both counters. Hopefully that won't change. It's ALMOST enough for me to unretire a character of mine but not quite.

I agree, that is a nice feature of the "extra action boost." Now if only there was one that applied to HV...

Dkmafia
07-01-2007, 11:45 PM
All these boosts are available under different classes, so it isn't going to change any numbers. Also, you can still only use one boost at a time, so a human paladin can't boost his AC with both at the same time. No, this isn't going to change the game at all. In fact, I think it is only a minor improvement to humans at best.

My human rogue became worhtless I had to reroll him and my human bard took a serious hit in functionality.. I may reroll him .. Thats serious to me. Human Vers, while arguably over powered, was the only reason to play a human. I have all drow now like everyone else, with the occasional dwarf.. Welcome to DDO .. Dungeons and Drow Online ..