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shins
06-23-2007, 11:34 PM
I understand you wanted to bring the spell more in line with pen and paper by giving it a touch range, but fellas lemme give you some insight, in pen and paper the mobs arent all hopped up on **** and moving around all crazy. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is getting the message "You must face your target" over and over and over again? At least give it some sort of range, doesnt need to be like PK or Finger, just a nice buffer zone to where i can comfortably cast it without praying the mob doesnt take a quarter of a step to the side or something.

Thanks in advance from one frustrated cleric.

Fetchi
06-24-2007, 12:10 AM
I completely agree!

Harbinder
06-24-2007, 12:37 AM
I protest this request. Dev's, you did a great job upgrading the AI. Some people will never be satisfied, don't cater to them.

Impaqt
06-24-2007, 12:46 AM
Hold Person, Soundburst, and Command/Greater Command are your friend when it comes to Slay Living... DOnt worry.... Destruction is right around the corner.

Ithrani
06-24-2007, 01:05 AM
Do you have any idea how frustrating it is getting the message "You must face your target" over and over and over again?

This I agree with, I am so sick of my SP going to waste because the aggro is on me and the mob is so close to me that I can't target him. Honestly Turbine can't you just make it where if the mobs is literally right on top of you every spell you cast on them can target them, even if they are a bit behind you.

Vox
06-24-2007, 01:46 AM
I protest this request. Dev's, you did a great job upgrading the AI. Some people will never be satisfied, don't cater to them.

This issue has *NOTHING* to do with the AI change, which by the way was a good job. This issue occured BEFORE the AI change, and has ALWAYS been an issue with Slay Living. The problem is that Slay Living uses the "view arc" of the character if you will, and ignores the ability of someone to reach to the side, or even behind them to "touch" someone.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable suggestion to, instead of removing the "view arc" restriction which is common to most spells as I understand it, request a slight increase in the range, so that it can be cast from a couple steps further back which should diminish the quantity of "missed" spells due to an irritating, and frequently erroneous error.

Vox

Vox
06-24-2007, 01:51 AM
This I agree with, I am so sick of my SP going to waste because the aggro is on me and the mob is so close to me that I can't target him. Honestly Turbine can't you just make it where if the mobs is literally right on top of you every spell you cast on them can target them, even if they are a bit behind you.

I disagree with this variation of a fix as I don't want the computer picking my target for me beyond the default of closest target via tab targetting. Additionally, it's a significant change to alter the "view arc" requirement for spell-casting, regardless of whether it would be more "accurate"

Vox

shins
06-24-2007, 01:51 AM
Hold Person, Soundburst, and Command/Greater Command are your friend when it comes to Slay Living... DOnt worry.... Destruction is right around the corner.

Thanks for pointing out my other spells, didnt know i had those. My point is, that i should be able to freely cast my spells with out worrying about some technical ********. This doesnt only apply to slay but to otto's dance as well and probably a few other spells i cant think of atm because you people that come in here and shoot down any decent suggestion **** me right the hell off.

SaberMonkey
06-24-2007, 02:25 AM
This issue definalty needs to be adressed.

Riggs
06-24-2007, 02:47 AM
Monsters can cast behind themselves. And above themselves.

I want to be able to cast like a monster. Also the +100 concentration checks too pls.

Vox
06-24-2007, 02:58 AM
Thanks for pointing out my other spells, didnt know i had those. My point is, that i should be able to freely cast my spells with out worrying about some technical ********. This doesnt only apply to slay but to otto's dance as well and probably a few other spells i cant think of atm because you people that come in here and shoot down any decent suggestion **** me right the hell off.

Dude... chill a little;) I think he was actually trying to be helpful. He didn't say it shouldn't be fixed, he was just trying to provide some alternatives. Course I could be wrong... people do tend to shoot stuff down a lot around here:)

Vox

Elfvyra
06-24-2007, 03:30 AM
WHAT??? You mean it has the same Touch Range as the Cure line of spells? ;)

EightyFour
06-24-2007, 03:42 AM
WHAT??? You mean it has the same Touch Range as the Cure line of spells? ;)
That would be nice, i hate this also when I waste 30 to 40 mana on a slay living and I get some error message, like you must be facing your target, sometimes when I am facing my target.

Plus it dosen't help that the cast time seems like 3 or 4 seconds in which case you can get smacked or your target can move out of the way and you have to rotate with them, and even if you do rotate with them, if it's not perfect than you get a failure due to not facing target.

So a small range fix to help this out would be nice, but I'm not going to die if it's not fixed.

I've excepted that the code has flaws, the planning that went into this game has flaws, and the people that built and run it have flaws. So when I become flawless, than I'll start getting a lot grumpier.

zombie_steve
06-24-2007, 05:25 AM
I've been playing mostly Clerics since I started, on my 4th one now moving him up to level 14. I love Clerics and as much as I would love to agree with the OP, I can not. Slay Living is fine the way it is. Use destruction or don't even bother with it.

Vox
06-24-2007, 05:37 AM
...I would love to agree with the OP, I can not. Slay Living is fine the way it is, if you don't like taking the chance of getting smacked around...

Did you /READ/ the OP? The concern is /NOT/ getting smacked around. It's an erroneous error message, that is frustrating, and not in line with the concept of touch range anyway.

Vox

Elfvyra
06-24-2007, 06:02 AM
I've been playing mostly Clerics since I started, on my 4th one now moving him up to level 14. I love Clerics and as much as I would love to agree with the OP, I can not. Slay Living is fine the way it is, if you don't like taking the chance of getting smacked around, use destruction or don't even bother with it.

Slay Living should have the exact same range as Cure Light/Moderate/Serious/Crit/etc. Spell. Since all those spells are Range: Touch.

Taur
06-24-2007, 06:06 AM
god forbid you actually face your target AND be in touch range. slay living and the rest of spells that use this same mechanic are fine. perhaps the real problem lies a little closer to home.

zombie_steve
06-24-2007, 06:12 AM
Slay Living should have the exact same range as Cure Light/Moderate/Serious/Crit/etc. Spell. Since all those spells are Range: Touch.

We have Destruction, whats the problem? is the few second cool down that bad on you? If you need slay living that much something is wrong.

I have noticed the feat Enlarge does effect the range of slay living. You might want to consider taking it.

Elfvyra
06-24-2007, 06:37 AM
Slay Living, available to Lvl 9 Clerics.

Destruction, available to Lvl 13 Clerics.

Bit of a gap there for the lvl 9-12 clerics to bridge....

Borror0
06-24-2007, 07:11 AM
WHAT??? You mean it has the same Touch Range as the Cure line of spells? ;)

Exactly what I was going to say. The same think applies to Inflict Wounds. On my first-time cleric Friday, I say "Hey, I'll wast some of my mana since I'm so useless in this party! Let's try Inflict Wounds! It has range "touch" but so does CLW, I should be ok from here!" I was really disapointed.

I mean, seriously, are those spells really that overpowered?

Ok, to be closer to PnP blah blah blah, there are things that does not translate well into a video game. This is one... and the blindness effect on Holy Smite is an other... ;)

MysticTheurge
06-24-2007, 08:37 AM
They're working on a lot of things to make them "Pay on Effect" instead of "Pay on Request."

I think Lay on Hands already got this treatment, and that some other X/day abilities are next, but they definitely want to get spells done too.

This would mean, at the very least, if your spell fails because you're not facing your target, that you keep the spell points for it.

Impaqt
06-24-2007, 09:17 AM
Dude... chill a little;) I think he was actually trying to be helpful. He didn't say it shouldn't be fixed, he was just trying to provide some alternatives. Course I could be wrong... people do tend to shoot stuff down a lot around here:)

Vox


I was.. Bus some people woudl rather complain instead of changing tactics slightly to help themselves AND the party I guess....

Some CC and THEN a Slay is a good thing. A Stunned/Commanded/Help mob is a Stationary mob.... Easy Pickins for a Slay....

Would I liek it changed? Sure... But int he meantime I'm helping the party and landing Slays....

Harbinder
06-24-2007, 09:51 AM
Monsters can cast behind themselves. And above themselves.

I want to be able to cast like a monster. Also the +100 concentration checks too pls.

For what it's worth...

Well in fact, with mobile spellcasting you can cast above behind and all around you, just not at a "target". Your target must be the floor, or a wall, or heck even the ceiling. Once you start casting you are able to run around, dance the Watusi, and eat fried beans and your web/fog/ck/hypno patt/haste/buff/ still lands exactly where you targeted (just not a monster as you need to have line of sight on enemy targets).

Luthen
06-24-2007, 10:13 AM
I protest this request. Dev's, you did a great job upgrading the AI. Some people will never be satisfied, don't cater to them.

Monsters running into a wall even while you're beating it's skull in is not a "great job" on an AI upgrade. Monsters raging but still running away from you is not a "great job" on an AI upgrade. Giants running away from a Dwarf is NOT a "great job" on an AI upgrade. Monster casters with unlimnited spellpoints is not a "great job" on an AI upgrade. Monsters that run past you then turn around and run past you again and continue to repeat the cycle is NOT a "great job" on a AI upgrade.

The OP is not asking for a spell to be overpowered. He is asking that it have similar functionality compaired to what it had before the AI change. Perhaps the spell doesnt need to be Line of Sight. No we shouldnt be able to cast around corners but if a monster is still in range but moves behind us while we're mid cast why cant we still hit them as it is a verbal spell not a visual one?

Mockduck
06-24-2007, 10:46 AM
I wondered what was up with Slay Living. I'd heard so much about it, so decided to give it a try. Couldn't get one cast off. Good idea about the hold person-command idea, I'll give that a try. However, I just haven't been able to really use slay living that much - I like Flame Strike, because it's easy to cast, does plenty of damage and hits a group at once - great when you're in the middle of a large battle. I actually switched out Slay for Summon 5 - the elemental's been helpful to me as a cleric. But I think i'll put it back in and give it another try.

Keep in mind I'm only level 10, so some of the stuff available as I get higher in level will change this up.

Ithrani
06-24-2007, 10:58 AM
I disagree with this variation of a fix as I don't want the computer picking my target for me beyond the default of closest target via tab targetting. Additionally, it's a significant change to alter the "view arc" requirement for spell-casting, regardless of whether it would be more "accurate"

Vox

Who said anything about the computer picking targets. I meant when your target is to close and you try to cast, lets say Hold Person, but then you get the message, must face the target. I am practically face to face with the target but it does not register that way to the games interface. So a good fix would be so that a target that is not just close I am literally on top of your toon, but even a touch behind them but still pretty much in the same space, should be able to be hit by a spell.

And that change to the view arc would make casting not just more in line with PnP (You don't have to "turn" to cast on an enemy that has line of sight, you are considered doing that) but would stop the message that we must face the target, unless the target is behind you and a few paces a way, then you should get the message. An area around every persons body that if you get that close the caster does not need to "face" you.

Thing that kills me is that it is a stupid online game mechanic and not a DnD issue. No DM tells someone your spell fails cause your target is adjacent to you, but your head was turned around the wrong way...

shins
06-24-2007, 11:45 AM
I was.. Bus some people woudl rather complain instead of changing tactics slightly to help themselves AND the party I guess....

Some CC and THEN a Slay is a good thing. A Stunned/Commanded/Help mob is a Stationary mob.... Easy Pickins for a Slay....

Would I liek it changed? Sure... But int he meantime I'm helping the party and landing Slays....


I apologize for that, it was late last night and I was frustrated and took it the wrong way.

I know i can command, cc, or whatever a mob then slay it. But why should i have to. My complaint is the error messages and getting your sp drained when that happens.

I'm not asking for a range on it like destruction, just maybe a 10-15 foot type buffer zone where, like i said, i dont have to pray the mob doesnt take a quarter of a step off to the side.

tihocan
06-24-2007, 12:28 PM
My main problem with such short-range spells is that the radius of casting is not very forgiving at short range, due to mob moving pretty fast. So you can be sure you're facing the target, but the game says you're not.
I'd like to see the "facing radius" increased at short range.

Harbinder
06-24-2007, 12:29 PM
I'd like to see casters adapt and overcome rather than trying to waste dev time fixing something that isn't broken.:rolleyes:

Gimpster
06-24-2007, 01:31 PM
"You must face your target" over and over and over again? At least give it some sort of range, doesnt need to be like PK or Finger, just a nice buffer zone to where i can comfortably cast it without praying the mob doesnt take a quarter of a step to the side or something.
The problem here is not with the range of the spell, or with the targetting angle, but with the fact that the targetting angle is checked twice.

First, to cast the spell at all you must be facing the monster. If you are, your mana is deducted, the cooldown starts, the casting animation proceeds and 1/2 second later another directional check is made. If you are still facing the monster and it is still in range, the spell goes off. Otherwise it is wasted.

Spells such as this should be changed to only check your direction and distance once during casting, which is closer to how magic works in PnP (at least for the purposes of "standard action" spells). Basically, in PnP if you cast Slay Living but are unable to immediately reach the target (such as failing the touch attack roll) the spell isn't wasted- you keep the magic charge in your hand, and can hit the enemy as soon as you get back into range.

It would be complex to give DDO a concept of "holding the charge" for a touch range spell, so it's easier to simply assume that if the target was in range at any point during casting, it is still in range when you finish.

Solik
06-24-2007, 02:04 PM
This should be done for ALL touch spells (Chill Touch, etc). They should have a 360-degree radius of effect but still be (very?) short range.

ericacek
06-24-2007, 03:51 PM
I understand you wanted to bring the spell more in line with pen and paper by giving it a touch range, but fellas lemme give you some insight, in pen and paper the mobs arent all hopped up on **** and moving around all crazy. Do you have any idea how frustrating it is getting the message "You must face your target" over and over and over again? At least give it some sort of range, doesnt need to be like PK or Finger, just a nice buffer zone to where i can comfortably cast it without praying the mob doesnt take a quarter of a step to the side or something.

Thanks in advance from one frustrated cleric.

Slay Living range was originally taken out because of huge arcane uproar where Slay Living was sticking way better than PK and was range as well, basically making arcanes second grade next to clerics.
Besides i don't know what you complaining about, you got destruction.

Leave as be, no need to put range on it.

Velexia
06-24-2007, 04:10 PM
When you cast a touch spell, you have a full round to get in range and make a touch attack. In DDO, you have a fraction of a second.

There are two ways the devs can fix this.... the most preferable way would be to have the action fail, without using spell points and without activating the cooldown timer. This would be useful on more than just touch spells.

Any time a spell fails because of some arbitrary game scripting... such as... oh we thought he was in range, but it looks like he just left sorry... you can't cast that. Or... He already has Fire Resistance...

The second is, whenever you cast a touch attack spell, you have a few seconds to get in range of the monster, to touch them.

The first option is more likely, and easier to program, and the second option is more along the lines of traditional D&D.

shins
06-24-2007, 04:10 PM
Maybe just using slay living in my original post was a bad choice on my part. Let me put it this way, All touch spells should be given a small range or like someone above me said a 360 degree arc for casting those spells. It goes from slay living to otto's to chill touch to inflicts to to to... you get my point. And for the love of god i know i get destruction THIS ISNT A RANT ABOUT SLAY NOT BEING THE SAME AS PK, its more of a rant on the error message any caster gets when they try to land a touch spell on these cracked out mobs.

Luthen
06-24-2007, 07:39 PM
I'd like to see casters adapt and overcome rather than trying to waste dev time fixing something that isn't broken.:rolleyes:

OK... but if the spell isn't "broken" then could we at least keep our SP since a monster that is behind us obviously CANNOT be cast upon then we shouldn't be losing SP from the spell being cast but saying we have to face them should we? :p

MysticTheurge
06-24-2007, 08:42 PM
They're working on a lot of things to make them "Pay on Effect" instead of "Pay on Request."

I think Lay on Hands already got this treatment, and that some other X/day abilities are next, but they definitely want to get spells done too.

This would mean, at the very least, if your spell fails because you're not facing your target, that you keep the spell points for it.

See above.

Shecky
06-24-2007, 09:29 PM
I think much of the problem comes from display lag issues. As has been pointed out many times before, melee characters face the same issue - if a monster is running along and your character is running right behind, swinging so that it looks like the weapon is passing RIGHT THROUGH the monster, there'll be a lack of roll. Sounds like the issues are related - positioning as represented (or misrepresented) through graphics and their synchronization.

It's a real pain in the neck when it LOOKS like you're lined up just right for the hit (or touch spell, in this case) and you keep getting no roll whatsoever. I really wish the synchronization issue could be resolved, but I suspect that whatever timing smoothing is done would have to be entirely recoded (and probably take up monster bandwidth) to make it work. *shrug* Hope it gets fixed but I'm not sanguine about the possibility, so I'll have to live with it.

Cowdenicus
06-24-2007, 10:27 PM
god forbid you actually face your target AND be in touch range. slay living and the rest of spells that use this same mechanic are fine. perhaps the real problem lies a little closer to home.

says the person without a cleric.

Luthen
06-24-2007, 10:50 PM
says the person without a cleric.

ROFL... classic Cow. 5 DKP for you!!! :D

ChaosTheEternal
06-24-2007, 10:58 PM
They're working on a lot of things to make them "Pay on Effect" instead of "Pay on Request."

I think Lay on Hands already got this treatment, and that some other X/day abilities are next, but they definitely want to get spells done too.

This would mean, at the very least, if your spell fails because you're not facing your target, that you keep the spell points for it.Guarantee if they changed it so the usage came on the second check (e.g. spells consuming SPs or items/abilities consuming a charge/use), on the effect, but left the cooldown on the first check, on the request, there wouldn't be much of a complaint.

There still might be a complaint, but in that case, it's just having to wait for a cooldown, which isn't nearly as bad now, and isn't nearly as bad as "there went my SPs".



Of course, under the same respect that an enemy will pop out of your facing area while casting, I've had a mob be in position at the beginning of cast, pop out and back in (or you're turning to face them or they pop out of range but you're running at them while casting), got the facing error message (or out of range error message), but the spell still fired successfully. Those are the fun ones to do, but it's almost always by chance and not that common to do.

Harbinder
06-24-2007, 11:05 PM
OK... but if the spell isn't "broken" then could we at least keep our SP since a monster that is behind us obviously CANNOT be cast upon then we shouldn't be losing SP from the spell being cast but saying we have to face them should we? :p

Why would you cast a spell at something behind you?

If the enemy is charging right towards you, and your spell misses, that's your fault.

Luthen
06-24-2007, 11:26 PM
Why would you cast a spell at something behind you?

If the enemy is charging right towards you, and your spell misses, that's your fault.

Just curious. Do you play a cleric? If so do you ever use Slay Living? If not then you're not very well informed. If you do then I just dunno what to say. You have none of the problems other clerics have. If you are a front line cleric and you target a monster in front of you by the time you target it and move within range to cast it has either aggroed on you or another party member and moves. Often past you or to the side... either way it is no longer "line of sight" and the SP is wasted and the spell fails. I have been clericing a long time now. Since BETA in fact. So please extend your wealth of knowlege that seems to make you a better and wiser cleric then all the rest of those having this issue with touch spells.

Vox
06-25-2007, 01:04 AM
god forbid you actually face your target AND be in touch range. slay living and the rest of spells that use this same mechanic are fine. perhaps the real problem lies a little closer to home.

I'll take one or the other but not both thanks... I can touch things I'm not facing, can't you?

Vox

Lorein_Azura_Childs
06-25-2007, 01:13 AM
Slay Living should have the exact same range as Cure Light/Moderate/Serious/Crit/etc. Spell. Since all those spells are Range: Touch.

I wish. :rolleyes: Well... that change may be just around the corner, whether everything becomes truly touch range, or the alternate being slay living having the ability to be casted from afar just like cure lines.

Vox
06-25-2007, 01:16 AM
Why would you cast a spell at something behind you?

If the enemy is charging right towards you, and your spell misses, that's your fault.

Are you another one of those people that's incapable of touching something that's behind you?... man, seem to be a lot of limited mobility folks on this forum.

Vox

Mad_Bombardier
06-25-2007, 10:04 AM
My main problem with such short-range spells is that the radius of casting is not very forgiving at short range, due to mob moving pretty fast. So you can be sure you're facing the target, but the game says you're not.
I'd like to see the "facing radius" increased at short range.


This should be done for ALL touch spells (Chill Touch, etc). They should have a 360-degree radius of effect but still be (very?) short range.Hear, hear. I have no problem with "touch" range. But, given that it's so small, make it 360° and get rid of facing.

Mad_Bombardier
06-25-2007, 10:12 AM
If the enemy is charging right towards you, and your spell misses, that's your fault.That has to do with the game mechanic and it IS NOT OUR FAULT! Mobs are programmed to flank us. If you are casting when they try to flank, the following happens. You can turn your character and track the enemy, maintaining facing the whole time. But if the mob breaks facing of where you were when you started casting the spell, you get a facing error, even if you tracked the mob and manually changed your facing to compensate. It is very apparent with long cast spells, still apparent with short cast versus fast mobs, and IMO one of the most frustrating aspects of casting DDO.

ebt-dnd
06-25-2007, 02:30 PM
I want to be able to cast like a monster. Also the +100 concentration checks too pls.

As far as I can tell, monsters don't have a concentration check at all. Plus they have an inexhaustable mana supply. Can I have those instead? :)

llevenbaxx
06-25-2007, 02:53 PM
I protest this request. Dev's, you did a great job upgrading the AI. Some people will never be satisfied, don't cater to them.

Disagree that its a "cater to me" type of thing completely.

Its a "facing" thing. In PnP facing is pretty much a free action. Due to the mechanics of the game(im guessing), simply performance issues and/or wonky AI, mobs that were once standing in front of you are now off to the side or even completely behind you.

Ive suggested that they bring the free facing back into DDO. Make all touch range spells free of facing. If they are in touch range, the spell goes off. Simple right?:)

This is by no means a cater to anyone type of thing though. It IS very annoying thing to have mob standing there one sec only to be off to your side in the blink of an eye when your spell goes off... or doesnt go off. Doesnt happen all the time but it deos happen plenty that I always take note of it.

Elfvyra
06-26-2007, 03:49 AM
As far as I can tell, monsters don't have a concentration check at all. Plus they have an inexhaustable mana supply. Can I have those instead? :)

Sure, you just have to stay in the same dungeon for eternity and never advance in lvl. ;)

Harbinder
06-26-2007, 05:38 AM
Just curious. Do you play a cleric? If so do you ever use Slay Living? If not then you're not very well informed. If you do then I just dunno what to say. You have none of the problems other clerics have. If you are a front line cleric and you target a monster in front of you by the time you target it and move within range to cast it has either aggroed on you or another party member and moves. Often past you or to the side... either way it is no longer "line of sight" and the SP is wasted and the spell fails. I have been clericing a long time now. Since BETA in fact. So please extend your wealth of knowlege that seems to make you a better and wiser cleric then all the rest of those having this issue with touch spells.
Yes I play a cleric, he's 2 months old my main is a Wizard so I am familiar with casting spells...As far as my wealth of knowledge it's pretty basic...you must face your target isn't something you need a high IQ to grasp. And there are spells that cast at targets behind you (at least some Arcane AOE).

chimerasplice
06-26-2007, 06:10 AM
Something that needs to be considered in translation (which it seems is never the case in this game) is that pnp D&D ignores facing. not to mention that pnp D&D is in rounds, and that the chance of being able to walk up and touch something is pretty much guaranteed except in a few cases. not only this, but in pnp D&D touch spells stay on your hand for 1 round per caster level, so if something does jump out of the way, you can try again later provided you dont cast another spell. This all being considered, touch spells arent so bad in pnp. However with so many things in DDO, translation from pnp has been poor at best. The Devs have not considered that in real time, with an AI that has monsters jumping around like they are on crack (even oozes) touch spells are almost certain to be wasted, since there is no way to hold a touch spell's charge. If its not due to range, its due to the monster jumping over you behind your back. (again, oozes do this with amazing agility, despite their near-zero dexterity scores) With no such thing as an attack of opprotunity, these monsters are free to be acrobats without any penalty. You wont ever see any player able to jump behind a monster's back to dodge a touch spell, that is for certain.
To be perfectly honest, touch spells have no place in a game where every monster from kobolds to oozes to dragons move around like crackheads trained as professional acrobats. Sure, you want to simulate the pnp experience...but to tell you the truth, I have never faced a pnp monster that acted in real time in my round-based combats. This should be something to consider.

Luthen
06-26-2007, 05:08 PM
Yes I play a cleric, he's 2 months old my main is a Wizard so I am familiar with casting spells...As far as my wealth of knowledge it's pretty basic...you must face your target isn't something you need a high IQ to grasp. And there are spells that cast at targets behind you (at least some Arcane AOE).

Well you got me there. I'm just to stupid to know that I have to face a monster to cast touch spells. I guess I'm also so dumb that I have no clue what I am talking about. Oh wait. I do know these things. Except, with few exceptions, most monsters will simply not stand still like a moron and let you do your Bippity Bobbity Boo on them. So either the AI needs to be adjusted or touch spells need some tweaking to be made more effective in a non-turn based environment.

But I'm sure you have some special retort for this comment as well and I will simply go over here and speak to this wall as it will likely hear what others have to say a little better then some people seem to. :p

ebt-dnd
06-26-2007, 05:32 PM
Sure, you just have to stay in the same dungeon for eternity and never advance in lvl. ;)

Well, can I come out on special event weekends and PVP people too? :)

Harbinder
06-26-2007, 05:46 PM
Except, with few exceptions, most monsters will simply not stand still like a moron and let you do your Bippity Bobbity Boo on them. So either the AI needs to be adjusted or touch spells need some tweaking to be made more effective in a non-turn based environment.
Why are these the only two choices?

All you have said is; "The touch attack doesn't work when the enemy is running past me...so therefor the spell must be tweaked to be made more effective."

I see it the other way. Yes, I have had Slay Living get wasted because of what you mentioned, but I realized it was MY FAULT, not the AI. I pretty much won't cast Slay Living unless I'm sure it is gonna land ie: when the mob won't be running out of range or past me. What you've been playing a cleric all this time and still can't handle that?:eek: :rolleyes:

Harbinder
06-26-2007, 05:48 PM
Remember when charm spells would only work 50% of the time and even then the charmed mob would still attack you? That's something to ask for a fix for, not this.

Harbinder
06-26-2007, 05:51 PM
Plus wouldn't you rather have the dev time go into tweaking other, more important stuff? Like bugs that have been in the game since, well, forever

MysticTheurge
06-26-2007, 05:57 PM
Plus wouldn't you rather have the dev time go into tweaking other, more important stuff? Like bugs that have been in the game since, well, forever

Being charged for spells that don't actually get cast is a bug that's been in the game since forever.

Harbinder
06-26-2007, 06:09 PM
*sigh* I'll have to go hunting for info, somewhere DDO tells you that you will waste mana and have your spells not go off under certain conditions ie: your party member ran around a corner while you was trying to buff/heal or the monster ran out of range of spell. or something like that.

Touch attacks are like that, same with PK and FoD, for a reason.

MysticTheurge
06-26-2007, 06:23 PM
*sigh* I'll have to go hunting for info, somewhere DDO tells you that you will waste mana and have your spells not go off under certain conditions ie: your party member ran around a corner while you was trying to buff/heal or the monster ran out of range of spell. or something like that.

Touch attacks are like that, same with PK and FoD, for a reason.

Regardless of what you find, the Devs have already said they're working on fixing this. As I've pointed out several times in this thread. So I'm really not sure why we're still discussing it.

samagee
06-27-2007, 09:06 AM
This I agree with, I am so sick of my SP going to waste because the aggro is on me and the mob is so close to me that I can't target him. Honestly Turbine can't you just make it where if the mobs is literally right on top of you every spell you cast on them can target them, even if they are a bit behind you.

Personally I think they need to fix it where if the spell doesn't fire, we don't charged the mana.

Harbinder
06-27-2007, 05:01 PM
Regardless of what you find, the Devs have already said they're working on fixing this. As I've pointed out several times in this thread. So I'm really not sure why we're still discussing it.
I stand corrected I didn't know that.

This game changes too much.:eek:

Kethir
06-28-2007, 02:34 AM
From reading this thread, all I can contribute is that some people just like to act like [fill in appropriate term, there are several to choose]. But that's really nothing new.

Whether they are actually [refer to earlier selected term], or just message board [same as above]s, who knows and who really cares.

Mad_Bombardier
07-09-2007, 11:03 AM
Regardless of what you find, the Devs have already said they're working on fixing this. As I've pointed out several times in this thread. So I'm really not sure why we're still discussing it.In addition to the "pay on execution" fix, it appears that changes to touch-range spells are coming too!

Spells

NEW – Offensive spells with "touch" range now possess significantly more lenient heading checks. These include Chill Touch, Ghoul Touch, Inflict (various) Wounds, Otto's (ir)Resistable Dance, Slay Living, and Touch of Idiocy.
Good job shins for bringing this topic to the attention of Devs!

Vox
07-15-2007, 05:35 AM
Thread-Rez...

Just wanted to say Score 1 for reaching behind yourself and touching things you can't see! WOOHOO!:D

Vox

MysticTheurge
07-15-2007, 09:44 AM
Just wanted to say Score 1 for reaching behind yourself and touching things you can't see! WOOHOO!:D

I suspect the change will be more from a 90 degree arc to a 180 degree arc. In which case it's more like:

Score 1 for being able to reach out and touch something standing immediately to your left or right!

Mad_Bombardier
07-15-2007, 10:24 AM
I suspect the change will be more from a 90 degree arc to a 180 degree arc. In which case it's more like:

Score 1 for being able to reach out and touch something standing immediately to your left or right!Why did I picture MT singing and dancing to YMCA when I read this post? :p :D

MysticTheurge
07-15-2007, 12:28 PM
Why did I picture MT singing and dancing to YMCA when I read this post? :p :D

I sing and dance to YMCA while I make all my posts. ;)

Levit
07-15-2007, 03:14 PM
Why does DDO have to try and mimic pnp? I don't play pnp anymore, RL restrictions and such, so would not even consider myself a novice at it, but, I view it like a movie developed from a book, when you cross media (book to video), something is lost in translation.

I have played a cleric for a while (over a year) and have been annoyed with missed slay living spells that I was sure should have landed. The thing is, because I haven't played pnp under the new rules structure, I was never disappointed by an apparent rule violation.

The way I looked at it though is that the dev's, to the best of their ability, have tried to make the game as competitive as possible. We, the players, have the great advantage over the game, the ability to develop strategy. The mobs have a limited ability to do so. Also, they can't change tactics, unless devs go in and do a fix or whatever.

Imagine, if you will, a cleric in real life (suspend reality for a bit). The cleric will have a mace in one hand, a shield in the other, 100 pounds of armor on, visor on his head restricting vision and a battlefield with strange beings running around rendering his or her friends to bits. Your job, as this cleric, is to survey the field of battle, ask a divine power to heal people, based on their injuries, avoid getting injured and not lose your concentration.

Now something is charging you! You ask your divine power to give you the ability to slay by touch! The monster sees you reaching for him and he manages to get behind you. Do you really think there is no chance that you miscast your spell? Sweat in your eye? Armor restrict movement? Visor block your view? Shield hits your hand? Mace get in the way? Maybe the Devs are taking these thing into account when a touch spell is miscast.

I could be giving them more credit than they deserve, but who knows? I use strategy to improve my odds of landing a touch spell. Select a target that is engaged on a tank. Cast crowd control or just time your cast and take your chances.

As for mana wasted by miscast. I look at this as another balancing technique for the devs. The mosters having unlimited mana and no concentration check, also a balancing mechanism.

As soon as there is a quest in this game that we can't overcome, then complain, otherwise, use our energies on this board to point out real "bugs".

Flame away my friends, flame away.

Vox
07-16-2007, 05:48 AM
Is it a flame if I just disagree with some of your points?...

Just as a point... imagine you are Barry Sanders... your job is to... <snip>...

You've got years of training, and yeah sometimes things go wrong (hello concentration check for that getting hit by a shield)... sometimes you missed something (whoops, I wasn't close enough...) you might be overburdened (whoops, that mob ran away from me faster than I could run, there's range again...)

Nowhere in there did I lose the ability to reach out and touch something running past me or standing behind me hitting me.

Sure, there are other bugs that could be fixed. Sure there are other things in the DDO universe that are higher priority... unfortunately things are rarely fixed on the priority of the users. What we think is important may not be the first thing fixed for any number of reasons. That doesn't mean we can't point out parts of the game that frustrate us.... and this is one that frustrated me enough that I didn't use the spell for a year.

In the end though, the only thing that matters is that the devs are changing something, and ergo I, and others have gotten something that we wanted, and which will improve the enjoyment of gameplay on some small level.

Vox

Gimpster
07-16-2007, 07:51 AM
Now something is charging you! You ask your divine power to give you the ability to slay by touch! The monster sees you reaching for him and he manages to get behind you. Do you really think there is no chance that you miscast your spell? Sweat in your eye? Armor restrict movement?
Factors like that should be represented by explicit game rules such as attack rolls to hit a touch AC. That way it is the character who has some difficulty in striking the target, not the player.

Eladrin
07-16-2007, 09:57 AM
I suspect the change will be more from a 90 degree arc to a 180 degree arc. In which case it's more like:

Score 1 for being able to reach out and touch something standing immediately to your left or right!
270 degrees, actually.

Score 1 for being able to reach out and touch something standing slightly behind you!

Gol
07-16-2007, 10:00 AM
270 degrees, actually.

Score 1 for being able to reach out and touch something standing slightly behind you!
But not something that was in front of you when you hit the button, but went running right by you and is now directly behind you not 2 inches away. My bet is on SL still being useless.

tihocan
07-16-2007, 10:03 AM
But not something that was in front of you when you hit the button, but went running right by you and is now directly behind you not 2 inches away. My bet is on SL still being useless.
Well hopefully we will be able to manage to keep the "line of sight" by rotating the camera. Which is currently almost impossible (i.e. even if I keep the monster on my screen when it goes by me, I get the "must be facing" error).

Gol
07-16-2007, 10:04 AM
Well hopefully we will be able to manage to keep the "line of sight" by rotating the camera. Which is currently almost impossible (i.e. even if I keep the monster on my screen when it goes by me, I get the "must be facing" error).
almost impossible for mouse gamers that have mouselook on 24/7. Flat out impossible for keyboard gamers like myself. Casting a spell screws up key-turning.

Katianara
07-16-2007, 10:06 AM
270 degrees, actually.

Score 1 for being able to reach out and touch something standing slightly behind you!

The entire hit detection system is awful, no offense :(

If something makes me quit out of frustration, it's this.

Cutedge
07-16-2007, 10:13 AM
270 degrees, actually.

Score 1 for being able to reach out and touch something standing slightly behind you!

As a cleric who has had Slay Living fail a bajillion times, I can't thank you enough for this.

Although I use Destruction more than Slay Living nowadays. :p

llevenbaxx
07-16-2007, 10:21 AM
But not something that was in front of you when you hit the button, but went running right by you and is now directly behind you not 2 inches away. My bet is on SL still being useless.

With 90 degree cone, it is very miscast prone. Im thinking 270 degrees will make all the difference in the world. This is a nice fix on the gamers end, that "extra" 180 degrees will make up for alot of the mob not being exactly where he appears to be in my gaming im sure.

Roguewiz
07-16-2007, 10:24 AM
4 words

Reach Spell Metamagic Feat


Too bad it isn't in game :(

Clawstorm
07-16-2007, 10:42 AM
The entire hit detection system is awful, no offense :(

If something makes me quit out of frustration, it's this.

Have to agree here...if something runs past you should be able to clothesline it - assuming the target is in reach. What we end up getting is a miss even with a large bladed weapon, nothing but misses.

MysticTheurge
07-16-2007, 10:43 AM
almost impossible for mouse gamers that have mouselook on 24/7. Flat out impossible for keyboard gamers like myself. Casting a spell screws up key-turning.

Really? Weird. I'm always able to turn at full speed while casting. It's kind of hard to manage a 90 degree arc and still keep the thing in "range," but with a 270 degree arc all you have to do is make sure the thing isn't standing directly behind you.

Mad_Bombardier
07-16-2007, 10:44 AM
Well hopefully we will be able to manage to keep the "line of sight" by rotating the camera. Which is currently almost impossible (i.e. even if I keep the monster on my screen when it goes by me, I get the "must be facing" error).This would be the preferrable solution. But wider facing arcs and pay on execution (assuming spells get this option too) are a good start!


almost impossible for mouse gamers that have mouselook on 24/7. Flat out impossible for keyboard gamers like myself. Casting a spell screws up key-turning.Maybe for fast casting Sorcs, but my slow Wiz and Cleric can "track" moving mobs pretty easily while casting. And I am by no means a twitch player. Then again, the Sorc spell goes off faster and he doesn't need to "track."

But yes, it could be difficult for non-mouse players.

MysticTheurge
07-16-2007, 10:47 AM
Have to agree here...if something runs past you should be able to clothesline it - assuming the target is in reach. What we end up getting is a miss even with a large bladed weapon, nothing but misses.

Yeah, that would be represented by the (entirely missing) attack of opportunity system.

Missing_Minds
07-16-2007, 11:44 AM
almost impossible for mouse gamers that have mouselook on 24/7. Flat out impossible for keyboard gamers like myself. Casting a spell screws up key-turning.

You do know you can change the turning speed if you use a keyboard? I think the default setting is something like 160. I shoved it up to 250, and it makes a big difference. :)

I don't have too much of a problem following the mobs at all now when they try to get behind me.

Gimpster
07-16-2007, 01:05 PM
4 words
Reach Spell Metamagic Feat
What game features a "reach" metamagic?

In D&D, you can get spell reach by things like levels of Archmage or Hierophant... not a simple feat.

MysticTheurge
07-16-2007, 02:10 PM
What game features a "reach" metamagic?

In D&D, you can get spell reach by things like levels of Archmage or Hierophant... not a simple feat.

From the Feat Index


Reach Spell CD 84 You can cast touch spells without touching the spell recipient.
Reach Spell DD 51 The deity can cast touch spells without touching the spell recipient.
Reach Spell DF 20 You can cast touch spells without touching the spell recipient.
Reach Spell FP 215 You can cast touch spells without touching the spell recipient.

According to Complete Divine it changes a spell to have a range of 30 feet, turns it into a ray (and thus requires a ranged touch attack roll) and uses a spell slot two levels higher than normal.

Edit -- Oh. It's in the SRD too (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#reachSpell).

QuantumFX
07-16-2007, 02:32 PM
I'd like to see the range/facing check be the first thing completed before any other spell functions take place. If the enemy moves then it still hits them because they were in LoS. It would be a great segway to FINALLY include touch ACs.


almost impossible for mouse gamers that have mouselook on 24/7. Flat out impossible for keyboard gamers like myself. Casting a spell screws up key-turning.

Dude! Now I know why you don't like Spring Attack! :)

Shade
07-16-2007, 03:13 PM
almost impossible for mouse gamers that have mouselook on 24/7. Flat out impossible for keyboard gamers like myself. Casting a spell screws up key-turning.

Please never noob down the game for gol.

If he had his way wed all have an button that just says "win", and the loot would drop to your feet, even if you misclicked that button and hit "lose" by accident.

Learn2play, mouselook aint that hard.

Shade
07-16-2007, 03:15 PM
Actually the compedium says we already have something like reach, as it list slay living as a spell you can enlarge:
http://www.ddo.com/index.php?page_id=339&menus=sp&do=spells&sp_cid=4&sp_lvl=5&cmi=5:4:5

Cowdenicus
07-16-2007, 03:16 PM
Please never noob down the game for gol.

If he had his way wed all have an button that just says "win", and the loot would drop to your feet, even if you misclicked that button and hit "lose" by accident.

Learn2play, mouselook aint that hard.

mouselook sucks.

Missing_Minds
07-16-2007, 03:48 PM
Learn2play, mouselook aint that hard.

You can kiss my mouse then. I'm not a twitch player, and I suck at shooter games for good reason. Not to mention to play twitch you also need to have a pretty darn good computer, or drop the settings to where they are super ugly, else you are going to comp lag and way over shoot your look/turn/jump/swing.

Gol
07-16-2007, 03:53 PM
You do know you can change the turning speed if you use a keyboard? I think the default setting is something like 160. I shoved it up to 250, and it makes a big difference. :)
I'll try that, thanks.



Learn2play, mouselook aint that hard.
Excuse me if the severe pain in my right wrist prevents me from flipping a mouse around fast enough to use mouselook. And if I wanted to play a first person shooter, I wouldn't be playing DDO.

Spookydodger
07-16-2007, 05:09 PM
god forbid you actually face your target AND be in touch range. slay living and the rest of spells that use this same mechanic are fine. perhaps the real problem lies a little closer to home.

This is just vile of you. The problem usually comes about when a target runs at/past you as you try to cast. He's in range, he's targetted, and he was in your forward arc.

In order to get the spell off, it requires you to turn, move backwards, and click on the spell.

This isn't too much to ask to have the firing arc changed for spells with such short ranges to eliminate an otherwise unnecessary frustration.

Spookydodger
07-16-2007, 05:10 PM
We have Destruction, whats the problem? is the few second cool down that bad on you? If you need slay living that much something is wrong.

I have noticed the feat Enlarge does effect the range of slay living. You might want to consider taking it.

You *do* know that there are more than just 14th level casters, right? And if someone wants to focus on necromancy, then this is one of those spells. Is someone wanting all of their spells to not be frustrating that bad on you?

Spookydodger
07-16-2007, 05:15 PM
Amen.


Monsters running into a wall even while you're beating it's skull in is not a "great job" on an AI upgrade. Monsters raging but still running away from you is not a "great job" on an AI upgrade. Giants running away from a Dwarf is NOT a "great job" on an AI upgrade. Monster casters with unlimnited spellpoints is not a "great job" on an AI upgrade. Monsters that run past you then turn around and run past you again and continue to repeat the cycle is NOT a "great job" on a AI upgrade.


Nor, might I add, are held/helpless archers still shooting a great AI change. I recently tried "From Beyond the Grave" (the one with the pyres you have to light while you protect the gate), and now when I halt-undead the archers, they still keep shooting. I can only attribute that to AI changes.

Spookydodger
07-16-2007, 05:28 PM
Please never noob down the game for gol.

If he had his way wed all have an button that just says "win", and the loot would drop to your feet, even if you misclicked that button and hit "lose" by accident.

Learn2play, mouselook aint that hard.

Relegating everyone to your particular play style does not seem like a sage move to me. It's not for everyone, and forcing people to do so simply narrows the user base. Either they will see the benefit of the method when you say how to use it, or they will not. Calling them, effectively, idiots does nothing but lose your point, makes you look immature, and dissuades people from your point.

This all being said:
Clicking on a spell in mouse-look mode is impossible
Moving while using a keyboard shortcut, and using a mouse to turn, is nearly impossible

Both of these things preclude the effective use of touch-range spells on moving targets, especially when you are not their target.

Generally speaking the only way to do it was to have a temporary-halting spell such as Hypnotism or Greater Command, and then pick them off, or wait till they reached their target and stopped moving (hoping the target doesn't move again and commence its movement).

Spookydodger
07-16-2007, 05:31 PM
I stand corrected I didn't know that.

This game changes too much.:eek:

Too much? I don't know if there is a "too" in that :D

Were it not for change, well, we wouldn't even have a Dragon in this Dungeons and Dragons game! :D

Levit
07-16-2007, 09:01 PM
Is it a flame if I just disagree with some of your points?...

Just as a point... imagine you are Barry Sanders... your job is to... <snip>...

You've got years of training, and yeah sometimes things go wrong (hello concentration check for that getting hit by a shield)... sometimes you missed something (whoops, I wasn't close enough...) you might be overburdened (whoops, that mob ran away from me faster than I could run, there's range again...)

Nowhere in there did I lose the ability to reach out and touch something running past me or standing behind me hitting me.

Sure, there are other bugs that could be fixed. Sure there are other things in the DDO universe that are higher priority... unfortunately things are rarely fixed on the priority of the users. What we think is important may not be the first thing fixed for any number of reasons. That doesn't mean we can't point out parts of the game that frustrate us.... and this is one that frustrated me enough that I didn't use the spell for a year.

In the end though, the only thing that matters is that the devs are changing something, and ergo I, and others have gotten something that we wanted, and which will improve the enjoyment of gameplay on some small level.

Vox

Hardly a flame! I am happy for you and others that had issues with 90 degree issue and got changes instituted to help your enjoyment of the game.

I don't understand the Barry Sanders reference. Doesn't make any sense regarding the issue. I might be slow on the uptake or you were being whitty and I don't see it, but whatever.

You did say you disagreed with some of my points, which implies you agreed with some others? In good debate, you may want to mention that also. It develops a common ground of agreement so those that are debating don't need to rehash that argument.

The one thing I did notice is the dev's are not making it 360 degrees. At least there still is room for chance. Using your Barry Sanders reference, it would be like the referee missing a holding call and Barry taking one to the house for a touchdown. The other team (symbolizing the guy who thought he hit with a slay living but did not) is ****ed off but understands that missed calls (target in front of you on screen but message saying not in line of sight) are part of the game.

Based on the number of respondents that agree with you something had to be changed. It is good to see that the devs read this stuff and make changes to keep the customer happy. I am also as glad that they didn't completely cater to the majority and left a small window for guys like me that like a greater challenge. Using your football reference again, you like instant replay, I don't.

Now go put slay living back in your spell inventory and insta death away!

P.S. Completely off subject but I laughed when you mentioned Barry Sanders! He is my favorite player of all time! Loved watching him at Oklahoma State (still have video of his last game, the 1988 Holiday Bowl). When the Lions (my favorite football team) drafted him it was like the stars were aligned. Wife is still ****ed that I named our dog "Barry Sanders"!:)

GeneralDiomedes
07-17-2007, 10:23 AM
Really? Weird. I'm always able to turn at full speed while casting. It's kind of hard to manage a 90 degree arc and still keep the thing in "range," but with a 270 degree arc all you have to do is make sure the thing isn't standing directly behind you.

I agree with you .. 270 degrees is going to give me probably a 95% success rate, but then again I am used to tracking things as they go by like a sniper with my finger on the spell hotkey. I actually like this aspect of DDO.

I suppose the only improvement they could make is to improve the smoothness of enemy movement. Many of them slide around very quickly and sometimes erratically.

GeneralDiomedes
07-17-2007, 10:28 AM
Excuse me if the severe pain in my right wrist prevents me from flipping a mouse around fast enough to use mouselook. And if I wanted to play a first person shooter, I wouldn't be playing DDO.

DDO undeniably has FPS elements, sorry you have played it this long without realizing it.