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JayDubya
06-21-2007, 01:55 PM
Hrmm.. Extemporaneous concept here. Be nice.

Example: to "simulate" an Arcane Archer via enhancementsThese could be either boosts or permanent, depending on playability issues.

Enhance Arrow I, II, III, IV,V
Provides a +1 -> +5 non-stacking magical bonus to your arrows
Requirements:
various bow/ranger feats
1 level of Wizard _or_ 1 level of Sorcerer _or_ 1 level of Bard.
race: Elf
BAB: 6
Imbue Arrow: Acid, Fire, Cold, Shock, Sonic
Adds 1d4 elemental damage to every arrow, based on which enhancement you choose (you can choose more than 1)
Requirements:
Same as before
BAB: 7
Seeker Arrow: I, II, III, IV
Adds +2/+4/+6/+8 confirm critical bonus to your arrows
Requirements:
Same as before
BAB: 9
Phase Arrow
Uses the touch AC of the target instead of regular AC for a short time.
Hail of Arrows
Increases the number of times you can activate Multishot, or alternatively, increases the duration of Multishot
Arrow of Death
Can't quite do this the same way, what about:
Arrow of Paralyzing - turns all of your arrows into paralyzers for 20 seconds
Arrow of Disruption - ...
Arrow of Banishment - ... These would be _expensive_ enhancements. You wouldn't be able to carry these, and a bunch of other enhancements at the same time.



I bet clever folk on the forums could come up with alternate builds for most of the other prestige classes. Try not to make them over-powerful :)

Gennerik
06-21-2007, 02:09 PM
Hrmm.. Extemporaneous concept here. Be nice.

Example: to "simulate" an Arcane Archer via enhancementsThese could be either boosts or permanent, depending on playability issues.

Enhance Arrow I, II, III, IV,V
Provides a +1 -> +5 non-stacking magical bonus to your arrows
Requirements:
various bow/ranger feats
1 level of wizard _or_ 1 level of sorcerer
race: Elf
BAB: 6
Imbue Arrow: Acid, Fire, Cold, Shock, Sonic
Adds 1d4 elemental damage to every arrow, based on which enhancement you choose (you can choose more than 1)
Requirements:
Same as before
BAB: 7
Seeker Arrow: I, II, III, IV
Adds +2/+4/+6/+8 confirm critical bonus to your arrows
Requirements:
Same as before
BAB: 9
Phase Arrow
Uses the touch AC of the target instead of regular AC for a short time.
Hail of Arrows
Increases the number of times you can activate Multishot, or alternatively, increases the duration of Multishot
Arrow of Death
Can't quite do this the same way, what about:
Arrow of Paralyzing - turns all of your arrows into paralyzers for 20 seconds
Arrow of Disruption - ...
Arrow of Banishment - ... These would be _expensive_ enhancements. You wouldn't be able to carry these, and a bunch of other enhancements at the same time.



I bet clever folk on the forums could come up with alternate builds for most of the other prestige classes. Try not to make them over-powerful :)

JayDubya, why would these enhancements be expensive? You're already sacrificing power as both a Ranger or a Wizard by picking the other class. The whole goal of adding Prestige Classes is to either add flavor to the game or to increase the power of multiclassing nearer to their single class counterparts. By having the enhancements be really expensive, you're basically reducing the power, because now you sacrifice not only the higher level enhancements of each class, but also the number of total enhancements you get outside of these.

Mourning_Star
06-21-2007, 02:11 PM
I think it's a pretty fun idea and has some merit in it's ability to better utilize the enhancement system in place. But honestly, I want Turbine to suffer and code the actual classes! In the interim, yes, this is the kind of creative customization I would like to see in enhancements. And as Gennerik mentioned, these aren't overpowered, so no need to make them expensive.

Solik
06-21-2007, 02:16 PM
?

Hasn't Turbine been implementing these for several updates now?

Is this a request for ideas for more of them?

Elfvyra
06-21-2007, 02:17 PM
Umm.... No. Main reason being that Classes cannot, and should not, be reset. Unlike Enhancements....

Solik
06-21-2007, 02:18 PM
Umm.... No. Main reason being that Classes cannot, and should not, be reset. Unlike Enhancements....
Sure.

But in PNP, you can retire a character, then roll up a brand new one at only one level lower (if that).

Couldn't do that in DDO last I checked :p

Mourning_Star
06-21-2007, 02:23 PM
Sure.

But in PNP, you can retire a character, then roll up a brand new one at only one level lower (if that).

Couldn't do that in DDO last I checked :p

That's not a rule, that's a nice DM. You also can't make a lower level char in a different campaign and just send him a bunch of gold and equipment from your higher level character.

KristovK
06-21-2007, 02:24 PM
Bump the BAB of some of the enhancements, since they should correspond with the actualy PrC requirements for those feats, so that that Embue is a +8 BAB, Seeker is +10, Phase is +12, Hail of Arrows is +14 and Arrow of Death is +16.

Arrow of Death is actually pretty easy, create 1 Arrow of Slaying every 20 minutes, must be used within 20 mins or it vanishes, since we can't exactly replicate the 1 day to create and 1 year before it vanishes, with only being able to have 1 Arrow of Death at any given time. Can't be given to anyone else and so on.


Personally, I'd rather see the actual PrC's done as opposed to using enhancements to mimic them, just doesn't do them justice. Way of the Assassin for example doesn't even come close to the Assassin PrC.

JayDubya
06-21-2007, 02:26 PM
?

Hasn't Turbine been implementing these for several updates now?

Is this a request for ideas for more of them?


I have only seen minor kits - like the religious kits for Clerics and Paladins, and the vague Warchanter/Spellsinger concepts.

I thought it would be interesting to attempt recreate a complete prestige class with enhancements.

And yes, this is a solicitation for more ideas, more enhancement-based implementations. I wonder who might attempt Mystic Theurge...

JayDubya
06-21-2007, 02:33 PM
Umm.... No. Main reason being that Classes cannot, and should not, be reset. Unlike Enhancements....

This is true, however:


a casual perusal of the SRD seems to indicate that very few prestige classes "overlap" in that you can easily switch from one to another
Many, many people seem to want to be able to respec, and this allows Turbine to offer that capability for prestige class "kits"
When Turbine fixes a core feat or class ability, it can be devestating to the players who feel nerfed by it. By using enhancements, they can tweak the prestige class abilities, and if someone doesn't like it, they can switch away to a normal build, or change their prestige "architecture" without significant penaltyFlexibility isn't a bad thing. You may want people to suffer for their ignorance :), but I'm more charitable. And it isn't like I'm saying they can re-build themselves from the ground up.

JayDubya
06-21-2007, 02:37 PM
Bump the BAB of some of the enhancements, since they should correspond with the actualy PrC requirements for those feats, so that that Embue is a +8 BAB, Seeker is +10, Phase is +12, Hail of Arrows is +14 and Arrow of Death is +16.


Fair enough.



Personally, I'd rather see the actual PrC's done as opposed to using enhancements to mimic them, just doesn't do them justice. Way of the Assassin for example doesn't even come close to the Assassin PrC.


If you had to choose between no PrC in the next 3 years, or an enhancement based approach by the end of thise year, which would you prefer? Turbine only has so many people to do the coding, and sometimes an 80% solution in 6 months is better than a 100% solution in 3 years.

Mourning_Star
06-21-2007, 02:48 PM
After more consideration and reading some other comments I must say that substituting a prestige class for a set of enhancements is a bad idea. I think that road only leads to trouble.

Implement prestige classes: YES!
Implement more enhancements and more creative enhancements: YES!
Flat out sub a prestige class for enhanements: NO! Arcane Archer should be a prestige class!

For some prestige classes that have a couple of cool abilitities that can be implemented, but others that would be impossible/ludicrous to implement (thus making the prestige class a "never going to implement"), your idea makes sense. In this case, the prestige class isn't being substituted, but some of the abilities are being imported because they are just that cool.

Mourning_Star
06-21-2007, 02:50 PM
If you had to choose between no PrC in the next 3 years, or an enhancement based approach by the end of thise year, which would you prefer? Turbine only has so many people to do the coding, and sometimes an 80% solution in 6 months is better than a 100% solution in 3 years.

I'd go for a balanced approach. Implement the prestige classes that can be implemented in game. Implement cool abilities from classes that can't be implemented in other forms such as enhancements.

nabrendel
06-21-2007, 02:53 PM
Just to throw some more fuel on this fire, I commented this in another thread where I saw a second mention of something like this.. In the "recalling for mana thread" Elardin posted a response mentioning something called "Spellsinger" as being in the next update.. and also in the loading screen if you note, there is mention of Holy Sword and Warchanter.. Holy Sword we know is the pally spell however... warchanter and spellsinger are both prestige classes soooo one wonders are they really going this route.. prestige classes being open via enhancements.. just like basically clerical domains(faiths) are now open via enhancements..

and if this is the case.. I need more enhancement points lol...

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 02:55 PM
That's not a rule, that's a nice DM.
No, it's something strongly suggested as standard operating procedure all over the Dungeon Master's Guide.

It's not a "rule" insofar as D&D has no rule specifying what level characters start at. Also notice that the PHB2 includes sundry rules and suggestions on how PCs can be allowed to respec their skills, feats, classes, races, or anything.

Cinwulf
06-21-2007, 02:58 PM
Personally, I'd rather see the actual PrC's done as opposed to using enhancements to mimic them, just doesn't do them justice. Way of the Assassin for example doesn't even come close to the Assassin PrC.


I agree but I have a sneaking suspicion they are going to go the enhancement route.

Mourning_Star
06-21-2007, 03:01 PM
I agree but I have a sneaking suspicion they are going to go the enhancement route.

is that why hsinclair said to never multi-class? because she saw the evil plan behind the prestige class - enhancement merger??:eek:

Racer_Xonclar
06-21-2007, 03:05 PM
My 1.5 cents...

We already have enough problems getting all the enhancements we want because there isn't enough action points...and we want to add more stuff to get? Come on here lol.

Prestige classes are hard to qualify for...I would not want Turbine to be lazy (again) and poorly implement something that's so hard to get into a system they already have instead of properly creating separate classes to level in

Solik
06-21-2007, 03:10 PM
That's not a rule, that's a nice DM. You also can't make a lower level char in a different campaign and just send him a bunch of gold and equipment from your higher level character.
You may want to double-check on the rules for rolling up a new character if your previous one perishes. If your DM disallows simple retiring, then just do something stupid and die.


I don't think we'll ever see "standard" PrCs. Fight for the PrCs you want as enhancements and focus on getting their signature abilities added as enhancement lines.

I don't know that it's reasonable to assume that there will never be multiclass enhancement options as well. A Mystic Theurge enhancement line, for example, could require various enhancements from Cleric and (Wizard or Sorcerer) to enter.

Shaamis
06-21-2007, 03:13 PM
JW,

without getting into the particulars, I think this is a GREAT idea on how to introduce Prestige classes into DDO!
I am not even beginning to look into the particulars, because I am imagining the possibilities.

A reason to use enhancements (non-PnP concept) to get Prestige classes (PnP staple) into teh game...

Beautiful, and it should work too!I promise to read into it fully, and see if I can contribute.

Sincerely,

Solik
06-21-2007, 03:16 PM
Yep, it's a great idea. It was when I came up with it 3 months before the new enhancement system appeared, 5 or so months before the first set of enhancement-based PrCs appeared (thief-acrobat, assassin, mechanic... not sure if mechanic is an official prc anywhere though). Not that I'm claiming credit as Turbine's inspiration or anything :p

By the way, we're getting three more of them in July's update, all for bards.

JayDubya
06-22-2007, 06:34 AM
JW,

without getting into the particulars, I think this is a GREAT idea on how to introduce Prestige classes into DDO!

Beautiful, and it should work too!I promise to read into it fully, and see if I can contribute.


Thanks, mt! I appreciate the support.

And to the others, who have provided constructive criticism (thank you, by the way):

Just because Way of the Assassin is broken/suboptimal, doesn't mean that they all will be suboptimal.
Yes, full Prestige Classes would be nice. But (I'll wager) adding classes to DDO is a much, much more complicated, timeconsuming and risky process than adding enhancements.
Too expensive - In all honesty, you shouldn't be able to get everything you want with the AP system. You should have to make some hard choices. Either be a more effective healing ranger, say, or be an arcane archer. Be as high DPS/high HP as you can be, or be a dwarven defender. etc. I don't think it's unreasonable to make you sit down and decide what you want to play.
After all, if you don't like it, you can switch away in 3 days...

Lcdr_Swizzle
06-22-2007, 06:53 AM
IF they are going to go this route, using enhancements for prestige class-like abilities, and IF we think we need more action points to do this well, a possible solution could be to give players an action point at EVERY rank, even when we level. That's 5 action points instead of 4 at each level, so a level 14, for example would have 14 more action points to use.
Now, if they DON'T give us more good things to use them for, then this would be a very bad idea, in my opinion.

EinarMal
06-22-2007, 07:36 AM
I like this idea a lot and honestly it is probably the only way we are getting Presitge classes at this point. Given the overall lack of attention to the game and how long it takes to just get 2 more levels added I would prefer getting 20 levels and getting more of the basic classes/races. To get to that point even is many months away it seems. So, for real prestige classes you are looking at probably 6-12 months minimum before they would START on any of those.

I like the arcane archer enhancements that you posted and I think this is a good short term solution for more variety. When/if they implement the actual class they can just remove the enhancements and reset those who took them.

I do not think we need more action points. If you want to go for the arcane archer enhancements then you should have to give up something else. Otherwise characters become even more out of balance, monsters get buffed blah blah.... What it does is add more variety and customization so every character is not built to one uber template (Dwarf Barbarian cough cough....).

Symar-FangofLloth
06-22-2007, 08:00 AM
Just to throw some more fuel on this fire, I commented this in another thread where I saw a second mention of something like this.. In the "recalling for mana thread" Elardin posted a response mentioning something called "Spellsinger" as being in the next update.. and also in the loading screen if you note, there is mention of Holy Sword and Warchanter.. Holy Sword we know is the pally spell however... warchanter and spellsinger are both prestige classes soooo one wonders are they really going this route.. prestige classes being open via enhancements.. just like basically clerical domains(faiths) are now open via enhancements..

and if this is the case.. I need more enhancement points lol...

In that thread where the bard PrC/enhancements were discussed, I commented on how it seems that its proof that PrCs will in fact be enhancements. I was told that's not necessarily true. But think, if we can grab PrC-like abilities while maintaining full power of the base class(es), isn't that a good thing, and at least comparable to the other enhancements?
When/if PrCs are ever put in as classes, unless it comes along with a level cap, then any existing capped/high level characters will be unable to take advantage of them. Even with a level cap increase, they won't get much of them. So having some of the abilities for purchase as enhancements is a good idea I think. When PrCs come out, they can keep the enhancements, and you either: 1)won't bother at all, 2)will go with one or the other, and have comparable powers [enhancement path has more base abilities, but less APs to spend, and vice-versa], or 3) get both to have more usage from your abilities [at a price, obviously]. I see nothing wrong with that.

MRicebong
06-22-2007, 08:29 AM
Hrmm.. Extemporaneous concept here. Be nice.

Example: to "simulate" an Arcane Archer via enhancementsThese could be either boosts or permanent, depending on playability issues.

Enhance Arrow I, II, III, IV,V
Provides a +1 -> +5 non-stacking magical bonus to your arrows
Requirements:
various bow/ranger feats
1 level of wizard _or_ 1 level of sorcerer
race: Elf
BAB: 6
Imbue Arrow: Acid, Fire, Cold, Shock, Sonic
Adds 1d4 elemental damage to every arrow, based on which enhancement you choose (you can choose more than 1)
Requirements:
Same as before
BAB: 7
Seeker Arrow: I, II, III, IV
Adds +2/+4/+6/+8 confirm critical bonus to your arrows
Requirements:
Same as before
BAB: 9
Phase Arrow
Uses the touch AC of the target instead of regular AC for a short time.
Hail of Arrows
Increases the number of times you can activate Multishot, or alternatively, increases the duration of Multishot
Arrow of Death
Can't quite do this the same way, what about:
Arrow of Paralyzing - turns all of your arrows into paralyzers for 20 seconds
Arrow of Disruption - ...
Arrow of Banishment - ...These would be _expensive_ enhancements. You wouldn't be able to carry these, and a bunch of other enhancements at the same time.



I bet clever folk on the forums could come up with alternate builds for most of the other prestige classes. Try not to make them over-powerful :)

this idea is great..if you would like i can alter many PRCs in that way

JayDubya
06-22-2007, 08:45 AM
this idea is great..if you would like i can alter many PRCs in that way


Please do!

Mourning_Star
06-22-2007, 11:27 AM
Remember, PrCs will be fairly simple to implement compared to a base class. Most PrCs are 5 or 10 levels and bring with them only a handful of new abilities or feats. The most difficult portion of level cap increases are the spells followed by additional higher level content. PrCs don't require new content to play in, and a lot of their features need only slight modifications to implement.

For example, arcane archers can be implemented quite easily:

enhance arrow: too easy, all non-magical arrows are boosted to +1/+2/+3...
imbue arrow: activate like a metamagic feat, then when you cast a spell while wielding a bow, you fire off an arrow and the spell goes off where it hits.
seeker: too easy, you can hit "blocked" targets that show up on tgt window
phase arrow: not a good idea to implement as you cant target stuff behind a closed door/gate and the monster ai can't deal with it
arrow of death: use as a clicky feat like smite at 1/rest if it hits fort sv or die

So, they need to add 5 feats and come up with something else for phase arrow, perhaps ghost touch it. No new animations are required, except maybe a pretty effect when you arrow of death a mob.

This is much easier to add than an entire base class. If Turbine cheaps out and uses enhancements to simulate PrCs I'll be pretty ****ed off.

KristovK
06-22-2007, 11:32 AM
Again..sorry..no to this entire line of thought.

The current Faith of and Way of enhancements don't even come close to Domains and PrCs, they aren't even pale shadows of their shadows.

And your AA suggestion is just...wrong...since Bards can become AA's, quicker then Wiz/Sorc's can since they meet the AB requirement quicker, while a pure Wiz/Sorc can meet all the AA requirements by 12th level. A Bard can do the same by 8th level, allowing for a much better final BAB by 20th since they get the full +10 from the AA, not to mention the hit dice from the AA levels.

Oh yeah..brings up the most important problem with this...the entire AB/Hit Dice/Feats/Abilities bit of the PrCs. Enhancements do not and can not even come close to dealing with those. AA is a fighter type AB progression, +1/level and getting 1d8/level hp. That's great for a Bard/Wiz/Sorc who takes the PrC, and they actually get more out of the PrC then a Ranger, since they have spells they can Embue onto their arrows. Assassin, another great PrC that can't be replicated by the enhancement system...where's the spells they get? How about the uncanny dodge/ improved uncanny dodge they gain as they level? The Death Attack...poison save bonuses..sneak attack bonuses? And how would you even try to replicate a Mystic Theurge or Dragon Disciple or Arcane Trickster?

PrCs don't always require multiclassing, matter of fact only 2 in the SRD require it, Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster. Oh...did you know you don't need ANY rogue levels to become an Assassin? From the SRD..


ASSASSIN
Hit Die: d6.
Requirements
To qualify to become an assassin, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any evil.
Skills: Disguise 4 ranks, Hide 8 ranks, Move Silently 8 ranks.
Special: The character must kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassins.

No special class only abilities required there, just some ranks in some skills, have to be evil(which DMs are often willing to overlook, after all, not all Assassins are working for the Bad Guys), and must kill someone to prove their willingness to join whatever organization they want to join(local assassin's guild, the local lord, the King, Emperor, deity of your choice, etc). So..why would you make a line of enhancements that are rogue ONLY when the actual PrC doesn't require a rogue at all?

Too many reasons why the enhancement system won't work to even contemplate this line of thought, sorry.

Mourning_Star
06-22-2007, 11:33 AM
When/if PrCs are ever put in as classes, unless it comes along with a level cap, then any existing capped/high level characters will be unable to take advantage of them. Even with a level cap increase, they won't get much of them.

Are you kidding me?? There are plenty of players who have rerolled capped toons. I won't have to cuz I don't have any :) What they should do upon rolling out prcs is to add a character slot. It's not like the server databases are hurting from overcrowding.

katanaflame
06-22-2007, 01:23 PM
like I real good natural crit range
or a higher than normal x crit

why in truth this might save me some money on repairs
but pallys have pro evil spell and even mass
most lv 14 pallys probbly have a sliver flame fragment

+ coldIron holy big woop I can by pass dr on reavers
as far as +5 holy its nice thats why I already have one.

and thats the point

why is it they take good things and mess them up
I can only hope this brings somthing good to the table that they are not showing us yet.

and one more rant silver flame exorsim whats the point all red names are immune and once every 20 mins is weak oh oh I dismissed 1 mephit all done ya thats a differance maker.

I am realy begining to belive these guys dont play there own game if they did they would understand the flusteration here.

JayDubya
06-22-2007, 01:25 PM
Again..sorry..no to this entire line of thought.

And your AA suggestion is just...wrong...since Bards can become AA's, quicker then Wiz/Sorc's can since they meet the AB requirement quicker, while a pure Wiz/Sorc can meet all the AA requirements by 12th level. A Bard can do the same by 8th level, allowing for a much better final BAB by 20th since they get the full +10 from the AA, not to mention the hit dice from the AA levels.

I made a mistake, should have included Bards in the Arcane list. My apologies.



Oh yeah..brings up the most important problem with this...the entire AB/Hit Dice/Feats/Abilities bit of the PrCs. Enhancements do not and can not even come close to dealing with those. AA is a fighter type AB progression, +1/level and getting 1d8/level hp. That's great for a Bard/Wiz/Sorc who takes the PrC, and they actually get more out of the PrC then a Ranger, since they have spells they can Embue onto their arrows.
Could be simulated by giving low AP cost cumulative +1 to hit w/bow at various levels. There are plenty of workarounds out there for these situations. If Tenser's can affect your BAB, perhaps these AP points can affect your BAB as well.



Assassin, another great PrC that can't be replicated by the enhancement system...where's the spells they get? How about the uncanny dodge/ improved uncanny dodge they gain as they level? The Death Attack...poison save bonuses..sneak attack bonuses? And how would you even try to replicate a Mystic Theurge or Dragon Disciple or Arcane Trickster?


There are plenty of examples of enhancements that activate spell-like abilities. These are nothing new. Dragon Disciple - give them natural armor bonuses and other spell like abilities. Arcane Trickster - you can already hide in plain sight if your hide is high enough. Could be simulated by a big boost in your hide/move silently skills. Long distance casting could be done by giving Enlarge as a temporary boost. It wouldn't be perfect, but it would be better.

Would these be exactly the same as D&D? No. But you're not likely to ever get this game to be exactly the same as D&D. So maybe we (as players) should consider compromising and coming up with something that is pretty darn close.





PrCs don't always require multiclassing, matter of fact only 2 in the SRD require it, Mystic Theurge and Arcane Trickster. Oh...did you know you don't need ANY rogue levels to become an Assassin?

So..why would you make a line of enhancements that are rogue ONLY when the actual PrC doesn't require a rogue at all?


*I* didn't do that. That's an implementation detail, a decision by Turbine that they wanted the Way of the Assassin to be rogue only. That doesn't mean it must be.



Too many reasons why the enhancement system won't work to even contemplate this line of thought, sorry.


Sorry you feel that way. I will continue to push for this without you, then.

Solik
06-22-2007, 04:18 PM
Kristov is just confused. He apparently thinks that the goal is to use the enhancement system to faithfully (or at least as much as possible) replicate the PrCs.

What he calls not even "pale shadows of their shadows," of course, I consider interesting game design on their own right equally useful for creating character diversity, specialties, and flavor.

KristovK
06-23-2007, 01:20 AM
Solik, enhancements shouldn't be anything but flavor, adding a little diversity between characters of the same class, and right now, they do that.

Faith enhancements...RP tools, and it shows, and the threads complaining about the lack of power in those were numerious and loud about that very fact. DDO players don't want RP tools, they want Uber tools! See the post just a few above your own, says it pretty clear. I happen to like the Faith enhancements for the RP flavor they give, and I'm considering using them with my dwarf cleric and my halfling paladin. Sure, I COULD use the AP to get more SP or increase my healing powers or whatever, but I rather like the fact that my cleric or paladin can suddenly call upon the power of the Sovereign Host and completely heal a friend once in a while. It shouldn't BE something I can call upon the gods to do every few minutes, that's pretty stupid, but once a dungeon..yeah..that's fitting.

Way of enhancements, nice RP/design tools to give a rogue some flavor, and they work nicely for that, but that's it. Way of the Assassin is nothing like the PrC class as I said, outside of the word Assassin, they share nothing. I have a WF rogue with Way of the Mechanic(and the Companion enhancements as well) and I like it, it's fitting for a WF. Guildy of mine has the Assassin line and he likes it. It's a good way for rogues to get a little diversity, but that's it. My guildy can find every trap I can even though I get a boost from the WotM and my sneak attacks do as much damage as his despite his WotA boost...difference is I can self repair my WF over time and he can get a better critical confirm chance with his sneaks and maybe do 1 pt of Int damage with them..which he's not noticed as being useful at all, but he enjoys it none the less.

Jay wants to try and replicate actual class distinctions with enhancements, and the enhancement system doesn't work that way. The AB changes..the saving throw changes..hit dice changes..feats..abilities..sorry, but that's not something you can do with enhancements, especially when you hit PrCs like Mystic Theurge or Dragon Disciple. We're talking a bit more then an AB change with these classes you know. MT gets +1 spell level to both divine AND arcane with each level taken, that includes spells known as well as spells cast per day. DD gets natural AC, hit dice increases, natural weapons, size increases(which change the damage of the natural weapons don't forget), breath weapon, wings and lets not forget the stat changes and spells known increases...sorry, but how can you do all that with enhancements after including the AB and saving throw changes the PrC gives as well?

And what if you decide you don't like the PrC enhancement line you've taken after you've spent 5 or 10 levels taking it? What..you suddenly lose all those spells, abilities, AB changes, saving throw changes, hit dice and anything else gained this way? After all, you can change enhancements every 3 days and these aren't little changes we're talking about here the PrCs.

Sorry, no, this isn't a good idea and it's not something anyone with any hope of PrCs should even contemplate.

And lets not forget something...there's been talk of PrCs in the interviews done and their inclusion in the game. It's not a vain hope that someone at Turbine MIGHT do this, it's the hope from knowing it's part of the overall game design plan that they WILL be included properly.

Uska
06-23-2007, 03:41 AM
Although I dont like it(its not your work I dont like) they will proably do them something like that rather then actual classes your work may come close.

Solik
06-23-2007, 02:26 PM
Uh huh.

You might not have noticed, but the DDO paladin? Yeah, not really anything at all like the D&D paladin, is it? In fact, that sort of applies to pretty much everything in the game. Combat's not remotely similar. No grid, real time. Casting? Spell points. Rest shrines? Must have missed those.

Sorry, but everything in your post above was wrong.

KristovK
06-23-2007, 04:23 PM
DDO does indeed vary from the PnP version and that's because it's real time and it's an MMO, neither of which are states that PnP was ever meant to operate under. Want to try PnP on a computer..play NWN or NWN2 or Baldur's Gate or any of the other games in that series. Then you'll realize why you are playing DDO instead. Yes they are fun, yes they are true to PnP..well..mostly for some of them, not so much for others, but it's hard to tell the difference sometimes since they tend to use 2nd and 3rd Ed rules as opposed to 3.5, which really is a radical change. And you can't actually play them online like an MMO, can't have more then a few people in most of them online and the others are limited to 30 or so max on a dedicated server. Get about as much RP from them as you do DDO as well, that's not an issue that's due to the MMO state, it's just how computer games are, RPing isn't something that can be programmed into a game very well, AI's just can't deal with humans and their propensity for not doing the expected.

The Paladin in DDO is very much like the PnP version, minus the mount and given some enhancements to make up for that. Matter of fact, someone who's never played PnP but has played DDO wouldn't have a problem playing a PnP Paladin. Now, take this proposed enhancement based PrC system...you go from DDO to PnP and you'd be totally lost, the PrC you've played in DDO is nothing at all like the PnP version, not even remotely close. Turbine has said it'll add them in later on, and I'll wait for them to do it not ask them to do something halfassed with the enhancement system instead.

A simple glance at the PrCs, their AB and save progressions, the hit dice changes, the feats and abilities...it's not something the enhancement system is capable of dealing with, and that's for the simple ones like Assassin or Arcane Archer. Get into the complicated ones like Mystic Theurge or Dragon Disciple...forget it, the enhancement system couldn't even begin to approach those classes. MT...3 wiz/3 cleric and then go MT...each level of MT gives you +1 wiz and +1 cleric as far as spells per day and caster level, which means 2x the sp of someone the same effective caster level. 3 wiz/3cleric/10MT would be a 13th level caster with the sp of a 13th wiz AND 13 cleric, as well as the spell slots of a 13th wiz and a 13th cleric. There IS a down side, you get the AB and save progression of a Wiz not a Cleric...but...with the sheer magical power you get, it's NOT an issue. I can see the enhancement line for that PrC now...3 levels of Wiz/Sorc or 4 Bard and 3 levels of Cleric required..then you pick a class and the enhancements give you the spell power of the other class...like anyone would go anything but Cleric to keep the AB and saves while gaining the arcane spell powers without paying the price for them. Yeah..take the only balance factor of the MT right out of the picture, that'll work.

Yaga_Nub
12-03-2007, 09:59 PM
Hrmm.. Extemporaneous concept here. Be nice.

Example: to "simulate" an Arcane Archer via enhancementsThese could be either boosts or permanent, depending on playability issues.

Enhance Arrow I, II, III, IV,V
Provides a +1 -> +5 non-stacking magical bonus to your arrows
Requirements:
various bow/ranger feats
1 level of Wizard _or_ 1 level of Sorcerer _or_ 1 level of Bard.
race: Elf
BAB: 6
Imbue Arrow: Acid, Fire, Cold, Shock, Sonic
Adds 1d4 elemental damage to every arrow, based on which enhancement you choose (you can choose more than 1)
Requirements:
Same as before
BAB: 7
Seeker Arrow: I, II, III, IV
Adds +2/+4/+6/+8 confirm critical bonus to your arrows
Requirements:
Same as before
BAB: 9
Phase Arrow
Uses the touch AC of the target instead of regular AC for a short time.
Hail of Arrows
Increases the number of times you can activate Multishot, or alternatively, increases the duration of Multishot
Arrow of Death
Can't quite do this the same way, what about:
Arrow of Paralyzing - turns all of your arrows into paralyzers for 20 seconds
Arrow of Disruption - ...
Arrow of Banishment - ... These would be _expensive_ enhancements. You wouldn't be able to carry these, and a bunch of other enhancements at the same time.



I bet clever folk on the forums could come up with alternate builds for most of the other prestige classes. Try not to make them over-powerful :)

Wow, everything DOES eventually get posted about again after a while.

Cowdenicus
12-03-2007, 10:29 PM
To Quote In Like Flynn:


By the necromatic powers granted to me, I call back this post from the dead that it might live once more.

JayDubya
12-04-2007, 10:27 AM
To Quote In Like Flynn:


Moo hahahaha.