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UtherSRG
06-21-2007, 10:23 AM
I decided to take a look at the weapons in the raid loot lists. I notice something disturbing. I'm sure it's been pointed out before, although generally in terms of named weapons throughout the game, but I thought I'd highlight the raid loot weapon list to exemplify the problem I see.

Dragon raid

Maul - most usable by clerics
greatsword - certainly tank only


Titan raid

Battleaxe - tank weapon
sickle - anyone, but who is really going to use it?


DQ

Khopesh - another tank weapon
kukri - arcanes, perhaps some minor builds
quarterstaff - arcane only
heavy crossbow - anyone can use it, so of course no one does


Reaver

Greatswrod - tanks again, perhaps a replacement for the dragon greatsword
quarterstaff - great for monks, possible for arcanes - but arcanes should not be meleeing at this level
morningstar - tanks, clerics
shortsword - anyone, mostly good for melee rogues and rangers


Of the 12 weapons, only one of them is a ranged weapon, and it isn't even a ranged weapon designed for a ranger but for general ranged attack use.

So my suggestion, and I hope this doesn't fall on deaf developer ears, is that the raid for Module 5 include one longbow or shortbow in the raid loot, and that it will be something a ranger will want to have, at least at the same level of desire a tank would want any of the listed tank raid loot weapons.

Gol
06-21-2007, 10:55 AM
I want a bow as unbalancing for ranged combat as the Sword of Shadows is for melee combat!

KoboldKiller
06-21-2007, 11:14 AM
I don't see any love for the Bastard weilding Pali either.

Elfvyra
06-21-2007, 11:19 AM
Or Dwarven Axes, or Rapiers, or Repeating X-bows, or.....

Cinwulf
06-21-2007, 11:38 AM
I'm so glad the silver bow wasn't raid loot.

Tavok
06-21-2007, 11:49 AM
I'm so glad the silver bow wasn't raid loot.

Golden Bow :D

+5 Holy of Pure Good. 2d8, Feat: Bow Strength, Ranged Alacrity 20%, 5/day Flame Arrows. 19-20/x3 Crit

Hows that for raid loot? :D

UtherSRG
06-21-2007, 11:51 AM
I agree that there are other weapons missing from the raid loot list. However, if you break it down by damage type, and melee vs. ranged, you'll see there's a greater disparity:

Simple melee B/P/S: 3/0/1
Simple ranged P/S: 1/0

Martial melee B/P/S: 1/1/4
Martial ranged P/S: 0/0

Exotic melee B/P/S: 0/0/1
Exotic ranged P/S: 0/0



But let's look at the non-raid loot list, and compare...

Simple melee B/P/S: 33/14/4
Simple ranged P/S: 6/0

Martial melee B/P/S: 9/11/32
Martial ranged P/S: 10/2

Exotic melee B/P/S: 0/0/5
Exotic ranged P/S: 1/2

The dearth of named weapons in a ranged attacker's weapon of choice category (ranged, martial, piercing) is significantly fewer thank a tank's weapon of choice (even if the tank chooses to specialize in slashing or piercing) in general. It's even worse in raid loot.

Sue_Dark
06-21-2007, 11:53 AM
Over powered, they would have to nerf it to +2 true law short bow of deception, no bow str, keep the alacrity and 3/flame arrow with the note that the arrows only last 20 seconds every 2 minutes :rolleyes:

UtherSRG
06-21-2007, 11:54 AM
Golden Bow :D

+5 Holy of Pure Good. 2d8, Feat: Bow Strength, Ranged Alacrity 20%, 5/day Flame Arrows. 19-20/x3 Crit

Hows that for raid loot? :D

Sounds about just right. :D

Hence
06-21-2007, 12:00 PM
Id have to argue that the Maul from Velah is not "most usable by clerics"...
The Maul with one charge of greater restore is most valuable in the hands of a fighter, paladin... Id exclude Barbarians since they cannot clicky when they are raged, and most rogues have UMD to use scrolls if they need to; Clerics can cast the spell, theres no way they would carry that weapon around.

As far as no ranged loot goes... I think you are right, they are really skimping on the bows/crossbows... not to mention there are no Great Crossbows of any value anywhere. Or repeaters.

Morgoth_the_Enemy
06-21-2007, 12:25 PM
Id have to argue that the Maul from Velah is not "most usable by clerics"...
The Maul with one charge of greater restore is most valuable in the hands of a fighter, paladin... Id exclude Barbarians since they cannot clicky when they are raged, and most rogues have UMD to use scrolls if they need to; Clerics can cast the spell, theres no way they would carry that weapon around.

As far as no ranged loot goes... I think you are right, they are really skimping on the bows/crossbows... not to mention there are no Great Crossbows of any value anywhere. Or repeaters.

Paladins can cast the spell too, or just use a scroll.

UtherSRG
06-21-2007, 12:31 PM
Id have to argue that the Maul from Velah is not "most usable by clerics"...
The Maul with one charge of greater restore is most valuable in the hands of a fighter, paladin... Id exclude Barbarians since they cannot clicky when they are raged, and most rogues have UMD to use scrolls if they need to; Clerics can cast the spell, theres no way they would carry that weapon around.

As far as no ranged loot goes... I think you are right, they are really skimping on the bows/crossbows... not to mention there are no Great Crossbows of any value anywhere. Or repeaters.

Point well taken. Mark another tick in the "this is a melee tank weapon" column then. :) More lack of ranged love.

There's one heavy repeater named item.

UtherSRG
06-21-2007, 12:35 PM
Over powered, they would have to nerf it to +2 true law short bow of deception, no bow str, keep the alacrity and 3/flame arrow with the note that the arrows only last 20 seconds every 2 minutes :rolleyes:

/QFT

:laughs:

TreknaQudane
06-21-2007, 12:35 PM
just a note;

the sickle from the titan works with weapon finesse since it's typed sickle, a rogue wouldn't be that bad off using it.

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 01:04 PM
I thought I'd highlight the raid loot weapon list to exemplify the problem I see.
Your evaluations are quite wrong. Also, you've got a fundamental misjudgement- you think that a cleric interested in battle wouldn't use the same weapons a "tank" would. Realistically, most clerics who want to fight well take a single warrior level and gain proficiency in nearly every weapon.


Maul - most usable by clerics
No. The maul is not usable as a weapon by anyone. As a clicky, it is minorly useful to anyone except a cleric. If someone can already cast the Restoration spell, why would they need a 1x clicky?


greatsword - certainly tank only
If you define tank as "anyone who uses non-finesse martial melee weapons", then yes. It's not good for a "tank" in terms of "someone who has absolutely the best AC", as those characters want to use a shield. But if you're one of the many clerics with one level of fighter or paladin, it's absolutely fine.



Battleaxe - tank weapon
sickle - anyone, but who is really going to use it?
Again, the axe is good for anyone who uses martial melee, which is nearly a majority of characters. The sickle is not a great weapon, but it does fill two unique niches:
1. The only finessable weapon that gives you +10 damage from Power Attack.
2. The only simple adamantine weapon that gives +10 damage from Power Attack.
Because DDO inflates both monster hitpoints and player attack bonuses, the Power Attack feat is very attractive to many characters. Finesse rogues and pure clerics alike should consider training Power Attack if they get this sickle, because there are times when you just want to do a whole lot of physical damage.


Khopesh - another tank weapon
kukri - arcanes, perhaps some minor builds
The kukri is decent for melee warriors, because it is a +5 weapon with an extra 1d6 per hit, which crits for 18-20/x2, gaining an extra 1d10 on any crit. Don't be fooled by the 1d4 base damage- that has no significance.
The kukri is also GREAT for clerics who like to use offensive damage spells. It was the first item in DDO which allowed you to get a spell crit on key cleric attacks like Blade Barrier and Cometfall.


quarterstaff - arcane only
heavy crossbow - anyone can use it, so of course no one does
The quarterstaff is not a weapon. It's a clicky which happens to fit in the weapon slot- nobody should ever make an attack roll with it. The crossbow goes unused not because anyone can shoot it, but because it's a crossbow.


Greatswrod - tanks again, perhaps a replacement for the dragon greatsword
Oh absolutely not. No way. The Reaver's Fate greatsword is a major downgrade from the Vault of Night greatsword- it's damage is SO much less, it's not even funny. This weapon is superior only in the situation where the monster is immune to critical hits, but in that case you probably want to use something other than a damaging greatsword anyhow.


quarterstaff - great for monks, possible for arcanes - but arcanes should not be meleeing at this level
There are no monks in this game. If monks are ever added, there is every likelihood that this weapon won't be good for them- we can't predict.
It is a good item for anyone who uses offensive enchantment spells, which is primarily wizards, sorcs, and bards, but also includes clerics who cast Hold Person or Greater Command.



morningstar - tanks, clerics
shortsword - anyone, mostly good for melee rogues and rangers
If a cleric happens to have shortsword proficiency (such as by being the Drow race), the shortsword is decent, as it allows you to inflict fine continual melee damage without much chance of drawing aggro.



So my suggestion, and I hope this doesn't fall on deaf developer ears, is that the raid for Module 5 include one longbow or shortbow in the raid loot
What would be better is a for them to add something like a clicky casting an enhanced version of Flame Arrow, so that rangers can produce stacks of (for example) +4 Thundering Shocking Burst ammo. That way, the benefit can be enjoyed by both longbow and crossbow users.

Kethir
06-21-2007, 01:08 PM
Golden Bow :D
+5 Holy of Pure Good. 2d8, Feat: Bow Strength, Ranged Alacrity 20%, 5/day Flame Arrows. 19-20/x3 Crit
Hows that for raid loot? :D

Looks like a nice bow, for about 20 seconds every 2 minutes.
The only bows I use are for specific encounters. For example, rust monsters, beholders, air elementals, demon queen 6 man and some undead. I sometimes use a paralyzer bow as well, depending.

Otherwise its 2 weapon fighting. I don't really see where that bow, awesome as it is, fits in except with the demon queen.

The real issue with bow combat, in my opinion, is that it sucks. And manyshot I think is to blame. Having it as it is, with a cooldown, means that ranged combat is awesome occassionally and otherwise bad. Evening it out would allow for making better bows, but as it is, you need to make bows for that 20 seconds. So bows are all gimped, since any good bow would be absolutely ridiculous for 20 seconds.

fefnir3284
06-21-2007, 01:43 PM
Golden Bow :D

+5 Holy of Pure Good. 2d8, Feat: Bow Strength, Ranged Alacrity 20%, 5/day Flame Arrows. 19-20/x3 Crit

Hows that for raid loot? :D

I got a better one.


Bow of Brilliance

+3 enchantment
Brilliance <or Brilliant Burst> (per hit does two different type of elemental damage : including screaming <sonic> and force <queen kukri>. On a crit this is a burst affect. No alignment damage).
Unending Energy (basically needs no arrows)
1d12, 19-20/*3 Crit.

and if that isnt 'raid' enough for you them tack this on as well


Unstable Burst : has a small chance to do 4d20 points of elemental burst damage instead of (or in addition to) the normal burst damage. (could deal damage to yourself, but unlike vicious this would be elemental damage and blockable with resistances. if this then youd do +4d20 twice to opponent and +2d10 twice to yourself <with two different elements>)

thoughts? ideas? you likie? ^.^

Kraldor
06-21-2007, 10:36 PM
So my suggestion, and I hope this doesn't fall on deaf developer ears, is that the raid for Module 5 include one longbow or shortbow in the raid loot, and that it will be something a ranger will want to have, at least at the same level of desire a tank would want any of the listed tank raid loot weapons.
Reply With Quote

Since Mod5 is the Litany of the Dead Raid (supposively), it would fit in well with the storyline if there was a good longbow, since it is the favored weapon of The Silver Flame. Most probably would be something with holy/pure good and extra damage versus undead (think a ridiculous bow version of the sunblade)

HorridForm
06-21-2007, 10:50 PM
The Titan Sickle is a highly effective PvP weapon. It can be wielded two handed and two weapon style. Its +5 and adamantium which allows for max Ab and will ignore some DR. The vertigo effect is hot for trips.

Has anyone noticed this weapon is bugged? It seems that it can ignore Heavy Fortification and crit randomly without rolling the proper threat range.

Also the Demon Queen staff is a hot rogue item for the +2 luck bonus to all skills and saves. You can equip it to spot and remove traps. I've also equipped it on my rogue to run through traps in crucible ect for the added Save bonus.

The ray of enfeeblement is useful and so is the globe of invulnerability. The globe of invulnerability will protect against all mind flayer attacks which are considered 4th level spells. It will also nullify the effects of the mind flayer paralysis while you stay inside the globe.

The Greenblade is also very useful for soloing if you dont have the right greater bane weapon because its +5 deals d6 force and on crit an extra d10 force. I use it on my Barb against the deadly Djinns when I solo Wiz King.

UtherSRG
06-22-2007, 11:37 AM
The Titan Sickle is a highly effective PvP weapon. It can be wielded two handed and two weapon style. Its +5 and adamantium which allows for max Ab and will ignore some DR. The vertigo effect is hot for trips.

Has anyone noticed this weapon is bugged? It seems that it can ignore Heavy Fortification and crit randomly without rolling the proper threat range.

Also the Demon Queen staff is a hot rogue item for the +2 luck bonus to all skills and saves. You can equip it to spot and remove traps. I've also equipped it on my rogue to run through traps in crucible ect for the added Save bonus.

The ray of enfeeblement is useful and so is the globe of invulnerability. The globe of invulnerability will protect against all mind flayer attacks which are considered 4th level spells. It will also nullify the effects of the mind flayer paralysis while you stay inside the globe.

The Greenblade is also very useful for soloing if you dont have the right greater bane weapon because its +5 deals d6 force and on crit an extra d10 force. I use it on my Barb against the deadly Djinns when I solo Wiz King.

Even so, there's still a dearth of named ranged weapons, and none from raids.

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 12:26 PM
The Titan Sickle is a highly effective PvP weapon. It can be wielded two handed and two weapon style.
The Shining Cresents cannot be used for TWF fighting, as DDO includes no support for the D&D rules to use the ends of a double-weapon independently.

It is decent in PvP because you've got a high chance of tripping... but, if your opponent is smart he'll know that equipping the weapon means you intend to trip him, and he can shield block until you waste the attempt and are on cooldown.

Aside from the vertigo effect, it's less damaging than most other weapons you could use, and makes you more vulnerable by denying shield protection.

Mad_Bombardier
06-22-2007, 12:32 PM
The Shining Cresents cannot be used for TWF fighting, as DDO includes no support for the D&D rules to use the ends of a double-weapon independently.

It is decent in PvP because you've got a high chance of tripping... but, if your opponent is smart he'll know that equipping the weapon means you intend to trip him, and he can shield block until you waste the attempt and are on cooldown.

Aside from the vertigo effect, it's less damaging than most other weapons you could use, and makes you more vulnerable by denying shield protection.The sad thing is that the Shining Crescents is actually going to go down in DPS when they properly implement double weapons. Right now, it benefits from x1.5 STR and glancing blows and gets 8 doses of sickle damage per round (2d6 x 4 attacks) instead of 7 attacks of TWF.

Roguewiz
06-22-2007, 12:43 PM
quarterstaff - great for monks, possible for arcanes - but arcanes should not be meleeing at this level

Actually, the quarterstaff would suck for monks.

1. Because it is 2handed, you would lose the use of flurry of blows.
2. Depending on how they implement unarmed combat, you will lose your attacks for being unarmed (technically, monks can use their feet..head...knee...whatever, as unarmed combat, but I doubt DDO will implement it that way)

UtherSRG
06-22-2007, 12:51 PM
Actually, the quarterstaff would suck for monks.

1. Because it is 2handed, you would lose the use of flurry of blows.
2. Depending on how they implement unarmed combat, you will lose your attacks for being unarmed (technically, monks can use their feet..head...knee...whatever, as unarmed combat, but I doubt DDO will implement it that way)

Monks can flurry of blows with quarterstaff. DDO should be implementing that. You are right that, as 2-handed, they would be restricted to only attacking with the quarterstaff though.

From the SRD:
When using flurry of blows, a monk may attack only with unarmed strikes or with special monk weapons (kama, nunchaku, quarterstaff, sai, shuriken, and siangham). She may attack with unarmed strikes and special monk weapons interchangeably as desired. When using weapons as part of a flurry of blows, a monk applies her Strength bonus (not Str bonus &#215; 1&#189; or &#215;&#189;) to her damage rolls for all successful attacks, whether she wields a weapon in one or both hands. The monk can’t use any weapon other than a special monk weapon as part of a flurry of blows.

HorridForm
06-22-2007, 09:50 PM
Even so, there's still a dearth of named ranged weapons, and none from raids.

I agree, its a shame to know that there's only 2 bows worth using (Silver and Wounding of Puncture)

What I would really like to see for a raid item is a quiver that allows us expand 1 arrow on the quiver and then a 1 or 2 charge's per rest function that lets us build 99 arrows of that type. The arrows created this way will destroy themselves on dungeon exit.

I am just commenting on additional uses for raid items.

So has anyone else noticed the bug on the shining crescents?

Emili
06-22-2007, 11:07 PM
I agree, its a shame to know that there's only 2 bows worth using (Silver and Wounding of Puncture)

What I would really like to see for a raid item is a quiver that allows us expand 1 arrow on the quiver and then a 1 or 2 charge's per rest function that lets us build 99 arrows of that type. The arrows created this way will destroy themselves on dungeon exit.

I am just commenting on additional uses for raid items.

So has anyone else noticed the bug on the shining crescents?

I like the named acid bow... and many high level rangers use epic bows...

I fact of all the raid weapons the SoS is the only one which holds my interest as I can find better DPS and effects from chest generated loot, the only DPS weapon among the raid loot is the SoS (which happens to be the best for 2handed beat down)... the rest of the raid loot weapons you'll find much better weapons out there.

My silver bow takes a backseat to me +3 holy burst of pure good and my greater banes... ever use a +2 acid longbow of greater giant bane with fire arrows made from a wand on trolls?

It would be nice to have another named bow but in general there are a lot nicer weapons out there outside of raid loot.

HorridForm
06-22-2007, 11:35 PM
I like the named acid bow... and many high level rangers use epic bows...

I fact of all the raid weapons the SoS is the only one which holds my interest as I can find better DPS and effects from chest generated loot, the only DPS weapon among the raid loot is the SoS (which happens to be the best for 2handed beat down)... the rest of the raid loot weapons you'll find much better weapons out there.

My silver bow takes a backseat to me +3 holy burst of pure good and my greater banes... ever use a +2 acid longbow of greater giant bane with fire arrows made from a wand on trolls?

It would be nice to have another named bow but in general there are a lot nicer weapons out there outside of raid loot.

Very true. I have an axiomatic of greater dragon and an axiomatic of greater giant. I just opt to melee more often the shoot meh bow.

If you dont mind me asking what use is the Torture Live Wood? I never felt to confident about it.

Raath
06-23-2007, 12:04 AM
Very true. I have an axiomatic of greater dragon and an axiomatic of greater giant. I just opt to melee more often the shoot meh bow.

If you dont mind me asking what use is the Torture Live Wood? I never felt to confident about it.

I use mine for the extra damage. I hit manyshot, fire off 6 arrows (for 36 secs of acid damage) and then switch over to another bow.

I rarely use my Silver Bow at all, fwiw.

Emili
06-23-2007, 02:34 AM
I use mine for the extra damage. I hit manyshot, fire off 6 arrows (for 36 secs of acid damage) and then switch over to another bow.

I rarely use my Silver Bow at all, fwiw.


Exactly, the extra damage keeps occuring for a while after you've switched bows that way...

TwoHeals
06-23-2007, 06:20 AM
The quaterstaff from the ravor raid is awesome for casters :cool:

Dreamspitter: +5 Quarterstaff, Greater Evil Outsider Bane, Greater Enchantment Focus (+2 to DCs), Life Stealing