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View Full Version : My opinion, having missed a few months.



Dkmafia
06-21-2007, 01:17 AM
I left shortly after you raised the level cap from 10. I came back to a very different game. All in all, I love the changes you made. I think you went over and above to correct the problems in the game, The enhancement system, the new quests, new loot to cover all the missing aspects, changes to spell users all great idea’s.

The biggest problem DDO had, and still does, is that the game is to easy. Now its even more so. While everything you did makes very good sense, it only added to power of the characters. The problem lies in the gear. Characters are more then 3/4 gear and 1/4 build. I have been gone for months and months and my chars streamed through the new content with very minor upgrades, leaving me getting near bored again.

I love DDO. All aspects of it. There has always been talk of a hardcore server for us that easily breeze through this game, that will probably never happen. What about a server with severe loot scaling? -5 levels or more to all chests. No static drops.

I’ve only been back a few weeks, with minor upgrades to my gear and still go through the new content with ease. I don't even have a capped char yet and I'm already reduced to loot runs to entertain myself.

Just my 2 cents..

Shecky
06-21-2007, 06:00 AM
I know this suggestion gets made a lot, but there's a reason for that: create or join a guild that plays hardcore/barebones/etc. Make an agreement with all your guildies that you will ONLY use gear appropriate to your level, refuse to use enhancements and not use "easy button" approaches or gear. There seem to be a number of such guilds around and they appear to be doing pretty well. Check 'em out.

negative
06-21-2007, 08:42 AM
And this is where I disagree. Personally, even with all that uber gear, many of the missions, done on Elite, are still very difficult w/o proper planning. Even with proper planning, some are still very resource intensive / difficult.

I feel that even some missions on Normal are too difficult for their level.

All in all, I would be very much against making this game any more difficult than it is, and in fact, in some places, I'd make it easier (mostly normal). If there are a few quests here and there that you'd like harder, keep it to the Elite setting and I guess I can live with it.

Dane_McArdy
06-21-2007, 08:53 AM
I don't think DDO is anymore harder or easier then other MMOs out there.

I really think the main difference is the idea behind the time it takes to do anything.

Traditionally, MMO make you keep playing simply by the time that is required to achieve results.

And around that comes the quest structure. Lets take a typical good MMO quest, one that isn't kill X and repeate.

It often requires several steps, one of which may be the following: kill a rare mob, or kill a raid mob. The rare mob spawns so infrequently, that there isn't any way, unless you get amazingly lucky to complete the quest in less then 2-3 weeks often. The raid mob requires the organizing often 24-70 some other players, spawns once a week, and anything can go wrong.

Not so in DnD. Would you really be happy to fight all the way down to Redfang the Unrulely, only to find a "Gone Fly Fishing, Try Tomorrow" sign hanging up?

You are never stopped from completing a quest in DDO because a mob wasn't home, the item you needed didn't drop, or whatever, outside of a bug happening. And even if that happens, you can restart and have success.

Other games seem to be a challenge or hard, because of the time you are required to put in just to progress. DDO has removed that. You are not required to sit and grind XP to get to the decent levels. You are not required to spawn hunt for weeks to months on end.

The only way other games are harder, is the way they test your patience with how much of every aspect is a timesink/grind.

JelloMold
06-21-2007, 09:02 AM
Is that what these other games make you do? Wow, now I really don't understand why people complain that this isn't like the others. This is my first, and only, venture into the MMO stuff. I would never put up with all that mess.

sorry, sort of derailed the thread. OP I agree about the loot. I really wish having a +2 weapon was something to be excited about. It ws in PnP for me. Keeping up with the Joneses is really not my style.

CaptGrim
06-21-2007, 09:18 AM
IMO, a -5 loot table sever is a great idea, I'd roll a toon there for sure.

Monty hall loot gets old fast, once your fully geared up.

You would have to change more than the loot tho like immunitys to compensate for gear. Things like that.

Mad_Bombardier
06-21-2007, 10:41 AM
IMO, a -5 loot table sever is a great idea, I'd roll a toon there for sure.

Monty hall loot gets old fast, once your fully geared up.

You would have to change more than the loot tho like immunitys to compensate for gear. Things like that.A great idea, but would require all loot to be bound too. Otherwise, you'd see the same thing of powerleveling a character to get the better loot tables, then passing down all the goodies to lowbie alts.

For now, we will have to resign ourselves to Permadeath and Bare Bones rules for play.

jaitee
06-22-2007, 01:53 AM
why would it be bounded, if it was then there would be no need to trade items, or any sort of trading/selling/making $, take out the auction house, the vendors, also this game does very well in the stats/levels vs. the gear, i have played a previous game for years, and came here, in that other game it was all based on gear, and it was never a challenge, u could solo everything, u didnt need a party

Spell
06-22-2007, 02:04 AM
Easier?? Not really.
Just played to death and repeated ad nauseum.
With only a 2 lvl increase every 4-6 months players quickly cap again, loot run, raid run and reroll toons.
After all of this, dedicated players get all the high end loot and can practically walk through quests blindfolded (forward, forward, left, forward, kill 7 kobolds, check for named kobold and kill, turn around, forward, disable traps, left, open door, kill 3 kobolds, forward, kill kobold shaman, use lever, left, forward, smash crate....)

Dkmafia
06-23-2007, 03:51 AM
And this is where I disagree. Personally, even with all that uber gear, many of the missions, done on Elite, are still very difficult w/o proper planning. Even with proper planning, some are still very resource intensive / difficult.

I feel that even some missions on Normal are too difficult for their level.

All in all, I would be very much against making this game any more difficult than it is, and in fact, in some places, I'd make it easier (mostly normal). If there are a few quests here and there that you'd like harder, keep it to the Elite setting and I guess I can live with it.

The past few days I have been playing with my girl. Just the 2 of us on non-twinked chars. She is new and playing a cleric and I am playing a mutt to compensate for a group. So her bieng new and me bieng a gimp so happy i found a +1 dex item has made this game SOOOO much fun. I suggest it to anyone currently bored. This is how I invisioned the game.

I believe you can still have this by making elite ELITE not the twink setting. I see so many chars that I know are terrible builds and marginal players running through content just on gear alone. I want elite to be strategic and hard. And hard because it's strategic, not because the mob can hit AC80 on a 2 for 500 points of damage. I want a caster to CC us, while the cleric debuffs us and the mobs block the door to the casters. Thats DDO!

Without my weapon of I win and armour of McH (Mc Hammer, "cant touch this") or the fact that most 14th level chars can now raise dead, it would be harder.

Shecky
06-23-2007, 07:47 AM
I want elite to be strategic and hard. And hard because it's strategic, not because the mob can hit AC80 on a 2 for 500 points of damage. I want a caster to CC us, while the cleric debuffs us and the mobs block the door to the casters. Thats DDO!

Without my weapon of I win and armour of McH (Mc Hammer, "cant touch this") or the fact that most 14th level chars can now raise dead, it would be harder.

Then I heartily suggest a run of the Gianthold prequest on elite, for one. Those giant groups do just that (without the door-blocking, because the doors just aren't small enough :) ). And the hit-everything monsters DO require tactics, just not necessarily ones that take half an hour's discussion as it would at the PnP table.

I think you're selling yourself short here, Dk - you sound like you think of this sort of thing quite a bit, and I believe you could MAKE it happen pretty easily. As I said, stick to your guns and make a guild that thinks as you do. Check out the multiple hardcore/barebones/etc. threads if you want ideas.

Dkmafia
06-23-2007, 11:36 PM
Then I heartily suggest a run of the Gianthold prequest on elite, for one. Those giant groups do just that (without the door-blocking, because the doors just aren't small enough :) ). And the hit-everything monsters DO require tactics, just not necessarily ones that take half an hour's discussion as it would at the PnP table.

I think you're selling yourself short here, Dk - you sound like you think of this sort of thing quite a bit, and I believe you could MAKE it happen pretty easily. As I said, stick to your guns and make a guild that thinks as you do. Check out the multiple hardcore/barebones/etc. threads if you want ideas.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying all of DDO is a cake walk now. Especially that white dragon thing (beast). Definitly some VERY cool options out there. I have another example for you. When the quest in house D (think they moved it to k? now.. The church, where u get the ingots) first came out we needed some serious tactics to take that place out on elite (remember the cap was still only lvl10). High AC intimi-tank, high DC CC wizzie, paly with full arua's, bard etc.. That was a quest you had to plan for to complete without recalling (which I think is cheating, I wish we would be locked in, atleast on elite). I think I need more of that fear of death. I dont have it now. Just recall and go back.

All I'm saying is make elite, elite. Even just them locking us in, no recalling on elite would be enough. Minor change, but huge impact. There are a few of us hardcore players that want to have the feeling of acomplishment.

Klattuu
06-24-2007, 11:11 AM
The biggest problem DDO had, and still does, is that the game is to easy. Now its even more so. While everything you did makes very good sense, it only added to power of the characters. The problem lies in the gear. Characters are more then 3/4 gear and 1/4 build. I have been gone for months and months and my chars streamed through the new content with very minor upgrades, leaving me getting near bored again.


What I am noticing is the gear is inching up incrementally in power with levelling but the characters are advancing in power much more rapidly.

In preparation for level 20 development, what the devs really could not do is re-align enhancements, the spell system, and the equipment simultaneously. 1) It is just too many factors to take into account and 2) the players would not stand for it. So instead of the cold-turkey approach, we seem to be experiencing a evolutionary re-alignment.

I get the feeling that as we progress to 20, characters will be closer to 1/2 gear, 1/2 build when it comes to character power.

Dwolf
06-24-2007, 12:30 PM
I understand the OP's point about wishing gear were toned down. But it's hard to make the game "harder" or "easier" because there are too many factors. Party composition alone can change the nature of a quest. There are quests that are incredibly hard with so called "balanced" parties that become ridiculously easy with specialist parties.

There are quests that are a pain in the hiney with the traditional spell selection of the arcane casters that become a cakewalk using some little used spells.

A good example of this is Stealthy Reposession - a quest that is usually such a pain many characters save it for favor runs late in their career, but one that is so simple to complete even on elite with two casters who can hypnotise and cast deep slumber (toss in a bard and fascinate for good measure).

How do you balance for something like that? You can't.

You shouldn't either.

Granted i'd like to see a day where they find a good way to make people have to play through most of the low end content in order to get to the higher end content. They missed the boat on this. They should have designed the game so that each of the quest giving NPC's wouldn't give their quest unless you've completed one or two prerequisite quests. The biggest problem I find right now is that people would rather do a handful of popular quests multiple times and will only come back to the rest for favor later. But that's a whole other thread.

If you want to make the game more of a challenge, limit your party size to four. Form a "4-man group" guild.

GeneralDiomedes
06-24-2007, 01:05 PM
All I'm saying is make elite, elite. Even just them locking us in, no recalling on elite would be enough. Minor change, but huge impact. There are a few of us hardcore players that want to have the feeling of acomplishment.

If you are truly hardcore check out the Sublime on Thelanis or Extreme Explorers on Sarlona. Both good permadeath guilds.

Shecky
06-24-2007, 02:17 PM
Dont get me wrong, I am not saying all of DDO is a cake walk now. Especially that white dragon thing (beast). Definitly some VERY cool options out there. I have another example for you. When the quest in house D (think they moved it to k? now.. The church, where u get the ingots) first came out we needed some serious tactics to take that place out on elite (remember the cap was still only lvl10). High AC intimi-tank, high DC CC wizzie, paly with full arua's, bard etc.. That was a quest you had to plan for to complete without recalling (which I think is cheating, I wish we would be locked in, atleast on elite). I think I need more of that fear of death. I dont have it now. Just recall and go back.

All I'm saying is make elite, elite. Even just them locking us in, no recalling on elite would be enough. Minor change, but huge impact. There are a few of us hardcore players that want to have the feeling of acomplishment.

I agree that there's a much greater feeling of oooooooh when you KNOW it's win-or-die. But again, if that's what you're looking for, it's so much more easily done if the party/guild running the quest sets the ground rules (in your case, no recalling, level-appropriate gear, etc.). Let's face it - there are a LOT of MMO players out there who are just out to get the best / be the best / beat the best / etc. and would probably have a conniption if all those things got readjusted to fit the hardcore approach. This way, they can do what they want, and with a little bit of discussion, you can do it with your method. Trust me when I tell you that I'm not saying you're wrong (it's an attractive thing - years of PnP give that rush and I like it); it's just that it would tick off a lot of people if it were readjusted to fit your perfectly reasonable viewpoint.

*shrug* Find some trustworthy, like-minded people and create your own hardcore pseudo-server. You just might convert some people, too. :)

Dkmafia
06-25-2007, 03:53 AM
What I am noticing is the gear is inching up incrementally in power with levelling but the characters are advancing in power much more rapidly.

In preparation for level 20 development, what the devs really could not do is re-align enhancements, the spell system, and the equipment simultaneously. 1) It is just too many factors to take into account and 2) the players would not stand for it. So instead of the cold-turkey approach, we seem to be experiencing a evolutionary re-alignment.

I get the feeling that as we progress to 20, characters will be closer to 1/2 gear, 1/2 build when it comes to character power.

You know I acually never thought of that. That gives me a somthing to look forward to. I know in an MMO you cant take away, or atleast it's hard to. So I am just blowing hot air. But I dont see how much more powerful the gear can go, so mabye at 20 it wont be so bad.

Shecky
06-25-2007, 06:31 AM
You know I acually never thought of that. That gives me a somthing to look forward to. I know in an MMO you cant take away, or atleast it's hard to. So I am just blowing hot air. But I dont see how much more powerful the gear can go, so mabye at 20 it wont be so bad.

That's one of the built-in limiters in PnP and the reason that melees rule PnP in the lower levels but casters rule in higher levels - gear just doesn't keep advancing.