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View Full Version : PETITION: to make all raids repeatable like titan and stormreaver are already



Drfirewater79
06-20-2007, 01:46 PM
Hey there folks at DDO development

i have never been more impressed with your work up as i am with giant hold

what i want to know is when are you gonna go back and make the other raids work as easy

this is in hopes that others will see and add there comments in hopes that you will see and fix what i consider a minor issue with major benifits to you and all the gamers in ddo

Stormreaver and Titan awakes both have a reset timer that does require you to complete all the pre portion parts to repeat the raid

I LOVE THIS ... not because of anything other then really once your capped loot is all you have to look for in an MMO nothing you can really do about that its just the nature of the game

but i think its silly to ask a party of 12 people to run through all the vons form for von5 and beat the dragon for two pecies of random loot or even worse to get 12 people to do offering of blood chamber or rayum-de chains of flame and the pre raid in order to kill the demon queen .....

when will these other raids be updated to todays standard

it would be nice to do red dragon for items but really its to much of a bore to go through all of the vons for "ok" items that i have to beat out 6-12 other people for after spending 2-3 hours doing pre vons and its definatly not worth doing all of the desert just for a 2 in 12 chance at some decent loot

however it would be more worth it to do these raids if the had resets like titan and stormreaver raids


please anyone who is checking this out at least say you agree or dont agree and why the more people who reply the better chance we have to make this a reality

ideas i am ok with as alternatives ( can only repeat certian raids if capped otherwise have to do pre req's again, Pay a fee of 100,000 gold to repeat without doing pre req's)

if you have any other compramise ideas please post them too who knows what the devs have in plan for future but if we dont speak up we will never get it

sirgog
06-21-2007, 10:19 AM
I think once you have done the raid on Elite, and all the pre-raid quests on Elite, IMO you should be able to repeat the raid without doing any pre-reqs. I've never been able to put together a party to run the VONs in my time playing this game from level 1 thru to level 14 (just got there :-) ), as players generally prefer running the GH quests on repeat rather than old end-game quests.

Impaqt
06-21-2007, 10:24 AM
I think once you have done the raid on Elite, and all the pre-raid quests on Elite, IMO you should be able to repeat the raid without doing any pre-reqs. I've never been able to put together a party to run the VONs in my time playing this game from level 1 thru to level 14 (just got there :-) ), as players generally prefer running the GH quests on repeat rather than old end-game quests.

What level you complete it on should have no Bearing on anything......

But to the OP.. Yes, i agree that VON and AtDQ should be updated.... I Really dont understand why the DQ Pre-Raid is only 6 man as well.... Not that It needs tp be 12....

I dont mind Repeating Von5/6 together... But 1-4... yawn.... Whats the point?

ccheath776
06-21-2007, 10:41 AM
I wholly disagree. The only raid flagging that I have a problem with is the demon queen. Its very annoying.

Reaver flagging. At first I thought was terrible but in the end its actually not that bad. 20 relics of each, then do a 6-man and thats it forever.

Titan flagging - By far the easiest. Run 3 quests and done.

Velah dragon - You know people talk smack on this flagging but honestly. I enjoy running von 1- 4. It's always a nice calm fun - run with my guild. Specially with level 14's running it on normal unleashing holy terror on what was once such a grinding terrible chain. And let me tell you. I dont care what anyone says. Watching that red insano dragon fall still gives me chills. Its by far the closest to a straight up fight. Not push button A knock pillar B to get C like the reaver or Titan.

Aspenor
06-21-2007, 10:43 AM
Agreed. Running the 4 desert quests is just freakin annoying. And vons 1-4...blah.

Jhareth_of_house_No
06-21-2007, 10:48 AM
For the VON series, I don't mind running 1-4. Considering the plot of the quest however, I don't see why it matters which order you run 1-4 in. It would be easier to get dragon ready (not that it's that hard to begin with...) if you could join a group for whichever quest you needed instead of re-running VON 1-3 because you had to log off before doing VON4...

Mr._Dna
06-21-2007, 11:03 AM
I COULDN'T AGREE MORE.

This is the reason the Titan and the Stormreaver are the only 2 raids I really care about anymore. And yeah, the DQ is the worst of them all. We're talking about roughly 3 hours of questing just to get into the raid each time. It's pretty out of hand.

/signed

DKerrigan
06-21-2007, 11:09 AM
Best idea I've heard in a while...nevermind that you're a guildie... ;)

Litz
06-21-2007, 11:24 AM
I believe all raids flagging should be identical. This means EVERY raid including TS. This will avoid confusion when its time to form a pug group or add pugs to your raid. You don't need to describe things, and quiz them on thier quest journal. Infact it'd be cool if you could inspect someone and see if they are on that progression or not (I'll probabley get a "Thats to hard to impliment" excuse but oh well).

The other reason this is needed is as DDO grows older we should expect some things to become standard. TS and Velah we can kind of understand that there would be issues because of the world being new. Titan and DQ should have been at least identical to each other, but I guess they were still developing. The stormreaver should be the standard moving forward because by now they should have all the nuances and bugs worked out, and should be as they invision the game. That said I hate the Stormreaver flagging process because of the collectable thing. Its a annoying part of the game that is not needed. I believe they put it in to make people do the quest in the ruins besides the required 3, but you really don't have to still. You could run the main 3 every time until you get the items needed or just buy them from the AH. In the mean time the things take up my inventory space. Because the content is limited people will be running all the missions at some point, requireing them to jump through hoops is just a big dog & pony show. Let us do the missions we want in the order we want. In the least make the collectables do something while they are stacked in your inventory like "anti-gravity" accumilating more of these items decreasses your encumberance. Something like that or something else cool that makes it worth while to be a pack rat.

DKerrigan
06-21-2007, 11:28 AM
I believe all raids flagging should be identical. This means EVERY raid including TS. This will avoid confusion when its time to form a pug group or add pugs to your raid. You don't need to describe things, and quiz them on thier quest journal. Infact it'd be cool if you could inspect someone and see if they are on that progression or not (I'll probabley get a "Thats to hard to impliment" excuse but oh well).
Like a /raid command that would list the raids that each party member is ready for? It'd be a lot to go through but I'm sure it'd be better than "20 questions".:)

The other reason this is needed is as DDO grows older we should expect some things to become standard. TS and Velah we can kind of understand that there would be issues because of the world being new. Titan and DQ should have been at least identical to each other, but I guess they were still developing. The stormreaver should be the standard moving forward because by now they should have all the nuances and bugs worked out, and should be as they invision the game. That said I hate the Stormreaver flagging process because of the collectable thing. Its a annoying part of the game that is not needed. I believe they put it in to make people do the quest in the ruins besides the required 3, but you really don't have to still. You could run the main 3 every time until you get the items needed or just buy them from the AH. In the mean time the things take up my inventory space. Because the content is limited people will be running all the missions at some point, requireing them to jump through hoops is just a big dog & pony show. Let us do the missions we want in the order we want. In the least make the collectables do something while they are stacked in your inventory like "anti-gravity" accumilating more of these items decreasses your encumberance. Something like that or something else cool that makes it worth while to be a pack rat.Or just allow the player to turn them in as they are acquired, and have the collector keep a running tab of how many you have left to turn in...

chimerasplice
06-21-2007, 11:28 AM
I am totally new to this game still, but I will never run any raid more than once that requires me to rekey every time i want to run it. It is just BAD game design. Raiders after 10 runs of anything are going to be bored with the raid itself...and you are going to make them grind 6 hours of a quest chain+raid just for one chance at drops? Do you not want people to raid in this game? Not even everquest was this tedious, and they had month-long key quests, but at least i did not need to grind them each time i wanted to raid, and they opened more than one boss.
I get the feeling each aspect of this game was designed in a bubble and each developer didnt get to see what the others were working on until the game was released. quests=good, overall mechanics=ok, pvp/diplomatic skills=why are they there, raids=designed by a bean counter, druids/monk=where are they

Cinwulf
06-21-2007, 11:45 AM
/agree with OP

Broto
06-21-2007, 11:49 AM
Since we have to wait 3 days inbetween raids I also agree. Please don't force us to repeat pre-quests. And while we are on the subject please add red dragon scales/armor to Velah!

Yaga_Nub
06-21-2007, 12:40 PM
Since we have to wait 3 days inbetween raids I also agree. Please don't force us to repeat pre-quests. And while we are on the subject please add red dragon scales/armor to Velah!

Now that is a great idea!

Cyr
06-21-2007, 04:29 PM
Maybe a flag on your character when you beat the raid or when you are two levels higher than it. Logic being, The Kundarak dwarf says, "Ah that pesky Velah has come back, looks like you need to do a better job killing her next time guys:)" Or the Djinn says, "Ah you are renowned heroes of the land surely you have no need to prove yourself worthy to destroy the demon queen."

Seriosly, why force a grind? In my opinion there is no reason why capped toons should not be able to get all the raid loot from lower level raids without too much extra annoyance. If the loot is too powerful compared to the new loot, then perhaps the new loot was gimped? :) I'm talking to you cloudburst << sword of shadows. Hehe, at least we didn't get a new docent in the reaver raid that was useless.

Bladededge123
06-21-2007, 05:45 PM
I absolutely agree with this. I'd love to be able to do the dragon raid, and my guild still does some but..thats the whole point my -guild- does it some. Older raids like that only get done by guilds who have poeple who are willing to run though quests together consistently so you DO have 12 poeple who are ready to do VON5-6 or however many you take in.

I've never done von1-4, and why? Because I've never seen a group open for the ones I need (they will do 3, or 3-4, but never 1-4 in a row..) And starting my own pug? yah no. Back when it first opened, and the dragon loot was the first list of loot that worked like that, it made sense. Now though? No, its time to retire the old system and update it. Heck, the 'newest' big raid should be on that system with the older ones being less restrictive, and thus encouraging for newer players or indeed those casual players who are never ready/willing to zerg through the new stuff the moment it comes out.

I'd love to see the dragon die..or even die fighting it..but as of right now, but as things are now I may never get too with anyone but my guild. How does this encourage new players? Not everyone likes playing in guilds. I don't mind the newer stuff being alot more guild friendly..but how long has the dragon raid been here? I'd say more then long enough to make it more new player/casual player friendly.

Just my two cents.

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 06:01 PM
I've never done von1-4, and why? Because I've never seen a group open for the ones I need (they will do 3, or 3-4, but never 1-4 in a row..)
Gah. What's the problem?

Do you have a level 14 character? Go solo von1-4, for crying out loud. If that's too hard (and it's a little tough), invite one other level 14 character to go with you, and it'll be easy. DDO is a multiplayer game. If you cannot get 1-3 other people to play with you for 30-60 minutes, then you can't expect the game to work for you.

How someone can think they have a basis to complain about these things when they've never even tried it is beyond me.

SaberMonkey
06-21-2007, 06:06 PM
/Signed

Jaywade
06-21-2007, 06:20 PM
I don't mind the redoing the vons (and I do the dragon a lot) in fact I uselly run a clock to see how quick we can do run through the chain of 1-4.. 42 mins is by best time w/ a party of 4.... 38mins with a full 6, the dq is terrible and I rarely run the dq because of it, didn't know the titan was the same way but's that cool, it would be nice if all the raids could be made this way but that may be opening a can of worms programing wise....

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 06:29 PM
I don't mind the redoing the vons (and I do the dragon a lot) in fact I uselly run a clock to see how quick we can do run through the chain of 1-4.. 42 mins is by best time w/ a party of 4.
I can complete Offering of Blood, Wizard-King, and Chains of Flame in under 40 minutes (not counting time spent running to the quests, which adds another 10)

Try it; it's not that hard.

Hydro
06-21-2007, 07:02 PM
Completely agree let's remove the pre missions for Von 1-4 and DQ2, you can leave in DQ1 if you want and of course Von 5 but having to do Wiz King and Chains and Blood for the 50th time is old and is why my guild has stopped running those raids.

Also love the idea about red Dragon scales.

Tija
06-21-2007, 07:26 PM
How about a bit of a spin on the OP.

Only those who pull an item from the end chest are required to run the pre-req quests again. (click yes to the pickup item from chest prompt and your quest chain is reset)

May help with the need/greed issues that some people have had when rolling for the end items, ppl may be more inclined to not roll on an item for greed knowing that they will have to run the whole series again, when they can just jump on the next raid to get the item they actually NEED.

zombie_steve
06-21-2007, 07:34 PM
I myself like the idea of having to pay 25k Plat for each quest skipped to get to the preraid.

100k for Von 1-4 or 50 for just Von 1 or 2

75k for all three DQ



Or let people skip them at a cost of a double wait time to redo the raid.

Alavatar
06-21-2007, 08:26 PM
I myself like the idea of having to pay 25k Plat for each quest skipped to get to the preraid.

100k for Von 1-4 or 50 for just Von 1 or 2

75k for all three DQ



Or let people skip them at a cost of a double wait time to redo the raid.

I don't know if you mean 'Pay 25kpp per quest 1 time for perm. quest skipped' or 'Pay 25kpp each time you want to skip the quest'.

A great compromise between Turbine and the community would be the latter, but not 25kpp. More like 25kgp I think would be reasonable. And make it so you can't skip the quest without having completed it at least once before.

And make it so you can buy off your wait time at the cost of XXXplat per day purchased dependant on the raid.

Jyvva
06-21-2007, 09:39 PM
when will these other raids be updated to todays standard

And what is that? Uber twinkness?
Gianthold dropped the quality of this game about, oh... a hundred fold.
Sorry, MHO....this game is officially broken.

Y'know, the whole concept of actually working towards getting something of quality...that really doesn't exist any longer. If it ever did.
Paralyzers, vorpals, banishers, tomes...dropping like flies.
But now...yawn...we have to still run VONs 1-4 to get the dragon loot.
The horror...the horror.
Turbine is practically handing out the good ****, and you still want it to be easier?

I really don't understand posts like this. You have your cake, you're eating and you're looking at another cake for seconds.
Instead of asking for timers so you don't have to run quests, why not ask for the quests to be harder? More of a challenge?

You'd run POP twenty times in a row without a second thought since it's an instant reward. But because you have to put in effort to gain a reward in older quests, they're outdated and need to be simplified to suit the current immediate gratification mentality.

/not signed

bobbryan2
06-21-2007, 09:45 PM
And what is that? Uber twinkness?
Gianthold dropped the quality of this game about, oh... a hundred fold.
Sorry, MHO....this game is officially broken.

Y'know, the whole concept of actually working towards getting something of quality...that really doesn't exist any longer. If it ever did.
Paralyzers, vorpals, banishers, tomes...dropping like flies.
But now...yawn...we have to still run VONs 1-4 to get the dragon loot.
The horror...the horror.
Turbine is practically handing out the good ****, and you still want it to be easier?

I really don't understand posts like this. You have your cake, you're eating and you're looking at another cake for seconds.
Instead of asking for timers so you don't have to run quests, why not ask for the quests to be harder? More of a challenge?

You'd run POP twenty times in a row without a second thought since it's an instant reward. But because you have to put in effort to gain a reward in older quests, they're outdated and need to be simplified to suit the current immediate gratification mentality.

/not signed


Umm... what?

Running the dragon isn't instant gratification.

You seem to have a problem with anything that could possibly help people get anymore loot. Sooo.... I can't see me agreeing with anything you type... Running VON 1-4 serves no purpose but to annoy you.

Jyvva
06-21-2007, 09:49 PM
Running the dragon isn't instant gratification.

That's what I said:

"You'd run POP twenty times in a row without a second thought since it's an instant reward. But because you have to put in effort to gain a reward in older quests (i.e.:dragon), they're outdated and need to be simplified to suit the current immediate gratification mentality."



You seem to have a problem with anything that could possibly help people get anymore loot. Sooo.... I can't see me agreeing with anything you type... Running VON 1-4 serves no purpose but to annoy you.

VON 1-4 serves my purpose perfectly.
I guess you misread me.

bobbryan2
06-21-2007, 10:11 PM
VON 1-4 serves my purpose perfectly.
I guess you misread me.

So, the purpose of 1-4 is to simply annoy people? And you are against a change that allows people to stop running quests that they've run so many times they get 0 xp...

Oh yeah... what a great idea.

About the best you can say about 1-4 is that it's a time sink... but it's not even all that effective, as the raid timer itself takes care of the time sink issue.

It needs to be updated because better mechanics have been invented.

Devorpa
06-22-2007, 12:58 AM
/signed

The OP idea is sound.

Quite a few people in this thread seem to be forgetting that they still can choose to do the pre-raids if they want to. The OP offers choice to the players. They can choose to do their re-runs of the raids like the existing titan set up OR they can choose to rerun the prequests.

There are a range of rigid rules/'features' in DDO that could be relaxed to offer more choice to the players (without corrupting the overall DDO concept) in order to lower irritation levels and increase player numbers. The OP's suggestion is just another one of these suggestions.

At least Turbine took up the suggestion that the teleporters in Stormreach should have a choice of destination rather than a fixed rotation system - that was a small change to reduce irritation ....

JD2134
06-22-2007, 01:47 AM
Here here. And if the want the can still make VOn5 and the prequeen still reequired just take out the other ****

ChildrenofBodom
06-22-2007, 02:53 AM
/SIGNED!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I did the demon queen today, and we killed the queen, then the archers finished everyone off, omg........so now i have to do all 3 of those dumb quests and have to wait 3 days and no body got the loot from the queen since the archers killed everyone after she died. We had a ranger that was suppose to kill them, but the queen used her telekinesis and flung him into the lava......Could ya make the dq so that the quest isn't completed til all enemies are dead plz?

and again /SIGNED!!!!!!!

I might make a thread about the problem i stated above.

Riggs
06-22-2007, 03:55 AM
signed

The von series is actually some interesting quests, with varied and intersting dynamics....the first 10 times.

After that HAVING to run them, over and over and over and over again just to get to the dragon is really really annoying. Beholders are annoying at the best of times. And they dont give any rewards like all the other quests do, you do 5 prequests, then the raid, and get 1 end reward, which if your lucky, is level 8 and not level 4 or 6. So not worth it it is so far from funny you cant see that far.

Almost never see people posting for demon queen or even preraid quests, or if they do the posts sit there, with 2-3 people, sometimes for 2 hours not getting filled. No one wants to run constant prequests to do the raid.

As was requested many times before - DDO needs more raids like Tempest, no prequests, just a big raid with 12 people where everyone gets chests and no annoying mechanics like 'if you fall off your out and no loot for you'.

So...signed.

Elfvyra
06-22-2007, 04:29 AM
Not Signed. It's really simple. If you don't want to run the quests to get to the raid, don't. If you do want to do the Raid, for whatever reason, go out and do them. Heck, maybe even help someone else who needs them for favor or just to get Raid ready...

I try to run the VoNs and Desert Quests once a week, with a raid on the weekend. And almost every week there's someone with a 'toon that needs it for Favor or has never run it who joins. The rest of the week I try and run quests that I need for favor, or my friends need for favor. I'm just not much of a loot farmer, I guess.... ;)

sirgog
06-22-2007, 05:54 AM
How about a bit of a spin on the OP.

Only those who pull an item from the end chest are required to run the pre-req quests again. (click yes to the pickup item from chest prompt and your quest chain is reset)

May help with the need/greed issues that some people have had when rolling for the end items, ppl may be more inclined to not roll on an item for greed knowing that they will have to run the whole series again, when they can just jump on the next raid to get the item they actually NEED.



Best idea I've heard on this thread. Brilliant! Genius!

Mad_Bombardier
06-22-2007, 12:08 PM
How about a bit of a spin on the OP.

Only those who pull an item from the end chest are required to run the pre-req quests again. (click yes to the pickup item from chest prompt and your quest chain is reset)

May help with the need/greed issues that some people have had when rolling for the end items, ppl may be more inclined to not roll on an item for greed knowing that they will have to run the whole series again, when they can just jump on the next raid to get the item they actually NEED.Wunderbar! :cool: No raid loot = no need to reflag!

Drfirewater79
06-24-2007, 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by Broto
Since we have to wait 3 days inbetween raids I also agree. Please don't force us to repeat pre-quests. And while we are on the subject please add red dragon scales/armor to Velah!

I love this idea

Supprising we have yet to hear from a dev about the possibility of this being looked at

after all its not like we can do every quest in parties of 12 and getting together in the biggest parties possible to strive after the biggest power is kinda what MMO's are known for am i not right?

story line is a good excuse as to why not do it but at the same time MMO's are about the story line the first time

i have heard some good ideas like perhaps havin to beat it on elite in order t unlock repeat option

i like it but would rather see it come up like this

once beat on a certian difficulty repeating is possible at that difficulty only meaning if you beat it on normal you will not beable to repeat on hard right away and once beat on elite i think we should bable to unlock another raid quality i would like to call loot difficulty

a harder then elite raid only difficulty which would have 4 stones at the end instead of 2 and in the chest will have 1 of all available items in chest meaning 4 people can choose one of any of the items in the chest

you could double the hp of all elite monsters meaning even easy raids like von 5-6 would require 12 member maxed level toons to make through safely and you could add traps where there where none on elite so people will have to really work hard to get there but not impossible once you over level the raid meaning if its a 10th lvl raid on loot difficulty it would be a lvl 13 raid meaning lvl 14 toons shoud beable to do it without more then say three party wipes and really good parties would beable to get through without any but a lvl 14 raid would be lvl 17 near impossible to defeat by a lvl 14 party but as the levels go up to 16-20 they will be more achievable

what this does is allows even the not so good low level raid loot will be gathered easier for high level characters (who should have better items by then and prolly just collecting at that point) while making it worth while to defeat raids on elite (something almost no one ever does because its not worth it currently for anything other then favor) this also adds a challenge for experienced parties at level

just an idea

Drfirewater79
06-24-2007, 05:34 PM
How about a bit of a spin on the OP.

Only those who pull an item from the end chest are required to run the pre-req quests again. (click yes to the pickup item from chest prompt and your quest chain is reset)

May help with the need/greed issues that some people have had when rolling for the end items, ppl may be more inclined to not roll on an item for greed knowing that they will have to run the whole series again, when they can just jump on the next raid to get the item they actually NEED.

didnt know people still had need before greed issues???

that is why people run raids with guilds that work upon the same guidlines

the reason i dont agree with this however is not for the reason of need vs greed

cause this actually can make greed a bigger issue

once someone has all the items they need they will no longer want to do all the missions just so you can get yours instead doing things in a matter that require everyone to get together for a chance at more people getting loot allows the posibility that the others will be willing to help just cause its faster but meanwhile either way only way you are gonna get the items you are looking for is by getting your guild to take you through it and hope that non of them need the items that pop up so you can get it instead

another problem i have is the level of loot we get in raid chests i think we need better loot in the end chests of raids too (not the raid chest but the other chests) at least make the loot table of those chests +3 or +4 so that they are worth beating the raids once you already have the items you need to help people want to help others achieve there goals and item sets

Riorik
06-24-2007, 06:16 PM
...And yeah, the DQ is the worst of them all. We're talking about roughly 3 hours of questing just to get into the raid each time. It's pretty out of hand.

/signed

Dude, three hours?

You know, as I think about it, I guess I can see how doing all 4 could be three full hours. On a full-on zerg, 1.5 hours is about normal - but three hours wouldn't be hard to get to depending on how much of a hurry the party is in.

Not as a further response to the above - but my own take on the raids as somebody that has done each of the older ones MANY times and the new one as often as my timer comes up.

I kinda like how each has it's own mechanic and flavor - and I see each as having been a learning experience for the developers to come up with something new to do that's better than it was previously.

Titan - obvious advantages over the Dragon - you run them ONCE and you can run them in any order at any time however the Forge is as long or longer than VON5 and the Titan still a bit iffy that it won't bug out.

Marilith - you don't get a freebie return, however, you still get to do them in ANY order you wish AND you can store up multiple completions. This last part is huge because you can mostly prep when it's convenient to do the prep often and then ADQ/Raid later.

Reaver - Different mechanic, all the prep work is done up front - we end up needing to run 30-40 quests to get a single character into the raid...items shared across characters AND players...a great opportunity for teamwork and guilds.

Dragon - last because it was first. It's really easy to do, nearly everyone has it memorized - can't say I've even bothered to run it (although I've done the prep) in many months. Only bad thing is, it's the old thing and it's no longer really a question as to whether we'll succeed or not.

I think the raid prep is fine as they are - no real need to tweak them and I think I appreciate their own unique mechanic for allowing players into them...yeah, this doesn't mean I'm a fan of the random loot system - that's still the pits.

Nax

AvatarJeffy
06-24-2007, 07:20 PM
Wow, how many of you have actually paid attention to the story lines involved with the raids? Gianthold, you only need to join the 3 groups, turn in your relics, and get blood of 3 dragons on you. For titan, you must assemble a sigil. This is why these raids only require you to do pre-req's only once. You will always have the sigil and you will always be a member of the 3 groups of GH. Von's 1-4 are you helping a mercenary band, so you in turn can garner their help in Von 5 to kill Velah in Von 6. When the quest timer resets, you must again help them to get their help. The situation is similar with Demon Queen. For you people who are so interrested in reaching the end with no appreciation for the journey can visit house J and do the original raid to your heart's content, as there is no timer and no pre-req's.

Boulderun
06-24-2007, 07:55 PM
Uh... when the whole issue is about repeating content, the "story requirement" argument doesn't even come anywhere close to being valid. In the context of the story, the titan is wrecked once, and it's done. Velah is killed once, and she's done. Since locking out the quests permanently is not an option, provisions have to be made for playability. At this point, those provisions need to include the elimination of excessive attunement requirements for the 50th repetition.

Luthen
06-24-2007, 08:03 PM
I got my fill of the responses by the end of the first page and decided to add my unoriginal thoughts to this thread. :D

First of all... congrats Devs on a fabulous raid with the Stormreaver. Though not the most difficult of raids once you know it my input is based on the entire quest. The lengths to which we're required to go to even get flagged for Stormreaver is great. Not to much but not to little. The quests we have to do for the items to flag are fun and can be difficult at times. The 6 man Blooding pre-raid for Stormreaver is also excellent and useful to run even after you get the blood from the dragons. So even after you're flagged for life peoiple still want to run the raids for loot or just for fun and the pre-raid for scales for some of the best armor in the game. A perfect score on this design in my opinion guys keep it up.

The Titan I have to disagree with the majority of my peers. The pre quests are boring and not worth running for the XP or the loot so nobody will ever do them otherwise and the pre-raid is annoying. Not difficult when you know it but just annoying and not needed. The Titan, to this day, is still buggy with the pillars screwing up still from time to time and the loot table is just not as well rounded as the DQ raid.

The Dragon I think everyone is right on about. VoN 1-4 are so completely unneccesary it's just a grind to do. Perhaps once you're at a level that no longer allows you to get XP from them or something you can simply bypass them. VoN 5 can be done quickly if you know it well but again is not needed for the raid but I guess we can deal with it but VoN 1-4 need to go or should be able to be bypassed once run X number of times or something.

The DQ is a fun raid. Sort of a straight up mash fest but provides some challenges. But this quest more then some needs to have the pre-flag quests done away with (Blood, Chains, Raiyum). Perhaps even making the 6 man pre raid into a 12 man pre-raid with a face lift that we run like VoN 5 or allowing us to just do the DQ instead of all this mindless un-fun eternal pre-flagging.

The Stormreaver shows that you do listen to what we want and it's appreciated by most if not all. Please keep up the good work along those lines. Do everyone a favor though. Stop with the Litany of the Dead series. Our tolerance can only be streched so far. Give the thing a raid finally and lets be done with it forever shall we? :D

Gimpster
06-24-2007, 08:16 PM
Uh... when the whole issue is about repeating content, the "story requirement" argument doesn't even come anywhere close to being valid. In the context of the story, the titan is wrecked once, and it's done.
It is PERFECTLY valid. You people seem to want to repeat the adventure without repeating the adventure.

If you need to kill a raid boss twice to get a second try at his loot, you should also have to repeat whatever requirements were needed to get there as well.

Asking to make all raids repeatable like Stormreaver / Titan is tantamount to asking for content to be removed from the game.

GAULSTON
06-24-2007, 11:13 PM
/petition signed. Have to agree with the OP here. Something definately needs to be changed in regards to raid prereqs for the dragon and DQ. Vons 1-4, once you've done them some 20-30 times, well...yawn...need i say more? DQ prereqs=annoying. Can't even get a raid party put together for this raid because the requirements are ridiculous and there are never enough people ready for DQ2. Always, some1 in the party needs 1 (or more) of the 3 prereqs and/or DQ1 before we can even think about DQ2. Don't know of any1 who runs DQ raids on a regular basis because it's too much of a pain to get a party (who are ALL DQ2 ready) put together with the time alotted. This raid and it's prereqs requires a set schedule (most likely w/guildies). But we all know how we feel bout schedules...they are for real life, not gamin. This raids prereqs should only need be completed once in my opinion. Don't mind havin to do vons 5-6 and DQ1&2 for a shot at raid loots. Seriosly tho, in regards to time and real life, who wants to yawn thru all those prereqs anymore with a slim shot at raid loot. My fear is that interest in these two raids will die. Only the consensus will tell, but from where I'm standin, it does not look good. The interest, that people do have in the titan and reaver raids, is just not there for the dragon and DQ raids, that much is obvious. A tell tale sign is the tavern nearest the raid. Plenty of players hangin round giant hold and the foot hold, but as of late (at least on my server), the desert and house K are ghost towns.

As a community, we have been screamin for an alternative to the current raid loot reward...er...um..,I mean lottery system. As it stands now, it is very primitive, and needs fixin. Many suggestions have already been offered, like the token system for example, and other suggestions I'm sure. The raid prereqs are just too many hoops to jump thru for a lotteries chance at a raid item. At some point, the game devs are gonna have to wonder if these prereqs are just as rewarding,...just as enjoyable a game play experience as the first time we ran them. I don't like feelin bored with the prereqs, so I just don't run them. The prereq quests should not just be a boring means to an end, i.e., raid loot, that is IF yer lucky enough to win the lottery. It's not as if the prereqs are too difficult, in fact, at higher lvls, they are all too easy. It is just silly to run and jump thru all the hoops repeatedly only to say "AWE, ----, I didn't get the raid loot I'd hoped for...again"

Devs, we are all still waitin for some sign, some acknowledgement from you on this issue. We know that you know that we know that you know:D that patience is wearin thin within the community,...so at least say SOMETHIN like "We are lookin into this issue" or "Keep your pants on, we're workin on it and a solution is near." Let us know, briefly even, that our suggestions are not fallin on deaf ears. As community members, we like to know that we play a part in the games development. Dev's, even tho we're frustrated, we're still in your corner, keep up the good work and thanks for all that you do.

GramercyRiff
06-24-2007, 11:18 PM
Yeah man signed for sure.

I'd even rather have this than Barbarians being able to drink lesser restoration pots while raging.

LIMBUS
06-25-2007, 08:32 AM
I dont mind pres too much, just fix the Titan raid. The puzzle/door room thingy is stupid, and so is the disappearing bridge thingy. Im usually half asleeep and wore out by the time we get there.

OKCRandy1
06-25-2007, 08:55 AM
I'm actually a fan of the Demon Queen set-up. You can collect the required artifacts, keep the extras, and you don't have to run the prerequisite quests in order. That sort of flexibility really helps in getting raid ready, i.e., it makes grouping easier which is what this game is all about. I'm not sure I'd like to see all the raid quests repeatable in the fashion some have suggested. The raid is part of an adventure and just doing the last part, while its expedient for computer gaming, hardly seems in keeping with D&D. Von 1-5 could use a make-over. I'm just not sure I've heard a good suggestion for the make-over that would still provide both computer gaming balance and be true to the content. What should be kept in mind is ease of grouping, since long quests require many multiple nights and different groups to complete.

Cinwulf
06-25-2007, 08:59 AM
It is PERFECTLY valid. You people seem to want to repeat the adventure without repeating the adventure.

If you need to kill a raid boss twice to get a second try at his loot, you should also have to repeat whatever requirements were needed to get there as well.

Asking to make all raids repeatable like Stormreaver / Titan is tantamount to asking for content to be removed from the game.

I don't see it like that at all. I see it as asking to remove the grind from the game.

bobbryan2
06-25-2007, 11:01 AM
Asking to make all raids repeatable like Stormreaver / Titan is tantamount to asking for content to be removed from the game.

No... the content would still be there.

It's tantamount to asking to not be required to run the same quests over and over again. With the time it takes me to run VON 1-4... I could go do something that would get me xp, or loot... or hell... just something fun.

Ranmaru2
06-25-2007, 11:07 PM
Dragon Raid:

VON 1 - MAX - 20 minutes
VON 2 - MAX - 20 minutes
VON 3 - MAX - 45 minutes
VON 4 - MAX - 15 minutes
TOTAL TIME - 100 Minutes/ 1 2/3 hours

Demon Queen:

Offering of Blood - MAX - 12 Minutes
Wiz King - MAX (When doing raid run) - 35 Minutes
Chains of Flame - MAX - 40 Minutes
Preraid - MAX - 45 Minutes
TOTAL TIME - 132 minutes/ 2 hours and 12 minutes

What are we complaining about now?

Emili
06-25-2007, 11:42 PM
Dragon Raid:

VON 1 - MAX - 20 minutes
VON 2 - MAX - 20 minutes
VON 3 - MAX - 45 minutes
VON 4 - MAX - 15 minutes
TOTAL TIME - 100 Minutes/ 1 2/3 hours

Demon Queen:

Offering of Blood - MAX - 12 Minutes
Wiz King - MAX (When doing raid run) - 35 Minutes
Chains of Flame - MAX - 40 Minutes
Preraid - MAX - 45 Minutes
TOTAL TIME - 132 minutes/ 2 hours and 12 minutes

What are we complaining about now?

Although the vons take half that time I'd have to agree with them that the raids are inconsistant. I'm at the point now that I detest the vons (having 75 dragon kills accross all my toons with but one ever recieving one piece of dragon loot - what can I say I only have designs on a few items there and roll crappy for them). That aside you figure out the math given the fact that many run and re-run von 1-4 many times to help others reach the same dragon ready status to do a quest at the end of the chain. Personally now I hate vons and only run them for my guildies and friends...

BereanMalachi
06-26-2007, 10:20 AM
The tediousness of the vons is at times overwhelming... especially with it being so hard to get a group. Trying to get dragon raid together is almost as impossible, because no- one is fully ready !! I agree with the OP Please make it likr the titan and the reaver. The demon queen raid pre reqs... offering of blood need i sayt more??? lets leave out the boring unorigional run all the way out to each of them again i agree with OP please bring this up to date!!!
By the way for the record I think 60 frigging relics are way tooo much to ask for !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Roland_D'Arabel
06-26-2007, 10:21 AM
/signed

stockwizard5
06-26-2007, 10:22 AM
I think that once you beat the raid boss - you should be able to just get the chest every three days :rolleyes:

ok, I admit that's silly and unneccessary grinding - really they should just mail you a random raid item from the chest every three days - ya - thats it :rolleyes:

Another thread I am the dumber for reading :(

Gimpster
06-26-2007, 01:10 PM
I think that once you beat the raid boss - you should be able to just get the chest every three days
Quoted for true. Quest chains to repeat a raid are content. If you don't like content, then sure, delete the quest chains.

arcane_nite
06-26-2007, 03:46 PM
Signed, for dragon and demon queen.

The pre req should be 150 favor in each house and the 3/4 pre quests to qualify for the raid. Once this has been completed it should be like titan and reaver. Thanks

Ranmaru2
06-26-2007, 04:42 PM
Although the vons take half that time I'd have to agree with them that the raids are inconsistant. I'm at the point now that I detest the vons (having 75 dragon kills accross all my toons with but one ever recieving one piece of dragon loot - what can I say I only have designs on a few items there and roll crappy for them). That aside you figure out the math given the fact that many run and re-run von 1-4 many times to help others reach the same dragon ready status to do a quest at the end of the chain. Personally now I hate vons and only run them for my guildies and friends...

I was doing maximum times..I know they can be done MUCH faster than that. but I was just doing the longest times. I dont mind redoing them as long as I dont have a slow group.

Borrigain
06-26-2007, 05:38 PM
/not signed

Now, I usually don't involve myself in this BS, but this thread just makes me sick.


And what is that? Uber twinkness?
Gianthold dropped the quality of this game about, oh... a hundred fold.
Sorry, MHO....this game is officially broken.

Y'know, the whole concept of actually working towards getting something of quality...that really doesn't exist any longer. If it ever did.
Paralyzers, vorpals, banishers, tomes...dropping like flies.
But now...yawn...we have to still run VONs 1-4 to get the dragon loot.
The horror...the horror.
Turbine is practically handing out the good ****, and you still want it to be easier?

I really don't understand posts like this. You have your cake, you're eating and you're looking at another cake for seconds.
Instead of asking for timers so you don't have to run quests, why not ask for the quests to be harder? More of a challenge?

You'd run POP twenty times in a row without a second thought since it's an instant reward. But because you have to put in effort to gain a reward in older quests, they're outdated and need to be simplified to suit the current immediate gratification mentality.

/not signed

Best post I've seen, and I'll even take it one farther.......

Make requirements necessary for EVERY raid! Von 1-4, check. DQ, check. But Titan, make the sigil go away, you have to repeat to build a new one. Reaver, finish equals quest reset. You have to repeat the 3 prior to the pre-raid again. (No need to collect all 20 relics, but I wouldn't mind if they did either). You want the end prize, work for it just like CO6 and Tangleroot.

WHY? Slow down you loot wh***s, that's why. You want all the toys in the game NOW, and if you get your way, you'll have them. And then what? You will complain when you have them. What to do now? Let's gripe about lack of content. "I want more raids now cuz I own every piece of raid loot so there is nothing left to uber-ize my character." Well, maybe if you had to spend the TIME to get those nice prizes, the game wouldn't be in it's current state of overinflation. Then maybe those items would MEAN something.

Let's face it...why would you want such a thing? Only one answer: I want my paycheck without doing any work. Well, take your welfare loving toons elsewhere, I prefer to work for my just desserts. And the gratification of actually accomplishing something is there too.

Ah heck, why do I bother, it's like p*ss*ng in the wind. Just make the game even easier why don't we?

And when you flame me, remember, I hate you too.
Borr.

Drfirewater79
06-27-2007, 02:11 AM
the problem isnt is it to easy or hard

my suggestion was to make it harder and rewards better for harder RAID the missions leading up to it are hardly worth the time so its near impossible to get a group

difficulty and weapon sets are not the point of the game its trying to get the most people together to share in the experience of the game

there are only so many raids as is and if no one wants to do the raids cause it takes to much time to prep and once people are preped they usually have to go so now you have to waste time taking others through in the hopes that everyone can still stick around for the raid.... doesnt make to much sence does it?

here are my suggestions for each set of raids

!) VON

Vons 1-4 need not repeat

reason: you have already done the work so story wise it doesnt make sence and there is no exp for a high level party that runs through it and loot sucks so to keep high level toons doing the mission you need to pass on it

plus the pre raid Von 5 is part of the misson Von 6 and collectivly already takes about 1 1/2 hours assuming you have a party of good to great players that know the mission well and a bunch of people willing to follow orders


2) Titan

is good the way it is it like von 5-6 you only have to repeat pre raid (twilight forge) and then you have the end raid where you fight the titan

this is the way all raids should be

3) Desert raid

much like Von series its not about easy or hard cause you can four man all the missions on normal with a great party of four most likely but doing all three missions and the pre raid take forever and a day to get a group to stick around for all three is impossible at times

i think that much like the other two raids mentioned you should only have to repeat the pre raid aspect

this woud (like it would for von) make it easier to get a group for and still make it worth it for the high level toon to complete and be raid ready also cause the pre raid takes about an hour and if you had two groups running at the same time it would take as long as a titan run or a dragon run in its self

4) stormreaver

I have to admit the loot nut in me say please leave it the way it is but all fairness says this is a little to much

i think that once your toon has picked up a end reward from the chest you should have to be re-blooded at least the mission it self takes like most of the pre raids about an hour and each dragon kill takes about 5-15 mins depending on the amount of dps in group totally fair to make it that you had to be re-blooded before each raid and that would also make it more popular to do pre raid missions and make it easier for people to acquire dragon scales bringing down there auction value (sorry your a moron if you pay 500k plat for a scale the mission is easy and really as hard as it is to get them its easier to get them then it is to get 500k plat)

5) Tempest Spine

the only mid level raid we have and no special chest no real endrewards no +2 stat tomes and no 2 people only items ..... maybe we should change this too would be nice to have some special items that dont suck for high level toons but dont super power low level toons that where available for use on lvl 6 or 8 toons

6) raids to come

keep this in mind we dont mind a hard challenge to get to the end boss we dont mind a challenge to defeat the end boss but remember one day the players are gonna be bored with the content of yesterday and officially no matter what anyone says a group of lvl 20's doing dragon for the boots would be funny as hell but i would prolly sleep through it even on my fighters and killing the dragon her self would only take two fighters at lvl 20 and one cleric just because of CR of the players is that much higher then that of the dragon

players will out level the raids but the raids still have to be doable for the level they are intended here is the trick

you need to figure out some way for high level toons to be able to enjoy low level raids enough to do them for end rewards alone and low level toons enough to want to do them for the challenge and exp

if you forget one or the other group all you do is make it rare that anyone even wants to do the raids and that takes out one of the better things this game has to offer

------------------------ -----------------------------

I think that some people however are right you shouldnt beable to just do the raids unless you have proven yourself in some way i agree that maybe it should be favor runned needing to get a certian amount of favor in the appropriate house to have gainned the trust of the clan that is sponsoring the raid (house k for dragon etc ...) that compramise would also promote favor runs which are not always hard to find a group for but at times hard to find a full group for ... this way even high level toons will want to favor run so they could more freely access raids

its not a matter of wanting things easy or harder its a matter of worth and time making its as worth it for the player who plays 2-4 hours a day as it is for the player who plays 6-10 hours a day

this is also a buy back feature for players that left the game cause alot of them quit because there wasnt enough people doing enough content to keep them interested cause even when there was no gianthold people didnt run dragon all that often outside of guild groups and most where attacking Desert raid more often spending days on end doing wiz king and pre raid as loot runs cause they didnt want to do all the missions again just to be raid ready

I personally work more in the 6-10 hours a day of ddo then i do the 2-4 range and i still find it near impossible to take toons into or through dragon and desert raids mainly cause no one wants to do the pre raid missions with the little time they have unless its for favor

maybe its just our server .... maybe its just our guild but most people i talk to my guild or not all say the same thing ..... only raid that is worth the time and effort is stormreaver and mean while the items out of there are good but nothing to dance and sing about with exception to maybe 3-5 items and tomes

i also think +3 tomes need to be added to all raid chests with exception to TS