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View Full Version : Not cool turbine, please fix



~Maui_86
06-20-2007, 10:41 AM
a real life friend of mine just started playing the game. he decided he wanted to play a rogue because it seemed like somthing fun.

not knowing much about the game he just started with a halfling because they looked rogue like and had rougue like abilities givin to them.

also not knowing much about how to mess with stats he just used the build they gave him without useing the custimise option.

well guess what turbines rogue build that they make for u cant evan do traps on normal because it starts u with a 10 int.

way to go turbine, my buddy didnt get a very warm welcome from other players because of ur build. evan though he put his points in the right places at lvls he still couldnt do any rogue abilities not evan on most quest on normal.

i just think that if turbine is gonna give u somthing u can start with. atleast make the build good enough to perform tasks on normal.

p.s in case u didnt know rogues first feat they give u is hamstring :( . and u start with a 10 int.

jaitee
06-20-2007, 10:45 AM
my 1st toon was a fighter and they gave him 18 str o.o

Impaqt
06-20-2007, 10:47 AM
Why didnt you help your friend create a Character? Especially if you knew he wasnt versed in PnP.... Not a Cool Friend......

Freeman
06-20-2007, 10:50 AM
Also, they have stated that they are lowering the DCs for traps for lower-level quests. Hopefully that will make their own starting build somewhat more feasible.(A 10 Int on a rogue is still bad though. I would say 14 should be the default)

From the WDA: "Reduced difficulty of detecting traps with Search and Spot, especially at low levels (5 and under)."

~Maui_86
06-20-2007, 10:50 AM
Why didnt you help your friend create a Character? Especially if you knew he wasnt versed in PnP.... Not a Cool Friend......

dude i didnt know he was gonna pick the game up for one and 2nd thats not the point.

im kinda thinkin if that happened to him there is a good chance that happened to others that decide to play a rogue as their first toon.

im just saying it kinda sucks for someone new to the game if u decide to play a rogue and havent played pnp and if ur gonna sit there and argue that it doesnt then u are just another one of those punks that just argue with posters to argue.

~Maui_86
06-20-2007, 10:52 AM
Also, they have stated that they are lowering the DCs for traps for lower-level quests. Hopefully that will make their own starting build somewhat more feasible.(A 10 Int on a rogue is still bad though. I would say 14 should be the default)

From the WDA: "Reduced difficulty of detecting traps with Search and Spot, especially at low levels (5 and under)."

good point but im still guessing a 10 int wont cut it. only time will tell

~Maui_86
06-20-2007, 10:57 AM
my 1st toon was a fighter and they gave him 18 str o.o

well that good and all i mean i can make a fighter with 14 str and still be able to hang in there on normal difficulty.

im just saying the rogue starter build should be changed. so that atleast u can do traps on normal diff.

Impaqt
06-20-2007, 10:58 AM
Is a Rogue witha 10 INT Useless? Absolutely Not...... Its it the "Right" Default... no.... Probobly not..... Charcaters can go is dozens.. If not Hundreds of Different Directions. Just because you dont like the direction Turbine chose as their default doesnt mean its wrong.....(Weird.. Manybe even Goofy.. Possibly Gimped even)

Just reroll the Character to what you want him to play.

captain1
06-20-2007, 11:00 AM
Why didnt you help your friend create a Character? Especially if you knew he wasnt versed in PnP.... Not a Cool Friend......



Oh so not fair.....He cant always be around to help his friend. If the game gives u a starter character it should have all the proper stats to function properly. As stated his friend is not well versed in PNP and Im sure any 1st timer looking to play an MMO, who picks DDO throws it in and picks a rogue would expect the game to pick eveything the character needs for him. A PNP education should not be required to play this game.

I cant say he didnt do something wrong as I cant go and attempt to build a character while the servers are down but I will try this later on.


It has nothing to do with being a bad friend. I can pop in most any game not understanding character creation rules and have the game auto select stats, gear, looks, everything and get a character that can perform all of his class skills properly...not blow every trap because hes not smart enough.

Like I said to be sure I need to look at what it does 1st and if there is a problem i will bug report it.

~Maui_86
06-20-2007, 11:01 AM
Is a Rogue witha 10 INT Useless? Absolutely Not...... Its it the "Right" Default... no.... Probobly not..... Charcaters can go is dozens.. If not Hundreds of Different Directions. Just because you dont like the direction Turbine chose as their default doesnt mean its wrong.....(Weird.. Manybe even Goofy.. Possibly Gimped even)

Just reroll the Character to what you want him to play.

oh okay so u think its okay for turbine to give new players coming into the game a rogue build that cant do any rogue abilities on norm diff quests?

Sue_Dark
06-20-2007, 11:08 AM
Just reroll the Character to what you want him to play.

Now that has got to be the single worst statement I have ever seen.

The very first question anyone should be asking is, simply, is your friend having fun playing this character? It is a definitely non-optimal build, but if fun is the goal and fun is reached then to heck with all the nay sayers. Most of the time, my rogue doesnt get a chance to disarm traps before the party has moved thru and onward anyway, so why worry about them at all. (Of course I do laugh a bit, inside, when someone who said it wasnt a big deal lies dead in the trap)

OP- If your friend is NOT enjoying the build granted him as a pre-made, I would suggest referring him to the rogue forum here to learn a little bit about building a rogue and then he should rebuild with an enlightened mind as to what people expect of a rogue and where the consensus is that his stats/skill should be set. Then after obtaining that knowledge, if he chooses an 18 str/cha 10 dex/int rogue, more power to him. Educate the new player, dont beat them up or tell them what to play. If they ask for help or suggestion then you are free to offer what your experience has taught you.

~Maui_86
06-20-2007, 11:19 AM
Now that has got to be the single worst statement I have ever seen.

The very first question anyone should be asking is, simply, is your friend having fun playing this character? It is a definitely non-optimal build, but if fun is the goal and fun is reached then to heck with all the nay sayers. Most of the time, my rogue doesnt get a chance to disarm traps before the party has moved thru and onward anyway, so why worry about them at all. (Of course I do laugh a bit, inside, when someone who said it wasnt a big deal lies dead in the trap)

OP- If your friend is NOT enjoying the build granted him as a pre-made, I would suggest referring him to the rogue forum here to learn a little bit about building a rogue and then he should rebuild with an enlightened mind as to what people expect of a rogue and where the consensus is that his stats/skill should be set. Then after obtaining that knowledge, if he chooses an 18 str/cha 10 dex/int rogue, more power to him. Educate the new player, dont beat them up or tell them what to play. If they ask for help or suggestion then you are free to offer what your experience has taught you.


no he said he didnt have very much fun at all in fact he was made fun of by some others in the group. i helped him make a new build and now he is back to having fun .

i just rolled a charector using what turbine has given u to start with as a halfling rogue and am running through the lvl one quest on norm to see if maybe by spending action points smarter it is a liable build.

Zenako
06-20-2007, 11:32 AM
Couple of points here. It seems that pretty much everyone so far is viewing rogues as being Trapmonkeys first, and everything lese later. What are the other starting stats for the default rogue? I do not know off hand, but if they only have a 10 INT then they must have some nice numbers elsewhere. What about rogues using UMD a lot (CHA)? or being STRONG complimentary fighters with great DPS (STR and / or DEX)? INT and WIS both come into play for finding and taking down traps depending on how much Spot and Search activity needs to go on.

In my view a starting matrix should enable a new player to explore all the various aspects of the class. They will not be optimal for anything, but then again should be able to do most everything at some level.

Was the rogue running in level appropriate quests when they were found to be lacking in certain skills? How did the player spend his skill points? Were those also reasonably used in the default template for rogues? Again since I am a D&D geek, I never even considered the default settings.

I can tell you that if you have a nominal 1st level rogue running around in a level 4 quest (level 2 on Elite for example) they will have trouble unless they are also twinked up a bit in design or gear.

What you do gain for insight from the default templates is a little idea of how the designers view that character class.

Talcyndl
06-20-2007, 11:36 AM
Just an FYI, that starting intelligence is only the default for Halfling. The elven default has an intel of 14 IIRC.

But regardless, it's an idiotic build if someone wants a "rogue" - ie, a character which can at least do the majority of traps.

:rolleyes:

Pellegro
06-20-2007, 11:37 AM
I think the OP has a very good point.

If this game has any hope of attracting adn keeping new players, it can't have "default" builds that can't even do the relevant class tasks on normal.

The default rogue build should have sufficient INT and DEX, and an appropriate skill point allocation and feat selection, to make it playable at level 1.

Otherwise, any new blood we ever get will run away in frustration.

Hopefully Turbine will take an afternoon to review the default builds and make sure they are tenable and in keeping with the iconic skills/abilities of the various classes.

ahpook
06-20-2007, 11:51 AM
I'll second this request. The rogue default build is singularly bad. The rogue build tips even say that Int is an important stat and they give the default build a lousy 10 points:eek:? The only reason to play that build is if you trying to accomplish something very unusual. That player is not a new player using a default build.

Telling a new player to reroll right after they hit level 2 (or 3) is no way to get a new player excited by the game.

pcgammerm
06-20-2007, 11:55 AM
while i agree that 10 int for a rog is too low, but more importantly is the skill allocation. even with 10 int a rog should still be able to take care of traps on normal as long as the skills have been placed properly. anything higher then normal maybe a different story as well as if he is trying quests way over his lvl.


and hamstring as a first feat....*** were they thinking

captain1
06-20-2007, 11:59 AM
Prime Req for a rogue If u read it when u are building your character are highlight in Blue.

For rogues it says DEX, INT (auto rolling a 10 is unacceptable in either one)

Do that to any caster and you cant cast spells

Do that to a fighter who is not dex based and u will barely make 2nd level forget about 3rd without help getting thru quests.

If the generator is doing this it needs to be bug reported.

Any prime attribute should have enuff bonuses to aleast give u a +1 modifier

Vinos
06-20-2007, 11:59 AM
I don't know about you guys but the 1st character I made was hardly optimal and was more to learn about the game. Once I got my feet wet I re-rolled with a better idea of what I wanted to do. Seems like a natural progression to me. I also can't stand people who make fun of new players. Makes me sick. There are enough dumb people to laugh at so no reason to pick on the new folks.

Talcyndl
06-20-2007, 12:03 PM
I also can't stand people who make fun of new players. Makes me sick. There are enough dumb people to laugh at so no reason to pick on the new folks.


True. Although in this case, they were really making fun of Turbine for a really bad default halfling rogue build.

Impaqt
06-20-2007, 12:07 PM
Now that has got to be the single worst statement I have ever seen.

I didnt think I needed to put the /Sarcasm around that statement:rolleyes:

As far as we know the rouge could of been having a blast with his "Gimped" chraracter at this point.. and since the OP is not the Player character comlplaing, I figured he wanted his buddy to play a different way......

llevenbaxx
06-20-2007, 12:10 PM
while i agree that 10 int for a rog is too low, but more importantly is the skill allocation. even with 10 int a rog should still be able to take care of traps on normal as long as the skills have been placed properly. anything higher then normal maybe a different story as well as if he is trying quests way over his lvl.


and hamstring as a first feat....*** were they thinking

You would think so but it just aint the case. Having skills maxed out in DDO just means you are at the starting point. Having no pluses from your base stat will pretty much gaurentee you are going to fail as a rogue and often. Even if he had his spot/srch maxed out, with a 10 wisdom/int, I doubt he ever even saw the traps comin. Tight are the lower level DCs, they said they are looking into them though.

captain1
06-20-2007, 12:12 PM
while i agree that 10 int for a rog is too low, but more importantly is the skill allocation. even with 10 int a rog should still be able to take care of traps on normal as long as the skills have been placed properly. anything higher then normal maybe a different story as well as if he is trying quests way over his lvl.


and hamstring as a first feat....*** were they thinking



Unknowingly the 1st rogue I ever made had a 10 INT. I play with a friend of mine whenever possible and I made it to 5th level. I kept a count sause it was like a running joke ....of the 28 traps I tried to disable I managed to disable 1..... The other 27 exploded in my face. I have since deleted that character and made a fighter rogue combo that can do elite traps 2 levels above him (with some effort but reliably) and very often leads in kills. Both character maxed out their main skills every level. when your INT is low the critical failure range is expanded.

My 1st rogue was known to blow a trap on a roll of 18. My latest has only blown 1 trap (1 of the 2 boxes in the hidden shrine in VON 4) Most of the time I can successfully disarm a trap on a roll of 1 on the die.

10 Intelligence halfling vs. 18 Intelligence Drow

TreknaQudane
06-20-2007, 03:45 PM
Personally as a 'default' build, I'd stay away from 18's or 20's in any attribute.

A 14 intelligence is usually more than enough for any rogue, after that most points become a bit... excessive, atleast in my opinion.

Lorien_the_First_One
06-20-2007, 04:28 PM
All the default builds should be reasonable builds that aren't min/maxed but provide a playable balanced char for that Class. Its the only way that non D&D folks have any hope of getting a useable first char and sticking around long enough to become long term subscribers.