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sigtrent
06-19-2007, 01:28 PM
Nonsense ;)

I just wanted to share an expereince I had on sunday. My guild was doing some pop runs and we had a couple people call it for the night. Casting the net on guild chat we picked up a sorcerer and a wizard. This left us with 2 socrerers 1 wizard 1 cleric 1 paladin and a bard. This would not do. So we did some juggling of characters and came up with 2 socrerers 3 wizards and 1 cleric. Much better.

Laughing about it, we went in on elite to give it a try and see what would happen. Never had a faster or smoother POP run ever. One death (because the cleric was having too much fun using destruction). Took about 25 minutes (not a record time but we wern't trying to go especialy fast). Every room was easy as pie and the end took all of a 12 seconds to drop the WF.

We had a more clasicly balanced party before that and while we did fine, but it was much easier with the all caster party. My guild is not an elite fighting squad, were casual but enthusiastic players. None of these characters are sporting scads of raid loot or tomes on every stat. The sheer amount of CC or damage an all caster party can put out is insane! It boggles my mind how anyone can think arcane casters are weak.

Rentz
06-19-2007, 01:56 PM
i have absolutely no doubt that you simply 'pwnd' the dungeon.

however, I bet you all got garbage/useless/redundant chest and static rewards... am i right??

:P

i shelf'd my caster this weekend and stuck to my paladin... 3 paralyzers in 5 or 6 pop runs, and it was actually a tough decision on whether or not I should take the paras. but i digress.

for sheer offensive output a caster hasn't really lost anything with the recent updates.

Ghoste
06-19-2007, 02:05 PM
I am convinced that a party of all casters is the ultimate way to go.

To fine tune that, make sure they are all self healing (ie. wf wiz and sorcs) and that at least one or two can cast raise dead or use the scrolls.

There was a thread a while ago about getting an all wiz/sorc party together, and eventually decided to go with a wf only setup. Unfortunately it seemed to fall through.

here's the link to that thread. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=97321)

I have characters on Ghallanda (Ghoste, Raythe, Draugr) and Argo (Ghoste). If anyone's ever feeling up to some all caster runs, give me a shout.

sigtrent
06-19-2007, 03:07 PM
however, I bet you all got garbage/useless/redundant chest and static rewards... am i right??
.

Incorrect. We had a +2 paralyzing dwarven axe, and a +1 paralyzing club of pure good drop in the chests, along with lots of 'decent' stuff. End rewards included two +6 stat items, a banishing crossbow and a few other nice goodies.

theblaz
06-19-2007, 03:19 PM
Well, that settles it.

Casters are balanced.

What's next?

llevenbaxx
06-19-2007, 03:25 PM
I always wanted to try that but without a guild I figured it would be more of a pain to coord than it was worth. Will have to try it sometime. Have gone through PoP as a wizard with a sorc and a clr, that was some good caster dominating fun too.

Cowdenicus
06-19-2007, 03:27 PM
bah your all caster runs are meh.

Do it with all clerics, then you are so money.

WaltzInBlack
06-19-2007, 03:32 PM
Did you manage to dps your way through them before taking casualties or did you skip?

Bionca
06-19-2007, 03:35 PM
The vamp is fairly easy with a flesh to stone and then drop a nice fire wall on him and he dies prety fast that way.

Nonan
06-19-2007, 03:36 PM
The only issue is when you face a larger number of Red Named mobs that cant be fingered/destructed/PK'd/or Danced. One or 2 is ok, but after that the Squish in Squishy becomes apparent. Still Max and Extend the Firewalls and let the BBQ begin!!!!!!!!! I love it when I see 100's fly !!!!!

I also liek to try the dualing aggro between 2 Sorcs, take a named mob, and sorcs ping pong the mob bewteen them using Scorching Ray to draw aggro, try it sometime, you will like it!!!!

jkm
06-19-2007, 03:38 PM
or 6 firewalls with at least 1 or 2 critting for 350 a tick...

Pyromaniac
06-19-2007, 05:35 PM
We had a 5 sorc, 1 fighter group run through POP on the weekend - yes we had the fighter because we had no more sorcs on at the time.

It was tremendously fun, because we got to do what we do best, and didn't have yells for buffs or get told to stand outside and pull the levers.

Reminds me of a lowbie 5 paladin 1 mage run through stormcleave eons ago....lots of fun

BigNastyMP
06-19-2007, 06:12 PM
Congrats. I envy that party makeup.
Don't let SilverbladeTE see this thread...

sigtrent
06-19-2007, 06:24 PM
Did you manage to dps your way through them before taking casualties or did you skip?

We skipped Air and Beholder on the run in question. Vampire is really quite easy with firewall and scorching ray. Marrut was pretty much the same story.

Strategy overall...
Eveyone stayed defensively buffed
Lots of firewalls and scorching rays for DPS when needed
Lots of Finger of Death, Destruction, and PK (My wizard is only level 11) for the rank and file monsters
Fearsome robes and fear spell as occasional CC
Cleric keeps folks healed as needed which really wasn't very often

I think one thing folks run into is when you are the only arcane, you have a hard time making your mana last an entire quest buffing the whole party, and also trying to cast offensively. When you have a huge pack of casters.. everyone buffs themselves and has lots of mana for letting loose. And when you have that many firewalls going doing damage is pretty easy and efficient and agro doesn't all go just to one caster. It gets spread around and the monsters end up switchign agro depending on who last blasted them. The biggest issue was folks all fingering the same mosnter and wasting SP. My Wiz has a fighter level and doesn't have finger so I spent some sections of the quest playing "pretend tank", basicaly getting initial agro or killing with stat damage. I didn't fight much in the actual rooms though, there it was either PK on memphits or Maximised FW+SR.

If anything, a casters problem in a traditional party is that the party is asking a bit too much from them. Buffing everyone and trying to help kill things just doesn't work out all that well in a shrine light quest. Melee characters naturaly prefer to be buffed than to watch you FOD or SR monsters, and sometiems buffing is the best way to go. But I really think limiting buffs to only those that are really usefull is the way to go. Some characters don't need all those buffs, some of them do. Same with any caster. A cleric that has to heal every last HP in the party is gonig to be hard pressed, but self healing is pretty common now. Self buffing is a bit less so except among those that like to play in small groups.

Citymorg
06-19-2007, 06:53 PM
I play a capped, fire-nuker Sorcerer on Xoriat. She has a minimum of non-damage spells. Basically, it is the spells so valuable to the party that it would hurt the party not to have them. Haste, Web, Displacement (may swap this out), Solid Fog, Cloudkill and Resist Energy. Pretty much everything else is DPS. I expect my party members to go to House P if they want buffs, I nuke. If there is a particular situation that needs a certain spell (like the Air Room in Potp) I will cast the appropriate Resist (for 30pts instead of 20). Other than that, and an occasional haste, I don't buff. I scroll Jump and Greater Heroism (I have Finger of Death and Flesh to Stone). I let the fighters know that when they ask. I am willing to cast it, but it is going to cost money. Many do just fine without. That's just my playstyle and it seems to work for everyone. I have all the spells I need when I need them, but don't waste all my SP buffing before.

P.S.-The first thing I do when I enter a party is inform everyone that have very few buffs (of crowd control), so don't expect much. If the party is looking for a buffer/crowd control and say so, no harm done. I drop party and let them find someone else.

Aspenor
06-19-2007, 07:45 PM
I prefer 2 casters to 1 for all quests.

MysticTheurge
06-19-2007, 07:52 PM
I think one thing folks run into is when you are the only arcane, you have a hard time making your mana last an entire quest buffing the whole party, and also trying to cast offensively. When you have a huge pack of casters.. everyone buffs themselves and has lots of mana for letting loose.

And unfortunately for the assertion you're trying to make in the OP, "balance" has to consider both situations. In fact, the former is probably far more important since that's the situation that's far more likely to occur.

But maybe you're just suggesting that casters shouldn't buff people.

Oran_Lathor
06-20-2007, 04:16 AM
Do you really feel we don't have enough mana for single (primary) caster groups, MT? I've found lately that I've had enough mana for buffs and to contibute otherwise, especially since most paladins/rangers are now capable and willing (at least the ones I play with..) to do elemental resists for the whole party.

I've actually found that I can give out whatever buffs are needed and still keep a respectable kill count while cc'ing all the while. Then again, both of my wizards are pretty tweaked out... I guess mana could be a problem for a more casually gaming wizard.

MysticTheurge
06-20-2007, 07:16 AM
Do you really feel we don't have enough mana for single (primary) caster groups, MT? I've found lately that I've had enough mana for buffs and to contibute otherwise...

This is something that's came up a lot in the original SP discussion. My response tends to be "Just because I can stretch my SPs out doesn't mean I should have to." High level spellcasters should be able to be casting several spells per encounter. At high levels (in D&D), spellcasters are the way to clean up trash mobs (because one, say, fireball takes them all out). At high levels, spellcasters ought to be a force to be reckoned with all by themselves, at least when going one-on-one against a creature of equal CR (assuming, of course, that creature is specifically built to be anti-caster, like a golem).

But none of those things are true in DDO.

Vi'Aed
06-20-2007, 09:20 AM
For wizards spell point frugality is certainly still an issue. My wiz is 13. With his magi item he has 1010 sp fully rested. Generally once I am done buffing (and I don't even generally carry blur or displacement) I'm in the mid to upper 700s.

Even then, 700 shouldn't be a bad amount, but it can get chewed up pretty damned fast. I try to make economic use of any spell over level 3, and use a great deal of things Hypno, Ray of Exhaustion, Touch of Idiocy, Slow, Otto's dance. (I'm a crowd control/debuff junky.) Heck, sometimes I'm just wand whipping lightning bolts, etc, to not just be standing there like an idiot. However, throw in one good caster-centric encounter (need FoD, PK, repeated WoF, etc) and that SP total plummets really freaking quick. Given that most of the quests I see these days seem to be 1 shrine that needs to be saved for as close to the end boss as possible... frugality is definitely the word of the day.

Part of it is, I believe, that I'm willing to buff. Every dungeon seems to require at least two (fire and acid) resists on every player. Generally more. Then Greater Hero on the tanks (and man does that eat SP) and the frequent hastes... it really takes a toll. I *should* put more of that onus on the melees in terms of them carrying resistance cloaks, shields, etc.

Just an opinion.

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-20-2007, 09:34 AM
For wizards spell point frugality is certainly still an issue. My wiz is 13. With his magi item he has 1010 sp fully rested. Generally once I am done buffing (and I don't even generally carry blur or displacement) I'm in the mid to upper 700s.

Even then, 700 shouldn't be a bad amount, but it can get chewed up pretty damned fast. I try to make economic use of any spell over level 3, and use a great deal of things Hypno, Ray of Exhaustion, Touch of Idiocy, Slow, Otto's dance. (I'm a crowd control/debuff junky.) Heck, sometimes I'm just wand whipping lightning bolts, etc, to not just be standing there like an idiot. However, throw in one good caster-centric encounter (need FoD, PK, repeated WoF, etc) and that SP total plummets really freaking quick. Given that most of the quests I see these days seem to be 1 shrine that needs to be saved for as close to the end boss as possible... frugality is definitely the word of the day.

Part of it is, I believe, that I'm willing to buff. Every dungeon seems to require at least two (fire and acid) resists on every player. Generally more. Then Greater Hero on the tanks (and man does that eat SP) and the frequent hastes... it really takes a toll. I *should* put more of that onus on the melees in terms of them carrying resistance cloaks, shields, etc.

Just an opinion.

you've done something wrong if your WIZARD has less sp then my CLERIC at lvl 13. My cleric has 1158 at lvl 13, maybe you need to take a look at how your APS are spread out and/or how you allocated your stats.

To MT: when a group of all squishies takes 25 min or less todo pop, i think most of the issues with caster balancing has been remidied.

MysticTheurge
06-20-2007, 09:41 AM
you've done something wrong if your WIZARD has less sp then my CLERIC at lvl 13.

Wizards and clerics have identical base SP progressions now.

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-20-2007, 09:46 AM
Wizards and clerics have identical base SP progressions now.

That doesnt change the fact that he has over 100 less sp than my cleric does, does it? Much more than what can account for the extra 30 mana my cleric has from dwarven faith. I also only have a 28 wis. Most wizards have a 30-32 int.

Aspenor
06-20-2007, 09:49 AM
This is something that's came up a lot in the original SP discussion. My response tends to be "Just because I can stretch my SPs out doesn't mean I should have to." High level spellcasters should be able to be casting several spells per encounter. At high levels (in D&D), spellcasters are the way to clean up trash mobs (because one, say, fireball takes them all out). At high levels, spellcasters ought to be a force to be reckoned with all by themselves, at least when going one-on-one against a creature of equal CR (assuming, of course, that creature is specifically built to be anti-caster, like a golem).

But none of those things are true in DDO.

I dunno, MT. I'd say the wizking on normal is a level-appropriate quest for a wizard to be able to solo at level 14. Is the wizking's CR higher or lower than my necromancer's at level 14? I certainly tore him apart.

MysticTheurge
06-20-2007, 09:52 AM
That doesnt change the fact that he has over 100 less sp than my cleric does, does it? Much more than what can account for the extra 30 mana my cleric has from dwarven faith. I also only have a 28 wis. Most wizards have a 30-32 int.

It probably has to do with APs (clerics have fewer enhancement "requirements" to be effective and can more readily spend the APs on Energy of the Zealot) and items. But the suggestion that his "WIZARD" having fewer SPs than your "CLERIC" is "wrong" implies that, for some reason, wizards have more SPs in general than clerics do. Which isn't true.

Vi'Aed
06-20-2007, 09:58 AM
you've done something wrong if your WIZARD has less sp then my CLERIC at lvl 13. My cleric has 1158 at lvl 13, maybe you need to take a look at how your APS are spread out and/or how you allocated your stats.

To MT: when a group of all squishies takes 25 min or less todo pop, i think most of the issues with caster balancing has been remidied.

Possibly. Without having the game open in front of me, I have a 30 or 31 int, but I couldn't tell you what I've applied for SP related enhancements. Last I recall looking at it, there were certainly competitions going between various enhancements fro my attention and I definitely didn't have everything I wanted maxed.

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-20-2007, 09:59 AM
It probably has to do with APs (clerics have fewer enhancement "requirements" to be effective and can more readily spend the APs on Energy of the Zealot) and items. But the suggestion that his "WIZARD" has fewer SPs than your "CLERIC" implies that, for some reason, wizards have more SPs in general than clerics do. Which isn't true.

Wizards certainly can have more sp than a cleric, as they can get a higher int.

Drow. I dont know about your server, but the vast majority of wizzes on mabar are drow.

I DO have the highest lvl of zealot and the 2nd lvl of faith, assuming the wiz has energy 3 thats still only what, 60 more mana? Wizards as a general rule, do end up with more SP than clerics, especially since DV isnt selfable. :)

In order for him to have as few sp as he does he would have to have a 24 or so int. We all know this is sub optimal for a wiz. So unless he neglected to inform us of a multiclass lvl hes still well below what he should be at sp wise.

EDIT: after reading your comment above, it makes no sense you should have such low mana with a 30 int. Unless you took 0 of the sp enhancements. Getting 80? 90? mana for 6aps is a good deal in my book.

samagee
06-20-2007, 10:08 AM
For wizards spell point frugality is certainly still an issue. My wiz is 13. With his magi item he has 1010 sp fully rested. Generally once I am done buffing (and I don't even generally carry blur or displacement) I'm in the mid to upper 700s.

Even then, 700 shouldn't be a bad amount, but it can get chewed up pretty damned fast. I try to make economic use of any spell over level 3, and use a great deal of things Hypno, Ray of Exhaustion, Touch of Idiocy, Slow, Otto's dance. (I'm a crowd control/debuff junky.) Heck, sometimes I'm just wand whipping lightning bolts, etc, to not just be standing there like an idiot. However, throw in one good caster-centric encounter (need FoD, PK, repeated WoF, etc) and that SP total plummets really freaking quick. Given that most of the quests I see these days seem to be 1 shrine that needs to be saved for as close to the end boss as possible... frugality is definitely the word of the day.

Part of it is, I believe, that I'm willing to buff. Every dungeon seems to require at least two (fire and acid) resists on every player. Generally more. Then Greater Hero on the tanks (and man does that eat SP) and the frequent hastes... it really takes a toll. I *should* put more of that onus on the melees in terms of them carrying resistance cloaks, shields, etc.

Just an opinion.

I generally go light on the buffs. I have blur that I usually hand out. I also have energy protection that I hand out if they want it. Most only want resist though. I don't have that yet, as I am lvl 12 sorc and have picked more important spells. I have a mix between crowd control and straight damage with fire and ice. The party usually likes for me to be able to nuke. I have 1478 mana with my +2 heavy mace of the magi in hand. I do not own and para, destruction, or displacement weapons yet. I do have a long sword of weakening, and now a club of the one that takes dex away and backstabing. Not to mention nice bows for range things.

MysticTheurge
06-20-2007, 10:09 AM
EDIT: after reading your comment above, it makes no sense you should have such low mana with a 30 int. Unless you took 0 of the sp enhancements. Getting 80? 90? mana for 6aps is a good deal in my book.

Base SPs and a 30 casting stat only gets you 830 spell points.

Edit -- And that, I think, is part of my problem when people announce that casters are fine. I don't think anyone would suggest that 830 spell points is even remotely enough in this game. Which means, essentially, casters have no choice about it, they have to get more SPs, through feats, enhancements or items.

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-20-2007, 10:18 AM
Base SPs and a 30 casting stat only gets you 830 spell points.

I have a 100 sp item 28 stat and energy 4 faith 2. I have over 1150 sp. At lvl 13. Something is wrong with the calculations somewhere.

If 830 is base for 30 stat as you say then i sould only have:

830 + 100 + 110 + 30 = 1070

thats with a 30 wis, that i dont have.....i know i have 1158 sp, MT.

Somethings off.


Edit: AHHHH Mental and imp mental, thats the difference. Call me Columbo!!!!!! With the extra feats that Wizzes get mental and imp mental should be a given id think. Heck i found room for them in my cleric build!

Aspenor
06-20-2007, 10:19 AM
Base SPs and a 30 casting stat only gets you 830 spell points.

Edit -- And that, I think, is part of my problem when people announce that casters are fine. I don't think anyone would suggest that 830 spell points is even remotely enough in this game. Which means, essentially, casters have no choice about it, they have to get more SPs, through feats, enhancements or items.

very, very true.

Turbine has made the minimum required sp into the highest attainable SP.

If you dont spec for massive amounts of SP and invest items in it, your character WILL suffer.

jkm
06-20-2007, 10:34 AM
here is my question

fighters get toughness enhancements to add more hit points, yet spell casters don't get mental toughness enhancements that do the same.

and don't even get me started on that stupid belt that gives 2 levels of a fighter enhancement for free.

FlyinS
06-20-2007, 10:35 AM
very, very true.

Turbine has made the minimum required sp into the highest attainable SP.

If you dont spec for massive amounts of SP and invest items in it, your character WILL suffer.

Exactly true, and it's the perfectly logical point some are apparently utterly ignoring.

yawgmoth
06-20-2007, 10:54 AM
I would just like to say that since these changes, my warforged sorcerer is stronger than ever. I will not buff anyone other than myself, so my FoD mana usually lasts to the shrine, if not longer. When people ask me for buffs, I just buff myself and start killing. If they need the resists and haste so damn bad, they can carry their own resist and other buff clickies. I don't join parties to play buffbot, I join them to make everyone else feel useless while I FoD 90% of the dungeon.

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-20-2007, 11:05 AM
I would just like to say that since these changes, my warforged sorcerer is stronger than ever. I will not buff anyone other than myself, so my FoD mana usually lasts to the shrine, if not longer. When people ask me for buffs, I just buff myself and start killing. If they need the resists and haste so damn bad, they can carry their own resist and other buff clickies. I don't join parties to play buffbot, I join them to make everyone else feel useless while I FoD 90% of the dungeon.

OHOHOHOHOH i want to play with YOU!!!!! Your my heeeerrrrooo!!!!

peavey
06-20-2007, 11:16 AM
It would be very easy to do PoP with 5 casters, only one person to buff, as any caster worth a dang has anything THEY need at their disposal (yes that was my crack at sorcs) so my lvl 14.1 wizzy has like 1227 sp, if I have to buff a party (something I don't do unless asked) then I waste more than a third of my mana. As it is that would leave me with a little over 800 mana. Now while in PvP, something I like to do a lot helps with the reaction time a bit, I can buff myself with ALL resists and protects all extended, GH, false life, blur, stoneskin, and shield I still have plenty of mana without taking a drink to kill 5 or 6 fully buffed maxed out toons with way overkill...all the meta feats active.
So yeah ALMOST any party of all casters and one cleric can do most quests but is that the norm? No. Why? Because there have been many who have put their casters on the shelf due to, on any other occasion than the loot weekends, garbage loot.
And most of the time it is easier with a well rounded group.
So run with all casters whenever you can I wish I could would be a lot of fun.

Oh yeah and to the poster about a wizard having less sp than a cleric, you full heal for what like 500 or so on a crit, my fireball has seen RED numbers of over 800 fully meta'd and with the items needed, so having a little less mana can be ok, after all ya gotta give up something to get what you want right?

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-20-2007, 01:31 PM
Oh yeah and to the poster about a wizard having less sp than a cleric, you full heal for what like 500 or so on a crit, my fireball has seen RED numbers of over 800 fully meta'd and with the items needed, so having a little less mana can be ok, after all ya gotta give up something to get what you want right?


Umm hello, you totally missed the point of the discussion, the point was that wizards SHOULDNT have less, they should have the same sp if not more than a cleric. It is alot easier for wizes to take mental and imp mental toughness due to the free metamagic feats. Though that is mitigated by the minor "advantage" clerics have in enhancements. The "advantage" being that clerics dont have as many useful ones so its easier for them to find aps to spend on the energy train of enhances.

Vi'Aed
06-20-2007, 02:05 PM
Edit: AHHHH Mental and imp mental, thats the difference. Call me Columbo!!!!!! With the extra feats that Wizzes get mental and imp mental should be a given id think. Heck i found room for them in my cleric build!

Bingo bango boingo I do not, infact, carry mental toughness. My guy is specced more for spell penetration and focus than for extra spell points. He carries spell penatration feats and some focus feats (although I might be inclinded to trade out conjuration at this point.)

MysticTheurge
06-20-2007, 04:00 PM
It is alot easier for wizes to take mental and imp mental toughness due to the free metamagic feats.

Except that a wizard "needs" more metamagics than a cleric does. A cleric really only "needs" Extend and maybe Empower Healing. Wizards probably "need" at least Extend, Heighten and Max or Empower (or both).

(Using the term "need" loosely of course.)

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-20-2007, 04:09 PM
Except that a wizard "needs" more metamagics than a cleric does. A cleric really only "needs" Extend and maybe Empower Healing. Wizards probably "need" at least Extend, Heighten and Max or Empower (or both).

(Using the term "need" loosely of course.)

And you get how many extra metamagic feats do you get? Oh thats right 3 at last count, with another to come at lvl 15. Seems like you can afford mental and imp mental. So even IF you NEED 4, alot of people, myself included, dont think heighten is necessary, you are in a minimum of the same position as the cleric that only needs extend. And a better one than a cleric that needs both extend and empower.

No excuses for not taking it really, unless SP isnt a major need of your wiz build... i guess.

MysticTheurge
06-20-2007, 04:17 PM
you are in a minimum of the same position as the cleric that only needs extend

Right, sorry, I wasn't arguing that it's harder, just that it's not "a lot easier." ;)

BigNastyMP
06-20-2007, 05:28 PM
This is something that's came up a lot in the original SP discussion. My response tends to be "Just because I can stretch my SPs out doesn't mean I should have to." High level spellcasters should be able to be casting several spells per encounter. At high levels (in D&D), spellcasters are the way to clean up trash mobs (because one, say, fireball takes them all out). At high levels, spellcasters ought to be a force to be reckoned with all by themselves, at least when going one-on-one against a creature of equal CR (assuming, of course, that creature is specifically built to be anti-caster, like a golem).

But none of those things are true in DDO.

MT, I appreciate that you are looking out for wizards and other casters, making sure that we are treated properly in this game. However...

I disagree with you when you say that Wizards are not a force to be reckoned with in DDO. Who solos the preraid on elite for chests? a wizard. Who solos the 4 golems in titan elite? a wizard. Are there harder fights out there that I am missing and not considering? I am sure other classes can win these fights as well, but so can wizards.

A wizard can take on every fight that this game has to offer, on elite, by himself, and excel. I fail to see how you come to the conclusion that a wizard is not a very powerful force in this game.

MysticTheurge
06-20-2007, 05:35 PM
A wizard can take on every fight that this game has to offer, on elite, by himself, and excel. I fail to see how you come to the conclusion that a wizard is not a very powerful force in this game.

Ok, I give on that whole going toe-to-toe with an equal CR creature. I guess I'm just not skilled enough to pull it off.

(And I mean that in all honesty with no sarcasm intended, since it might seem to come off that way at first given the lack of tone in textual communication.)

sigtrent
06-20-2007, 05:55 PM
I don't think anyone would suggest that 830 spell points is even remotely enough in this game.

Actualy that is about how much my wizard has at level 12. It works just fine. I make sure I get good economy from my spells and I am good at melee fighting in many situations.

BigNastyMP
06-20-2007, 05:56 PM
I feel ya MT, no sarcasm detected.

You can do it, you have the skills. Abundant use of scrolls and mana pots help against the real rough stuff out there. My one hope is that eventually mana pots will be more available.

sigtrent
06-20-2007, 06:04 PM
And unfortunately for the assertion you're trying to make in the OP, "balance" has to consider both situations. In fact, the former is probably far more important since that's the situation that's far more likely to occur.

But maybe you're just suggesting that casters shouldn't buff people.

I'm saying you have a choice. You can buff the whole party, but you give up effectiveness in DPS or CC casting. And it often makes casters feel "less manly" because they arn't racking up kills or CCing everything that moves. Buffing makes the others more powerfull and you are still making a big contribution, it just doesn't have the same glory.

Personaly I do a mix. I don't buff "everyone" I buff those who I think will get the most use out of the buff. I use wands for some fo the buffs (and generaly if I'm the only wizard I get most of the wands from chests so I hardly ever buy them). I use damage where it matters but I don't cast damage spells at trash mobs. I use CC where it is effective and don't cast it for easy encounters. But my Wiz can Melee decently so I wade in on the easy fights and save the heavy casting for the tough encounters.

In an all caster group you can see just how poerfull an individual caster is because basicaly its like soloing wtih 6 people. A caster in a mixed group is more likey to devote some of his power at making others stronger so you can't see his power.

Its like bards. Some folks look at a bard and thing.. what does it do exactly? But with a bard in the party everyone can have as much as +7 to hit and damage. This lets fighters power attack better and rogues and clerics become viable combatants. Add haste and that bard has about doubled the power of the rest of the combatants. Casters get to make the choice to buff, or rely on their own DPS/kill power. But it is a choice you make.

The all caster run demonstrates that you don't need melee to beat a quest, spell casting gets the job done just fine. I think casters who think all they can do is buff bot, merely are trying to do two jobs at the same time and are essentialy empowering the melees to make their DPS unnessesary.

Silverblade-T-E
06-20-2007, 06:13 PM
Congrats. I envy that party makeup.
Don't let SilverbladeTE see this thread...

...:rolleyes:
you can have fun, but...the amout of folk that have left....the amount of DPs a melee gets because of crazy gear and attack bonuses that are nto in PnP rules...the amount of non-existant caster gear...the luancy of enhancements that wreck the actual rules...

hey but don't listen to me, I've only played D&D for 21 years and about every damned computer game of it...
It's good the OP had fun, good for him :)

But I for one am sick to death of doing the same quests again...and again...and PoP can go take a jump up a kua-toa's rear orifice! :p
That one quest explains all that's bad in DDO in one cheesy wrapper.

I'm having much MUCH more fun playing Neverwinter Nights2...except I miss playing/chatting with friends. Actual D&D goodness, roleplaying.
Turbine's dungeons and game engine for 1st person D&D are awesome...the rest sucks spheres.

But who cares, long as folk are get their umpteenth +1 vorpal paralyzer loot-candy-of-utter-meaninglessness....
If Turbine had any sense, rather than having a "Loot-grubbing weekened", they should have instead said "we've got ten, new, high level dungeons to enjoy on your return to DDO!"
They didn't, that ends my case.

sigtrent
06-20-2007, 07:19 PM
See.. all of Silverblade's laments can't change the simple fact that wizards and sorcerers rock in DDO. He can quote rule books till he is blue in the face but the proof is in the playing and they work quite well, and can absolutely dominate a quest when played well with absolutely no melee characters in sight.

Raithe
06-20-2007, 08:33 PM
I'm afraid I almost totally agree with the OP. Casters have become so much more powerful than the rest of the field it's ludicrous. The funny thing is, my Sorceror (an enchantress) is actually devoted to making other characters look good - and I get into trouble all the time because someone wants me to complete their quest for them all by myself. It's hilarious.

Yes, I can build a drow necromancer who will basically make everyone else in the party obsolete. Do you really want me to?

MysticTheurge
06-20-2007, 08:33 PM
Abundant use of scrolls and mana pots help against the real rough stuff out there.

And therein lies a large part of my problem/complaint. Reliance on a near-infinite number of scrolls and a potentially large number (if you have the money and make the effort) of SP-replacing potions really only suggests that there is, in fact, a problem with spell points in the first place (as in we don't have enough).


My one hope is that eventually mana pots will be more available.

Personally, I'd like to see the removal of (almost) all consumable magic items from vendors and a subsequent rebalancing of the game. But, barring that, I'd agree with you.


I'm saying you have a choice. You can buff the whole party, but you give up effectiveness in DPS or CC casting. And it often makes casters feel "less manly" because they arn't racking up kills or CCing everything that moves. Buffing makes the others more powerfull and you are still making a big contribution, it just doesn't have the same glory.

Sorry, I don't buy it. It's not a question of feeling "less manly." It's a matter of feeling like you're contributing. If the entirety (or even the vast majority) of my contribution to the group is a 1-2 minute buff session at the beginning of quest, of course I'm going to feel like I'm not contributing. I am, in fact, contributing just about as much as that computer-generated character that stands in House P and buffs everyone who asks.


The all caster run demonstrates that you don't need melee to beat a quest, spell casting gets the job done just fine.

It doesn't, however, prove, by any stretch of the imagination, that everything is just peachy-keen, as you seem to want it to.

Silverblade-T-E
06-20-2007, 08:42 PM
See.. all of Silverblade's laments can't change the simple fact that wizards and sorcerers rock in DDO. He can quote rule books till he is blue in the face but the proof is in the playing and they work quite well, and can absolutely dominate a quest when played well with absolutely no melee characters in sight.

And amazingly, you don't need ANY casters, except, a healer....sorry bud, only thing casters are good for in DDO, are crowd control, and haste: CC is mostly useless or not needed.

"Oh wow, I have an uber lightningbolt"..so what, melee get the same damage in 4 swings or less. You have I trust, been noting the fact melee can use power attack on the lwo AC mobs in Gianthold, with paralyzers/greaterbanes etc, and improved crit with bursting perhaps and mobs die like flies.
It's like seeing 'em get devoured by army ants on speed :D

Been down this path before, except I was on the other side, funnily enough...in Everquest, I was a magician player...'cause I knew what the class was good at..despite nerfs and gross stupidity of the devs. Actually what wrankled most, was we gave them direct feedback, as they asked for and never bloody listened....
Problem wasn't the class, was the devs for goingout of their way to break the class's abilities (pets that agroed everything, pets that became useless, they never fixed the fire pets, near 10 years, never fixed...omg)

Found an odd thing to note: Reaver pre-raid, if you do it on Elite, the giants save against Flesh to Stone LESS than they do on Normal.
-in the quest with the minotaurs in Giant Hold, their will saves are crazy, did the devs mean this because of the "madstone crater" as reffered to, fine, but at least warn casters and tell 'em to stay home and let melee use paralyzers.
That SO wrankles, I spend my time playing a caster, getting him up to high level, and every dog and his bone can CC better than me because their paralyzers ALWAYS land and don't break after 3 seconds....cause it gets renewed as they hit many times.
That is so broken...but hey this is munchkin land: vorpals for everyone!

I just wanna play D&D, not Monty Haul :(

MysticTheurge
06-20-2007, 08:58 PM
And amazingly, you don't need ANY casters, except, a healer...

Do you even really need that? Just bring along a halfling fighter with 5 casts of Heal (plus miscellaneous other healing) per rest.

Silverblade-T-E
06-20-2007, 09:24 PM
MysticTheurge,
have you turned to "The Dark Side" ? ;)

*puts on Vader mask*
"Your lack of faith...disturbs me...No haste for you!"
:D

BigNastyMP
06-20-2007, 09:55 PM
MT, use versus reliance. I use mana pots when I really need mana. I rely on scrolls to save my mana. In PnP I relied on scrolls to save my spell slots. While myself and every other wizard out there would not complain with more spell points, I feel comfortable and competent enough with the amount provided. We will have to agree to disagree over whether or not wizards can cast enough spells each quest.

Silverblade, your posts are filled with doooom, negativity, errors, and general badmouthing of casters.
Found an odd thing to note: Reaver pre-raid, if you do it on Elite, the giants save against Flesh to Stone LESS than they do on Normal. Really? All you are doing here is letting us know that you cannot distinguish between your perception of reality and reality itself.

I have said this before and will repeat it ad naseum to each of Silverblade's rejoinders, "To you and Silverblade and the like. I am not calling you bad casters. I am disagreeing with your idea that wizards are not equal party members. We are. It is up to you to recognize that potential. It is doable."

Kethir
06-21-2007, 01:17 AM
Soon fighters can feel like arcanes (except the end reward, where they will reign supreme)

Start the quest, give haste (haste makes the quest go 40% faster, since your run speed is increased).

Press R, coast thru the entire outside ring of pop pressing pk and fod. Kill everything (this by the way is easily doable solo).

Pull lever for the group to do the marut and go shrine. no real need for buffs, except deathward and haste, maybe sonic resist. The cleric has plenty of mana for this.

Fod every room after the marut, fod or firewall, then go to the boss and let everyone beat up the boss.

No need for buffs, except end fight, need cold and fire resist.

Buffs are a waste of mana. Why resist fire, cold acid the fighters, when they won't be swinging at anything?

The fighters role in pop is to block the final guy frmo moving around too much. Its nice to have the roles finally reversed.

Uska
06-21-2007, 01:33 AM
I am convinced that a party of all casters is the ultimate way to go.

To fine tune that, make sure they are all self healing (ie. wf wiz and sorcs) and that at least one or two can cast raise dead or use the scrolls.

There was a thread a while ago about getting an all wiz/sorc party together, and eventually decided to go with a wf only setup. Unfortunately it seemed to fall through.

here's the link to that thread. (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=97321)

I have characters on Ghallanda (Ghoste, Raythe, Draugr) and Argo (Ghoste). If anyone's ever feeling up to some all caster runs, give me a shout.

Yeah was sorry to see that fall through I think several of us had some rl issues interfer at first I still have the high wis caster I made for that and he is still lvl 2 sorcerer I think but at work and cant check for sure

Silverblade-T-E
06-21-2007, 08:44 AM
BigNastyMP,
unfortunatley for you, others noticed the same thing (giants resist less on elite vs stone to flesh).
Considering the screwups that occur in games, it's not impossible to suggest that the devs got some saves wrong way round or the like while creating that dungeon...FYI I used to find bugs, flaws and exploitable things in EQ and did feedback on that (was a beta tester who worked on the Magician class as that was my fave)

And you're damned right I call out "DOOOOM!" because soon, this game is gonna be a ghost town.
The ratio of "fanbois" to "everyone else" on these forums has increased, because more of the rest of the players have "left the game". hence all the request for server mergers etc...if the game was "great" and "healthy", that would not occur.
It is having problems because of fanbois and loot grubbers supporting bad dev decisions.

As I've repeatedly said: the dungeons are good, way the game works is great, but, the enhancements (player and items), Monty Haul, crazy melee attack bonus, has broken the game (D&D) and lead to over powered mobs and loot grubbing as the prime focus.

From experience, buffing melee is far more effective than anything else I can do, so *** should I bother playing, just get a buff bot or a House J NPC who can cast Blur/haste for 30 minutes, hm?
Buff = no resist. Buff = increase melee output either directly, or indirectly by keeping them alive.
I dont' have a problem with buffing, it's part of what a wizard can do, but when you actually look at how DDO works in play...it's grotesque.
A Maximized Cone of Cold is nowhere near as effective as a 2+ minute haste, unless the party is swamped and you get a crit off...and the Max cone of cold costs a hell of a lot more SP than extended haste.

There's not enough Spell Points for the amount of encounters in missions, because the encounters are ALL at the max CR which doesn't occur in PnP, thus, casters burn spells faster than normal D&D.

As said, glad the OP had fun :)
But just keep watching server populations drop and ask yourself WHY, and if you are making things any better by saying thngs are "ok".

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-21-2007, 08:55 AM
Right, sorry, I wasn't arguing that it's harder, just that it's not "a lot easier." ;)

Nice spin, but in the WORST CASE you are in the same boat as a cleric as far as metamagic goes. Most of the time wizzes are better off, thats my point. And after the next cap raise, wizzes, in all cases, will be better off and more able to take MT and IMT.

Aspenor
06-21-2007, 09:29 AM
While I'd love to have more mana and whatnot, I'm a bit befuddled how casters aren't powerful.

Just because we can't finger every enemy we come across doesn't mean we don't have amazing power.

Heck, I need to get ADQ1 done with my wizard, explicitly so I can go into the DQ raid to try to solo it....I think I figured out a way to do it on a caster.

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-21-2007, 10:14 AM
While I'd love to have more mana and whatnot, I'm a bit befuddled how casters aren't powerful.

Just because we can't finger every enemy we come across doesn't mean we don't have amazing power.

Heck, I need to get ADQ1 done with my wizard, explicitly so I can go into the DQ raid to try to solo it....I think I figured out a way to do it on a caster.


Hummmm....Im trying to figure out how. Maybe displacement, Sskin wands and 100% fort with elemental 30 resists, that would take care of the archers i think. Since they respawn killing them isnt an option.

then how to kill the dq? Max empowered scorchings? And MM? Lotsa major pots would be needed i think.

Aspenor
06-21-2007, 10:28 AM
Hummmm....Im trying to figure out how. Maybe displacement, Sskin wands and 100% fort with elemental 30 resists, that would take care of the archers i think. Since they respawn killing them isnt an option.

then how to kill the dq? Max empowered scorchings? And MM? Lotsa major pots would be needed i think.

Firewall is your bestest friend. :)

Elfvyra
06-21-2007, 10:38 AM
Firewall is your bestest friend. :)

Not when you're a Mage annoying Red Named Archers and trying to dodge Moving Blade Barriers at the same time... ;)

Aspenor
06-21-2007, 10:41 AM
Not when you're a Mage annoying Red Named Archers and trying to dodge Moving Blade Barriers at the same time... ;)

*spits* who needs to bother with the archers? Blade barriers?? *yawn* Why on earth would I stand on top of the platform while the blades are out?

samagee
06-21-2007, 12:04 PM
Firewall is your bestest friend. :)

Flaming sphere works better in some instances, because it can chase the enemy around.

Aspenor
06-21-2007, 12:45 PM
Flaming sphere works better in some instances, because it can chase the enemy around.

I dont plan on the Queen moving very far from one spot.

sigtrent
06-21-2007, 12:57 PM
And amazingly, you don't need ANY casters, except, a healer....sorry bud, only thing casters are good for in DDO, are crowd control, and haste: CC is mostly useless or not needed.


No classes are "needed", none are "required". That is good. That is the whole point! You can have a party of all casters, all melee all clerics, all rougues, all paladins, whatever you like. Each faces the challegne in a somewhat different way and each is effective.

For some bizare reason you seem to feel that no one should be any good except you, or somehow you should be required for any quest to be succesfully completed. Nonsense!

Casters are awsome. Combat characters are also awesome. Its equal opportunity ass kicking. Of course a melee can do as much damage as a caster, and yes, a caster can do as much damage as a melee... stunner!

In D&D everyone can do good damage, they just do it in different ways and to different degrees of success agaisnt different enemies.

You resent a melee's DPS, you resent a melee's CC abbilities, you seem to resent everything but their hit points! Nothing stops yoru caster from picking up a paralyzer if you want to use one. You have a sour grapes mentatlity about nearly everything that doesn't cater to your whims.

Do you think we beat the qust using haste and CC? Lol not even close! Hardly used haste at all in fact. We only used CC if you count FOD as CC. Basicaly you just have no clue how to effectively play a caster if you think all we can do is CC and haste. I was dropping firewalls doing 250 pts a tick, to multiple enemies, mulitple times. I can throw a scorching ray for around 400pts. More consistant and faster than all but the most hyper specilized and well equipped fighters. FOD is far more reliable than a vorpal ever could be.

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 01:09 PM
*spits* who needs to bother with the archers? Blade barriers?? *yawn* Why on earth would I stand on top of the platform while the blades are out?
Maybe because you're not an exploiter.

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 01:11 PM
then how to kill the dq? Max empowered scorchings? And MM? Lotsa major pots would be needed i think.
Those spells will eventually do exactly zero damage to Queen Laliat. In the raid, she buffs herself with Mantle of Invulnerability, providing immunity to all spells of level 4 and under. That includes MM, Scorching Ray, and Wall of Fire. And a Marilith, she also has racial lightning immunity.

Unless you think you can disepl Mantle of Invulnerability (fat chance of beating the caster level check), you'd need to rely on such spells as Disintegrate and Delayed Blast Fireball. All the high-level damaging spells allow a saving throw, and her saves are pretty good.

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 01:18 PM
Heck, I need to get ADQ1 done with my wizard, explicitly so I can go into the DQ raid to try to solo it....I think I figured out a way to do it on a caster.
If you can't solo Laliat's Court, you certainly can't solo the raid. It's difficult but plausible for a sorc 14 to solo the preraid, simply using a lot of Scorching Rays to kill queen laliat.

In the raid, however, you'd have a tough time even reaching the queen, as it's fairly difficult to solo 9 efreets who are immune to fire and every CC. It can be done, and then assuming you can survive the archers and the 3 more efreet, you'd eventually find yourself dueling a marilith who's immune to all spells of level 4 and below.

Riggs
06-21-2007, 01:42 PM
People who say casters rule say 'hey I can Fod/Flesh to stone /PK everything and I rock.

People who say casters are gimped/need more mana argue that a damaging spell does no where near the damage it should compared to the inflated hit points on monsters, and the inflated damage output melees got.

Both are true statements.

The point is that in pnp D&D, casters RULED because a) They could Fod/PK stuff, AND kill things with damage, and have that damage matter.

A 10d6 fireball is good damage on a level 10 monster with 60 hit points. It might not kill it, but you can take a room of monsters down to half with one spell. A DDO fireball ....will not take a room full of monsters down to half.

In pnp a caster was limited to so many spells per day, but only had a few encounters per day essentially. A DDO caster gets a lot more encounters, and can spend mana and get more spells essentially.

But not one person saying casters rule in DDO can make a valid case that; If a caster choses to do DAMAGE over cc or save or die spells, they will be very effective. People say a caster can solo the Tor...sure...try doing it with Cone of Cold. See how fast you run out of mana and how few monsters you have killed.

Converting D&D to DDO melee roughly gained 150% damage output or more, based on more attacks, higher strength from enhancements, and overall better items available at the level, and of course the BAB progression reversal. (More to hit means more hits, means more damage)

Casters, IF they spend the enhancements for a particular element, gained about 40% max damage output. If you get a potency item you can boost that another 40-50% to a total of 80-90% increase. The thing was damage spells in D&D were not quite as good as melee, but casters had many other options too.

In DDO, monsters got inflated hitpoints and saves. So the gap not only between the boost melee got is there, but monsters got a boost, so realisticly, caster damage output is at least half of what it should be.
Not to mention that there are tons of weapon effects that can make melee a lot more powerful, but almost nothing for casters that is similar. (Hey wanna trade this effecy 6 club for your Vorpal? They are both level 10!)

Add in all the situation spells that wizards do NOT get, while I undertand some things are much harder to add than others to a game - NOT having fly/spiderclimb, protection from arrows, solid fog that stops arrows...many other protection spells or trasmutation spells - its a long list.

Bottom line, casters are not what they should be in DDO. People ignore this because 'hey I can spam Fod on monsters that are not immune to it and kill stuff'...sure! Still doesnt address the other major balance issues still sitting out there.

Solik
06-21-2007, 01:51 PM
I honestly don't get how caster items are underpowered compared to melee items.

How exactly is an item that makes your spells do 50% more damage or increases the save-or-die DC by 1 comparatively useless?

Riggs
06-21-2007, 01:51 PM
And you get how many extra metamagic feats do you get? Oh thats right 3 at last count, with another to come at lvl 15. Seems like you can afford mental and imp mental. So even IF you NEED 4, alot of people, myself included, dont think heighten is necessary, you are in a minimum of the same position as the cleric that only needs extend. And a better one than a cleric that needs both extend and empower.

No excuses for not taking it really, unless SP isnt a major need of your wiz build... i guess.

Perhaps Heighten is not 'necessary'. However a heightened web can stop giants, giant undead, minotaurs, trolls....in their tracks. A non-heightened web will not. Necessary? No, very useful at times? yes.

jkm
06-21-2007, 02:25 PM
I honestly don't get how caster items are underpowered compared to melee items.

How exactly is an item that makes your spells do 50% more damage or increases the save-or-die DC by 1 comparatively useless?

what is the damage potential of a +5 icy burst greataxe vs a normal one? the numbers approach an 80% increase per swing. now consider that you are able to swing it much much faster than a) you could in pnp and b) a caster can spells (in the time it takes my sorc to cooldown off of a fireball you have gotten off 6+ swings). therein lies the problem -> a raged, hasted level 14 barbarian is going to do magnitudes more damage in the midst of 10 mobs in 4 seconds (the time it takes to cast 2 fireballs) than a 14th level caster who tosses in 2 fireballs.

yes caster get more spell points, yes they get damage enhancers. but the speed at which they can unleash damage was slowed down in favor of speeding up the instakill spells. whereas for melees its just the opposite. my hasted fighter can get an enhancement that allows her to increase her attack speed by 40% that is stackable with haste. the numbers run together they are going up so fast.

do you see an enhancement to decrease spell cooldowns?

do you see an enhancment to penetrate the outrageous fire/cold DRs that some mobs have?

how about an enhancement for lingering spell?

how about an enhancement that makes spells tougher to dispel?

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 02:44 PM
Perhaps Heighten is not 'necessary'. However a heightened web can stop giants, giant undead, minotaurs, trolls....in their tracks. A non-heightened web will not.
Actually, you might be surprised by how completely a non-heightened Web can stop the giant skeletons in something like Madstone Crater elite.

sigtrent
06-21-2007, 02:47 PM
The point is that in pnp D&D, casters RULED because a) They could Fod/PK stuff, AND kill things with damage, and have that damage matter.

A 10d6 fireball is good damage on a level 10 monster with 60 hit points. It might not kill it, but you can take a room of monsters down to half with one spell. A DDO fireball ....will not take a room full of monsters down to half.


Actualy in D&D 3.0/3.5 a 10d6 fireball is very unlikely to kill any CR 10 monster. At its very best it might do half its HP in damage.

If you don't damage spec in DDO you can't do good damage. Same is true for a melee as well. If you don't use spells you have enhancments and items for you are more or less wasting your mana. My wizard 11 has Fire/Cold 3, 3 lines of the crit chance and no lines of the crit multiplier. Using a superior fire lor and greater potency 4 item when casting for damage. With maximize on. I can do firewalls for 200+ pts per tick. Scorching ray for 400+ damage. Fireballs that do 300+. I don't much like cone of cold.. too hard to target much of the time but even that can post pretty solid damge numbers. I've been in many fights watching some melee trying to take down some regenerating critter only to have it heal as fast as it is bieng damaged. I step in with scorching ray and the fights in two or three casts.

I'm noticing everyone complaining about damage mentions cone of cold. It stinks. Mostly because it is difficult to target and has a short range. I only pull it out when I've got no other damage option (aka lots of fire immunity). And I always think "can't wait to get freezing sphere instead".

You can get great numbers with lightning spells too, but you need to wait to higher levels to make them work as well, and firewall is just so good its hard to not go for fire/cold specilization. Of all my wizards spells, firewall is #1. I use it more than anything else and it's a damage spell.

Plenty of monsters in D&D are difficult to kill with damage spells. If anything DDO swings the other way giving some creatures specific immunity to everything but damage spells.

Mhykke
06-21-2007, 03:04 PM
Just because we can't finger every enemy we come across......



Well, maybe if you asked nicely........ ;)

Silverblade-T-E
06-21-2007, 03:22 PM
Sigtrent,

a CR10 *ENCOUNTER* is probably made of several CR 5-8 or so mobs...you sir, forget that.

I'll give an example:
the lvl 10 party comes up against the the guards of an orc boss, for simplicity sake, lest say, five level 5 orcs barbarians, that's a Cr10 encounter. go check yer DMG, page 49.

The party's wiz casts Fireball, 10d6, average damage 35 hp. His save DC, assuming this is PNP, so 20 Int (16 base, 2 from 4th and 8th raises, headband of Intelelct +2) is DC 18.

The orcs have 16 Con, DM says the regular orcs have average hps, the boss has higher. Average hp orc barbarian lvl 5 with 16 Con is
(6.5 x 5) + 15 = 32+15 (6.5 because DICE don't have 0, average is thus 6.5 on a d12)

So the AVERAGE orc in this CR10 encounter is 47hp.
Now, the DM is perfectly entitled to say, the orcs have higher than average hps, it would make sense in fact, but that would push the CR up higher.
Anway, one Fireball would rip the hell out of that cr10 encounter.
The orcs would have, lets say a +2 Ref save (+1 base, and say +1 from 13 Dex)

So, you are making the common mistake of a DDO player, who's forgetting PNP.
*an encounter CR, doesn't have to mean each mob is that CR!*

The average Fire giant, a CRr10 SINGLE mob has 141 hp..if the wizard uses Cone of Cold, he'd do 15d6 damage (10d6 + 50% for Fire subtype), average 52 hp damage. So 1/3rd in one hit.

Solik
06-21-2007, 03:25 PM
what is the damage potential of a +5 icy burst greataxe vs a normal one?
Irrelevant. What's an 80% increase on 1d12 compared to a 50% increase on a 14d6?


but the speed at which they can unleash damage was slowed down in favor of speeding up the instakill spells. whereas for melees its just the opposite.
Even assuming this is correct (and it's not; try spamming a variety of damage spells as a sorcerer after the last update), you'll have to explain how this is an imbalance.

Casters rule pen and paper, and they almost never do so using direct damage spells.


do you see an enhancement to decrease spell cooldowns?
I doubt you cast spells fast enough for this to matter, at least with the direct damage spells. My sorcerer casts spells faster with Quicken activated, which implies that even as a sorcerer she's not casting as fast as the cooldowns wear off (although with Quicken, she casts slightly faster than the cooldowns).


do you see an enhancment to penetrate the outrageous fire/cold DRs that some mobs have?
Damage-boosting enhancements are the same as DR-penetrating enhancements. Actually, they're better, because they give a bonus to creatures without DR, too. Spell crit boosters are better, too.

sigtrent
06-21-2007, 03:51 PM
the lvl 10 party comes up against the the guards of an orc boss, for simplicity sake, lest say, five level 5 orcs barbarians, that's a Cr10 encounter. go check yer DMG, page 49.

The party's wiz casts Fireball, 10d6, average damage 35 hp. His save DC, assuming this is PNP, so 20 Int (16 base, 2 from 4th and 8th raises, headband of Intelelct +2) is DC 18..

Ok, so your orcs have 47HP each..(Keep in mind the orcs will likely rage adding anogher 10hp to their totals.) 10d6 fireball is an average 30 before saves. The orcs have a 20% chance to save for half so average damage is 27. About half thier HP pre rage. you are also giving these orcs no usefull gear that a 5th level barbarian might typicaly have. PC class based CR should include appropriate equipment.

But if you have played a lot of 3.5 (and indeed I have). You would probably be aware that the rules for CR calculations are pretty poor when it comes to large groups of low HD creatures. (although those orcs are likely an exception becausee of thier very high offense potential) Also, typicaly I tend to throw encounters above the characters level for two reasons... 1. I like each fight to be exciting and feel dangerous as where an even challenge is generaly not all that challenging, just resource draining. and 2. Generaly I play with 6 party members and an NPC or two which is a good deal beefier than the stock 4 party members CR is based on, much like what happens in DDO.



So, you are making the common mistake of a DDO player, who's forgetting PNP.
*an encounter CR, doesn't have to mean each mob is that CR!*


My last game I threw 20 CR 5 creatures (with a slight downgrade to their abbilities so I called them CR 4) at a party of nearly exausted level 6 characters. They lost some horses and the rogue almost died, but the other party members were never in much danger. And apart from the two fighters none of the characters were especialy min/maxed. Most of the casters were about drained of spells at the time. CR values in 3.5 are pretty useless is what I'm saying.



The average Fire giant, a CRr10 SINGLE mob has 141 hp..if the wizard uses Cone of Cold, he'd do 15d6 damage (10d6 + 50% for Fire subtype), average 52 hp damage. So 1/3rd in one hit.

Ohhh 1/3 his HP, scary, if he fails his save (fairly likey). And then he would pretty much pulp Mr. wizard. I can do the same thing to fire giants in DDO. Done it in giant caves quite a few times.

Tyrande
06-21-2007, 04:01 PM
I honestly don't get how caster items are underpowered compared to melee items.

How exactly is an item that makes your spells do 50% more damage or increases the save-or-die DC by 1 comparatively useless?

Caster items are underpowered compared to melee items because:

1) mana (SP) is a managed (limited) resource while you can swing your uber weapons however long you want and never got tired from swinging. You can swing your weapons all day and get that roll to hit 20. Casters cannot spam their spells to beat monsters DC until they run out of spell points because that would be un-wise mana SP management.

2) Efficacy meaning clickies, only 3 casters per rest period, and they last only 30 seconds per cast, and hence less effective.

3) The increase save or die DC increase by 1 is comparatively useless because what is 1 DC compared to a DC 20 to 30 save? Yes, it is less than 5% and it uses mana. For a vorpal, rolling a 20 for d20 is 5%. With better crit range, you can hit much higher percentage.

MysticTheurge
06-21-2007, 04:15 PM
Irrelevant. What's an 80% increase on 1d12 compared to a 50% increase on a 14d6?

Uh. 80% to 50%. That's how percentages work.

It only takes about 7 swings to get 14d6 out of 1d12 per swing (approximately speaking). So at a ratio of 7 swings per spell cast the barbarian is doing +80% to your +50%. Of course he can keep on doing it forever and you'll eventually run out of spell points.

So, how is that irrelevant?


Spell crit boosters are better, too.

Uh. Spell crits? We're comparing to melee right? You realize they get "crits" without having to take any enhancements, right?

jkm
06-21-2007, 04:45 PM
Uh. 80% to 50%. That's how percentages work.

It only takes about 7 swings to get 14d6 out of 1d12 per swing (approximately speaking). So at a ratio of 7 swings per spell cast the barbarian is doing +80% to your +50%. Of course he can keep on doing it forever and you'll eventually run out of spell points.

Uh. Spell crits? We're comparing to melee right? You realize they get "crits" without having to take any enhancements, right?

plus a melee gets 7 swings to crit at a 10% chance on a great axe (lets not get into how ridiculously overpowered the sword of shadows is here) compared with a 1 time 9%/3x chance for the caster (sans items) if he is FULLY specced (meaning a ridiculous amount of action points to get there).

lets also state that the fighter is operating unhasted and not using fighters haste boost 4


in the last update, they slowed the cooldowns of 1st and 2nd level spells for sorcs 9used to be 1 second now 2 will be 2.5 according to what is on risia)while speeding them up for wizards.

jkm
06-21-2007, 04:52 PM
just to point out the silliness of the stats: that end skeleton guy in the tor has to be close to 10,000 hit points on elite.

also, would someone explain to me how 1 arcane can solo the tor for chests when you need at least 2 people to get more than 1 chest?

BigNastyMP
06-21-2007, 05:17 PM
JKM, run it more than once for more than one chest.

Silverblade-T-E
06-21-2007, 06:49 PM
Sigtrent,

You make the mistake that thinking the average of 6, is 3, it's not, it's 3.5 on a dice ;) I already pointed that out regarding their hit points.
So lvl 10 wiz = 35 hp average damage Fireball.

The orcs have +2 on their Ref roll, they have to roll 18 or higher. 18, 19 and 20 = 3 out of 20, 15% save

You're right on groups of mobs being..odd. And personally, I always tend to give higher averages to any unusual mob, a bodyguard, ANY named etc, because, Darwinism applies: weakest die off. So, those orc bodguards, meh, I'd give 'em around 8-10 hp per die or the like...less the boss was afraid of them...and surrounded himself with guys who didn't threaten him ;)

Uh, the wizard would be in a party, 1/3rd damage from him, tanks in the way to blck etc etc...it's prety good actually. be honest, 1/3rd right off such a tough mob is NOT something your party tank goes "haha, that was weak!" instead he goes, "Whew, that made my job a lot easier!" ebcause in PnP, PCs don't have the ludicrous gear and enahncements we get in DDO..least I hope not!
-in all the years I've played, my player's characters only ever twice got artifacts..though in my games, artifacts are literal "doomsday" weapons lol...DDO is ridiculous for gear.


On crits:
Casters use spells a LOT less than a melee swings, it's NOT "you cast 1 nuke while he swings 6 times" it's "you nuke once per minute, he swings 100 times per minute" so, the chance of crit massively falls in the favour of the constant user, NOT the infrequent user.
Easy example of this, what's better for total effect:
a) +1 on 100 rolls
b) +5 on 10 rolls.





If you answer b), go to the back of the D&D class ;)

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 08:11 PM
You make the mistake that thinking the average of 6, is 3, it's not, it's 3.5 on a dice ;) I already pointed that out regarding their hit points.
So lvl 10 wiz = 35 hp average damage Fireball.
No. If you're talking about DDO spells, then a 1d6 comes out to 5 average, meaning a level 10 fireball is typically 50 typical damage.

It's understandable that reading the description you'd think 1d6 = {1,2,3,4,5,6} = (1+6)/2 = 3.5

But in fact, how DDO works is 1d6 = {4,4,5,5,6,6} = (4+6)/2 =5. You can run the game and test this yourself if you like.

Jyvva
06-21-2007, 08:57 PM
It boggles my mind how anyone can think arcane casters are weak.

Individually, casters are fodder. My opinion. Others may vary.

However, I won't dispute the fact that four casters together can take out mobs.
DDO is a zergfest. Doesn't really matter what class they are as long as they can lay down the DPS as a group.

Silverblade-T-E
06-21-2007, 10:22 PM
Gimpster,

No, I was meaning Pen and Paper D&D :)
since, yes, the average of 1-6 is 3.5, or for d12 for the hypotheticla orcs hps it's 6.5

DDO seems to use something like 1d2+4 or the like for d6 rolls *scratches head*

Mob saves also seem borked, not just too high, it feels like their saves are more like, say 1d10+10 rather than 1d20, because you notice increases in caster Stat bonus (Int for example) doing a lot more than you'd expect, and mobs failing a hell of a lot less than you'd expect by the d20 random.

:)

Solik
06-22-2007, 10:06 AM
1) mana (SP) is a managed (limited) resource
Most of the balance complaints I see come up in the end game... you know, where you don't need XP anymore and you can just recall for refill if you absolutely have to.


2) Efficacy meaning clickies, only 3 casters per rest period, and they last only 30 seconds per cast, and hence less effective
Potency.

You can also carry many Efficacy items if you wish (so, for example, you can equip something other than Potency items for further power boosts). You may have to carry fewer wands or scrolls to have the space, but that's the way it goes.


3) The increase save or die DC increase by 1 is comparatively useless because what is 1 DC compared to a DC 20 to 30 save? Yes, it is less than 5% and it uses mana. For a vorpal, rolling a 20 for d20 is 5%.
It depends. It's exactly +5% if the monster saves on a roll of 5 or above without the item (obviously you won't spam garbage monsters with save-or-dies if their saves are that good; we're talking important monsters that don't have immunities here). Amusingly, that's a 25% increase in your success rates (20 --> 25). If the monster saves on a 19 or 20 without the item, then having the item cuts their save rates in half (from 1/10 to 1/20).

Percentages are funky depending on what angle you look at it from.


Uh. 80% to 50%. That's how percentages work.
'Kay. Now let's look at numeric effects. I'll ignore Gimpster's comments for the moment, even though I'm pretty sure they actually help my case.

80% increase on a 1d12 is an average of around +5. 50% increase on a 14d6 is an average of around +25.

And of course, this is a level three spell being used here.

Now, you can get into the SP argument again, but that's entirely unrelated to caster equipment power. If casters don't have enough SP, fine, they don't have enough SP. Doesn't mean potency items are weak.


Uh. Spell crits? We're comparing to melee right? You realize they get "crits" without having to take any enhancements, right?
I was saying that spell crit boosts would be better than resistance-piercing boosts.

Casters can also get spell crits when equipping items, of course. And they even stack with enhancements, I hear.


plus a melee gets 7 swings to crit at a 10% chance on a great axe (lets not get into how ridiculously overpowered the sword of shadows is here) compared with a 1 time 9%/3x chance for the caster (sans items) if he is FULLY specced (meaning a ridiculous amount of action points to get there)
When a melee can do over 800 damage on a crit, you get back to me.

Want to talk repeated crits? Fine. How about a crit firewall?

No melee can equal the sustained damage output of a metamagicked, item-enhanced crit firewall. Not even close.

Mad_Bombardier
06-22-2007, 12:22 PM
When a melee can do over 800 damage on a crit, you get back to me.

Want to talk repeated crits? Fine. How about a crit firewall?

No melee can equal the sustained damage output of a metamagicked, item-enhanced crit firewall. Not even close.Let's talk about magic damage then. I was helping a guildie do quests for favor. We were in Freshen the Air on Elite, and I was having a good bit of fun lighting stuff up. I have Maximize, but wasn't using it. I figured, level 4(+2) quest, level 14 Wizard, not gonna bother. Landed a perfectly average Fireball crit on a Trog (not a chieftain, but armored warrior) for 242 dmg = 51 * 1.9 * 2.5 and the Trog didn't go down.

When a melee can drop him with a single attack chain, and a boosted/critting Wizard, but non-metamagicked, can't with a single casting (same time period/rate of attack), something is wrong. Melee and casters are not 1 for 1. They are 4 melee attacks for 1 spell. Look at the damage output over your entire attack chain.

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 02:19 PM
Landed a perfectly average Fireball crit on a Trog (not a chieftain, but armored warrior) for 242 dmg = 51 * 1.9 * 2.5 and the Trog didn't go down.

When a melee can drop him with a single attack chain, and a boosted/critting Wizard, but non-metamagicked, can't with a single casting (same time period/rate of attack), something is wrong. Melee and casters are not 1 for 1. They are 4 melee attacks for 1 spell. Look at the damage output over your entire attack chain.

What mele is doing that on a typical attack chain? I'm sure its possible but you need to crit more than once to pull it off. I recently worked up a pretty insane dwarven barbaran bard build. It should go about +30 to hit and +44 to damage at level 14, all buffed up. Even if I landed 4 attacks it is only apporaching 200 points of damage. One crit will send it up in the 250 range, two would put it over, but crit chance for this guy is still only 10%. A maxed out crit chance for wizard is 18%.

Also, fireball is far from the best damage spell for a single target. Scorching ray is superior and a level lower.

Don't forget your fireball is an area spell. You could have delivered 240 damage to a whole pack of monsters, somethign the melee can never do. Its like saying you took your cruise missile out and killed a guy by himself in the desert and then complained another guys 38 special killed him just as effectively. The melee is using his best weapon for the task at hand and you are using a middling to decent one designed for a different task.

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 02:34 PM
It should go about +30 to hit and +44 to damage at level 14, all buffed up. Even if I landed 4 attacks it is only apporaching 200 points of damage. One crit will send it up in the 250 range, two would put it over, but crit chance for this guy is still only 10%. A maxed out crit chance for wizard is 18%.
A typical dwarf barbarian has a crit chance of 40% and a 3x crit multiplier.

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 02:34 PM
You make the mistake that thinking the average of 6, is 3, it's not, it's 3.5 on a dice ;) I already pointed that out regarding their hit points.
So lvl 10 wiz = 35 hp average damage Fireball.

The orcs have +2 on their Ref roll, they have to roll 18 or higher. 18, 19 and 20 = 3 out of 20, 15% save

True, I missed the numbers there, good catch, but the up shot is only a few points of damage, its not going to swing the encoutner around that much. And yes, 1/3 damage is decent, and you can do that in DDO fairly easily. I've gotten and seen others get lead kills in DDO using damage spells many times. I think a lot of folks just don't use them very well.



-in all the years I've played, my player's characters only ever twice got artifacts..though in my games, artifacts are literal "doomsday" weapons lol...DDO is ridiculous for gear.

The only "artifacts" in DDO are the raid items. Differnt folks play with different kinds of magic item levels. I've been in high and low magic games. Ultimately character abbities mean more. Give your wizard a +5 flaming burst great axe and... he will still rarely hit anything. It takes a combination of item and character to kick much but, and its all a matter of scaling. I think DDO items are a bit strong, but if you look at the random treasure tables, and the sheer amount of play each character gets (the PnP equivilent would be to play 20 DDO dungeons and then delete the character), its actualy not much of a variation.

You can get items like those in DDO if you played PNP hours and hours on end using the random treasure tables. Crazy good items would turn up from time to time and over the long haul your party, (and the 1000 other parties you trade with) would end up with quite the pile of loot. If there is any problem here its that the original rules were not set up for an MMO with thousands of PCs all trading gear with one another.

Try making a DDO character who never trades, never buys/sells items, never parties with anyone who does. You are a founder, you know what it was like first time around. DDO is only so twink because we the players make it so by seeking out the best items for our characters.



Casters use spells a LOT less than a melee swings, it's NOT "you cast 1 nuke while he swings 6 times" it's "you nuke once per minute, he swings 100 times per minute" so, the chance of crit massively falls in the favour of the constant user, NOT the infrequent user.
Easy example of this, what's better for total effect:
a) +1 on 100 rolls
b) +5 on 10 rolls.


Same story in PnP as well really. Melee characters get multiple attacks and never run out of juice. Casters have to pick and choose (especialy wizards) and you save your magic for when it will do the most good.

A caster in DDO can work their crit chance up to 18% without too much trouble, and with some spells like scorching ray you get 3 rolls at the crit chance (one per ray). You can cast it about as fast as a full 4 attacks from a melee, so you are only down about one crit chance. Each ray does around 30-40 points without critting and that is a typical melee attack damage number, although with SR you never ever miss a stationary target.

Meanwhile you can have your summoned creature fighting for you, and a firewall going, and etc... Casters are very good in DDO. If you are finding yoruself not contributing effectively you might need to look at your tactics.

The proof is in the questing, if a party of all casters can easily walts through a top end quest there really is nothing you can do to say casters are weak that isn't contradicted by the simple, demosntrable fact that they are not.

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 02:39 PM
Try making a DDO character who never trades, never buys/sells items, never parties with anyone who does. You are a founder, you know what it was like first time around. DDO is only so twink because we the players make it so by seeking out the best items for our characters.
Players in PnP D&D also seek the best items for their characters. It's up to the DM to control the availability of that wealth, and/or to compensate for it by balancing future encounters with that wealth-level in mind.

It's fundamental that a good DM wouldn't allow a player to move a +5 mithral breastplate from a level 14 character to a level 6 character in a different party, but that is exactly what DDO permits.

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 02:41 PM
A typical dwarf barbarian has a crit chance of 40% and a 3x crit multiplier.

Really? 19-20 improved crit.. 10%
Critical rage 2 adds 2 for a total of 17-20 which is 20%

So how is that 40%?

The only way you can do that I know of is sword of shadows.
14 - 20 with crit rage and improved crit

Carnifax is 18-20 + 2 from crit rage for 25%

A "typical" dwarven barbarian does not fight with sword of shadows. Perhaps in a heavy raiding guild, but even among the raiders I know most of the dwarves have great axes.

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 02:52 PM
It's fundamental that a good DM wouldn't allow a player to move a +5 mithral breastplate from a level 14 character to a level 6 character in a different party, but that is exactly what DDO permits.

But there is no real DM here (and the item in question would need to be race restrict for a level 6 to use it). No one points a gun to your head and says you have to twink your characters. It is a personal choice. You can be your own DM and play however you like.

But in the rules in the PHB, you can get +5 items from a level 8 treasure horde. Unlikely, but it can happen. Roll it enough times and it will happen eventualy.

You can go through more combat encountes in a couple hours of DDO than you are likely to play in a year and a couple hundred hours of PnP.

People get this kind of jelousy that they think they have to be just as powerful as everyone else. If you want the game to be harder... just make it harder. What I hear is that people want it to be easier (the monsters have too many HP for my wizzard to kill them with a fireball) but they complain that the problem is that others are too strong, making it hard for them. So it boils down to.. make it hard for them so its easy for me... LAME!

The truth is that the melee strenth has a lot less to do with an extra +2 on a weapon than the fact it is a real time game and if you used the base D&D rules almost every fight would be over in about 6 seconds and it was probably felt that this made for some pretty boring combat. No time for strategy because if you blinked you'd miss it and human reaction times just arn't fast enough to take in all the information. By upping the HP they drew out the outcomes in combat, you can watch the trends happening and react to them.

DDO is what it is. THe massive number of people, the massively fast pace, the massive veriety of items... this will lead to massively powerul characters. It is an MMO and D&D is not. Them's the facts. If you want a tightly controled game you need to play with a limited number of people.

Kethir
06-22-2007, 03:22 PM
Really? 19-20 improved crit.. 10%
Critical rage 2 adds 2 for a total of 17-20 which is 20%

So how is that 40%?

The only way you can do that I know of is sword of shadows.
14 - 20 with crit rage and improved crit

Carnifax is 18-20 + 2 from crit rage for 25%

A "typical" dwarven barbarian does not fight with sword of shadows. Perhaps in a heavy raiding guild, but even among the raiders I know most of the dwarves have great axes.

I think there's some barbarian enhancement that increases crit ranges.

Here's the solution to wizard dps. Increase monster hps.

I don't care how much your barbarian greataxe swinging dwarf does, he's not going to do 10,000 hps of damage in a swing. But that's exactly what my caster can do (as long as its not an undead monster). Eventually, monster hit points will be so yugioh (they are already on thier way there) that the only dps in a group will be the cleric, sorceror or wizard (via slay living, destruction, fod and pk). The rest of the characters will just shield wall for the casters, or better yet, retire (aren't characters who earn a living via physical strength all relegated to retirement after level 10? Thats what I thought).

I really am looking forward to groups of 1 sorc and 1 cleric, putting up lfms seeking sorcerors, wizards and clerics. It would be that way now,....i only the loot weren't so BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD.

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-22-2007, 03:28 PM
Really? 19-20 improved crit.. 10%
Critical rage 2 adds 2 for a total of 17-20 which is 20%

So how is that 40%?

The only way you can do that I know of is sword of shadows.
14 - 20 with crit rage and improved crit

Carnifax is 18-20 + 2 from crit rage for 25%

A "typical" dwarven barbarian does not fight with sword of shadows. Perhaps in a heavy raiding guild, but even among the raiders I know most of the dwarves have great axes.

Well they may mean that they crit 40% of the time they actually HIT. Yes they do only crit 20% of the time they SWING. Just a guess....

Silverblade-T-E
06-22-2007, 04:03 PM
I really despise having to use "one shot kill" spells to deal with content in this game, it's ridiculous.
So what if folk can Finger of Death through an adventure, like eh...what about undead/constructs and red names? what about wanting to use different spells? What about when they nerf spells like oh...giant hold tor? (by giving all giants freedom fo movement and death ward, and their saves are truly ridiculous)

I tend to preffer wanting to use enchantment and crowd control spells, which should icnlude grease and sleetstorm !!!, grr.
I can udnerstand enchantment won't work on undead/constructs, and on speical mobs like the insane ones in Madstone crater.
What I really don't like is seeing melee mobs save so much against Hold Monster etc.

Just because casters can do an adventure, doens't mean they are "powerful"
prison fo the Planes is grosssly gimped and quick, hence why folk do it.
Try ti with an all paladin party...bet they do well too.

I wan tthe game to move away from Monty Haul and lunatic enhancements (ours and items), and over powered mobs, back to D&D, so, skill, rather than zerg and loot, is what folk use to survive.
As I said WAAAAY back at start of the game, the devs started a stupid, dangerous arms race by adding enhancements, and I was right, why? 'Cause I've seen where that goes form my PnP games, so, I speka with experience of FUBARS :D

Folk who want DDO to be another stupid WOW clone, will kill the game, because oyu cna't out-WOW, WOW. EIther this is Dungeons and Dragons Online, or it dies, because D&D players won't play it...you don't upset the majority of your potential player base and survive.
Look at the amount of folk who left, my proof is clear, but silent. They dont' post, they LEFT.

Most folk I talk who left, loved the dungeons, as I do, but didn't like some of the following:
-Monty Haul. It's just wrong when Vorpals etc are common as they are now. it degrades the game and the "OOOH, looky!" of finding great items.
-Enhancements, ti screws with D&D rules, if it's broke, DON'T FIX IT!!!
-Not enough content, having to do the same quest again and again...
-Setting is bland, lot of folk don't liek Eberron (some do of course), but the city in DDO is boring. Compare it to Qeynos or Freeport in EQ2, lots of NPCs, witty dialogue etc.
-Messing with casters, nerfing them to PnP so often, but letting melee get crazy stuff.
-Not enough "out of dungeon things" to keep them inteested: roleplaying, crafting, guilds etc.

Tyrande
06-22-2007, 04:09 PM
Mana is a managed resource.



Most of the balance complaints I see come up in the end game... you know, where you don't need XP anymore and you can just recall for refill if you absolutely have to.


Yeah, arcane casters can do that when they are capped. How about uncapped casters that are 1 or 2 levels lower and still need XP? How about quests WHERE YOU CANNOT RECALL? like raids? Where is the balance there?

Capped casters can recall, but why should they do that when melees don't have to? They might also not familiar with the quest and/or the way back and get extra SP lost or health lost while on the way.

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 04:15 PM
I think there's some barbarian enhancement that increases crit ranges.


I included those in the 20%, otherwise its just 10%. The poster who posted 40% is just blowing hot air unless he things dwarven barbarians typicaly have a SOS.

jkm
06-22-2007, 04:29 PM
'Kay. Now let's look at numeric effects. I'll ignore Gimpster's comments for the moment, even though I'm pretty sure they actually help my case.

80% increase on a 1d12 is an average of around +5. 50% increase on a 14d6 is an average of around +25.

And of course, this is a level three spell being used here.


actually that would be a level 7 spell. the level 3 caps at 10d6 which puts us at around +13 with 1/2 the output.

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 04:30 PM
I really despise having to use "one shot kill" spells to deal with content in this game, it's ridiculous.
So what if folk can Finger of Death through an adventure, like eh...what about undead/constructs and red names? what about wanting to use different spells? What about when they nerf spells like oh...giant hold tor? (by giving all giants freedom fo movement and death ward, and their saves are truly ridiculous).

But you don't need to use one shot one kill, it is just one powerfull tool in your arsenal, one of your most powerful and highest level spells. It's chance of landing is no better than a heightened hold monster or any other CC spell. It just happens to be a little bit better (indeed its a higher level spell so it should be.) Its like a fighter complaining he wants max DPS with a dagger, its just silly.



I tend to preffer wanting to use enchantment and crowd control spells, which should icnlude grease and sleetstorm !!!, grr.

But they arn't very good Silverblade. Sleetstorm is weak, grease is weak. If you hehgten them they work ok but are a hazard for the party. I might want to tank in my underwear but that doesn't mean its going to work very well.



I can udnerstand enchantment won't work on undead/constructs, and on speical mobs like the insane ones in Madstone crater.
What I really don't like is seeing melee mobs save so much against Hold Monster etc.

I did Trial by Fire and .. the Khabal of One last night on elite with my wiz fighter. Level 11 wiz, 1 fighter, 30 int, no Spell focus, Heighten on. I held 80% of the targets I cast on and all of them stayed held until killed. Seems like a good percentage.



Just because casters can do an adventure, doens't mean they are "powerful"
prison fo the Planes is grosssly gimped and quick, hence why folk do it.
Try ti with an all paladin party...bet they do well too.

POP is no easier than any of the other gianthold quests (excepting madstone which is very challenging). I've done all but two of them and I find them all about equal. I think an all paladin party would probably work, but not as easily or quickly. I know for a fact, the same players with a mixed party had a much harder time in there.



I wan tthe game to move away from Monty Haul and lunatic enhancements (ours and items), and over powered mobs, back to D&D, so, skill, rather than zerg and loot, is what folk use to survive.


So you want less loot less powerful monsters... Why? What is the difference? It sounds like you just want to nerf others so its easier for you. This game takes plenty of skill to play well. Eventualy you can get to where you can simply overpower quests but I've seen plenty of bad players who can't get the job done. From all the trouble you complain about having....



As I said WAAAAY back at start of the game, the devs started a stupid, dangerous arms race by adding enhancements, and I was right, why? 'Cause I've seen where that goes form my PnP games, so, I speka with experience of FUBARS :D

Ya, and lets get rid of feats and skills while we are at it, and all items, and clases and... It's just another layer of customization. Enhancments are fun and intersting. If you don't like them... you have the option not to spec them.



Folk who want DDO to be another stupid WOW clone, will kill the game, because oyu cna't out-WOW, WOW. EIther this is Dungeons and Dragons Online, or it dies, because D&D players won't play it...you don't upset the majority of your potential player base and survive.
Look at the amount of folk who left, my proof is clear, but silent. They dont' post, they LEFT.

This game is nothing like WOW. Its that simple. Most of the people who left want it to be more like WOW not less. Most of the rank and file that don't like DDO complain it doesn't have the features WOW does, or that its too complicated to understand.



Most folk I talk who left, loved the dungeons, as I do, but didn't like some of the following:
.

No. Most of the people who are your freinds and think like you do that left, left for those reasons. Go read the reviews for DDO. You won't see the complaints you list much except the last one... and guess what, that last one is all WOW/EQ type stuff.

boldarblood
06-22-2007, 04:34 PM
-Monty Haul. It's just wrong when Vorpals etc are common as they are now. it degrades the game and the "OOOH, looky!" of finding great items.
-Enhancements, ti screws with D&D rules, if it's broke, DON'T FIX IT!!!
-Not enough content, having to do the same quest again and again...
-Setting is bland, lot of folk don't liek Eberron (some do of course), but the city in DDO is boring. Compare it to Qeynos or Freeport in EQ2, lots of NPCs, witty dialogue etc.
-Messing with casters, nerfing them to PnP so often, but letting melee get crazy stuff.
-Not enough "out of dungeon things" to keep them inteested: roleplaying, crafting, guilds etc.

--vorpals- 99% of the time vorpal is actually the wrong weapon to use. Only weak fighters will use them consistantly. They are very much a situational weapons. For that matter, most of the power 5 weapons are all fluff. Your better served by using a damaging weapon. Especially on high end elite content.
-content- aside from 1 or 2 games there is NEVER enough content in any game for power gamers. period. A smart power gamer recognizes this and has alternatives to play when he needs a breather. Can this game use more content, yep. So can every other mmorpg out there.
-Can not blame Turbine for the Ebberon setting, this is a WOTC thing. And for one I am glad. I am sick of Forgotten Realms, the amount of whining would increase tenfold if it was based in FR as everyone already has a preconcieved though of FR and how it should be. I would not have minded to see a Grayhaw world, but its a dead world in WOTC eyes.
-Casters are far and away the most powerful character in DDO by end game content. My buddies Sorceror who is fire speced who does not even have maximize as a feat (will use empower) had his firewalls critting over 700 points a tick, or a fireball that hits for 1800 points of damage. I know of ALOT of casters on Khyber who regularily do this. Plus the ability to hit FOD/PK combo. Your lucky as a melee to even get close to monsters. This does not even include Scorching Ray or disintegrate. Casters at lower levels are a bit behind melee in terms of damage. But by end game, with good enhancements and equipment they are power houses.

Mad_Bombardier
06-22-2007, 04:47 PM
-Casters are far and away the most powerful character in DDO by end game content. My buddies Sorceror who is fire speced who does not even have maximize as a feat (will use empower) had his firewalls critting over 700 points a tick, or a fireball that hits for 1800 points of damage. I know of ALOT of casters on Khyber who regularily do this.Sorry boldarblood, those guys are yanking your chain. Unless you are talking aggregate damage, neither of those are mathematically possible. Not even with Maximize and Empower and max spell crit and vulnerable mob.

I don't want to derail the thread, but would be happy to PM you with the real numbers if you so desire.

Solik
06-22-2007, 04:48 PM
Yeah, arcane casters can do that when they are capped. How about uncapped casters that are 1 or 2 levels lower and still need XP? How about quests WHERE YOU CANNOT RECALL? like raids? Where is the balance there?
*shrug* Look, guy, my comment was just about equipment. I'm not here for the SP debate :p


actually that would be a level 7 spell. the level 3 caps at 10d6 which puts us at around +13 with 1/2 the output.
My mistake on the level 3 spell. But a cone of cold (level 5) can do 14d6 quite nicely.

MysticTheurge
06-22-2007, 05:35 PM
Most of the balance complaints I see come up in the end game... you know, where you don't need XP anymore and you can just recall for refill if you absolutely have to.

Which I just don't understand either. Since people are recalling out and since we're adding more and more wilderness areas (where recalling out doesn't even give you an XP penalty) how can anyone think that SP use is actually being "managed" in any way?


Percentages are funky depending on what angle you look at it from.

No percentages are percentages (at least when you're comparing them to identical kinds of number like damage output). A 50% increase is less than an 80% increase over time.


80% increase on a 1d12 is an average of around +5. 50% increase on a 14d6 is an average of around +25.

So as long as the melee character isn't swinging 5 or more times in the interval between castings of your spells then you're all good.

Let me know when you can afford to cast spells that often.


Doesn't mean potency items are weak.

I've never actually argued that the caster items in the game are weak. They are however, extremely rare. I've pulled two potency items ever in my entire game career. Both were (regular) potency II items. Good crit items are equally hard to come by. Arcane lore isn't even on the random treasure tables. Caster items are ultracompartmentalized. It'd be kind of like if weapon bonuses had another tag applied to them. It'd run I through IV and it would essentially make it so the bonuses on your weapon only applied to certain attacks in your attack chain. I would apply to the first. II would apply to the first and second. III would apply to the first three. And IV would apply to all IV.

I've also said that certain items which are fundamental to casters in D&D (like staffs) are missing. There's really not much arguing that.


When a melee can do over 800 damage on a crit, you get back to me.

Percentages are your nemesis here too. If you crit on 10% of your spells and a fighter crits on 10% of his attacks, and if you both have the same multiplier (let's say x2) then you're both going to get similar increases over time assuming similar damage output. If he's doing, say, 1d8+10 damage per hit and hitting 5 times to your 1 spell that does 14d6 then your crit benefit is going to be about equal. But again, he's probably swinging faster than that.

Oh, and you had to take a bunch of enhancements to get a 10% crit at x2, he just gets it for carrying a longsword.


Want to talk repeated crits? Fine. How about a crit firewall?

Of course, which is why Wall of Fire is a very popular spell, and perhaps one of the only damaging spells that can keep up with the HP of DDO enemies.


No melee can equal the sustained damage output of a metamagicked, item-enhanced crit firewall. Not even close.

And no spellcaster can sustain metamagic'ed Walls of Fire for long.


But there is no real DM here (and the item in question would need to be race restrict for a level 6 to use it).

Utter BS. There absolutely is someone who is managing item distribution. There absolutely could be someone who says "No sorry, you can't give that powerful item you pulled out of a level 14 quest to a 6th level character." In fact, there is someone who made some rules about that already, that's exactly what minimum levels are. But quests are designed with the assumption that you'll have items similar to those you can get in the chests for that quest, which tend to be items with an ML 3 levels lower than that of the quest. Which means MLs are wrong.


But in the rules in the PHB, you can get +5 items from a level 8 treasure horde. Unlikely, but it can happen. Roll it enough times and it will happen eventualy.

And a DM who puts that many +5 items in a chest just because he happened to roll them is an idiot. (Or more likely, a first time DM.)

It's also why a vast majority of D&D DMs don't like to use the random loot tables. Because randomness can result is some pretty serious stupidity.


The truth is that the melee strenth has a lot less to do with an extra +2 on a weapon than the fact it is a real time game and if you used the base D&D rules almost every fight would be over in about 6 seconds and it was probably felt that this made for some pretty boring combat. No time for strategy because if you blinked you'd miss it and human reaction times just arn't fast enough to take in all the information. By upping the HP they drew out the outcomes in combat, you can watch the trends happening and react to them.

Funny you should mention real time and happen to mention 6 seconds as combat length. 6 seconds is the length of a round in D&D. Combat in DDO is faster than combat in D&D because otherwise it'd be "boring" (for melee characters of course). And yes, thus, as a result of speeding up combat, they needed to give things more HPs so combat would last longer.

The problem arises from the fact that they then left spells pretty much the same. Sure the dice are weighted a little bit higher, but that really means absolutely nothing when you're talking about things having 5-10x as many HPs as the D&D numbers were designed for.


DDO is what it is.

Oh, well I guess we should all just stop talking and close down the forums then. :rolleyes:

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 06:21 PM
Utter BS. There absolutely is someone who is managing item distribution. There absolutely could be someone who says "No sorry, you can't give that powerful item you pulled out of a level 14 quest to a 6th level character." In fact, there is someone who made some rules about that already, that's exactly what minimum levels are. But quests are designed with the assumption that you'll have items similar to those you can get in the chests for that quest, which tend to be items with an ML 3 levels lower than that of the quest. Which means MLs are wrong.

No.. there is no one managing item distribution. There is someoen providing items to the game, once in the game they are free to go to whomever wants them. Use limitations keep you from wielding them, not from posessing them and it is only a matter of time before they are used. D&D items basicaly go from +1 to +10 and levels go from 1 to 20. Basicaly +1 per two levels... hmmm how does it break down in DDO? Lets see... levels 1 you get +1, 2-3 +2 4-5 +3... 18 -19 +10... wow! it works out almost perfectly! Holy ****!

The thing is, in a PnP game items are kind of rare. You go on a series of quests and your etire the character. Here, the game never ends, you go on collecting treasure in perpetuity and you can trade with thousands of other heroes doing the same thing. Same rules, different situation. Unless you prohibit gear... you can't control it, and the level scaling is such that it evenly spreads the avialable power of D&D items over the available D&D levels. How would you include all the possible items and do it differently?



And a DM who puts that many +5 items in a chest just because he happened to roll them is an idiot. (Or more likely, a first time DM.)

It's also why a vast majority of D&D DMs don't like to use the random loot tables. Because randomness can result is some pretty serious stupidity.

A vast majority of D&D DMs dont run a game for a group of 1000 players 24 horus a day, 7 days a week for years at a streach do they? How many games can you run the same quests 100 times if you want to? What if the treasure was always the same every time? No matter how rare you make the best items... someone will find them, and they will trade them and with enough time they will become commonplace.



Funny you should mention real time and happen to mention 6 seconds as combat length. 6 seconds is the length of a round in D&D. Combat in DDO is faster than combat in D&D because otherwise it'd be "boring" (for melee characters of course). And yes, thus, as a result of speeding up combat, they needed to give things more HPs so combat would last longer.

Glad someone understands this.



The problem arises from the fact that they then left spells pretty much the same. Sure the dice are weighted a little bit higher, but that really means absolutely nothing when you're talking about things having 5-10x as many HPs as the D&D numbers were designed for..

Ummm have you noticed you can add 80% damage via items enhancments (not in PnP)? Have you noticed that maximize doubles damage (and in PnP it only maximizes the normal damage never raising it beyond its normal limit?)? Have you noticed that you can maximize and empower a 7th level spell? Normaly in PnP you could only do that with a 2nd level spell. (assuming you were limited to 7th level). Have you noticed that with crits you can add another X2 multiplier.. X * 1.8 * 3.5 * 2... Try that in any way shape or for in PnP... can't do it, not even close!



Oh, well I guess we should all just stop talking and close down the forums then. :rolleyes:

Nope.. I'm just saying that you have to do a few things to be taken seriously..

1. Actualy use the facts at hand in discussion
2. Realize that there are limitations in a computer game with 1000 players
3. Offer usefull suggestions that take into account said limitations

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 08:55 PM
I included those in the 20%, otherwise its just 10%. The poster who posted 40% is just blowing hot air unless he things dwarven barbarians typicaly have a SOS.
That's right, they DO typically have an SOS. If you think they don't, you're not paying attention. The idea of someone using a 2h weapon besides the SOS is almost laughable for most targets.

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 09:00 PM
I don't care how much your barbarian greataxe swinging dwarf does, he's not going to do 10,000 hps of damage in a swing. But that's exactly what my caster can do (as long as its not an undead monster).
How much DPS do you do in Gianthold Tor or even Ataraxia's Haven? It's obvious that the monsters going forward are going to come prebuffed against the insta-kill spells.

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 09:11 PM
Sorry boldarblood, those guys are yanking your chain. Unless you are talking aggregate damage, neither of those are mathematically possible. Not even with Maximize and Empower and max spell crit and vulnerable mob.
The claim was 1800 peak damage from a fireball, and is perfectly reasonable.

Base damage from Fireball is 10 * 1d6 = 10 * 5 = 50
Maximize is *2 = 100
Empower is *1.5 = 150
Attacking a mummy, white dragon, or other vulnerable creature is *2 = 300
Elemental Manipulation enhancement is *1.4 = 420
Superior Combustion III is *1.5 = 630
Best spell crit is *2.75 = 1732

That's close enough to 1800, and with luck on the d6 damage rolls it could easily have hit that mark. Also, using Delayed Blast Fireball would increase the base damage by another *1.4, up to 2425 peak.

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 09:18 PM
No.. there is no one managing item distribution. There is someoen providing items to the game, once in the game they are free to go to whomever wants them.
There is someone controlling both supply and redistribution of weapons and other magic items. As it happens the controls that person applies is minimal, but he does exist. If not for that, the problem would be even worse and level 1 characters would be gifted with +5 or better gear.


Use limitations keep you from wielding them, not from posessing them and it is only a matter of time before they are used. D&D items basicaly go from +1 to +10 and levels go from 1 to 20. Basicaly +1 per two levels... hmmm how does it break down in DDO? Lets see... levels 1 you get +1, 2-3 +2 4-5 +3... 18 -19 +10... wow! it works out almost perfectly! Holy ****!
In PnP you could have a +X weapon at level X/2, just like in DDO... but that would basically be your single best item. You'd never get close to the DDO situation where every level 8 character is expected to have +5 weapon, armor, and shield as a minimal baseline.

When DDO was new (first 1-3 months), it took level 10 characters substantial time to get +5 gear (except for an early Threnal quest reward which was too good, and which was quickly removed). It is wrong for a game to present such a different challenge to new players based on the maturity of the server.

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 09:20 PM
That's right, they DO typically have an SOS. If you think they don't, you're not paying attention. The idea of someone using a 2h weapon besides the SOS is almost laughable for most targets.

In my entire guild (some 300 or so characters) I believe there is one Sword of Shadows. Now in some of the raiding guilds.. probably many more but among the rank and file it is a rare item.

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 09:24 PM
A vast majority of D&D DMs dont run a game for a group of 1000 players 24 horus a day, 7 days a week for years at a streach do they? How many games can you run the same quests 100 times if you want to? What if the treasure was always the same every time? No matter how rare you make the best items... someone will find them, and they will trade them and with enough time they will become commonplace.
Yes, that is the reason why the problem happens. But an explanation is not an excuse. Turbine should have done more to prevent the open redistribution of magic items to characters who didn't acquire them from quests.

They did apply a minimum level of 2*enhancement, which is seriously better than nothing. But they should have done more.

If a live DM had 1000 players 24*7, he'd probably take the easier way out and flat prohibit the exchange of items between characters. Or, he would assume it's a high-magic world where nearly any powerful magic item is available with a little effort, so he would supply all NPCs with them as a baseline, both for vendors to sell and opponents to wield (which would make the quality of a character's magic items nearly a null value)

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 09:24 PM
In PnP you could have a +X weapon at level X/2, just like in DDO... but that would basically be your single best item. You'd never get close to the DDO situation where every level 8 character is expected to have +5 weapon, armor, and shield as a minimal baseline.

When DDO was new (first 1-3 months), it took level 10 characters substantial time to get +5 gear (except for an early Threnal quest reward which was too good, and which was quickly removed). It is wrong for a game to present such a different challenge to new players based on the maturity of the server.

Thats my point though. Same rules, different situation. Making D&D into an MMO changes the game environment and that changes the outcomes. I remember coveting +5 plate, couldn't get it for love or money. Now, its like a pair of used socks. Its that whole Massive and Multi Player thing that does it, not the treasure tables.

sigtrent
06-22-2007, 09:34 PM
Yes, that is the reason why the problem happens. But an explanation is not an excuse. Turbine should have done more to prevent the open redistribution of magic items to characters who didn't acquire them from quests.

They did apply a minimum level of 2*enhancement, which is seriously better than nothing. But they should have done more.

If a live DM had 1000 players 24*7, he'd probably take the easier way out and flat prohibit the exchange of items between characters. Or, he would assume it's a high-magic world where nearly any powerful magic item is available with a little effort, so he would supply all NPCs with them as a baseline, both for vendors to sell and opponents to wield (which would make the quality of a character's magic items nearly a null value)


Ahh were finaly getting somewhere in this discussion!

What can they do without mucking it up further?

A. More stringent restrictions on item level (you end up not having the same items in DDO as are in D&D, signature stuff people like but also just the full range of interesting possibilities)

B. Far less frequent drops. (You end up with a game with very few rewards, folks quest long and hard for almost nothing, many turn away unsatisfied and bored. The hard core still manage to find all the good gear and become even more an elite unatainable image for the common guy)

C. Allow no trades. (Killing much of the idea of MMOdom where players can interact and associate freely. We have some bound items but in general it isn't popular. People clammored for AH, and are clammoring for Guild Banks and the like. No helping friends, no sharing treasure blah!)

D. Gear up all the monsters. (Basicaly they already did, its just they don't drop that gear or the market would be twice as flooded with crazy items. Instead the mosnters are stated out as if they had crazy good gear.)

So what did they do?

1. Distributed the range of items possibel evenly by level
2. Made magic common but random so even powerful items by level are often pretty pointless, you must play the random loot game sifting for the best random combinations.
3. Things are rare enough that some items are highly prized but as time goes on yesterdays great item is tommorows common item. Perfectly reasonable and keeps people looking forward.
4. Scale the combat challenges to match up with the high end gear by having hard and elite quests to challenge stronger players.

Tyrande
06-23-2007, 12:47 AM
*shrug* Look, guy, my comment was just about equipment. I'm not here for the SP debate :p


It is and was about equipment. The discussion was the relative power of melee equipment versus caster equipment. Caster equipment REQUIRES SP to cause substantial damage!

Tyrande
06-23-2007, 12:53 AM
The claim was 1800 peak damage from a fireball, and is perfectly reasonable.

Base damage from Fireball is 10 * 1d6 = 10 * 5 = 50
Maximize is *2 = 100
Empower is *1.5 = 150
Attacking a mummy, white dragon, or other vulnerable creature is *2 = 300
Elemental Manipulation enhancement is *1.4 = 420
Superior Combustion III is *1.5 = 630
Best spell crit is *2.75 = 1732

That's close enough to 1800, and with luck on the d6 damage rolls it could easily have hit that mark. Also, using Delayed Blast Fireball would increase the base damage by another *1.4, up to 2425 peak.

I have two capped casters and they both have empower, maximize and improved spell crit. I have never seen a fireball landing more than 1000 damage. 800 yes, over 1000, no.

perhaps the calculation uses additive computation, not multiplicative like you have here.
superior combustion III is 50% to the base damage, not to the cumulative damage. Samething with elemental enhancement of 40%. So, in reality it is:
50 * (2.5 max empower) * 2 vulnerable (cold monsters) * (1+ 0.5 + 0.4) * 1.75 (spell crit- more realistic) = 831.25 and that's assuming you hit the high watermark. No caster can have all enhancements and not neglecting the other areas like stats or energy or subtle spellcasting.

But as someone already mentioned, lots of monsters in gianthold have evasion, improved evasion and fire resistance. Most of them you hit them less than 100, or even zero (0).

sabs
06-23-2007, 07:11 AM
And That Fireball is all great and good. Except, have you CAST a fireball in any of the Giant Tor quests?

All you see, are yellow numbers for the low 30's. (and who has enough freaking mana to max/empower every spell). Assuming that the mobs aren't either A) immune to fire, which is getting more and more common. or B) have improved evasion and crazy saves.

When I absolutely have to kill something with alot of HP.. I use max/empowered disintegrates.. and at 135 sp a cast.. well :) it gets pricey.

MysticTheurge
06-23-2007, 08:34 AM
The claim was 1800 peak damage from a fireball, and is perfectly reasonable.

Base damage from Fireball is 10 * 1d6 = 10 * 5 = 50
Maximize is *2 = 100
Empower is *1.5 = 150
Attacking a mummy, white dragon, or other vulnerable creature is *2 = 300
Elemental Manipulation enhancement is *1.4 = 420
Superior Combustion III is *1.5 = 630
Best spell crit is *2.75 = 1732

That's close enough to 1800, and with luck on the d6 damage rolls it could easily have hit that mark.

At least some of those numbers are additive, not multiplicative. At the very least the elemental enhancement and combustion are, which leaves you at:

50 * 2 * 1.5 * 2 * 1.9 * 2.75 or 1568 if you crit against a fire vulnerable creature. If you get really lucky and max out every single one of your d6s you get 1881.

And that's assuming Max/Empower hasn't been 'fixed' to be additive either, if it was you've got 50 * 2.5 * 2 * 1.9 * 2.75 instead (or 1307 average, 1568 max).


Also, using Delayed Blast Fireball would increase the base damage by another *1.4, up to 2425 peak.

And requires you to have Superior Combustion VII instead of III.

Mad_Bombardier
06-23-2007, 09:50 AM
The claim was 1800 peak damage from a fireball, and is perfectly reasonable.Nope, they changed the calculations in 3.3/Mod4. Metamagics are now additive. Static boost percentages have always been additive.
The best result is 60 (max base) * 1.9 (enhance + potency) * 2.5 (max + empower) * 2.75 (max crit) * 2 (vulnerable) = 1567.

However, my example used Fireball, but my point was that due to the fact that mobs are superbuffed to compensate for insane melee boosts, a 240 damage spell didn't kill a mob in a level 4(+2) quest. The reason we instakill everything is because that's the only viable option versus such high HP mobs. What caster in his right mind is going to risk ****ing off a bunch of mobs with a lot of damage but not kill anything? Unless I'm goofing off in a low level quest, not me!

MysticTheurge
06-23-2007, 11:03 AM
Metamagics are now additive.

I knew they had fixed the costs, so I was guessing they fixed the effects as well, but I don't have the feats to check.

Tyrande
06-23-2007, 12:25 PM
And requires you to have Superior Combustion VI instead of III.

Delay Blast Fireball is a level 7 spell, isn't it? That means it requires Superior Combustion VII instead of III.

MysticTheurge
06-23-2007, 01:04 PM
Delay Blast Fireball is a level 7 spell, isn't it? That means it requires Superior Combustion VII instead of III.

Sorry, you're right. Fixed.

Harbinder
06-23-2007, 01:50 PM
What caster in his right mind is going to risk ****ing off a bunch of mobs with a lot of damage but not kill anything? Unless I'm goofing off in a low level quest, not me!
One that solos alot, using wands or fireball 10th and solid fog clickies maybe?:rolleyes:

Question: Whats the *1.9 enhance/potency calculated from? + 40% enhancement, 50% potency stacks to make it +90% base damage right?

1567 damage from a full-powered fireball = 26(?) AP spent (elements IV, crit IV)...a steep price to pay. I'll take my 9% crit chance for 1.75 damage over this.

Seneca_Windforge
06-23-2007, 02:23 PM
I see a lot of people quoting really high damage numbers that are possible from a fireball. That absolutely does not prove that casters are balanced -- the vast majority of times the stars will not align just right for you to do that. Most monsters in the game are not fire-vulnerable, outright halving your possible damage. The vast majority of your fireballs will also not be crits, further cutting damage -- and at that point, all you're really doing is ****ing off the monsters so that they want to bum rush you and quickly beat you into paste. And, not only that, but you've just blown a huge chunk of SP maximizing and empowering the spell, and you're likely to die for it!

My elven wizard has a base 12 Con, and even with Con items and False Life I tend to die real quick when some big ogre gets into melee with me. I really feel sorry for those poor elven/drow wizards/sorcerers who didn't plan ahead and left their Con at 6...

Aside from Wall of Fire and certain very unique situations, throwing damage as a caster is not worth it. You may be able to kill things, yes -- but you'll spend more spells points to do it than simply casting Finger of Death, most likely. It gets even worse when you talk about maximizing and empowering your spells. When fighters can throw out the same amount of damage all day long, and yours is limited...it doesn't work.

The biggest mistake made when casters got "balanced" was that they used PnP as a baseline. You know what? In PnP, a wizard is going to go through FAR fewer encounters per rest. A high level wizard really has to TRY to run out of spells in a day, and when they do, that wand of fireball (5th) they have still deals decent backup damage instead of just being a piddly annoyance to the monsters. They probably also have at least one magical staff with an array of useful spells, too.

Solik
06-23-2007, 02:45 PM
No percentages are percentages (at least when you're comparing them to identical kinds of number like damage output). A 50% increase is less than an 80% increase over time.
What? We're not talking compound interest here...


So as long as the melee character isn't swinging 5 or more times in the interval between castings of your spells then you're all good.

Let me know when you can afford to cast spells that often.
Why don't we factor in everything else -- like miss chance vs. 1/2 damage on saves, for instance? And firewall, of course, which you acknowledge below this comment but leave off here. Every DPS caster should be a firewall sorcerer. Yes, I know it sucks that there aren't so many options, but well, every DPS fighter should have the SoS, so meh.


I've never actually argued that the caster items in the game are weak. They are however, extremely rare.
??

If you don't think they're weak, why are you even arguing with me? I've never made comments about the rarity or lack thereof, and I didn't start talking about other caster balance issues until you guys pulled me into it.


Percentages are your nemesis here too. If you crit on 10% of your spells and a fighter crits on 10% of his attacks, and if you both have the same multiplier (let's say x2) then you're both going to get similar increases over time assuming similar damage output. If he's doing, say, 1d8+10 damage per hit and hitting 5 times to your 1 spell that does 14d6 then your crit benefit is going to be about equal. But again, he's probably swinging faster than that.

Oh, and you had to take a bunch of enhancements to get a 10% crit at x2, he just gets it for carrying a longsword.
Just some assorted counterpoints to ponder:

* Firewall again breaks this
* It's like this in PNP too; damage casters outshine only debuff casters, rarely even matching the power of melee until you factor in utility spells that they're probably using even though they're built for damage
* The 14d6 spell hits multiple targets and has save for half instead of miss for none


And no spellcaster can sustain metamagic'ed Walls of Fire for long.
Oh I doubt that. A DPS sorcerer built for it (read: does not hand out buffs) should have no problems.

Gimpster
06-23-2007, 03:07 PM
The biggest mistake made when casters got "balanced" was that they used PnP as a baseline.
Erm, no. In PnP it is widely acknowledeged that a caster who fights with damage-dealing spells is less powerful than one who uses save-or-die, save-or-suck (debuff), or buff/transport magic.

The relative weakness of Fireball compared to Finger of Death is actually a matter of PnP accuracy.

Seneca_Windforge
06-23-2007, 03:57 PM
Erm, no. In PnP it is widely acknowledeged that a caster who fights with damage-dealing spells is less powerful than one who uses save-or-die, save-or-suck (debuff), or buff/transport magic.

The relative weakness of Fireball compared to Finger of Death is actually a matter of PnP accuracy.

I am referring to numbers of spell points, not PnP fireball versus PnP Finger of Death. Wizards can afford to cast spells left and right in PnP once they get to higher levels; you can't do that nearly as much in DDO because DDO does not use the 4 encounters per rest measuring stick that PnP uses -- DDO casters must go through many more encounters per rest than their PnP counterparts. Even when PnP arcane casters do run out of spells, their wands and staves actually do enough damage to matter.

In Gianthold, a wand of fireball or lightning bolt is pretty useless; to a 14th level PnP wizard/sorcerer who is out of spells, the damage might not be mind-blowing, but it is enough to be worth using.

By the way, i've never heard that it is "widely acknowledged" that damage dealing spells are less powerful in PnP than other like-level spells, and i've been playing PnP for seven years. There are times when damage dealing spells are your best option, just like there are times when an Entangle, Ray of Enfeeblement, Moon Bolt, Finger of Death, or Teleport is your best option. It just depends on your situation, how many monsters you are fighting, what weaknesses those monsters have, etc.

MysticTheurge
06-23-2007, 07:35 PM
Erm, no. In PnP it is widely acknowledeged that a caster who fights with damage-dealing spells is less powerful than one who uses save-or-die, save-or-suck (debuff), or buff/transport magic.

The relative weakness of Fireball compared to Finger of Death is actually a matter of PnP accuracy.

But let's be honest here Gimpster, fireball may be weaker than FoD in D&D, but it's not as weak as it is in DDO.

Fireball vs. FoD when something has 200 HPs? Yeah, kind of weak.

Fireball vs. FoD when something has 2000 HPs? Absolutely pointless.

jkm
06-23-2007, 08:39 PM
its only 1.5 for vulnerable creatures. i am as fire spec'd as you can possibly get and my high water mark on a firewall is 625. why do i know that? cause i go back and look at the combat logs. my high water mark on cone of cold is 1410 on velah. that is fully spec'd superior ice lore/superior potency 6 gear. that hit took out about 15% of her hit points on normal.

Ghoste
06-23-2007, 10:59 PM
You've inspired me. (http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t98/schindianajones/ScreenShot00004.jpg)

Gimpster
06-24-2007, 10:44 AM
its only 1.5 for vulnerable creatures.
That's how D&D works, not DDO. In DDO, vulnerable monsters take double damage. Try hitting an ice mephit with a Flaming sword an you'll see damage up to +12 fire.

Drfirewater79
06-24-2007, 05:58 PM
I think there are alot of issues with messing with the way casters are set up

Casters are suppost to do more damage then other classes THAT IS WHAT THEY GIVE UP FOR NOT BEING ABLE TO DO WEAPON DAMAGE

if a caster with a cone of cold against a fire giant can do max empowered about 1200-1800 damage yeah sure that totally rocks but they get alot less then that on average hits against spell resistances sometimes a wizards fire wall max and empowered does only 5-10 in outer wall and 30 inner wall other times it does 30 outer and 300 inner and a sorc can maybe get 600 a hit if you think about it a fighter using top end weapons like lets say +5 shocking burst greatsword of cloud burst i see max damage at anywhere from 100-200 points of damage forget about it i am a pali using holy smite ability i could do up to 200-400 points of damage with onehit max rolls crit success and i have 5 chances to hit that damage per combo (roughly the same time it takes a caster to recast same spell again unless the are a sorc which the sorc gives up the ability to change spells at will

so lets say i dont crit and get low rolls guess what i bet i still do more damage then a low roll unmax'd unempowered caster spell

casters have to focus to become super powerfull

casters who dont take the feats required to be powerfull are effected by the changes drastically

so instead of crying that the caster stole your kill count you should maybe think about how often it is that a fighter gets the kill count all to himself cause i am betting that the missions where there are almost no shrines and where casters set CC instead of damaging spells go much different then the one or two times when a caster putting his best spell forward leads to some powerfull outcomes

man if you are scared of casters now just wait for lvl 9 spells you have not seen damage like fist of god 20d20 damage smashing an area repeatedly over time max'ed and empowered

muah ha ha ha ha ha ha

its about time players stuck together instead of complaining about how someon else managed to make better or more powerful character then you did instead just ask the guy how he did it and make your own