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View Full Version : Thought playing a rogue would be fun, it's not for me, idea to help change that



EightyFour
06-19-2007, 02:55 AM
I thought playing a rogue would be fun, however I have found out that it is not. Groups don't need rogues very much as the only thing that they do is disarm traps and pick locks, caster and cleric cover both those rolls and do much more, plus there is always a way around a trap even if that mean running thru it.

What I think that most people love about the idea of a rogue is that they are sneaky little devils that move with the grace of an assassin and the blend to darkness like a shadow.

IMHO, this feature of rogues was never and has never been used, at least if it has it's very seldom that it is. If you want people to have fun playing a rogue they need to not only be but feel as if they are part of a team that helps people thru the mission they have to do.

I would suggest that rogues have an assassinate ability, I mean cleric's have distruction and slay living, casters have PK and FoD, why not give rogues the ability to, as long as they are in sneak and even sneaking in combat, an assassinate ability, maybe limited uses to keep the rogues from becoming to popular.

As I feel that in PnP the idea of a rogues sneak attack was to do so much damage that whatever they hit would die or be wounded enough to take them out. With the added hp of the mob's in this MMO, sneak attack makes this no longer possiable.

I suggest that rogues be given an ability to make up for it, give the rogues back there sneak attack, the ability to sneak up on something and kill it. Make a die roll to see if you kill it or not, something to give back some of the orginal power that the rogue had.

Also I would suggest ways to cage or insta kill groups of mob's if you have a rogue with you to sneak over to that switch that throws up this or that. I mean don't make it happen in every quest, otherwise you couldn't go any where with out a rogue.

Maybe I can brain storm and come up with so other suggestions as well.

Also I would like to point out I play a ranger rogue, so my current rogue would not benefit from this, but it would make it more of a popular idea with me anyway to roll a pure class rogue.

WilbyZ
06-19-2007, 03:33 AM
Become a Rogard! (1 Rog/13 Wiz). Max. Int, Max Skills!

If Drow, use a +1 Int tome before Level 4, so you can hit 22 Base Int at Level4 and get more Skill points! Or if you're lucky enough use a +2 Int Tome at Level 1 to get more Skill points per level :)

You can even beat many dodgy Rogues out there in Search, DD, OL and UMD!

Uska
06-19-2007, 04:08 AM
No need to give rogues what they dont have in pnp they have backstab in old ad&d a class had assassinate ability guess what they were called

Ithrani
06-19-2007, 04:18 AM
They have that ability and maybe Turbine will implement this prestige class later on (of course they have to be evil sooooo.....). And no in PnP rogues do not have sneak attack so they do so much damage that the target is dispatched. By the time your doing 6d6 sneak attacks your not going to one shot kill many monsters or NPC's. That damage is support for combat or taking out low level guards who can be killed by a decent roll while scouting. Rogues can be fun to play in DDO I enjoy it, but the true allure of Rogues in PnP is that their roleplay aspects can be a huge asset to any team. And MMO's are never RPG's even when they are call RPGMMO, so until Role-playing on the level of PnP RPG's makes its way the MMO world rogues will always be what they are. DPS dealers who get very little credit for anything else.

Eradacator
06-19-2007, 07:57 AM
I am pretty sure it was said somewhere, (and no sorry I dont have the link) that there were possible plans to implement some evil classes (i.e. Assassian, Dirge, etc) in the near future. As for the replay value and role of I rogue I think a little bit of each post is correct. Me, personally I built my rogue for utility purposes and I love it. So far I havent came across any trap in the game that I failed (Minus the one in Cabal..but I am only 14.2 so I still got a few AP to invest =P ).
And to the OP, I cannot agree with you more about how hard it was to find a group with this guy.. Alot of people are stuck under the mentality that if they have a caster or random batman build with 3 levels of rogue they can disable anything. I have been declined or just ignored invite requests to quite a few groups on the way up because people are getting away with this currently. I dont think this is the case in the near future. The dev's already stated (as you can see starting with that cabal trap) that they are making a push to make most traps esp. on higher end content required to have a rogue in your group.....and not random class A. with 2 levels of rogue ;)

All I can say is if you truly dont enjoy it then re-roll something else, or else stick with it, I think they will show to be very useful in the near future

Uska
06-19-2007, 08:12 AM
I am pretty sure it was said somewhere, (and no sorry I dont have the link) that there were possible plans to implement some evil classes (i.e. Assassian, Dirge, etc) in the near future. As for the replay value and role of I rogue I think a little bit of each post is correct. Me, personally I built my rogue for utility purposes and I love it. So far I havent came across any trap in the game that I failed (Minus the one in Cabal..but I am only 14.2 so I still got a few AP to invest =P ).
And to the OP, I cannot agree with you more about how hard it was to find a group with this guy.. Alot of people are stuck under the mentality that if they have a caster or random batman build with 3 levels of rogue they can disable anything. I have been declined or just ignored invite requests to quite a few groups on the way up because people are getting away with this currently. I dont think this is the case in the near future. The dev's already stated (as you can see starting with that cabal trap) that they are making a push to make most traps esp. on higher end content required to have a rogue in your group.....and not random class A. with 2 levels of rogue ;)

All I can say is if you truly dont enjoy it then re-roll something else, or else stick with it, I think they will show to be very useful in the near future


No dev has even hinted at the possibilty of evil being option just people asking and wishing

Spill
06-19-2007, 08:24 AM
Mate i play a 3R/3B and i hack things good. the trick is go in a split second later than the tanks and you get +2d6 damage to everything. Go 2 fisted and you will rock. I own the kill count.

need to keep up the OL DD and search tho to stay useful in these situations.

Rindalathar
06-19-2007, 08:36 AM
Well, I agree that assassinate could be an interesting feature for the rogue, but something I think might be a bit more realistic and come sooner is summed up in two words....trap randomization.

If every quest had their traps randomization, except for a few that are integral to the quest's completion or theme, then I think rogues would truly find a bit more work. My elven rogue has been around since two weeks after launch and I'd be rich if I had a dollar everytime someone denied my request to join a group.

I hope The Rocking Dead and others are reading this post, because I think this could be a welcome change for us rogues, plus it would give each dungeon a little something different each time you repeated it, which, of course, we all know is necessary in DDO.

Spill
06-19-2007, 08:40 AM
True trap rasndonisation would create a whole new approch to dungeons.. scouting would be back in vouge and every party would need a rouge.

Aspenor
06-19-2007, 08:54 AM
True full dungeon randomizationwould create a whole new approch to dungeons.. scouting would be back in vouge and every party would need a rouge.

Fixed that for you, Spill ;)

llevenbaxx
06-19-2007, 09:05 AM
I have a wiz11/rog3 who is basically a trapsmith and buffer/CC who also has a decent UMD. Im sure glad I did all the GH stuff right when it came out. Rogues only shine when content is new imo. I cant get a group with this guy for anything now, prolly should have stayed with the "mold"(13/1) but I already have a capped arcane so it didnt seem like a bad idea at that point. Now Im not so sure.

FluffyDucky
06-19-2007, 09:29 AM
I have a rogue that I stopped playing at level 6 because he was no longer fun. At lower levels I had fun using his rogue abilities but he has become a low HP low AC fighter. My take on the main rogue abilities:

Sneak - Pretty much useless. Sneak is great for scouting ahead but when everyone has done the quest 10+ times scouting is simply not needed. Even when everyone is new or you are checking to see if a random spawn is there sneak movement is simply to slow. Parties are usually not willing to wait while you crawl down the hallway and would rather just run down and look for themselves. The slow speed combined with the fact that any action breaks sneak mode makes this skill useless.
Changes I would like to see. Make sneak a rogue/ranger only skill (like disable traps) Clerics/wizards/fighters should not even get a chance to sneak. Make the sneak speed boost get me back up to full speed (not just crawl 10% faster) so I can keep up with the party while in sneak mode. Allow me to perform non-attack actions without breaking sneak mode. (Perhaps instead of taking sneak away from everyone allow let everyone sneak but only rogues/rangers can do non-attack actions without breaking sneak.)

Spot - Useless. In every quest someone (and usually everyone) knows where all the traps/secret doors are. Other than randomizing dungeons not much can be done about this.

Search. Another rogue ability that is replaced by spells. Find traps/find secret door spells/wands make this ability useless. Actually even without a these spells you usually don't need a rogue since it appears any char with a decent Int can search as well as a rogue. Remove the spells and make search a rogue only ability like disable traps. (An alternative is make search harder but give dedicated rogues an inexpensive route to bump their search skill. This means don't make it available to characters that 'splash' one or two rogue levels.)

Open Locks. Why bother when you can get a wizzy with knock. Remove the knock spell and you will see a big boot in rogue popularity.

Disable Traps. One of the big reasons I rolled a rogue and almost never used at level 6. The time it takes to search for then disable traps is simply to long. Combined with the fact that most traps are very weak and this skill almost useless. Many, many times I've seen the entire party run through the trap, heal up, and continue on while I am still going through the motions to find/disarm the trap. Either speed up the process or make traps deadly enough that it is worth the wait to have them disarmed. (More deadly traps is a great way to make rogues more popular as this is the ONLY skill that is unique to rogues.) Also when you find a trap it should be OBVIOUS. Many times I have 'found' the trap but didn't hear the 'found it' sound over the noise of the trap and wasn't looking in the right direction to see the brief weak glow when the trap box appears. Make the sound LOUDER so it can be heard over the trap sounds and make the box GLOW BRIGHTLY and have the glow LAST for a few seconds. I made my roll to find the trap, shouldn't I know that I found it and where it is?

JayDubya
06-19-2007, 09:32 AM
Things that I enjoy about playing a rogue/ranger/fighter (3/3/3):

1) As a ranger, I get cure wands. At second level, I got TWF and Bow Strength. I can be quite dangerous from a distance
2) As a fighter, I get flanking bonuses at 3rd. I get armored agility/armor mastery to help up my AC and disable, even when wearing suboptimal armor. Even wearing MBP, I get one extra point of AC w/a 22 dex because of armor mastery
3) As a 3rd level rogue, I get sneak attack 2d6. I get evasion. I get UMD as a class skill (not that I can use it much yet)

Am I an elite trapmonkey? No. But I am incredibly versatile, able to cure myself and others, disarm most traps w/out external buffs. And once someone else gets agrro, I step in from behind and two sets of 4 red numbers fly across the screen as I curse and destruct them, or wound and puncture them from behind, hitting far more often than not.

Ultimately, I'm probably going to be 7 ranger/4 fighter/3 rogue, although I may throw another rogue level in later, so I can get more UMD. But rangers get enough skill points that I can keep the core rogue skills up (now that I've met the high water mark for unlock).

Without any special gear, I expect to be at full elite trapmonkey ability in search, spot and OL by 14th level, and just 4 points shy for disable, which can be easily addressed w/a luck item, greater heroism or the right kind of +6 int item. Oh, and this is a 28 point build. The best build ever? Certainly not, but I love playing him.

If I had to do it all over again, I might consider an elven rogue/ranger - most of the benefits of my build, w/more points left over for UMD. On the other hand, I might just do exactly what I've been doing, just with 32 points and maybe an int tome.

Elliott777
06-19-2007, 09:54 AM
I have a 14th level pure rogue and I have trouble getting into groups all the time. People would rather have a tank unless they are running Maze of Madness in GH. That is pretty much the only time I get invited on a random tell anymore. Funny thing is that while I am quite often 1st or second in Kill Counts that is irrelevant because according to alot of people Rogues are squishy. Guess my 47 AC (With Uncanny Dodge) isn't good enough *sigh* I hate to say it to all the PURE rogues out there, but people don't seem to care to recognize the fact that we stayed with a class looking for a benefit by doing so and all we have done is messed up our characters by taking less Hit Points by not cross classing with Fighter or something.

The other night I tried to get into a raid and there were 4 spots left. Not a single character with any rogue in them in this group. They had all the casters they needed and I sent a tell after being denied asking why. No response. But as I look on the lfm I notice that a 10th Level Pally 4th Level Rogue gets a spot. Now I get a response "We already have a Rogue"

Talcyndl
06-19-2007, 09:59 AM
Not sure what to tell you. My pure build level 14 rogue is a blast to play.

He does take some effort to play effectively though.

For example, it is absolutely necessary to let the tanks get aggro first. Once they establish aggro, I can backstab away and steal all the kills. :)

In addition, with UMD you should be self-buffing yourself. At high levels that means I cast Stoneskin via scrolls. And I will wand whip Shield on myself routinely (very helpful since I dual wield). Same thing with Greater Heroism. All those buffs make it possible to really wade into melee.

Also, in some ways more than fighters you need to choose weapons well. If you are dual wielding (and have invested the feats) you need to spend some time thinking about combos that will work well against certain monsters.

And finally, know the limits of your group. If the fighters aren't putting out a lot of damage, you need to be extra careful not to draw aggro. That means switching monsters more often and/or switching to stat damaging or other effects based weapons (cursespewing, destruction, etc.).

Good luck.

Hendrik
06-19-2007, 10:08 AM
Not sure what to tell you. My pure build level 14 rogue is a blast to play.

He does take some effort to play effectively though.

For example, it is absolutely necessary to let the tanks get aggro first. Once they establish aggro, I can backstab away and steal all the kills. :)

In addition, with UMD you should be self-buffing yourself. At high levels that means I cast Stoneskin via scrolls. And I will wand whip Shield on myself routinely (very helpful since I dual wield). Same thing with Greater Heroism. All those buffs make it possible to really wade into melee.

Also, in some ways more than fighters you need to choose weapons well. If you are dual wielding (and have invested the feats) you need to spend some time thinking about combos that will work well against certain monsters.

And finally, know the limits of your group. If the fighters aren't putting out a lot of damage, you need to be extra careful not to draw aggro. That means switching monsters more often and/or switching to stat damaging or other effects based weapons (cursespewing, destruction, etc.).

Good luck.

As another Pure Build, these bolded comments ring true.

Many times its NOT about the pretty red/purple numbers over a MOB's head, but what other things a Rogue can do for the party as a whole. For example, with some investment in Subtle Backstab and the 'right' weapons, a Rogue can hit/damage/stat an opponent with impunity and not be harmed.

Griftor
06-19-2007, 10:20 AM
However most groups don't look at it that way. All the ever see are 'trap-monkeys'. Yeah, I disable traps, but take a look at how fast those mobs are dropping when I got my dual wounders out.

There are very few groups that I know that will invite me when they can't get a regular tank because they know I can dish it out and afterwards take care of myself and the rest of the party.

Talcyndl
06-19-2007, 10:21 AM
And it's not even always about combat. Sometimes that sneak skill (maybe even combined with an invisibility clicky) can pull the party out of a wipe situation.

One of my highlights was about 9th level or so running Gwylans. We were in one of the caves and the charging minateurs, etc. proved a bit too much. After 4 party members went down I hit my expeditious retreat clickie and ran for the exit. I got myself outside, healed up (nice to be able to use wands), and put on my sneaking items. I cast invisibility from a clickie and went back inside. I snuck down, got all 4 stones and brought them back outside to the shrine.

We all healed back up and went back in and made the damn minateurs pay. :D

It's all about knowing what you can do and how best to help the party.

Hendrik
06-19-2007, 10:26 AM
And it's not even always about combat. Sometimes that sneak skill (maybe even combined with an invisibility clicky) can pull the party out of a wipe situation.

One of my highlights was about 9th level or so running Gwylans. We were in one of the caves and the charging minateurs, etc. proved a bit too much. After 4 party members went down I hit my expeditious retreat clickie and ran for the exit. I got myself outside, healed up (nice to be able to use wands), and put on my sneaking items. I cast invisibility from a clickie and went back inside. I snuck down, got all 4 stones and brought them back outside to the shrine.

We all healed back up and went back in and made the damn minateurs pay. :D

It's all about knowing what you can do and how best to help the party.

Again, very true. Maybe moreso for the Rogue over other classes.

Now if we can get another level cap increase, I can play with these fantastic new "Way of ..." Enhancements!

:cool:

dragnmoon
06-19-2007, 10:32 AM
Look at my Link in my Sig... Tells it all...

IMO a Pure Build Trap rogue is a Bad Build... I made a Sneak attack TWF rogue and most of the time I get 1st or second in kills and stay alive longer then the Tanks... With my Build there is only 1 trap in the game I can not find/disable, the cabal Chest... and a Trap Rogue build is not worth 1 Trap.

It took me awhile But I finally got the Rep as a Good Dmging Rogue and I find it less hard to get into groups.

Talcyndl
06-19-2007, 10:34 AM
Again, very true. Maybe moreso for the Rogue over other classes.

Now if we can get another level cap increase, I can play with these fantastic new "Way of ..." Enhancements!

:cool:

I just redid my enhancements last night to take Way of the Mechanic. It gets me a skill point or 2 more in Spot, Search and DD while saving a few enhancement points for other things.

Worked out well.

Cupcake
06-19-2007, 10:37 AM
I have a pure rogue, almost lvl 6. I love playing her. She's hell on wheels with her repeater.

I also have a rogue ranger that kicks butt. I have no complaints. They are both fun to play.

But granted, like my ranger/fighter, people just don't know what they are missing out on when they dont invite "us". Including those of you that have stated you cant get invites.

Rentz
06-19-2007, 10:42 AM
as was mentioned - UMD really spices up a rogue. here's some ideas for you, in case you hadn't considered this direction:

if you can get yourself up to 31, you can use the following scrolls/wands on a 1 (32 umd):
cure crit wounds
deathward
divine power (+6 str, full lvl 14 BAB)
Freedom of Movement (helps overcome your useless will save in some situations)
Recitation (+2 luck bonus to attack rolls, AC, and saves).
Restoration (help yourself and your party by dispelling lingering effects and negetive levels)
dimension door (self-explanatory)
enervation (no save associated with this)
solid fog
stoneskin (never leave home or dual wield without this. best DR money can buy. your tank friends will appreciate a shot of this as well).


36 umd (score of 35 + 1 min roll) will give you these:
Raise Dead
cleric's True Seeing - both are party favorites. true seeing is extremely useful in GH and desert quests.

scrolls with a 40 UMD:
Grtr Heroism
blade barrier (if you can find scrolls of it)
cometfall
heal


just some ideas for added versatility.

Vhlad
06-19-2007, 11:44 AM
How about fixing sneak attack and flanking so it works as per pnp?

That is the main reason rogues in DDO are subpar compared to pnp from a DPS standpoint (relative to the other classes).

EightyFour
06-19-2007, 02:08 PM
Well I have high UMD, I use scrolls, but that's not going to get you invites. To get invites you need to have all the weapns in the high end content and all the good gear helps as well. So you can outfit your rogue to be one of the best of the bunch.

But I'm not really thinking in the sense that I can't get a group, I have a guild that is always willing to help me out so I'm good there.

I was just wishing that something could be added to help rogues without changeing other classes to make that happen.

But I just feel that the rogue does not have something to set them up to be a good party member, something that doesn't force people to take a rogue, but something that well make them want a rogue in the first place.

An ability to insta kill would give them that edge it think, however it doesn't seem that this idea is very popular.

I wish I could come up with something that would make everyone happy and make the rogue a disirable class. Otherwise I fear that with the higher level content, rogues well become a thing of the past.

I see that almost every game has not been able to make rogues a disirable class to play and I figure that DDO has the best shot at doing this. However with the current state of things that is not the class.

Grenfell
06-19-2007, 02:29 PM
I wish I could come up with something that would make everyone happy and make the rogue a disirable class.

Thorough Search I: Requires Rogue 8; 2 AP's - When the Rogue performs a Search around a chest, there is a 25% chance the chest will gain +1 to its loot table.

Thorough Search II: Requires Rogue 11; 4 AP's - When the Rogue performs a Search around a chest, there is a 50% chance the chest will gain +1 to its loot table.

Thorough Search III: Requires Rogue 14; 6 AP's - When the Rogue performs a Search around a chest, there is a 75% chance the chest will gain +1 to its loot table.

Voila! Your wish is granted.

/gren

Talcyndl
06-19-2007, 03:05 PM
Thorough Search I: Requires Rogue 8; 2 AP's - When the Rogue performs a Search around a chest, there is a 25% chance the chest will gain +1 to its loot table.

Thorough Search II: Requires Rogue 11; 4 AP's - When the Rogue performs a Search around a chest, there is a 50% chance the chest will gain +1 to its loot table.

Thorough Search III: Requires Rogue 14; 6 AP's - When the Rogue performs a Search around a chest, there is a 75% chance the chest will gain +1 to its loot table.

Voila! Your wish is granted.

/gren


Every days a Loot Weekend!

:)

Cool idea. Doubt Turbine would go for it though.

Hendrik
06-19-2007, 03:17 PM
I just redid my enhancements last night to take Way of the Mechanic. It gets me a skill point or 2 more in Spot, Search and DD while saving a few enhancement points for other things.

Worked out well.

Thinking Assassin over Acrobat myself. Some of those new poisons look, well, evil!


I cannot count how many times I have redone my Enhancements since the new system was implemented and the additions made. Oddly, my Rogue is the only one I have ever re-enhanced! Just so many choices, so much fun to be had.

Mourning_Star
06-19-2007, 04:05 PM
I stopped playing my 10 human rogue with the advent of the new enhancement system and 32 pt. builds. I don't have a lot of time to play so I'm still trying to get the favor to rebuild him at 32. I love a lot of the ideas in this thread and would like to see more reason to play a pure rogue in ddo. Out in Gianthold this weekend was the first time I've ran into a door my wiz can't knock and a trap (i beleive in Cabal) that did so much damage no one could actually open and loot the chest (both dungeons on elite).

In addition to FluffyDucks and Grenfell's great ideas, I'd like to see:

Sneak that works... My lvl 10 rogue was being spotted by kobolds while soloing some low lvl stuff in harbor for favor.... what's up with that??

What's up with the standard trap box for all the traps?? Can we get some variety? and why does everyone get to see it when they didn't search and find it?

and of course, I WANT EVIL ALIGNMENTS!!! (LE not CE... they just annoy me)

what I don't want to see is Grenfell's cool enhancement line as well as a thorough search clickie.

DNDJESS
06-19-2007, 09:55 PM
There are several problems with the Rogue class. One of the main problems has been discussed in this thread. Historically, one of the Rogues' chief benefits has been Stealthy abilities. And how much does stealth impact this game? Short answer - it doesn't.

Someone suggested adding the Assasinate ability to the game. Think about this for a second: say they added this ability, but Rogues needed to be sneaking to use assasinate, and would have a 50% chance of killing a mob in one hit. How often would groups wait for a Rogue to use this ability, even with a 50% chance he'd succeed? Not very often. Why? Because it would still be faster to have the group rush the mob and chop it down in a matter of seconds.

Now here's the true origin of the problem: Everything in this game happens way too fast. Movement speed, round time, attack speed, and inevitably mobs' deaths. Because of this, Rogues will never be desired for the simple fact that nobody will slow down to allow them to be useful.

Uska
06-20-2007, 12:11 AM
I have a wiz11/rog3 who is basically a trapsmith and buffer/CC who also has a decent UMD. Im sure glad I did all the GH stuff right when it came out. Rogues only shine when content is new imo. I cant get a group with this guy for anything now, prolly should have stayed with the "mold"(13/1) but I already have a capped arcane so it didnt seem like a bad idea at that point. Now Im not so sure.

I have a character close to that shes 2/11 right now rg/wz and keep debating on what to take next rg or wiz proably wiz but I will have 3 rogue levels by 20th though.

EightyFour
06-20-2007, 02:09 AM
Someone suggested adding the Assasinate ability to the game. Think about this for a second: say they added this ability, but Rogues needed to be sneaking to use assasinate, and would have a 50% chance of killing a mob in one hit. How often would groups wait for a Rogue to use this ability, even with a 50% chance he'd succeed? Not very often. Why? Because it would still be faster to have the group rush the mob and chop it down in a matter of seconds.


Well I would just think that you get close, like rush in, tanks engage, get up right behind them or side whatever, drop into sneak and zap them with it. Wasn't really thinking with the idea of the mob's were not agro'ed. I just added the sneak thing because some people like to role play and they might find it more acceptable if they were allowed to do that.

But I guess they could do that anyway, so we could say without sneak.

But I'm kind of trashing that idea anyway as people here seem to not like it.

jaitee
06-20-2007, 02:18 AM
many classes have pros and cons, for example, the bard class, yea, they can buff... and do come CC.... thats about it... and i knwo people will be like +7 to hit .... but even so bards have a hard time too, soo i doubt anything will change soon

Tiblorian
06-20-2007, 03:33 AM
Or turbine can just fix attack speed, damage, and too hit, (and thus decrease monster HP), owait this is turbine we're talking about.

Mourning_Star
06-20-2007, 07:23 AM
Why have a rogue with assasinate when you've got 2 or 3 tanks dual wielding banishing, vorpal, or paralyzers?

DNDJESS is right, everything happens to fast. Even more so with haste.

Cassiline
06-20-2007, 07:26 AM
I dunno if any of you have played with a damage spec rogue, I met one, and usually he ends up somewhere near the top of the killboard. The extra damage from sneak attack, combined with thinking carefully such that every hit becomes one makes rogues DEADLY. At one point we got into this flow where I'd shoot something a couple times to get its attention, and as soon as it got aggroed on me, he'd pop out and stab it many times in the back.

Not getting enough backstabs? A few tricks:
Stay your blade until you don't have aggro (you'll take less damage too!)
heightened glitterdust - blinded monsters=automatic backstab!
Holy Smite - does blind now!
Intimidate - sure finding a fighter with intimidate is hard, but if you do, it gives free sneak attacks on all monsters!
Swap targets repeatedly - If you spread the damage around, less critters will hate you and you'll end up getting more sneak attacks. I don't really like this method as it's hard to make work, but it should work if you have enough people doing enough damage.

Aspenor
06-20-2007, 07:28 AM
Thorough Search I: Requires Rogue 8; 2 AP's - When the Rogue performs a Search around a chest, there is a 25% chance the chest will gain +1 to its loot table.

Thorough Search II: Requires Rogue 11; 4 AP's - When the Rogue performs a Search around a chest, there is a 50% chance the chest will gain +1 to its loot table.

Thorough Search III: Requires Rogue 14; 6 AP's - When the Rogue performs a Search around a chest, there is a 75% chance the chest will gain +1 to its loot table.

Voila! Your wish is granted.

/gren

I have tried to suggest this type of motif for months and months. It would reflect a rogue's ability to find hidden compartments in the chest.

DKerrigan
06-20-2007, 08:10 AM
Look at my Link in my Sig... Tells it all...

IMO a Pure Build Trap rogue is a Bad Build... I made a Sneak attack TWF rogue and most of the time I get 1st or second in kills and stay alive longer then the Tanks... With my Build there is only 1 trap in the game I can not find/disable, the cabal Chest... and a Trap Rogue build is not worth 1 Trap.

It took me awhile But I finally got the Rep as a Good Dmging Rogue and I find it less hard to get into groups.

QFT. You just described my capped pure rogue perfectly.

llevenbaxx
06-20-2007, 08:24 AM
I have a character close to that shes 2/11 right now rg/wz and keep debating on what to take next rg or wiz proably wiz but I will have 3 rogue levels by 20th though.

I kinda already decided that Im going at least 7 maybe even 9 levels of rogue to really get the flavor of the class. With only evaision I really want to make sure I can get my saves vs. traps up. If you are only taking the 3 levels total then Id say definitely wait, if your skills are ok now, you might want to see what Turbines next flavor of the month(so to speak) skill will be. If you need to fortify your skill ranks its much easier to do it on rogue levels as im sure you figured out;)

Like Grens and previously Asps enhancement idea also but its not just pure rogues that have trouble getting groups nowadays from what ive seen, its anyone with more than one or two levels of rogue. MC rogues ARE in fact still rogues and suffer many of the same problems. My hope is that they continue to expand on the diversity of the traps and have quests that make characters say damn I wish I had this or that skill.

DKerrigan
06-20-2007, 08:27 AM
Since everyone's throwing around new enhancements how about...

Improved Critical Sneak Attack Accuracy lvl 12 4 AP doubles your critical range while sneak attacking, stacks with the improved critical feat

Improved Critical Sneak Attack Damage lvl 15 8 AP increases your critical hit dmg modifier by 1 (x2 becomes x3) while sneak attacking

Just don't make it part of the Way of... enhancements...imo they are gimped in that they force you to take a bunch of extra garbage to get a mediocore return.

Talcyndl
06-20-2007, 08:58 AM
There are several problems with the Rogue class. One of the main problems has been discussed in this thread. Historically, one of the Rogues' chief benefits has been Stealthy abilities. And how much does stealth impact this game? Short answer - it doesn't.


To each their own I guess. Personally, I use stealth a lot. :shrug:

Talcyndl
06-20-2007, 09:03 AM
Now here's the true origin of the problem: Everything in this game happens way too fast. Movement speed, round time, attack speed, and inevitably mobs' deaths. Because of this, Rogues will never be desired for the simple fact that nobody will slow down to allow them to be useful.

I agree that a slower game would highlight some of the stealth/trap skills of a rogue. But the fast game highlights a very important advantage of the pure rogue - massive sneak attack damage. As folks mentioned here, it is common for good rogues (playing with good dps fighters) to lead or come close in the kill count.

Rogues who can consistently hit sneak attacks (and have good TWF weapon combos on top of it) can approach if not exceed the damage output of most barbarians.

The problem is that too many folks don't recognize that reality. And to some extent there are too many poorly built and poorly played rogues that reinforce the "squishy liability" view of rogues.

EightyFour
06-20-2007, 09:27 AM
I dunno if any of you have played with a damage spec rogue, I met one, and usually he ends up somewhere near the top of the killboard. The extra damage from sneak attack, combined with thinking carefully such that every hit becomes one makes rogues DEADLY. At one point we got into this flow where I'd shoot something a couple times to get its attention, and as soon as it got aggroed on me, he'd pop out and stab it many times in the back.

Not getting enough backstabs? A few tricks:
Stay your blade until you don't have aggro (you'll take less damage too!)
heightened glitterdust - blinded monsters=automatic backstab!
Holy Smite - does blind now!
Intimidate - sure finding a fighter with intimidate is hard, but if you do, it gives free sneak attacks on all monsters!
Swap targets repeatedly - If you spread the damage around, less critters will hate you and you'll end up getting more sneak attacks. I don't really like this method as it's hard to make work, but it should work if you have enough people doing enough damage.

Prob. leader of the death board as well.

Cassiline
06-20-2007, 10:12 AM
Prob. leader of the death board as well.

nah, he was good, he made sure he didn't get the aggro. If he did get aggro, he'd wait a second, I'd unload another arrow into it, and it'd be back on me. I think the two of us were near the bottom of the death list, and we were doing a goodly portion of the combat. Subtle backstab is there for a reason!

Talcyndl
06-20-2007, 10:22 AM
Prob. leader of the death board as well.

:rolleyes:

ahpook
06-20-2007, 11:24 AM
Some good discussion here. IMHO, anything to do with making traps more deadly or difficult is not the right way to make more rogues more desirable. Rogue does not equal trap monkey.

To make rogues more useful, focus on the sneak and damage. (UMD is not specifically rogue and only adds versatility, a rogue that can use scrolls is not better than a caster than can use those same scrolls and cast natively.)

If sneaking can be used to accomplish goals and avoid fights that can be very useful. Especially if the group does not have to wait around while the rogue is doing it. There are a few places now where this can be done. For example in The Crucible the rogue can sneak in to grab seals in the maze. He can grab the key and horn from gnolls but the problem with this is the party has to just wait around while this being done. In Made To Order he can grab the seals without fighting the golems. We could use more of this style of play Sneaking to pull levers or steal keys to gain access to something is uniquely rogue.

Damage is pretty good but more would always be better. The PnP D6's of damage are a little weak in this game but there are enhancements that can be used to boost this damage if a rogue wants to spec for it. The assassinate ability could be good and it would seem to be a nice feat for level 16. Crippling strike is also very nice as it helps parties sustain less damage when used appropriately.

The truth is you can do a lot of damage and use sneak to benefit at times. The biggest problem is perception of the players that rogues == trapmonkey and therefore not needed. Which leads back to my first request to not make changes that support this misperception.

Leetsneaks101
06-20-2007, 11:46 AM
Well, I agree that assassinate could be an interesting feature for the rogue, but something I think might be a bit more realistic and come sooner is summed up in two words....trap randomization.

If every quest had their traps randomization, except for a few that are integral to the quest's completion or theme, then I think rogues would truly find a bit more work. My elven rogue has been around since two weeks after launch and I'd be rich if I had a dollar everytime someone denied my request to join a group.

I hope The Rocking Dead and others are reading this post, because I think this could be a welcome change for us rogues, plus it would give each dungeon a little something different each time you repeated it, which, of course, we all know is necessary in DDO.

That is truly what this game needs. Randomization, and not only traps. Its become boring running the same exact thing, over and over. I think that this will attract and most definetly keep a lot of players. Truly, I have been getting 'bored.' But with this, I would most certainly sit back all night and enjoy the beauty of not knowing anything about where things are in a dungeon. Very VERY good suggestion Rind.

KristovK
06-20-2007, 11:51 AM
Buddy of mine plays a rogue/ranger build, has a lot of fun with it and can usually outkill anyone in any party, except on the Reaver Raid...eley's being immune to sneak and that nasty little whirlwind knocking him flying, he can't get a hit with his banishers. And yes, he does usually top the death's list as well, but that's because HE is too aggressive, it's not the build :)

I had a rogue I'd created last April when the cap was 10 and the enhancement system was radically different. Pure trapmonkey build, but deadly enough when getting sneak attacks in, and boring to play because of the total lack of any combat skills. Rerolled a WF build, 1wiz/1rogue/1fighter/rogue on out(feats at level are important ya know), 9th level now and a blast to play, although I've considered adding another level of fighter at 12th(2nd fighter gets 1 extra feat...possibly taking repeater or kama) TWF, ImpTWF, maxed out rogue skills, self healing and buffing ability without having to worry about UMD from the wiz level, AND a high UMD score to allow usage of rr items and non-arcane scrolls/wands. Unless we're facing undead, leader of the kill counts and has maybe 4 deaths total to date. Aggro management is a rogue builds bestest friend you know, as are big bad meatshields to hide behind if mobs notice you(which they'll ALWAYS do when you get multiple sneaks while TWFing!). Took Way of the Mechanic(WF ya know) and the skill boosts it gives are useful, but that WF healing over time is really nice, even use it on myself once in a while instead of other WF in the party(great to hit myself with BEFORE getting into what will be a big nasty furball, especially if there are multiple enemy casters involved). Being a WF has some nice advantages for a rogue...weak will saves mean nothing when you are immune to paralyze/hold, weak fort saves mean nothing when you are immune to poison/disease/exhaustion and level drain. Also means less slots used for immunity items and only needing a mod fort item to get heavy fort(which can be found on 6th level rr items or 8th level non-rr items!), and being immune to crits is a rogue builds 2nd bestest friend. Toss in some of the sneak attack enhancements and those sneak attacks get truely nasty...add in some sneak attack boosting weapons and watch your AB equal or exceed a fighter of the same level and damage beyond what a barbarian can hand out, and you do it on a consistant basis if you manage aggro properly(Bluff, big meatshields to hide behind, casters who don't understand aggro management-personal favorite!).

I don't have problems getting into a group, and if there's not many LFMs up, I'll start my own group. That might have something to do with the server I play on, Argo, because there's a lot of well built rogue based builds that are also killing machines and few people who've been around for any time at all dislike having them in the party...well..ok..some e-pen envious tanks don't like them, getting outkilled by a rogue is worse then a woman laughing at em I guess :)

Mourning_Star
06-20-2007, 02:18 PM
If sneaking can be used to accomplish goals and avoid fights that can be very useful. Especially if the group does not have to wait around while the rogue is doing it. There are a few places now where this can be done. For example in The Crucible the rogue can sneak in to grab seals in the maze. He can grab the key and horn from gnolls but the problem with this is the party has to just wait around while this being done. In Made To Order he can grab the seals without fighting the golems. We could use more of this style of play Sneaking to pull levers or steal keys to gain access to something is uniquely rogue.


I think the aggression xp bonus (when you're not capped) really pushes the kill them all and take there stuff play. Why would you want a rogue to sneak in to grab stuff if it means losing a 10%xp bonus? I think the addition of a stealth bonus to xp for stealthily completing objectives/whatever would be a huge boost to rogues.

EightyFour
06-20-2007, 02:30 PM
nah, he was good, he made sure he didn't get the aggro. If he did get aggro, he'd wait a second, I'd unload another arrow into it, and it'd be back on me. I think the two of us were near the bottom of the death list, and we were doing a goodly portion of the combat. Subtle backstab is there for a reason!

Well it sounds like he knows what he's doing with Subtle backstab, it helps with a lot of agro. It's sounds as if he is using what he has to the fullest ability.

ahpook
06-20-2007, 02:30 PM
I think the aggression xp bonus (when you're not capped) really pushes the kill them all and take there stuff play. Why would you want a rogue to sneak in to grab stuff if it means losing a 10%xp bonus? I think the addition of a stealth bonus to xp for stealthily completing objectives/whatever would be a huge boost to rogues.

Totally agree. The stealthy bonus you get now for not killing very much is a total joke as often the quest requires you to kill so much that it isn't even an option.

Mercules
06-20-2007, 02:44 PM
Since everyone's throwing around new enhancements how about...

Improved Critical Sneak Attack Accuracy lvl 12 4 AP doubles your critical range while sneak attacking, stacks with the improved critical feat

Improved Critical Sneak Attack Damage lvl 15 8 AP increases your critical hit dmg modifier by 1 (x2 becomes x3) while sneak attacking

Just don't make it part of the Way of... enhancements...imo they are gimped in that they force you to take a bunch of extra garbage to get a mediocore return.

Extra Garbage?

6 Rogue Way of the Assassin I Grants a +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves versus Poison. Also grants the ability to expend a use of Damage Boost to gain a large bonus to confirm critical hits, a bonus to hit while sneak attacking, and the ability to inflict a mind affecting poison on critical hits for a short period of time. You may possess only one class specialty at a time.
Action Points: 4 (must have spent 16 action points)
Prerequisites: Rogue Hide II AND
Rogue Move Silently II

For someone planning on using Sneak Attack having a couple extra points in Hide and Move Silently is not a bad thing. Yes it would be nicer if Stealth was a better option, but it isn't total garbage and a Stealthy Rogue can sometimes turn a party-wipe around by grabbing stones after loosing the agro.


6 Rogue Way of the Mechanic I Grants a +2 bonus to Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, Search, and Spot skills. Also grants the ability to expend a use of Skill Boost to repair a warforged. You may possess only one class specialty at a time.
Action Points: 4 (must have spent 16 action points)
Prerequisites: Rogue Disable Device II AND
Rogue Open Lock II
Rogue Fire Trap Lore I OR
Rogue Acid Trap Lore I OR
Rogue Cold Trap Lore I OR
Rogue Sonic Trap Lore I OR
Rogue Electric Trap Lore I

Hmmm... trap based rogue having to take DD and OL? Maybe you are refering to the Elem. Trap Lore? My Rogue picked Acid and it gives him 2 points turning Melfs from a Deadly surprise into a mild annoyance and with something as simple as Lesser Elemental Resistance Acid on an item I am immune. ;)


6 Rogue Way of the Thief-Acrobat I Grants a +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills and 2 extra uses per day of Uncanny Dodge. Also grants the ability to expend a use of Haste Boost to dramatically increase these skills and gain a movement and dexterity bonus for a short period of time. You may possess only one class specialty at a time.
Action Points: 4 (must have spent 16 action points)
Prerequisites: Rogue Tumble II AND
Rogue Balance II

Well, the whole Thief-Acrobat Way isn't great to begin with except for a maybe a Rogue based around Ranged damage with the speed/dex boost. Uncanny Dodge can be useful. Hmmmm...

Talcyndl
06-20-2007, 02:57 PM
Hmmm... trap based rogue having to take DD and OL?


Realistically, a dex-based rogue isn't going to need to take any OL enhancements to open even the top end locks.

That being said, even figuring in that extra cost, for most rogues who currently spend point for the other trap skills, WotM is a good investment. You get more points in those skills for less overall cost.

Mercules
06-20-2007, 03:39 PM
Realistically, a dex-based rogue isn't going to need to take any OL enhancements to open even the top end locks.

That being said, even figuring in that extra cost, for most rogues who currently spend point for the other trap skills, WotM is a good investment. You get more points in those skills for less overall cost.

It does mean I don't have to worry about a good OL item or using good Thieves' Tools for locks and I am not Dex based. Basically, Way of the Mechanic allows me to focus on the +11-+13 Spot/Search items and Wis items instead of worrying about those AND worrying about DD/OL. ;)

Vhlad
06-20-2007, 03:40 PM
I dunno if any of you have played with a damage spec rogue, I met one, and usually he ends up somewhere near the top of the killboard. The extra damage from sneak attack, combined with thinking carefully such that every hit becomes one makes rogues DEADLY. At one point we got into this flow where I'd shoot something a couple times to get its attention, and as soon as it got aggroed on me, he'd pop out and stab it many times in the back.

Not getting enough backstabs? A few tricks:
Stay your blade until you don't have aggro (you'll take less damage too!)...


Killboard does not equal DPS. Again, the Turbine coding of sneak attack and flanking is what makes rogues subpar in DDO from a DPS standpoint. If you are holding back until someone else gets aggro (i.e. until the monster is at 50-70%), and you still do not end up at the very top of the killboard, that means:
1) Whoever has aggro does ALL the damage for that 30-50% where you are sitting on your thumbs waiting.
2) Whoever has aggro does MORE damage than you for that 70-50% when you finally decide to jump in.

Rogues simply will not compare until they can either get a) or b), where:
a) MORE (and not just a little more) damage than a fighter/barb during the time they are attacking (to make up for the zero damage the rogue is dealing while waiting)
b) The ability to sneak attack ANY flanked creature (that is susceptible to sneak attacks), irrespective of aggro or facing, as per pnp.

Mercules
06-20-2007, 04:01 PM
Killboard does not equal DPS. Again, the Turbine coding of sneak attack and flanking is what makes rogues subpar in DDO from a DPS standpoint. If you are holding back until someone else gets aggro (i.e. until the monster is at 50-70%), and you still do not end up at the very top of the killboard, that means:
1) Whoever has aggro does ALL the damage for that 30-50% where you are sitting on your thumbs waiting.
2) Whoever has aggro does MORE damage than you for that 70-50% when you finally decide to jump in.

Rogues simply will not compare until they can either get a) or b), where:
a) MORE damage than a fighter/barb during the time they are attacking (to make up for the zero damage the rogue is dealing while waiting)
b) The ability to sneak attack ANY flanked creature (that is susceptible to sneak attacks), irrespective of aggro or facing, as per pnp.

With a halfway decent Intimidate Tank my Rogue can start DPS immediately. It's not a Rogue issue, it's a playstyle issue. Too many tanks refuse to use Intimidate or Sunder to help the rest of the party out. Their responce, "I don't need it to kill things."

Also, the Subtle Backstabber(right now) really helps me do as much damage as a Fighter and not grab the agro. Heck, I use Cleave on my Rogue(Dwarven build with an ok Str and Dwarven Axes) and still don't grab agro every time. I can grab Agro if I try, despite my enhancement, which tells me I can easily outdamage the fighters in the group. Guess what though, they get one more swing than I and if I skip one swing They can pull it right back so I can again do a burst of damage.

You are also forgetting all the states that allow Sneak Attacks. Blindness, Stunned, and Held alone make a Rogue a DPS monster. Glitterdust is cheap and easy blindness as is Holy Smite. A talented skill tank will rush in, Intimidate, Trip one mob, Stunning Blow a second, and then kill a third. If the Rogue follows him in and focuses on the Stunned one and the rest of the party on the tripped one you can destroy a group of mobs quickly....

but then that would require tactics or thought... maybe a little consideration and less focus on Kill Count.

DKerrigan
06-20-2007, 04:13 PM
Extra Garbage?
::snip::

Yes, the compendium doesn't list all of the action boosts and other GARBAGE you have to take to get them, unless they changed them and I just wasn't paying attention... If it was just 6 or so AP like the compendium said I'd have at least tried one...



Rogue Specialties: You may only possess one class specialty at a time.

Way of the Mechanic I


Cost: 4 Action Points
Requires: Level 6 Rogue, 16 Action Points spent. Rogue Disable Device II (3), Rogue Open Lock II(3), Rogue Trap Sense I(1), Rogue Skill Boost II(3), any Rogue <element> Trap Lore I(1).11 pts. total
Benefit: +2 bonus to Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, Spot, and Search skills. Activate to apply a repair over time effect to a targetted friendly Warforged or Construct. Consumes one use of Rogue Skill Boost for the day. Good for trap monkey builds and WF and those who are worried about being able to help the 5 WF they'll ever run with in higher level content.

Way of the Thief-Acrobat I

Cost: 4 Action Points
Requires: Level 6 Rogue, 16 Action Points spent. Rogue Balance II(3), Rogue Tumble II(3), Rogue Faster Sneaking I(1), Rogue Haste Boost II(3), Rogue Dexterity I (2). 12 pts. total
Benefit: +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills and 2 extra uses of Uncanny Dodge per day. Activate to gain a +10 bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble, a 25% Enhancement bonus to movement speed, and a +4 bonus to Dexterity for 20 seconds. Consumes one use of Rogue Haste Boost for the day. Good for...uh...yeah...

Way of the Assassin I

Cost: 4 Action Points
Requires: Level 6 Rogue, 16 Action Points spent. Rogue Hide II(3), Rogue Move Silently II(3), Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy I(2), Rogue Sneak Attack Training I(1), Rogue Subtle Backstabber I(1), Rogue Damage Boost II(3).13 pts. total
Benefit: +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus to Fortitude saves versus Poison. Activate to gain a +2 bonus to hit when making sneak attacks, a +20 bonus to confirm critical hits, and a 25% chance to apply a mind affecting poison with each sneak attack, for 20 seconds. Consumes one use of Rogue Damage Boost for the day. Would possibly be useful if you could select a stat to poison...+1 to save vs. poison is useful for 1 level until you hit level 7 and can wear Protection from Poison items or you got a rr one at level 5 and it's already worthless...the one I'd most consider, if ^only^ it were tied to the haste boost instead of the damage boost...


At a cost of 11-13 AP per "Way" for the relatively minor return, plus being sunk into spending another 7-13 AP to get to 'X' boost IV and take the 2 extra boost enhancements just so you can benefit from these for 2 - 2 1/2 minutes in a 20 minute quest; I'll keep my +3 to hit for SAs, +6 Dex, -40% hate, etc...thanks...

[EDIT: You're talking about me spending 20% of my available enhancements just to access these, and another 15-20% to get the most bang for my buck...imo those points are better spent elsewhere...]

I think this was Turbine's attempt at salvaging the worthless rogue boosts...but hey...if you use it and like it more power to you...

DKerrigan
06-20-2007, 04:35 PM
Killboard does not equal DPS. Again, the Turbine coding of sneak attack and flanking is what makes rogues subpar in DDO from a DPS standpoint. If you are holding back until someone else gets aggro (i.e. until the monster is at 50-70%), and you still do not end up at the very top of the killboard, that means:
1) Whoever has aggro does ALL the damage for that 30-50% where you are sitting on your thumbs waiting.
2) Whoever has aggro does MORE damage than you for that 70-50% when you finally decide to jump in.

Rogues simply will not compare until they can either get a) or b), where:
a) MORE damage than a fighter/barb during the time they are attacking (to make up for the zero damage the rogue is dealing while waiting)
b) The ability to sneak attack ANY flanked creature (that is susceptible to sneak attacks), irrespective of aggro or facing, as per pnp.

Your numbers seem to be a little out of whack, unless you're insta-criting mobs to get 30% of their health off before the rogue gets in...an ITWF rogue is getting 2 more attacks than you, with sneak attack dice. Personally I'm also hitting with a greater bane weap. in my main hand and a paralyzer in my off...AND helping all parties involved by attacking from a flanking position. if you're keeping score that's 3 attacks for 10d6 and 3 attacks for 7d6 without including actual weapon damage and possible elemental damage, depending on which GB I use.

Also, don't underestimate 4 ranks of subtle backstabber...I can repeatedly attack (and hit) mobs that are L.o.S. aggroed and not have them break off to attack me.

Vhlad
06-20-2007, 05:22 PM
Your numbers seem to be a little out of whack, unless you're insta-criting mobs to get 30% of their health off before the rogue gets in...an ITWF rogue is getting 2 more attacks than you, with sneak attack dice. Personally I'm also hitting with a greater bane weap. in my main hand and a paralyzer in my off...AND helping all parties involved by attacking from a flanking position. if you're keeping score that's 3 attacks for 10d6 and 3 attacks for 7d6 without including actual weapon damage and possible elemental damage, depending on which GB I use.

Also, don't underestimate 4 ranks of subtle backstabber...I can repeatedly attack (and hit) mobs that are L.o.S. aggroed and not have them break off to attack me.

First, Line of Sight is not aggro. Second:
Replace 30-50% with X and Y.
Replace 70% with 100 - X and 50% with Y.

Happy?

The fact remains that during the time where you are WAITING for someone else to grab aggro, you are doing zero damage. Unless you are doing more damage than whoever has aggro when you finally decide to jump in (to make up for the damage they delt that you did not while you were waiting), your DPS will be subpar.

If they fix it so that you get sneak attacks on a susceptible FLANKED creature, irrespective of aggro, then there is no more waiting around to make sure you get that 10d6 or 7d6. This is purely a result of how Turbine diverged with regard to pnp guidelines.

Finally, re-visiting the 30-50%:
30% of attacks = crit for SoS on fighter. 40% for barbarian. That's 150 average damage (fighter) or 189 (barbarian) avg damage on a crit for any reasonably built DPSer (and these aren't even optimum DPSer values).
Add 19-25 damage if that swing is on the 1st or 4th attack in the chain.
Standard attacks are 44 avg damage for fighter or 53 avg dmg barbarian (again, these are NON-OPTIMUM values).

7d6 is only 24.5 average damage.
10d6 is 35 average damage (and you don't get 10d6 until level 19).

For a Str based rogue, you can approach the DPS, but the fact still remains that you have to wait for someone else to get aggro, and during that time you are doing zero damage, and when you do decide to do damage, you are not outdoing the DPSer enough to make up for it.


Too many tanks refuse to use Intimidate or Sunder to help the rest of the party out. Their responce, "I don't need it to kill things."
Things die too fast. Intimidate is not instant, and there is a delay between after you use it and when you can attack again. I think the main difference here is people at the highest level of play vs people who are not. Intimidate can help in Raids (sometimes) but for standard mobs and for any UBER DPS group, it is a complete waste of time.

Anyway, my initial point was to not look at the kill count entirely, because the rogue IS just sitting there at times and not continuously DPSing.

DNDJESS
06-20-2007, 07:12 PM
Extra Garbage?

6 Rogue Way of the Assassin I Grants a +2 bonus to Bluff, Hide, and Move Silently skills and a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves versus Poison. Also grants the ability to expend a use of Damage Boost to gain a large bonus to confirm critical hits, a bonus to hit while sneak attacking, and the ability to inflict a mind affecting poison on critical hits for a short period of time. You may possess only one class specialty at a time.
Action Points: 4 (must have spent 16 action points)
Prerequisites: Rogue Hide II AND
Rogue Move Silently II

For someone planning on using Sneak Attack having a couple extra points in Hide and Move Silently is not a bad thing. Yes it would be nicer if Stealth was a better option, but it isn't total garbage and a Stealthy Rogue can sometimes turn a party-wipe around by grabbing stones after loosing the agro.


6 Rogue Way of the Mechanic I Grants a +2 bonus to Disable Device, Open Lock, Repair, Search, and Spot skills. Also grants the ability to expend a use of Skill Boost to repair a warforged. You may possess only one class specialty at a time.
Action Points: 4 (must have spent 16 action points)
Prerequisites: Rogue Disable Device II AND
Rogue Open Lock II
Rogue Fire Trap Lore I OR
Rogue Acid Trap Lore I OR
Rogue Cold Trap Lore I OR
Rogue Sonic Trap Lore I OR
Rogue Electric Trap Lore I

Hmmm... trap based rogue having to take DD and OL? Maybe you are refering to the Elem. Trap Lore? My Rogue picked Acid and it gives him 2 points turning Melfs from a Deadly surprise into a mild annoyance and with something as simple as Lesser Elemental Resistance Acid on an item I am immune. ;)


6 Rogue Way of the Thief-Acrobat I Grants a +2 bonus to Balance, Jump, and Tumble skills and 2 extra uses per day of Uncanny Dodge. Also grants the ability to expend a use of Haste Boost to dramatically increase these skills and gain a movement and dexterity bonus for a short period of time. You may possess only one class specialty at a time.
Action Points: 4 (must have spent 16 action points)
Prerequisites: Rogue Tumble II AND
Rogue Balance II

Well, the whole Thief-Acrobat Way isn't great to begin with except for a maybe a Rogue based around Ranged damage with the speed/dex boost. Uncanny Dodge can be useful. Hmmmm...

Well, you can make the argument that any enhancement is useful. Hell, if they required you to get swim enhancements for these abilities, you could still argue that it's useful. But when you consider what enhancements you could be getting with the points you're spending on these prerequisites, you realize how much weaker your character acually becomes.

Here's another way to judge these prerequisites: How many of these would you ever purchase if they weren't required? Would you ever spend points on balance or tumble? Not likely. Trap lore? Even less likely. Hide and move silently? Doubtful; any current Rogue that frequently uses sneak probably already has his skill high enough without these enhancements.

Talcyndl
06-20-2007, 10:39 PM
Unless you are doing more damage than whoever has aggro when you finally decide to jump in (to make up for the damage they delt that you did not while you were waiting), your DPS will be subpar.

A well played rogue misses 1 attack - the first. And that one attack 'lost' is easily made up for on the extra twf attacks.

From there on, a TWF rogue is out-DPS's most fighters. If they weren't the kill count numbers wouldn't show them often leading.

Not to mention a pure rogue at level 13 is also doing 2 points of strength damage every attack. That has a noticable effect and help a party fly through stuff.

But whatever, avoid rogues in your parties. Your loss.

KristovK
06-21-2007, 01:11 AM
I'm a bit confused here...people keep saying that sneak attacks don't work as they should but I'm not sure what they mean....

Whenever my rogue is behind a mob, I get sneak damage(minus the current bug with elemental weapons on first attack on a non-aggro'd mob), this even works in PvP, if behind the target, sneak damage is applied every attack until the target is no longer flanked. Now, maybe it's just me, but flanking typically means the target's flank(it's rear) is to you, not it's face, so it's a bit difficult to get a flank attack on a target facing you, yes? Now, some think that if you are on a target's side, you should get a flanking bonus, and there are times when this is true...provided you are on the flank side as opposed to the facing side. PnP has a very simple diagrams that show this clearly, yet people still confuse side with flank, so I guess it's not surprising that people do the same in DDO. Facing side is anywhere in the target's possible periphal vision, essentially 70 degrees to the left/right of full face of the target. Since there's 360 degrees around a target, you have 140 that don't give a flanking bonus and 220 that give it, giving rogues one hells of a wide window of attacking for sneak damage. I know my rogue, and my fighter builds with flanking enhancements, get the flanking bonuses when not on a face or facing side, along with the sneak damages where applicable(2 fighter builds with flank bonuses, one uses sneak attack weapons on top of that). This goes even WHEN my toon has aggro but gets around to a flanking position using tumble or jumping.

As far as pure DPS goes...using finesse weapons the straight DPS isn't that impressive at first glance, but using 1d6 weapons(my personal preferance for TWF unless I've got burst kukris), average is 3pts straight damage plus Str bonus(my own case, +3), so that's 6 pts damage off the bat from the weapon. Add in 4d6+2 sneak(sneak enhancements) which is 15 and we're up to 21 pts. Using this alone, no elemental or bane, and my rogue is currently kicking out 84 pts average per sequence(4 per sequence due to ITWF). Dex fighter with same would be doing 6 +...well..that's it, x5 would be 30 average per sequence. Str based fighter would be doing 4 + 6 x4 which is 40 using a LS or Koph, or 6 +9 x4 which is 60 with a GS or GA. That's not including elemental, alignment or bane damages, which are all situational, but even with those, the DPS still favors the rogue build by a large amount(128 vs 96 for a GS/GA). Now, true, this requires that all attacks the rogue makes to be sneak attacks, but so far, that isn't a problem with my rogue unless I'm dealing with undead or elementals. High Bluff skill, smart attacking, always making sure I'm on the flanks, sneaks are a constant and it shows in the kill counts. It's one thing for a rogue build to be a few kills higher in the count, but to be 10 or more above, sometimes up to double the next highest? Sorry, that ain't just eeking out the kill with a lucky shot, that's someone putting out serious dps consistantly.

I didn't believe it myself until I saw my friend doing it consistantly in GH with his rogue/ranger build, it was just amazing. 2 ranger/12 rogue, with the proper weapon for everything, he dominated the kill counts(and the deaths) and it was really an eye opener. Building my own toon with a different setup I've been impressed as hells at the sheer dps capability of the design, especially when played smart as opposed to being a zerger(like my friend). I've seen other people doing the same thing with various build templates and it's always impressive when they are played smart, using the strengths of the rogue instead of trying to tank. Trapmonkey and walking cuisenart(which with my WF build is rather appropiate).

Vhlad
06-21-2007, 06:15 AM
A well played rogue misses 1 attack - the first. And that one attack 'lost' is easily made up for on the extra twf attacks.

From there on, a TWF rogue is out-DPS's most fighters. If they weren't the kill count numbers wouldn't show them often leading.

Not to mention a pure rogue at level 13 is also doing 2 points of strength damage every attack. That has a noticable effect and help a party fly through stuff.

But whatever, avoid rogues in your parties. Your loss.

First, I have a TWF rogue.
Second, I never even hinted at avoiding rogues.
Third, most fighters are not uber. So yes, A well built TWF rogue can out DPS most fighters. I dont care about "most" though. I'm looking at an uber rogue vs an uber fighter/barb, and the rogue loses.

Ok, here's a barb with no outside buffs (assuming no misses, because if you're waiting for someone else to get aggro then you're waiting for them to hit):
0.4*199.5 + 0.6*60.5 + 0.5*25 (glancing blow every other swing)
That's 128.6 damage (average) from missing that first attack.

Let's pair that up with a 30 str rogue, using a SoS, bloodstone, all the 2 handed fighting feats, 40% less hate enhancement, sneak attack damage enhancement, we'll even give them +1 from divine favor, +4 more str from double stacked madstone boots, +2 more str from rage, improved critical, power attack, hell. Make it a warforged rogue with the power attack enhancement too:
0.3*177 +0.7*53 +0.5*22 + 32.5 (average sneak attack damage from 7d6 plus 8 from sneak attack enhancement)

That's 133.7 average damage (omg leet damage). Or rather, 5.1 more average damage per hit.

Considering they missed that first 128.6 though: It will take them 25.2 hits to catch up to the barb in DPS. The monster will be dead long, LONG before then. That's why rogue loses, even in the extreme DPS rogue case. The whole sitting around and waiting thing. (People who look at just the killboard often miss this point entirely).


I'm a bit confused here...people keep saying that sneak attacks don't work as they should but I'm not sure what they mean....

Flanking as per pnp has nothing to do with facing. From http://www.dandwiki.com (rogue and flank sections):



Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.

With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.

A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.



FLANKING
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

In other words, if the monster has 1 rogue to his left, and 1 rogue to his right, both rogues are flanking, and both are getting sneak attack. It has nothing to do with "aggro" and will always be why the rogue will be subpar (respective to the other classes, relative to pnp) from a DPS standpoint in DDO (even if the rogue does leet damage :D!)
(until they fix the way they code sneak attack and flanking and bring it in line as per pnp).

Edit:
I'm not saying "rogues are teh sux0r." I'm just making it clear that top of killboard does not equal most DPS, and that the coding of sneakattack + flanking in ddo undermines some of what makes a rogue strong in pnp.

DKerrigan
06-21-2007, 08:39 AM
First, Line of Sight is not aggro. Second:
Replace 30-50% with X and Y.
Replace 70% with 100 - X and 50% with Y.

Happy?
Uh, ok, what do you call it when full health mobs see a PC, charge, are attacked and hit for around 50-60 pts of dmg, and don't stop, continuing to charge the PC? Sounds like they're aggroed on something to me, but then I might not be up on my "jargon"...

The fact remains that during the time where you are WAITING for someone else to grab aggro, you are doing zero damage. Unless you are doing more damage than whoever has aggro when you finally decide to jump in (to make up for the damage they delt that you did not while you were waiting), your DPS will be subpar.
You keep operating under the false assumption that all rogues sit for 20 seconds and wait for tanks to "grab aggro." The ones that you have the misfortune of running with might, but all don't need to with the proper enhancements. 85% of the time I'm the first one to the mob, swords a blazin'.

If they fix it so that you get sneak attacks on a susceptible FLANKED creature, irrespective of aggro, then there is no more waiting around to make sure you get that 10d6 or 7d6. This is purely a result of how Turbine diverged with regard to pnp guidelines.

Finally, re-visiting the 30-50%:
30% of attacks = crit for SoS on fighter. 40% for barbarian. That's 150 average damage (fighter) or 189 (barbarian) avg damage on a crit for any reasonably built DPSer (and these aren't even optimum DPSer values).
Add 19-25 damage if that swing is on the 1st or 4th attack in the chain.
Standard attacks are 44 avg damage for fighter or 53 avg dmg barbarian (again, these are NON-OPTIMUM values).

7d6 is only 24.5 average damage.
10d6 is 35 average damage (and you don't get 10d6 until level 19).

Reading comprehension ftw? 7d6 sneak attack dice + 3d6 greater bane dice = 10d6 dmg per swing with that weapon, at level 14. Not including the possibility of elemental dmg on top of all of that (depending on the weapon, usually +d6) and the weapon dmg itself(+d6+say, 2 to stay on the low side). Leaving the elemental dmg out of it because it's not always there, you've got 11d6+2 for a finesse rogue on a normal attack (NON-OPTIMUM values since Str. dmg bonus isn't included, Str. shouldn't be a dump stat for finesse characters people) around 40 or so dmg per hit on a non-crit (ICP crit ranges 15-20 and 17-20 for anything that isn't a pick btw).


For a Str based rogue, you can approach the DPS, but the fact still remains that you have to wait for someone else to get aggro, and during that time you are doing zero damage, and when you do decide to do damage, you are not outdoing the DPSer enough to make up for it.

Again, they wait, I fight.


Things die too fast. Intimidate is not instant, and there is a delay between after you use it and when you can attack again. I think the main difference here is people at the highest level of play vs people who are not. Intimidate can help in Raids (sometimes) but for standard mobs and for any UBER DPS group, it is a complete waste of time.

Anyway, my initial point was to not look at the kill count entirely, because the rogue IS just sitting there at times and not continuously DPSing.

Agreed. The "last hit" count is complete garbage and I don't bother with it. I don't bother with it to the point of jumping on a mob, taking away 60-70% of it's HP and leaving it for the fighter to mop up while I'm off to anihilate the next one.

Vhlad
06-21-2007, 09:29 AM
You keep operating under the false assumption that all rogues sit for 20 seconds and wait for tanks to "grab aggro."

I never made any such assumption, and for you to suggest so indicates (to me) that taking this conversation any further with you might be utterly pointless. Maybe you should have read my last post before responding?

I'm not even sure what point you're arguing anyway. If you jump in with a rogue first, you get aggro and lose sneak attack on subsequent attacks. If you wait, you miss at least 1 attack (which lowers your DPS). It's almost black and white.

The exceptions are:
a) every single mob is blinded (or whatever) by the time you get there or make your second attack
b) You run in, swing, get 1 sneak attack, and then someone else hits the same mob at that moment for enough damage to grab aggro in time for your second attack to be a sneak attack
c) You run in, swing, get 1 sneak attack, then switch targets, get 1 sneak attack, switch targets, etc.

Exception a) simply does not happen at high end play (any mob not instakilled by zerging DPSers is PK'd / finger of death'd by the caster (or vise-versa)).
Exception b) rarely happens. But if you want to put it in the DPS analysis, it would have to occur around 85% of the time for the extreme DPS rogue to come ahead.
Exception c) is not always possible or ideal

Back to my point, in pnp you would not need a, b or c. Again, purely a result of DDO's implementation of sneak attack and flanking. Rogue SHOULD (in the right situations) be DPS king, but it is not so, even in the most perfect extreme circumstances.

Talcyndl
06-21-2007, 10:01 AM
Considering they missed that first 128.6 though: It will take them 25.2 hits to catch up to the barb in DPS. The monster will be dead long, LONG before then. That's why rogue loses, even in the extreme DPS rogue case. The whole sitting around and waiting thing. (People who look at just the killboard often miss this point entirely).


You miss the fact that in most battles 25.2 hits is nothing. You have multiple enemies and the rogue only needs to wait at the very beginning of the overall battle - not for each monster.

Once again, even though the kill count only records the killing blow, when you are dealing with 3 or so front line melee characters, its is still a good approximation of overall damage output. Because once the battles start and you are wading through 5, 10, 15 enemies, the highest DPS is going to get the most kills.

Vhlad
06-21-2007, 10:16 AM
You miss the fact that in most battles 25.2 hits is nothing.

If you think 25.2 hits in most battles is nothing, then we're not referring to the same level of play. Furthermore, that 25.2 number comes from an analysis where every swing is a hit. Obviously the barb will have a much higher to hit (higher BAB, more STR) than the str rogue in that specific analysis. Do you REALLY think 25.2 hits is nothing?

That's like 3240.72 average damage from a barb vs low AC mobs that are not immune to crits and have no DR (assuming no outside buffs). Put another DPS fighter or barb and a DPS rogue in. Add 2 casters or a bard or some clerics (or hell, 4 barbs, 1 rogue, 1 bard. OR 1 barb 1 rogue, 4 sorcs). Even if you trained 50 monsters, they're all going to be dead before that rogue can go 1234 1234 1234 1234 1234 1234 12

In a pug or with non optimum fighters/barbs/casters, I know my rogue can get #1 kills. But I also know 100% that comparing uber vs uber, rogue will lose. (and maybe a rogue should lose, because they bring other things to the table than DPS, but if this was coded as per pnp for sneak attack, the DPS rogue would win).

The coding of flanking/sneak attack is also harder on newer DDO players (with pnp experience) playing rogue for the first time. Which brings us back to the title of the thread: "Thought playing a rogue would be fun, it's not for me, idea to help change that "

So, again, idea = fix coding of sneak attack, bring it in line with pnp.

Talcyndl
06-21-2007, 10:53 AM
If you think 25.2 hits in most battles is nothing, then we're not referring to the same level of play. Furthermore, that 25.2 number comes from an analysis where every swing is a hit. Obviously the barb will have a much higher to hit (higher BAB, more STR) than the str rogue in that specific analysis. Do you REALLY think 25.2 hits is nothing?


Yup. At level 14, a twf rogue is going to have 6 attacks per round. Those rounds go quick. Most enemies at higher levels take multiple hits - often close to ten - to bring down. So yeah, 2 or 3 enemies is nothing.

Oh and I know the numbers will be a bit different, but I base my views on experience with a finesse rogue. Maybe a few points less damage, but with a 30 Dex, sneak attack accuracy, and good weapons, I rarely miss even on the hardest to hit stuff in the game.

KristovK
06-21-2007, 11:00 AM
Vlahd, maybe you should re-read those passages you quoted...

The passages you quoted even give the SRD description of how flanking is determined. Essentially, if you are in the mob's Line of Sight, you aren't flanking it. Facing and LoS are rather intricately tied together, obviously you are missing that. Simple english...where the mob faces is where it's front is, where the mob isn't facing is where it's flank is. 2 rogues standing 180 degrees apart on a mob's central axis can get constant sneak attacks btw, as well as making the poor mob dizzy as all hells in the process. First one sneak attacks from the rear, mob spins around, 2nd one hits with sneaks, mob spins around again, 1st gets sneaks..repeat until mob is either vomitting freely or dead, whichever occurs first. Both can NOT sneak attack at the same time as the mob will be facing one or the other after getting hit. If both line up on the side flanks and there's an intimi-tank keeping aggro, they can both sneak attack at the same time repeatedly, done both situations in DDO myself, it's fun. Aggro and consequently LoS is the factor, where ever that mob looks, sneaks aren't happening. Facing = LoS.

And I'm sorry, but after watching rogue builds in GH constantly lead the kill counts by 20 or more kills if not double the next highest, you can't convince me they aren't dps machines when played properly. Key words..played properly, as any idiot can screw up a perfectly good build by not playing it properly. Wizards who try to melee, Rogues who try to tank and so on.

Vhlad
06-21-2007, 11:01 AM
Yup. At level 14, a twf rogue is going to have 6 attacks per round. Those rounds go quick. Most enemies at higher levels take multiple hits - often close to ten - to bring down. So yeah, 2 or 3 enemies is nothing.

Oh and I know the numbers will be a bit different, but I base my views on experience with a finesse rogue. Maybe a few points less damage, but with a 30 Dex, sneak attack accuracy, and good weapons, I rarely miss even on the hardest to hit stuff in the game.

It's going to take more than 25.2 then. The comparison was for a THF SoS 30 str rogue with all that stuff I listed. Not for twf. For twf the gap is further. And at 128.6 avg damage per hit, it does NOT take 10. Sigh.

Vhlad
06-21-2007, 11:09 AM
Vlahd, maybe you should re-read those passages you quoted...

The passages you quoted even give the SRD description of how flanking is determined. Essentially, if you are in the mob's Line of Sight, you aren't flanking it. Facing and LoS are rather intricately tied together, obviously you are missing that. Simple english...where the mob faces is where it's front is, where the mob isn't facing is where it's flank is. 2 rogues standing 180 degrees apart on a mob's central axis can get constant sneak attacks btw, as well as making the poor mob dizzy as all hells in the process. First one sneak attacks from the rear, mob spins around, 2nd one hits with sneaks, mob spins around again, 1st gets sneaks..repeat until mob is either vomitting freely or dead, whichever occurs first. Both can NOT sneak attack at the same time as the mob will be facing one or the other after getting hit. If both line up on the side flanks and there's an intimi-tank keeping aggro, they can both sneak attack at the same time repeatedly, done both situations in DDO myself, it's fun. Aggro and consequently LoS is the factor, where ever that mob looks, sneaks aren't happening. Facing = LoS.

And I'm sorry, but after watching rogue builds in GH constantly lead the kill counts by 20 or more kills if not double the next highest, you can't convince me they aren't dps machines when played properly. Key words..played properly, as any idiot can screw up a perfectly good build by not playing it properly. Wizards who try to melee, Rogues who try to tank and so on.

OMG I'm done with the forums. That's it. I give up. I'm not even going to say anything. I KNOW ahhh, urhhh, uggg. *explodes*

Re-read the section on flanking for d&d 3.5. If you still think it has to do with facing and line of sight (AS PER PNP 3.5), read it again. If you still think, etc, read it again. If you still.... Have a nice day.

Here it is:


FLANKING
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

DKerrigan
06-21-2007, 11:13 AM
Flanking in DDo works as described in PnP. If two characters are on opposite sides of a mob attacking it, they gain an attack bonus.

Vhlad
06-21-2007, 11:20 AM
Flanking in DDo works as described in PnP. If two characters are on opposite sides of a mob attacking it, they gain an attack bonus.

Not sneak attacks (they strayed from pnp and tied it to aggro in DDO). And unless it was patched, the to-hit bonus from flanking is only if the monster is not facing you. i.e. read uncanny dodge: " ...stuff... monsters attacking you from behind don't receive a flanking bonus".

DKerrigan
06-21-2007, 11:23 AM
Not sneak attacks.

And they probably never will. There are many, many, many, etc. things in DDo that don't work as PnP intends them. Some are the developer's choice, like insane mob stats, some may be limitations of AI, like the aggro mechanic that breaks PnP sneak attack in the limited situations when people actually flank.

EDIT: Game tactics break flank more than anything, i.e. the "fight in the door way" mentality.

KristovK
06-21-2007, 11:25 AM
Have you ever actually played PnP? I only ask because you don't seem to grasp the entire facing/LoS/flanking concept, even though you quoted passages describing it.

And..you don't quite seem to understand what that passage on flanking itself is about..that's for ANY character, not a rogue, to gain a +2 bonus to the attack roll and is slightly different then getting a sneak attack in, which can occur on any mob that doesn't have LoS on the rogue, aggro'd on another player or not.

From the SRD directly -


Sneak Attack: If a rogue can catch an opponent when he is unable to defend himself effectively from her attack, she can strike a vital spot for extra damage.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.
Ranged attacks can count as sneak attacks only if the target is within 30 feet.
With a sap (blackjack) or an unarmed strike, a rogue can make a sneak attack that deals nonlethal damage instead of lethal damage. She cannot use a weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage in a sneak attack, not even with the usual –4 penalty.
A rogue can sneak attack only living creatures with discernible anatomies—undead, constructs, oozes, plants, and incorporeal creatures lack vital areas to attack. Any creature that is immune to critical hits is not vulnerable to sneak attacks. The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment or striking the limbs of a creature whose vitals are beyond reach.

A rogue is considered to be flanking any mob that doesn't have the rogue in LoS, been that way since the old Chainmail and hasn't changed to date in any version of the D&D game system. They've added MORE ways to get sneak attacks in, but that basic still stands. Works like this in DDO as well...

bobbryan2
06-21-2007, 11:30 AM
Hehehe

Let me try to sum up what Sair is saying for people.

DPS rogues are powerful. They're fine. All your anecdotal evidence and experience aside... the numbers don't lie. Unless they're wrong... in which case they're lying... but I digress.

My fighter normally doubles the second place killer. And that's only if the second fighter is really good. There have been plenty of quests where my fighter has 90 kills to the next person's 15. But that doesn't mean fighters out DPS barbarians.

Trying to say that rogues can out DPS a well made and well played barbarian because you've seen a rogue get 20 more kills than a fighter is just silly.

DKerrigan
06-21-2007, 11:41 AM
Hehehe

Let me try to sum up what Sair is saying for people.

DPS rogues are powerful. They're fine. All your anecdotal evidence and experience aside... the numbers don't lie. Unless they're wrong... in which case they're lying... but I digress.

My fighter normally doubles the second place killer. And that's only if the second fighter is really good. There have been plenty of quests where my fighter has 90 kills to the next person's 15. But that doesn't mean fighters out DPS barbarians.

Trying to say that rogues can out DPS a well made and well played barbarian because you've seen a rogue get 20 more kills than a fighter is just silly.

The last hit count is worthless though, everyone knows that.;)

Vhlad
06-21-2007, 11:48 AM
A rogue is considered to be flanking any mob that doesn't have the rogue in LoS, been that way since the old Chainmail and hasn't changed to date in any version of the D&D game system. They've added MORE ways to get sneak attacks in, but that basic still stands. Works like this in DDO as well...

That's it.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

If sneaking up from behind or having the monster turned away denies dex bonus to AC, then the attacking rogue gets a sneak attack. It's not specifically tied to LoS/facing. You can still get sneak attacks if the monster is facing you.
In pnp, this is done via flanking (or by something that denies dex bonus to AC).
In DDO, this is done if someone else has aggro (or by a few spell effects)

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked. <-- doesn't matter which direction it is looking
There's some nice pictures of this in the 3.5 books. Here's a bad one http://www.d20srd.org/images/combatFacing/sneakAttacks.png
Maybe someone has a better one?

KristovK
06-21-2007, 12:21 PM
That's it.
The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target.

If sneaking up from behind or having the monster turned away denies dex bonus to AC, then the attacking rogue gets a sneak attack. It's not specifically tied to LoS/facing. You can still get sneak attacks if the monster is facing you.
In pnp, this is done via flanking (or by something that denies dex bonus to AC).
In DDO, this is done if someone else has aggro (or by a few spell effects)

Please re-read the bolded bit then look at what you wrote right after it. Can you even see what you've said?

In DDO, even if you have aggro, flanking allows sneak attacks for rogues, I've done it plenty with my rogue and I get flanking bonuses with my fighters as well when they have aggro and get behind the mob. Jumping over them, tumbling around them, getting behind them with my toon when I attack while they are aggro'd ON MY TOON, the flanking bonus and sneak attacks go off. Exactly as it does in PnP I might add. Having a mob's attention doesn't negate flanking attacks if you can get ON the flank.

Again, the passage you quote on flanking describes it, draw a line between the target of the mob's attention(where it is LOOKING) and the character trying to get a flank bonus, that character needs to be OUTSIDE the mob's line of sight. In PnP, turning your head doesn't change your facing, your body's alignment determines that, which is why there's front/right front/right flank/rear/left flank/left front, it's built in that you can look left or right, but you still have flanks on each side that are outside of your physical line of sight and periphal vision. That's why the passage has a line drawn through the mob, to determine the LoS and ascertain the flanks, because sometimes a model will not be sitting exactly lined up with the sides of the hex and the other models, thereby making the facings difficult to determine(an oft exploited facet of PnP by sneaky players and sneaky DMs).

And yes, you can still get sneak attacks if a mob is facing you under specific conditions..it's Held, it's been turned to stone or it's blind, in DDO. In PnP you can also add stunned, tripped or paralyzed, but those don't cost you your dex bonus to AC in DDO currently, so they aren't triggering the sneak attack, which works for the players as well as the mobs, think of all the times you've been tripped or stunned and the mobs didn't get sneaks.... I did cover that already, there's a FEW conditions where sneak attacks aren't working but for the majority of them, they work as they do in PnP. Test it yourself, it's easy enough to confirm either way, provided you know how to flank a mob, which I'm wondering about since you seem to think it has nothing to do with facing/LoS and everything to do with aggro...which is funny, since I can get a sneak attack on a non-aggro'd mob provided I'm not using a weapon that deals elemental damage currently due to the bug, provided I'm on one of it's flanks or behind it. BTW..flank doesn't mean what you seem to think...

According to http://www.thefreedictionary.com/

flank(flngk)
n.
1. The section of flesh on the body of a person or an animal between the last rib and the hip; the side.
2. A cut of meat from the flank of an animal.
3. A lateral part or side: the flank of a mountain.
4.
a. The right or left side of a military formation: an attack on both flanks.
b. The right or left side of a bastion.
tr.v. flanked, flank&#183;ing, flanks
1. To protect or guard the flank of.
2. To menace or attack the flank of.
3. To be placed or situated at the flank or side of: Two stone lions flanked the entrance.
4. To put (something) on each side of: flanked the driveway with tall shrubs.

*edit*
OMG..you edited your post and didn't even SEE what you did..again! Kindly look closely at the picture you linked...notice the little arrows for each placing..that's the FACING of each creature! You can't flank something that's looking at you, as clearly shown in that nice pic you linked. I see they don't use hexes, guess it's just me and my friends that still use them, but you get the idea about lining up the models with the squares and other models and finding the facing to determine flanking....or...do you? Noticed you also dropped part of that flanking determination...target of the mob's attention and the other player...rather important part there.

Vhlad
06-21-2007, 12:37 PM
Please re-read the bolded bit then look at what you wrote right after it. Can you even see what you've said?

I emphasized that it has to do with denying a dex bonus to AC (or flanking). If you choose to read it differently, then I don't know what to tell you, other than to have a nice day.


Again, the passage you quote on flanking describes it, draw a line between the target of the mob's attention(where it is LOOKING) and the character trying to get a flank bonus, that character needs to be OUTSIDE the mob's line of sight.

NOO no no no NO no no no NO (maybe if I say it 800 times it will work?). The passage does NOT say anything about the mobs attention.

Draw a line between THE CENTRE OF MASS of two friendly allies. If that line crosses opposite sides of the opponents box, the opponent is flanked.

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 01:07 PM
In DDO, even if you have aggro, flanking allows sneak attacks for rogues, I've done it plenty with my rogue and I get flanking bonuses with my fighters as well when they have aggro and get behind the mob.
No, it simply does not.

Standing behind a monster gives you a +2 attack bonus to hit, but it is not enough to qualify you for sneak attacks. If you have aggro but the monster is facing away from you (such as if he is a caster or archer who is running out of melee range), you still don't get sneaks.

Conversely, if you do not have aggro but are standing on top of the fighter so you're hitting the monster in the front, you do get sneaks.

Talcyndl
06-21-2007, 01:17 PM
Trying to say that rogues can out DPS a well made and well played barbarian because you've seen a rogue get 20 more kills than a fighter is just silly.


Looking back, I never said that. Barbarians are unquestionably the kings of DPS. Rogues are, however, a close second when played well (and not fighting undead).

KristovK
06-21-2007, 02:10 PM
Vhlad, here's the exact passage you quoted..


FLANKING
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by a character or creature friendly to you on the opponent’s opposite border or opposite corner.

When in doubt about whether two friendly characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two friendly characters’ centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent’s space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.

Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.

Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.

Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can’t flank an opponent.

I've bolded the relevent line, which is pretty clear about where the creature's attention is and where the flanker must be in relation to the center of the creature's attention. As I said before, it would seem you don't quite understand the entire facing/los/flank concept and how it works, even though you've quoted the rules on it and even linked a great pic clearly showing it. You are trying to drop the first line of the rule in order to make your misunderstanding of the rule fit, but that's not going to change how it works.

Gimpster, I've gotten flanking bonuses on AB with my fighters while having the aggro of the mob I'm attacking, usually by simply running around it so I'm behind it due to being Hasted or jumping straight over it and hitting it as I come down behind it, my flank bonus are +3/+4 so the odd jump in AB is very noticable(fighter's flank bonus enhancement of +2 plus a +1 backstab weapon with one, +1 enhancement +3 backstab weapon with the other fighter build) and my fighters have Spring Attack, so there's no negative to the AB to mess up the numbers(yes, I know, I lose my 3rd/4th attacks while moving, but I can live with that). Also done this with my rogue and gotten my sneak attacks. And you can get sneaks while not flanking a mob when it's aggro is on someone else, which you shouldn't, but I'm not going to complain about that since I don't get them at times when I should, ie - stunned, tripped, paralyzed and facing me.

Aggro management and physical placement are important things for any rogue who's going to do combat. Bluff is one of a rogue's biggest tools, Diplomacy is a good second(bluff gives sneak attacks, diplo MIGHT, so stagger them for best results). Stay mobile, make sure you get behind mobs, so even if you get aggro(which any rogue with a 4d6 or better sneak WILL do unless there's casters nuking the mob) you can bluff/diplo and get around them again. Tumbling is extremely useful for this, as is jumping straight over the mob, since they can't turn fast enough to keep LoS on you when bluffed/diplo'd(bluffed mobs are STILL aggro'd on you, just distracted for a moment, test it..they'll turn back on you even if you don't attack again unless someone else gets aggro by attacking, found that out the hard way).

All in all, rogues can be a blast to play and it's not usually a problem finding a group at any level. As I said, on Argo, it's not a problem for a rogue to find a party usually, any level for any quest and they are definately in high demand for certain of the GH quests.

Vhlad
06-21-2007, 02:25 PM
Vhlad, here's the exact passage you quoted..
I've bolded the relevent line, which is pretty clear about where the creature's attention is and where the flanker must be in relation to the center of the creature's attention.

You have got to be kidding.

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 02:48 PM
Gimpster, I've gotten flanking bonuses on AB with my fighters while having the aggro of the mob I'm attacking, usually by simply running around it so I'm behind it due to being Hasted
Yes, that's what I just said.

In DDO, you can get flanking bonuses by attacking a monster from behind. But that is not enough to qualify you for sneak attacks. DDO gives you a sneak attack in three situations:
1. Monster is unaware
2. Monster is aggroed on someone else
3. Monster is blind/paralyzed (or otherwise impaired, like Bluff)

As I already explained, simply flanking a monster is not enough to give you sneak attacks in DDO. Most of the time when you flank something it's because someone else has aggro, so you'll get sneak attacks for that reason.


Also done this with my rogue and gotten my sneak attacks.
No, you did not. If you think you did it's because someone else pulled aggro without you noticing, or because the monster got impaired. For example, reducing a monster to 0 hp counts as impairment and gives you a meaningless sneak attack.

Whistleberry
07-03-2007, 08:49 PM
Become a Rogard! (1 Rog/13 Wiz). Max. Int, Max Skills!

If Drow, use a +1 Int tome before Level 4, so you can hit 22 Base Int at Level4 and get more Skill points! Or if you're lucky enough use a +2 Int Tome at Level 1 to get more Skill points per level :)

You can even beat many dodgy Rogues out there in Search, DD, OL and UMD!

Or, if you're a L13 fighter, how about taking one level of Cleric? Would be handy to be able to Raise Dead, cast Blade Barriers, have pets, etc, wouldn't it?

studentx
07-05-2007, 11:08 PM
I thought playing a rogue would be fun, however I have found out that it is not. Groups don't need rogues very much as the only thing that they do is disarm traps and pick locks, caster and cleric cover both those rolls and do much more, plus there is always a way around a trap even if that mean running thru it.

What I think that most people love about the idea of a rogue is that they are sneaky little devils that move with the grace of an assassin and the blend to darkness like a shadow.

IMHO, this feature of rogues was never and has never been used, at least if it has it's very seldom that it is. If you want people to have fun playing a rogue they need to not only be but feel as if they are part of a team that helps people thru the mission they have to do.

I would suggest that rogues have an assassinate ability, I mean cleric's have distruction and slay living, casters have PK and FoD, why not give rogues the ability to, as long as they are in sneak and even sneaking in combat, an assassinate ability, maybe limited uses to keep the rogues from becoming to popular.

As I feel that in PnP the idea of a rogues sneak attack was to do so much damage that whatever they hit would die or be wounded enough to take them out. With the added hp of the mob's in this MMO, sneak attack makes this no longer possiable.

I suggest that rogues be given an ability to make up for it, give the rogues back there sneak attack, the ability to sneak up on something and kill it. Make a die roll to see if you kill it or not, something to give back some of the orginal power that the rogue had.

Also I would suggest ways to cage or insta kill groups of mob's if you have a rogue with you to sneak over to that switch that throws up this or that. I mean don't make it happen in every quest, otherwise you couldn't go any where with out a rogue.

Maybe I can brain storm and come up with so other suggestions as well.

Also I would like to point out I play a ranger rogue, so my current rogue would not benefit from this, but it would make it more of a popular idea with me anyway to roll a pure class rogue.

Others have commented on assassins and PnP, so I'll just add one thing. Uncanny Dodge should not be a clicky, if I spot it Uncanny Dodge should activate the same way spring attack does when you move. Especially at level 10+, this really should be the rogue's reign: they shine at levels 10-15. They can dodge most reflex based spells. Uncanny Dodge as a clicky was a poor implimentation choice. It still is. Now with over powered mobs that can hit you on 2, with a 34 ac its ridiculous.

Good luck on your rogue. Mostly folks love a good rogue but rarely will you get a chance to prove your value on every quest in the game, because bad rogues are squishy and waste the cleric's mana. Therefore most won't take a rogue ....So it goes.

Kaish
07-05-2007, 11:18 PM
Also, what hurt rogue is the nerfs to the search and spot. I understand they had to do something to make characters with only 1 or 2 lvl of rogue beeing too powerful.. but the way they chose was wrong. All they need to do is review that nerf and make trap with a dc base on skill AND on the level of the rogue.

Also, most quest dont need a rogue at all. Cause rogues.. even pure rogues like mine, fail to detect or disarm the trap or because there is no trap at all. Plus, many people just run through the trap and heal up after...

Sneak never worked in DDO. Monsters get agro on you even if they cant see you and you cant hide from them once they have agro on you. If that was to be changed, a rogue with enough hiding skill could hide and save himself. Making him less fragile, not to say a burden to be healed all the time.

Rogues need serious review. Not to nerf them.. cause they are already at a point where they are almost useless already, but by making them fun and useful.

Thank you

Raithe
07-06-2007, 12:18 AM
Some advice for a rogue:

1) I love it when people start quoting DPS numbers and comparing it to the sneak attack of a rogue. It is meaningless. Rogues (and ranger/rogues) with TWF can be doing stat damage at 150% (or better) the rate of a THF attacker, and puncturing (or paralyzing) is all my rogue uses basically anymore. (Except, obviously, against undead and some constructs).

2) The big focus right now for rogues in the game is really about evasion and reflex saves. Velah, Lailat, the Reaver Raid, Crucible, even Madstone are all quests where much less damage is taken with a good reflex save and evasion. I really didn't appreciate my rogue's abilities in that area until I started running VoN 3 with a non-evasion melee character (who, luckily, will have evasion next level). What a freakin pain in the gludius maximus. Rogues with moderate dex and reflexes are just not as useful, even if their spot, search, and disable are off the charts.

3) Acrobatic rogues are also pretty cool. Having a skilled player run a high skill rogue around is just elegant. Jump is a highly underated skill. I didn't take the spell at first on my sorc because I underestimated it's usefulness. I've since swapped a spell out for it.

4) Stealth is still useful. Anyone who claims that it doesn't work and is broken just hasn't figured the mechanics out yet. I embarked on a picture-taking tour of a whole bunch of different quests recently and it amazed me all the places and vistas my rogue could reach without any real interference. If it doesn't have a door making him break sneak, he can go anywhere in the game without the mobs even knowing. Which brings up the advice that spot is not only useful for traps... if you can't see the stealthed mob you are likely to sneak yourself right into him.

Vhlad
07-06-2007, 06:12 AM
Some advice for a rogue:

1) I love it when people start quoting DPS numbers and comparing it to the sneak attack of a rogue. It is meaningless. Rogues (and ranger/rogues) with TWF can be doing stat damage at 150% (or better) the rate of a THF attacker, and puncturing (or paralyzing) is all my rogue uses basically anymore. (Except, obviously, against undead and some constructs).

Meaningless? TWF is not rogue specific. You can give a 44 str raging barb (with critical rage) all the TWF feats and wounding of puncturing.


2) The big focus right now for rogues in the game is really about evasion and reflex saves. Velah, Lailat, the Reaver Raid, Crucible, even Madstone are all quests where much less damage is taken with a good reflex save and evasion. I really didn't appreciate my rogue's abilities in that area until I started running VoN 3 with a non-evasion melee character (who, luckily, will have evasion next level). What a freakin pain in the gludius maximus. Rogues with moderate dex and reflexes are just not as useful, even if their spot, search, and disable are off the charts.

Evasion + high reflex = good. But that's no different than pnp. Although the traps in the pnp campaigns I've played in (and in other games like NWN) are 1 time things (i.e. 1 roll only). They are not continuously spinning blades or shooting flames that require multiple reflex saves a second.


3) Acrobatic rogues are also pretty cool. Having a skilled player run a high skill rogue around is just elegant. Jump is a highly underated skill. I didn't take the spell at first on my sorc because I underestimated it's usefulness. I've since swapped a spell out for it.

There are fewer useful skills in this game than there are in pnp. This is somewhat a nerf to rogues, although it allows rogues to fully function with 8 int. For example, say you have base 14 int, +2 int tome, and are human (12 skill points/level). Can you find 12 good skills to take in DDO?
An 8 int rogue that is non human can take:
search, disable, open lock, balance, jump, UMD, bluff. (and 1 pt in tumble by sacrificing balance, jump, or bluff). Keep in mind with a +10 jump clicky, +15 jump item, +4 greater hero, +2 good luck, and say a +5 jump modifier (via 20 str, which is easy with a +6 str item, +1-5 tome, and possible enhancements), a rogue can stop pumping jump at rank 4, because they can hit the maximum of 40 (high jump (i.e. above 20) is only a situational requirement in this game, so clicky boosted or item swapped jump is fine).


4) Stealth is still useful. Anyone who claims that it doesn't work and is broken just hasn't figured the mechanics out yet. I embarked on a picture-taking tour of a whole bunch of different quests recently and it amazed me all the places and vistas my rogue could reach without any real interference. If it doesn't have a door making him break sneak, he can go anywhere in the game without the mobs even knowing. Which brings up the advice that spot is not only useful for traps... if you can't see the stealthed mob you are likely to sneak yourself right into him.

You don't need spot. You can just memorize where all the traps and boxes are and search at the right place (or trigger a trap and then search). And spotting mobs is done via true seeing, which is available on goggles or scrolls (via UMD).

As another point, the pace of this game is too fast for the current implementation of rogue search/disable mechanics. The danger/time ratio is simply not worth waiting for a rogue to disable traps. Traps either need to be more deadly, or the search/disable mechanic/animation/etc needs to be speeded up. Otherwise people will just continue to run through traps. Although people may run through them anyway, because using your superior timing/twitch skills to run through a gauntlet of traps and take no damage is fun.

FluffyDucky
07-06-2007, 09:31 AM
Reading through this thread has reminded me why I no longer like playing my rogue. The majority of comments are discussing rogues fighting abilities. IF I WANTED TO PLAY A FIGHTER I WOULD HAVE ROLLED A FIGHTER. I rolled a rogue because I wanted to do roguish things, sneak, disable traps, etc. All my comments on page one of this thread still apply. (And note, not a single one was about a rogues fighting abilities.) I don't care about the fighting abilities of rogues I just want their roguish abilities to be useful. Please don't fix rogues by making them better fighters. We already have fighters, paladins, barbarians, rangers we don't need another fighter class.

Raithe
07-06-2007, 04:22 PM
You don't need spot. You can just memorize where all the traps and boxes are and search at the right place (or trigger a trap and then search). And spotting mobs is done via true seeing, which is available on goggles or scrolls (via UMD).


Just so you don't confuse anyone, true seeing does not automatically make stealthed creatures visible. True seeing allows you to see through invisibility, blur, and displacement, and allows you to detect secret doors. Creatures who are stealthed "naturally," however, are not affected by the spell. The spell doesn't even give you a bonus to your spot skill.

One of my characters has the Sandstorm Glasses and a fairly low to moderate spot skill. He sometimes gets surprised by stealthed mobs.

Newtons_Apple
07-06-2007, 05:07 PM
Well, I agree that assassinate could be an interesting feature for the rogue, but something I think might be a bit more realistic and come sooner is summed up in two words....trap randomization.

If every quest had their traps randomization, except for a few that are integral to the quest's completion or theme, then I think rogues would truly find a bit more work. My elven rogue has been around since two weeks after launch and I'd be rich if I had a dollar everytime someone denied my request to join a group.

I hope The Rocking Dead and others are reading this post, because I think this could be a welcome change for us rogues, plus it would give each dungeon a little something different each time you repeated it, which, of course, we all know is necessary in DDO.

Unfortunately a Dev has already stated that traps cannot be fully randomized (sorry don't have the link). True, they can create more places for static traps that randomly activate, but this is not the random i believe you are looking for.

As to why no randomness? Well, what if the trap was in the ceiling- no need to even worry about it. Or what if the box landed on the other side of a wall you can't get to?

EightyFour
07-06-2007, 05:26 PM
Others have commented on assassins and PnP, so I'll just add one thing. Uncanny Dodge should not be a clicky, if I spot it Uncanny Dodge should activate the same way spring attack does when you move. Especially at level 10+, this really should be the rogue's reign: they shine at levels 10-15. They can dodge most reflex based spells. Uncanny Dodge as a clicky was a poor implimentation choice. It still is. Now with over powered mobs that can hit you on 2, with a 34 ac its ridiculous.

Good luck on your rogue. Mostly folks love a good rogue but rarely will you get a chance to prove your value on every quest in the game, because bad rogues are squishy and waste the cleric's mana. Therefore most won't take a rogue ....So it goes.

I agree that Uncanny Dodge should not be a clicky.

Aesop
07-06-2007, 05:57 PM
Reading through this thread has reminded me why I no longer like playing my rogue. The majority of comments are discussing rogues fighting abilities. IF I WANTED TO PLAY A FIGHTER I WOULD HAVE ROLLED A FIGHTER. I rolled a rogue because I wanted to do roguish things, sneak, disable traps, etc. All my comments on page one of this thread still apply. (And note, not a single one was about a rogues fighting abilities.) I don't care about the fighting abilities of rogues I just want their roguish abilities to be useful. Please don't fix rogues by making them better fighters. We already have fighters, paladins, barbarians, rangers we don't need another fighter class.

ummm... rogue is a fighting class.

A rogue who can't fight isn't using all her abilities. Well let me restate this. A rogue can fight... but more importantly a rogue can find that part of a creature that makes it say ow a lot. So while they may not be as proficient in Contemplation Through Pugilation they are very proficient in Stab Sharp Pointy Things Into Soft Squishy Things That Scream And Bleed

A Rogue can do just about everything in this game. They can Fight, they disable, they cast, they heal, they can sneak (if a party allows them to)


I'm sorry 84 I didn't read your whole post and this thread is too long to keep my attention but I think really it may come down to you figuring out what you want the character to do and making it do that.... This may mean Multi Classing


If you'd like I can give you a run down of my build of my main rogue... to the best of my recollection, but really I think you might just want to make the character your own. I'll check back and write it up if you want


Aesop