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Brieana
06-18-2007, 08:44 PM
I have a character well several actually that are rangers. I have the feat "Many Shot" I really like this ability. Many shot has a 20 second timer with a 2 minute cool down. My question is...

Would it be possible for the Devs to consider changing the cool down to 1 minute? I have no problem with only having many shot for 20 seconds but the fast pace of many of the higher end quests or exceedingly large combats a 2 minute cool down seems an excessive amount of time.

With enhancement clickies being able to spammed nearly as fast as you finish using them I am not quite sure why there is such a huge difference.

Now before those reading this come on to state about the enhancements clickies only being 5 times per rest, with the prevelance of shrines with in quests you can get many more uses out of these clickies then many shot.

For example in the Reaver Pre-raid there are I believe 9 rest shrines. This would equal 45 uses of an enhancement clickie. To use the same amount of uses of many shot that quest would have to last an hour and a half. This seems a bit skewed and this is only one quest I am referencing.

Any thoughts or considerations on the subject would be welcome.

Thank you
Brieana

Muravi
06-19-2007, 06:03 AM
I still think they shoulf just make it a stance. And no, I don't think that would overpower rangers. I think it would compensate for the broken ranged mechanics.

jaitee
06-19-2007, 06:42 AM
just like a pallys ability which is 20 mins cool down, but then again the pallys would be over powered with this ability down to 1 mins as well :p

Geonis
06-19-2007, 07:19 AM
This is somewhat similar to Pally's Smite Evil. Originally you could just throw a smite into the middle of a combo. They changed it to where you have to stop then hit the smite button. So, a few 4-6 times per rest was to powerful. I think changing this back and dropping Manyshot to 1min timer would go a long way to evening things out a bit amongst the "fighters".

Fura
06-19-2007, 07:28 AM
I think this should be a feat "improved manyshot" and you should need a couple of range feats to be able to get it .

negative
06-19-2007, 08:35 AM
This is somewhat similar to Pally's Smite Evil. Originally you could just throw a smite into the middle of a combo. They changed it to where you have to stop then hit the smite button. So, a few 4-6 times per rest was to powerful. I think changing this back and dropping Manyshot to 1min timer would go a long way to evening things out a bit amongst the "fighters".

Well, this is a little off-topic, but what you're saying about Smite Evil isn't correct. Smite Evil used to *not* chain into your attack sequence, but recieved your best BAB bonus. Now, you *can* chain it into your attack sequence.

The major change was that the cooldown timer was change from 1 second to 6. And we can still get 4-6 smites per rest, if not more.

I am all for more love for ranged combat, and manyshot as well. I'm not sure if that means the cooldown should be reduced, or it should be changed to a stance as per PnP, but, something should be done.

Mad_Bombardier
06-19-2007, 10:42 AM
I came to a realization about Manyshot when considering DDO attacks/BAB versus D&D attacks/BAB.

As we all know, in D&D:
BAB +0-5 = 1 attack
BAB +6-10 = 2 attacks
BAB +11-15 = 3 attacks
BAB +16-20 = 4 attacks

And in DDO:
BAB +0 = 1 attack
BAB +1-4 = 2 attacks
BAB +5-9 = 3 attacks
BAB +10-14* = 4 attacks
*unknown implementation of BAB +15-20

But for Manyshot, DDO uses the attacks per BAB scale from D&D. We didn't get our 3rd arrow until BAB+11 and won't get our 4th arrow until BAB+16. At least archery in D&D has a chance to be equal to melee. We are again at the crossroads where further increases to melee will ensure that archery will never catch up and all other forms of attack will become obsolete.

Sojourner
06-19-2007, 11:17 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing an enhancement chain that lets you shorten the cooldown timers on some of your feats, or extend the duration of them.

New Enhancement: Improved Manyshot Cooldown
IM I = Reduce cooldown by 10% (1min, 48sec)
IM II = Reduce cooldown by 30% (1min, 24sec)
IM III = Reduce cooldown by 50% (1min, 0sec)
IM IV = Reduce cooldown by 70% (0min, 36sec)

You could also do something like this:

New Enhancement: Improved Manyshot Duration
IM I = Increase duration by 25% (25sec)
IM II = Increase duration by 50% (30sec)
IM III = Increase duration by 75% (40sec)
IM IV = Increase duration by 100% (45sec)

Want to be a manyshot master -- 20 APs, but you'd have a duration of 45sec, followed by a cooldown of 36 sec before you get another 45.

I'm sure the numbers are all kinds of odd and you'd have to play around to get a good balance.

GeneralDiomedes
06-19-2007, 12:44 PM
Manyshot enhancements are what is needed .. Rangers get so few combat related enhancements as it is. One almost is led to believe that the development team at DDO doesn't think Rangers are meant to fight!

Fura
06-19-2007, 01:57 PM
I wouldn't mind seeing an enhancement chain that lets you shorten the cooldown timers on some of your feats, or extend the duration of them.

New Enhancement: Improved Manyshot Cooldown
IM I = Reduce cooldown by 10% (1min, 48sec)
IM II = Reduce cooldown by 30% (1min, 24sec)
IM III = Reduce cooldown by 50% (1min, 0sec)
IM IV = Reduce cooldown by 70% (0min, 36sec)

You could also do something like this:

New Enhancement: Improved Manyshot Duration
IM I = Increase duration by 25% (25sec)
IM II = Increase duration by 50% (30sec)
IM III = Increase duration by 75% (40sec)
IM IV = Increase duration by 100% (45sec)

Want to be a manyshot master -- 20 APs, but you'd have a duration of 45sec, followed by a cooldown of 36 sec before you get another 45.

I'm sure the numbers are all kinds of odd and you'd have to play around to get a good balance.

Agree on that 8)

EinarMal
06-19-2007, 02:15 PM
I think the devs have it in their heads that it is "cheating" to kill things in any way that does not invovle pummeling them to death without some penalty involved.

For casters the "penalty" is high mob saves, long spell cool downs, and immunities. I would bet money the amount of mobs with "deathblock" goes up and up to the point of FOD and other death spells being useless.

For ranged your stuck with slow firing rate, which manyshot helps alleviate for a brief time at which point you go back to plink,plink... I see no desire on their parts to make the game more like PnP where spells, archers, and melee characters can all be effective.

It isn't fair, but how many manyshot threads is it going to take to realize they just don't care about improving ranged combat?

Cassiline
06-20-2007, 06:40 AM
I have a character well several actually that are rangers. I have the feat "Many Shot" I really like this ability. Many shot has a 20 second timer with a 2 minute cool down. My question is...

Would it be possible for the Devs to consider changing the cool down to 1 minute? I have no problem with only having many shot for 20 seconds but the fast pace of many of the higher end quests or exceedingly large combats a 2 minute cool down seems an excessive amount of time.


First off... I love rangers, I think they're the most fun of any class. That said, I think manyshot is fine. 2 minutes gives the potential to do around 60% of melee damage from a range, with no chance of them firing back. Throw in the fact that it's burst DPS, and so more useful, and it's already insanely good. Now... 60%... lets toss precise shot in there shall we? line up 2 guys and you're at 120%, throw in a third for 180%, and of course the potential damage is near infinite. If we had a 1 minute cooldown we'd be doing the same damage or more than melee, and from a range. THAT would be overpowered.

Brieana
06-20-2007, 07:44 AM
First off... I love rangers, I think they're the most fun of any class. That said, I think manyshot is fine. 2 minutes gives the potential to do around 60% of melee damage from a range, with no chance of them firing back. Throw in the fact that it's burst DPS, and so more useful, and it's already insanely good. Now... 60%... lets toss precise shot in there shall we? line up 2 guys and you're at 120%, throw in a third for 180%, and of course the potential damage is near infinite. If we had a 1 minute cooldown we'd be doing the same damage or more than melee, and from a range. THAT would be overpowered.

I am unsure where you are coming from with the 2 minutes equals 60% melee damage, when you only have 20 seconds of many shot and nearly a 2 minute cool down.

Why is it that Rangers should not be doing as much ranged damage as the fighters do in melee? We are usually too squishy to go in hand to hand and survive, especially in the higher level quests.

I would hope the Devs are not leaning towards DDO being a fighter only game for if they make the other characters less effective won't they eventially have everyone wanting to be fighters and thus there won't be many of the other type characters.

If the Devs are looking at this thread would you please consider re-evaluating many shot to make it better.

Thank you
Bri

Shrazkil
06-20-2007, 09:29 AM
I am unsure where you are coming from with the 2 minutes equals 60% melee damage, when you only have 20 seconds of many shot and nearly a 2 minute cool down.

Why is it that Rangers should not be doing as much ranged damage as the fighters do in melee? We are usually too squishy to go in hand to hand and survive, especially in the higher level quests.

I would hope the Devs are not leaning towards DDO being a fighter only game for if they make the other characters less effective won't they eventially have everyone wanting to be fighters and thus there won't be many of the other type characters.

If the Devs are looking at this thread would you please consider re-evaluating many shot to make it better.

Thank you
Bri

Well saying rangers are too squishy to go into melee at end content is just furthering negative stereotypes. YOU didnt make your ranger able to melee at high levels, thats not true for all.

More to point however, I think a fix to this would be to use the enhancement system, rangers get a typically poor choice of enhancements i feel. Why not make something like this:

Rangers extended manyshot 1:Increase duration of manyshot feat by 5 seconds. AP1

Rangers extended manyshot 2:Increase duration of manyshot feat by additional 5 seconds. AP2

Rangers extended manyshot 3:Increase duration of manyshot feat by additional 5 seconds. AP3

Rangers extended manyshot 4:Increase duration or manyshot feat by additional 5 seconds: AP4

Or could easily see making this a 2/4/6 AP progression feat.

Mercules
06-20-2007, 09:55 AM
Well saying rangers are too squishy to go into melee at end content is just furthering negative stereotypes. YOU didnt make your ranger able to melee at high levels, thats not true for all.

More to point however, I think a fix to this would be to use the enhancement system, rangers get a typically poor choice of enhancements i feel. Why not make something like this:

Rangers extended manyshot 1:Increase duration of manyshot feat by 5 seconds. AP1

Rangers extended manyshot 2:Increase duration of manyshot feat by additional 5 seconds. AP2

Rangers extended manyshot 3:Increase duration of manyshot feat by additional 5 seconds. AP3

Rangers extended manyshot 4:Increase duration or manyshot feat by additional 5 seconds: AP4

Or could easily see making this a 2/4/6 AP progression feat.

While that is somewhat interesting, not everyone makes their ranged combat person a Ranger and not all Rangers use bows. Manyshot is a feat that Rangers get for free, but it is not a class feature like Sneak Attack, Rage, Smite Evil, Turn Undead so I don't believe it should get special treatment for one class.

The easiest solution is to make Many Shot a stance. Ranged combat already does less damage per second than melee combat by a significant amount. If you are concerned about Improved Precise Shot and this stacked together make them BOTH stances and someone with both can decide to do a bunch of damage to ONE target or less damage to all targets in a line.

Cassiline
06-20-2007, 10:02 AM
I am unsure where you are coming from with the 2 minutes equals 60% melee damage, when you only have 20 seconds of many shot and nearly a 2 minute cool down.


The ranger forums have calculations on it. Basically it's because you have 3 arrows for 20 seconds, and 1 for 100, it comes out to roughly 66% of melee attack rate.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=108628

firing without manyshot gives 50% attack rate, manyshot boosts that to 66% if you use it every opportunity.

EDIT: oh and don't forget improved precise shot which, as I said, boosts it WAAY over melee if you have multiple enemies.

Shrazkil
06-21-2007, 12:43 PM
While that is somewhat interesting, not everyone makes their ranged combat person a Ranger and not all Rangers use bows. Manyshot is a feat that Rangers get for free, but it is not a class feature like Sneak Attack, Rage, Smite Evil, Turn Undead so I don't believe it should get special treatment for one class.

The easiest solution is to make Many Shot a stance. Ranged combat already does less damage per second than melee combat by a significant amount. If you are concerned about Improved Precise Shot and this stacked together make them BOTH stances and someone with both can decide to do a bunch of damage to ONE target or less damage to all targets in a line.

Yes but as an enhancement this would benefit the rangers that do use ranged, and does not have to work across the board, everyone gets item damage, yet fighters get enhancements to reduce it, anyone can get power attack, yet barbs get an enhancement to effect it.

Ringlord
06-21-2007, 01:07 PM
Well remember the big draw back to Improved Precise shot is that a Ranger becomes the instant aggro magnet when using this so if they can't take out the mobs or seriously reduce their numbers before the close to melee they will be swarmed under. Also don't forget we are encountering more and more ranged enemies and generally their to hit and damage are higher than player Rangers and we give up more AC to use a ranged weapon ( not counting throwing weapons where you can still use a shield in your off hand ) and mobs do not.

Solik
06-21-2007, 02:04 PM
No reason not to let Fighters who take the Manyshot feat have enhancements for it, though. Archery fighter builds should be as viable in DDO as they are in PNP. Fighter builds get better focus with the bow due to being able to take the feats earlier than the class feature grants them (and having more room for other bow feats), but they have to do without ranger spells that synergize well with it (longstrider) or, in DDO, also being good close-range with free TWF.

GeneralDiomedes
06-21-2007, 08:46 PM
Bladestorm/Arrowstorm (or whatever they are called) would help too. Even LOTRO rangers get a version of arrow storm :(

Gimpster
06-21-2007, 08:55 PM
But for Manyshot, DDO uses the attacks per BAB scale from D&D. We didn't get our 3rd arrow until BAB+11 and won't get our 4th arrow until BAB+16.
Note also that the TWF feat chain advances at a rate tied to the slower BAB from PnP (and that this is also something effecting rangers).

Mad_Bombardier
06-22-2007, 11:56 AM
Note also that the TWF feat chain advances at a rate tied to the slower BAB from PnP (and that this is also something affecting rangers).Gimpster, you've noted this before and, honestly, I'm okay with it. It doesn't really affect TWF in DDO because we get our extra attacks sooner. Rangers start at 2 attacks, TWF = 3 attacks. It ensures that our double hits are at the highest progressive to-hit. In D&D that's first, in DDO that's last.

Now, if they got rid of progressive to-hit bonuses, TWF would lose the advantage and doubling the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd attacks instead of 2/3/4th would be nice. But, not altogether necessary because we still get 7 attacks per animation. Now, getting those 7 attacks in the same time as single weapon/2HF 4 attacks, that'd be brilliant!

Zenako
06-22-2007, 02:15 PM
I will still claim that the difference in dps between melee and ranged is not as big as it is often portrayed.

Take this example:

Encounter starts at some range of distance (since VERY few encounters begin at IMMEDIATE melee range). In some instances like SC or Gwylans or almost any outdoor location almost all conflicts begin at range.

Time stamp = 0
Ranged attacks commence doing damage to mobs

time stamp =1
Mobs move closer
ranged attacks continue

time stamp = 2
Mobs move closer
Ranged attacks continue

time stamp =3
Mobs close to melee range
Melee Commences and Ranged can continue

time stamp = 4 - 9
mobs fight and die in mixed mode
Time Stamp = 10 and done.

Over the course of the encounter, what is the total damage dealt to the enemy? During those initial phases (in which any high level ranger will have many shot on), only ranged attacks are in effect.

Possible numbers: 20 damage/arrow. (60/volley) Lets assume we auto hit at this point for simplicity and ignore crits. Melee does 40/hit. On a simple glance melee has double the damage per attack 40 vs 20.

Over the time of the encounter we have lets say 10 "attacks" happening.

For some encounters that would leave Manyshot "ON" for the entire battle. We can give melee a higher attack rate ( 4 vs 3 in a given time) as mentioned elsewhere in this thread. So over 10 time stamps / rounds lets say we assume the melees are able to completely use EVERY Attack chance they get, ie, they never lose an attack by having to run to another mob or swing in the wornd direction since the mob moved behind them.

In this situation we have 7 rounds of 4 swings of melee doing 40/swing or 1120 points (over the 10 rounds of the encounter) for DPR of 112

For the Ranged Attacker, many of the same assumption here: 10 rounds of attacks at 3 attacks for 20 /attack, however the first 3 1/3 rounds are Manyshotted for a total of 50 total "attacks" or 1000 points or a DPR or 100.

HOWEVER, also keep in mind special effects as well. The ranged attacker will get more opportunites to get those effects off on the target, that ranged attacks have typically a higher critical multiplier X3 and can combine multiple elemental effects between bows and enchanted arrows as well. Once you add in Improved Precise Shot and then the likely DPR will skyrocket.

Yup the damage per hit from a Buffed Kopesh wielder can be outstanding, but a complete picture requires looking at sustained DPR over time. There is a good reason Paladins do not get to Smite enemies 24/7.

Full circle here, the current Manyshot toggle is generally balanced in play. IF the play style of your party is a zergfest, then you will not get a chance to use it very often (every couple minutes), but if the play style of your group is more tactical, you will more than likely get a chance to use it almost every encounter. It also fits in with the Paradigm of a scout sneaking up and picking out the enemy boss to target for takeout. Select the boss, turn on Many Shot and shread the enemy.

EinarMal
06-22-2007, 02:23 PM
Now, if they got rid of progressive to-hit bonuses, TWF would lose the advantage and doubling the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd attacks instead of 2/3/4th would be nice. But, not altogether necessary because we still get 7 attacks per animation. Now, getting those 7 attacks in the same time as single weapon/2HF 4 attacks, that'd be brilliant!

So how different are the attack times at BAB 14 between the single/2HF animation and the TWF one? Have you ever timed this? I thought they did even this out to be pretty close already?

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 02:24 PM
Gimpster, you've noted this before and, honestly, I'm okay with it. It doesn't really affect TWF in DDO because we get our extra attacks sooner. Rangers start at 2 attacks, TWF = 3 attacks.
Wrong, it absolutely affects TWF. A level 3 ranger getting only +50% attacks more than a level 3 barbarian instead of the correct +100% more is a big difference.

In the original PnP game TWF was already a suboptimal combat style in terms of damage output- there was no need for DDO to weaken it even further.

Gimpster
06-22-2007, 02:28 PM
Encounter starts at some range of distance (since VERY few encounters begin at IMMEDIATE melee range). In some instances like SC or Gwylans or almost any outdoor location almost all conflicts begin at range.

Time stamp = 0
Ranged attacks commence doing damage to mobs

time stamp =1
Mobs move closer
ranged attacks continue
Your example is already wrong by this point. By the time a second volley of ranged attacks has been made, the melee players will have already closed to touch the monsters; their movement rate is fast compared to the rate of firing a bow.

If you're doing a second arrow volley before the monsters are in range, that means you and your group is actually trying to avoid melee combat to allow for more ranged damage. You must be intentionally halting forward movement. And if that's how you're playing it, you may as well just run backwards and kite the mobs continually instead of using any melee at all.

Mad_Bombardier
06-22-2007, 02:39 PM
So how different are the attack times at BAB 14 between the single/2HF animation and the TWF one? Have you ever timed this? I thought they did even this out to be pretty close already?That's the problem. With 3 extra attacks per animation/round GreaterTWF should be almost double (+75%). I have not done new trials at BAB+14 because the attack speed increases appear to come from added attacks per chain (BAB+1, +5, +10). With the 4th attack at BAB+10 and GrTWF @ lvl 11,

SWF/2HF = 19 attacks / 12 seconds.
TWF = 28 attacks / 12 seconds.
Difference ~ +50% for TWF instead of +75%.

Compared to 2HF, TWF sacrifices damage output (1/2 STR dmg with offhand) and more to-hit rolls for increase in rate of attack. DDO uses longer timed animations for TWF, and in so doing negates some of the benefit of TWF.

Zenako
06-22-2007, 02:43 PM
Your example is already wrong by this point. By the time a second volley of ranged attacks has been made, the melee players will have already closed to touch the monsters; their movement rate is fast compared to the rate of firing a bow.

If you're doing a second arrow volley before the monsters are in range, that means you and your group is actually trying to avoid melee combat to allow for more ranged damage. You must be intentionally halting forward movement. And if that's how you're playing it, you may as well just run backwards and kite the mobs continually instead of using any melee at all.

When in small groups, kiting is very effective. I was picturing in my mind as I wrote this example the fight in SC at the large crates. About 5 or 6 giants on the top with a Boss. I have often been onto my 2nd or even 3rd target by the time melees close with combat in that skirmish with my Ranger.

If melees choose to rush headlong into battle to fight undamaged or wounded or cursed foes, I cannot stop them. It does not make it efficient group tactics. Just like those who rush ahead instead of waiting for buffs from a Bard, or those who insist on using their slashign weapon on Razor Cats. Not efficient use of resources. Runnning around figthing 4 one on one battles is not good tactics, gang up on the mobs, flank them, get sneak attack bonuses, etc. Much more effecient.

EinarMal
06-22-2007, 02:47 PM
That's the problem. With 3 extra attacks per animation/round GreaterTWF should be almost double (+75%). I have not done new trials at BAB+14 because the attack speed increases appear to come from added attacks per chain (BAB+1, +5, +10). With the 4th attack at BAB+10 and GrTWF @ lvl 11,

SWF/2HF = 19 attacks / 12 seconds.
TWF = 28 attacks / 12 seconds.
Difference ~ +50% for TWF instead of +75%.

Compared to 2HF, TWF sacrifices damage output (1/2 STR dmg with offhand) and more to-hit rolls for increase in rate of attack. DDO uses longer timed animations for TWF, and in so doing negates some of the benefit of TWF.

That's a bummer it should be something like ~33. That seems almost like a bug why would the animation take longer? Sometimes I really wonder about the people who programmed this game :mad:

Mad_Bombardier
06-22-2007, 03:06 PM
Wrong, it absolutely affects TWF. A level 3 ranger getting only +50% attacks more than a level 3 barbarian instead of the correct +100% more is a big difference.

In the original PnP game TWF was already a suboptimal combat style in terms of damage output- there was no need for DDO to weaken it even further.Ok, I understand now. I asked you for clarification on this before, but did not get it until now. Not compared to its PnP self, but rather compared to SWF and 2HF combat styles. Ah-hah! DDO-implemented TWF is behind on attacks compared to other combat styles from level 2 until level 11. However, at BAB+11 and GrTWF it's caught up to 7 attacks. From that point on, its just the animation chain delay that's hurting TWF.

Unless of course, Turbine adds a 5th attack at BAB+15 and delays the corresponding TWF feat to lvl 16/BAB+16. In which case, we will be behind for a level again.

And yes, I agree that TWF is suboptimal. You have more attack rolls, to-hit penalties, less damage potential from offhand STR modifier and (typically) light weapon base dmg, same loss of shield AC.

EinarMal
06-22-2007, 03:09 PM
Ok, I understand now. I asked you for clarification on this before, but did not get it until now. Not compared to its PnP self, but rather
compared to SWF and 2HF combat styles. Ah-hah! DDO-implemented TWF is behind on attacks compared to other combat styles from level 2 until level 11. However, at BAB+11 and GrTWF it's caught up to 7 attacks. From that point on, its just the animation chain delay that's hurting TWF.

Unless of course, Turbine adds a 5th attack at BAB+15 and delays the corresponding TWF feat to lvl 16/BAB+16. In which case, we will be behind for a level again.

And yes, I agree that TWF is suboptimal. You have more attack rolls, to-hit penalties, less damage potential from offhand STR modifier and (typically) light weapon base dmg, same loss of shield AC.

Well with pure DPS it is sub optimal for sure (even if they did the animations correctly). The only reason beyond RP to do it if you are not a Ranger and get it for free is for "effects" weapons. If you really got all the extra attacks that you should then vorprals, wounders of puncturing, and other uber weapons become very effective compared to One/2HF. With the "missing" attacks it hurts in that aspect as well.

negative
06-22-2007, 04:15 PM
Ok, I understand now. I asked you for clarification on this before, but did not get it until now. Not compared to its PnP self, but rather compared to SWF and 2HF combat styles. Ah-hah! DDO-implemented TWF is behind on attacks compared to other combat styles from level 2 until level 11. However, at BAB+11 and GrTWF it's caught up to 7 attacks. From that point on, its just the animation chain delay that's hurting TWF.

Unless of course, Turbine adds a 5th attack at BAB+15 and delays the corresponding TWF feat to lvl 16/BAB+16. In which case, we will be behind for a level again.

And yes, I agree that TWF is suboptimal. You have more attack rolls, to-hit penalties, less damage potential from offhand STR modifier and (typically) light weapon base dmg, same loss of shield AC.

Maybe I'm missing something here Mad_B, but I don't follow. Ignore me if this has been covered. But I see it as this:

PnP - Full BAB Classes
S&B/THF @ BAB+14
+14/+9/+4 (3 Attacks)
TWF @ BAB+14 W/ Full Feat Tree
+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4 (6 Attacks)

Which gives a 2x attacks.

DDO - Full BAB Classes
S&B/THF @ BAB+14
+14/+14/+19/+24 (4 Attacks)
TWF @ BAB+14 W/ Full Feat Tree
+14/+14/+14/+19/+19/+24/+24 (7 Attacks)

Which gives only 1.75x attacks vs PnP's 2x.

Unless I'm mistaken, this is what Gimpster is complaining about regarding TWF, as well as Manyshot following a similar logic path. The difference in attack speed / animation just compounds the problem and makes it worse.

Mad_Bombardier
06-22-2007, 04:27 PM
Maybe I'm missing something here Mad_B, but I don't follow. Ignore me if this has been covered. But I see it as this:

Which gives only 1.75x attacks vs PnP's 2x.

Unless I'm mistaken, this is what Gimpster is complaining about regarding TWF, as well as Manyshot following a similar logic path. The difference in attack speed / animation just compounds the problem and makes it worse.PnP TWF caps at 7 attacks per round (non-Epic and 8 attacks per round epic), DDO TWF (currently) caps at 7 attacks per chain. DDO just gets it sooner. That is equitable. What's not equitable is the advancement.

PnP TWF @ lvl 6 = 4 attacks and SWF = 2 attacks. It's very simple, but because of differing advancements, DDO TWF @ lvl 2-4 = 2(+1) attacks and SWF = 2 attacks. DDO TWF @ lvl 5 = 3(+1) attacks, SWF = 3 attacks. Then, DDO TWF @ lvl 6 = 3(+2) attacks. But, its still not 3(+3) attacks that we should get if it was properly translated/advanced with the new BAB scale. I think that is the complaint. If it's not Gimpster's complaint, then it's mine.

negative
06-22-2007, 04:48 PM
Maybe we should be looking at Level 20 then. Up to level 15, TWF always gets 2x the attacks of S&B/THF (3 vs 6 @ BAB+11-15). From Level 16-20 you see a new pattern, as below at BAB+20.

PnP - BAB+20
S&B/THF
+20/+15/+10/+5 (4 Attacks)
TWF
+20/+20/ +15/+15/+10/+10/+5 (7 Attacks)

1.75x

DDO - BAB+20 (Based on very old Dev posts)
S&B/THF
+20/+20/+25/+30/+35/+40 (6 Attacks)
TWF
+20/+20/+20/+25/+25/+30/+30/+35/[+35]/+40 (9 Attacks [10 if another TWF is added])

1.5x or 1.666x

Still less than PnP. And, from level 21+, you can pick up Perfect TWF in PnP, which adds an extra attack for every single attack you make, so you're back to 2x again!

Now, if they decide not to add in extra attacks at BAB+15/+20, then yes, we are even with PnP. But I doubt this will be the case, and I still content we are falling behind in number of attacks, no matter which way you slice it.

Jaysensen
06-22-2007, 06:28 PM
SC at the large crates.



Ranged is just completely dominant in SC. ^^ By the time you go into SC, melees dont have all of their attacks, and the archer-type got rapid Shot, and possibly Manyshot.

Efficiency is relative, anyway.

Gimpster
06-23-2007, 01:09 PM
Not compared to its PnP self, but rather compared to SWF and 2HF combat styles. Ah-hah! DDO-implemented TWF is behind on attacks compared to other combat styles from level 2 until level 11. However, at BAB+11 and GrTWF it's caught up to 7 attacks.
The way TWF is behind is that the ratio of attack increase you get from spending the same number of feats is lower than in PnP.

In one "full attack", a TWF/THF ranger gets
Level 1: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 3/2 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 5: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 4/3 = 1.3x, Net ratio 0.66
Level 6: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 5/3 = 1.66x, Net ratio 0.83
Level 10: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 6/4 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 11: PnP 6/3 = 2x, DDO 7/4 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.875

The net ratio shows how much less benefit the TWF feat is giving than it should according to the PnP rules. Once you reach level 11 it is closer to 100% power than it had been before, but it never completely reaches that point.

Even if we pretend a TWF could complete a full attack as quickly as a THF, you'd still be behind from 12% to 33% of what you should have, depending on level. And of course, knowing that it takes TWF longer to get 7 attacks than it takes THF to get 4 makes the result really worse than that.

negative
06-23-2007, 01:16 PM
What Mad_B's saying, is that in DDO, we have 7/4 just like you posted. And in PnP, from levels to 15-20, you also have 7/4. So in that respec, we have the right ratio, but at the wrong level. What he's not factoring in, is that we will be getting a 5th attack at level 15, and then we are behind again.

I think the easiest solution would be to double up the first attack in DDO. Then the numbers would be a lot closer.

EinarMal
06-23-2007, 01:47 PM
The way TWF is behind is that the ratio of attack increase you get from spending the same number of feats is lower than in PnP.

In one "full attack", a TWF/THF ranger gets
Level 1: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 3/2 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 5: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 4/3 = 1.3x, Net ratio 0.66
Level 6: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 5/3 = 1.66x, Net ratio 0.83
Level 10: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 6/4 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 11: PnP 6/3 = 2x, DDO 7/4 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.875

The net ratio shows how much less benefit the TWF feat is giving than it should according to the PnP rules. Once you reach level 11 it is closer to 100% power than it had been before, but it never completely reaches that point.

Even if we pretend a TWF could complete a full attack as quickly as a THF, you'd still be behind from 12% to 33% of what you should have, depending on level. And of course, knowing that it takes TWF longer to get 7 attacks than it takes THF to get 4 makes the result really worse than that.

This should really be posted as a seperate thread in the dev discusstion forum as a game issue. Especially the animation time, not only do we lose attacks in theory from PnP, but in practice you don't even really get all those extra attacks at all in the proper amount of time. This is really borked.... and players should at least be made aware of it so the shy away from TWF.

Gimpster
06-23-2007, 02:13 PM
What Mad_B's saying, is that in DDO, we have 7/4 just like you posted. And in PnP, from levels to 15-20, you also have 7/4. So in that respec, we have the right ratio, but at the wrong level.
PnP gives THF a 4th attack at level 16, not 15.

It's true that in PnP the ratio of number of attacks drops from 2 to 1.75 at BAB 16... but that doesn't matter in PnP. The BAB 16 ability for a THF fighter to have a 4th attack comes at a -15 to hit, which means against a serious enemy it is nearly a waste of time to even roll the d20. A TWF fighter is losing little by not getting an extra attack, and if there were a feat to get one more TWF use, few characters would tend to take it.

(Note that as the game expands into epic levels 20+, attack bonuses keep going up, and faster than monster AC, so there is once more incentive to spend a feat for additional TWF attacks)

Presumptively, if DDO adds another attack at BAB 15 or 16, it will be at a +15 bonus, or at least a +10. Thus if TWF doesn't get a matching increase to their attacks they will be missing out on something big, which is very different from how the 4th swings in a PnP attack chain are nearly harmless.

jaitee
06-23-2007, 04:46 PM
well, i have been lvling a ranger, atm lvl 6, and at 1st i disagreed many shot was too strong, but after getting many shot, it seems the only way a ranger would be usefull is in many shot..... i dont know for sure, im only lvl 6, but dps is low, TWF means low AC. not talking about gaint hold, but even so TWF doesnt do alot of damage either, i dont know, just my thoughts

Mad_Bombardier
06-23-2007, 06:30 PM
The only thing you missed was:
In one "full attack", a TWF/THF ranger gets
Level 1: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 3/2 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 5: PnP 2/1 = 2x, DDO 4/3 = 1.3x, Net ratio 0.66
Level 6: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 5/3 = 1.66x, Net ratio 0.83
Level 10: PnP 4/2 = 2x, DDO 6/4 = 1.5x, Net ratio 0.75
Level 11: PnP 6/3 = 2x, DDO 7/4 = 1.75x, Net ratio 0.875
Level 16: PnP 7/4 = 1.75x, DDO 7/4 = 1.75x, Net ratio 1.00*

*Assuming DDO does NOT add another attack and TWF feat at levels 15 and 16, respectively. If that is the case, we've acheived the same ratio, albeit 1 level after everyone gets their 4th attack. It does not make up for loss of attacks at lower levels, but does even the playing field at level 11+.