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View Full Version : A suggestion for loot generation change



EightyFour
06-18-2007, 03:12 PM
The +1 loot was a bust for me, but it happens, and I'm used to pulling vendor trash so I understand that I'm just not meant to pull really great items. So once I understand that I'm not going to be the one that gets the great loot I can accept that.

Does it make me feel any better that this is how the loot system is set up. No, I feel there are a lot of things that need to be taken out.

Most people would rather have either +6 str gloves or +15/+13 gloves of escape than a +3 str gloves of +7 gloves of escape and if Turbine dosen't want to take out the str gloves of Escape at least lower the minimum level requirement to the higher ability. If +3 str generates a higher minimum level than the +7 to OL, than use the minimum level req. of normal +3 str gloves, that way people can at least use them on a lowbie, and maybe even not feel so bad about getting a pair.

So what I suggest if the loot system ever overhauled is that the random item generator be changed is to get rid of high level things that only hand out mid level stats.

As with weapons, those are harder, people like having pure good and sometimes backstabbing or tendon slice on the back end of a flaming burst.
So I can't suggest anything with a solution as of yet.

EightyFour
06-18-2007, 11:57 PM
Can I assume that most of the community is in on this one with me as far as the item ability and skills go?

Also maybe someone has an idea on how to fix weapon generated loot?

Lithic
06-19-2007, 01:10 AM
So I gather you mean that if an item has 2 abilities, you want the min lvl to be the higher level of the two abilities, rather than a factor of their combined power? So a +2 cha, +2 resistance cloak would be lvl 5 instead of 9 (or is it 11?). Well that sure would make a ton more twink gear and hard decisions on slots would not need to be made till the highest levels.

Personally I think loot is fine as is though. Sure you get lots of junk, so does everyone else. Ive had more than my fair share of +1 vicious kamas of deception, but it would just ruin the experience if everything was decent.

Vox
06-19-2007, 01:48 AM
Y'know what I want?... I want to just get gold instead of ****.

Or alternatively an option to eliminate certain item properties at character generation.

Yes, this is utterly ridiculous and insane, but I'd like a checklist at char. gen. where I can checkmark a bunch of things that I never want to pull. like Repair Lore, and Sonic Lore, and Spell Penetratione etc. etc. or Efficacy.

Instead of those stupid drops, I get cash instead. It doesn't even have to be vendor value. It could just be a pile of 500 gold, I'd be so much happier opening a chest and seeing 6 piles of 50 to 500 gold as opposed to 3 piles of scrolls, a pile of potions, and my 17th superior repair lore item.

Seriously.. y'know what I like? I like those chests that don't have anything in them except the named items sometimes... except I would like those chests to have some gold in them for the people who don't get the named item.

It sucks to open a chest to nothing, and it sucks to open a chest to a crappy item that you have to go sell or throw away when you realize you forgot to clear out your inventory.

Yeah, I agree it would be bad if every item was decent or better. But only because we get SO MANY items. I think we should get LESS items, and the items we DO get should be GOOD!

DOWN WITH TERRIBLE ITEMS! UP WITH GOLD!

DOWN WITH CLASS BASED LOOT! UP WITH GOOD ITEMS!

Vox

JD2134
06-19-2007, 02:25 AM
I agree Turbine need to do alot more work on the loot table right now. Cause i pull a +1 banishing shortbow of power I min lvl 14 while the same bow without the power is min lvl 12 . Now really how many poeple need power I on their bows. Or what about the slashing and piercin weapon with greater ooze bane on them.

Now on madstone today i looted min lvl 14 googles that where RR drawf that where intell +2 and search +11. Come on turbine my rogue is not going to wear this. I simply put on my +6 intell ring and then wear a +13 or 15 search google. Or even better i would of preffered to have the google be +6 intell or just +13 or 15 search

EightyFour
06-19-2007, 03:01 AM
Y'know what I want?... I want to just get gold instead of ****.

Or alternatively an option to eliminate certain item properties at character generation.

Yes, this is utterly ridiculous and insane, but I'd like a checklist at char. gen. where I can checkmark a bunch of things that I never want to pull. like Repair Lore, and Sonic Lore, and Spell Penetratione etc. etc. or Efficacy.

Instead of those stupid drops, I get cash instead. It doesn't even have to be vendor value. It could just be a pile of 500 gold, I'd be so much happier opening a chest and seeing 6 piles of 50 to 500 gold as opposed to 3 piles of scrolls, a pile of potions, and my 17th superior repair lore item.

Seriously.. y'know what I like? I like those chests that don't have anything in them except the named items sometimes... except I would like those chests to have some gold in them for the people who don't get the named item.

It sucks to open a chest to nothing, and it sucks to open a chest to a crappy item that you have to go sell or throw away when you realize you forgot to clear out your inventory.

Yeah, I agree it would be bad if every item was decent or better. But only because we get SO MANY items. I think we should get LESS items, and the items we DO get should be GOOD!

DOWN WITH TERRIBLE ITEMS! UP WITH GOLD!

DOWN WITH CLASS BASED LOOT! UP WITH GOOD ITEMS!

Vox

I feel you on that, I would rather get gold instead of crazy items, at least it would make me feel like I was getting something that I could use and not leave me with that feeling of time to sort out the trash and figuring that maybe I got a good item that well sell on the auction or just vendor trash it.

EightyFour
06-19-2007, 03:14 AM
So I gather you mean that if an item has 2 abilities, you want the min lvl to be the higher level of the two abilities, rather than a factor of their combined power? So a +2 cha, +2 resistance cloak would be lvl 5 instead of 9 (or is it 11?). Well that sure would make a ton more twink gear and hard decisions on slots would not need to be made till the highest levels.

Personally I think loot is fine as is though. Sure you get lots of junk, so does everyone else. Ive had more than my fair share of +1 vicious kamas of deception, but it would just ruin the experience if everything was decent.

Well I don't totally agree with you, but I also have the feeling that if all the gear was decent there would be less complaining about it, but also at the same time it would make special gear that you find less valuable, but I feel that at least something has to be done to move in this direction because it just happens way to much in my opinion.

By this direction I mean that the loot has to get a bit better so that that I don't look at every chest with disappointment. When I'm doing a quest now a days, if there is an extra chest I don't even want to go near it anymore because I already have the feeling that that whatever I fight is not worth the repair costs to go get it, it's almost a drag to go get "the extra chest" now.

So I know that you seem fine with the chests, but if someone came to you and this was your game, and they told you that the way you built your game they feel that everything they pull from it is trash and they are tired of it, what do you do for them? and what do you say to them?

DrAwkward
06-20-2007, 02:31 PM
Can I assume that most of the community is in on this one with me as far as the item ability and skills go?

Also maybe someone has an idea on how to fix weapon generated loot?

I'm with you on this one, mate.

The underlying problem is that DDO does not follow PnP loot generation rules.

In PnP "+3 dex +5 heal" gloves would not stack the values as a single huge plus. A magic item with dissimilar abilities = cost of highest + twice cost of the rest.

+3 dex gloves = 18000gp
+5 heal = 2500 gp
is worth about 23000gp.

Taking that, I would (were I the "good angel" on Graal's shoulder) say to just put Minimum level requirements on the items based on what range of value they are.

I'd look in the DMG under wealth by level and arbitrarily say "no one piece of loot should be worth more than a third of that" and assign minimum levels to the stuff according to where they fall in those ranges.

Were I the "little devil" on Graal's other shoulder, I would instead add up all the equipped inventory and insist that the sum is no greater than the wealth by level table (prorated by what rank they are).

Basically the character would be "alloted" a certain amount of value they could wear. Bound items would be worth significantly less than usual. Items wouldn't need a "minimum level" because the value of the item takes care of that.

And then I'd snicker, because it sounds good on the surface, until you get rogues in thier birthday suits with +20 search goggles.

Mizyrlou
06-20-2007, 02:56 PM
Now really how many poeple need power I on their bows.



I never quite understood the high level items having power I thwacked on. Considering that by that time most casters already have some form of sp enhancing item that's better, it's pretty much just a waste.

JosephKell
06-20-2007, 06:11 PM
*snip original post*I think what EightyFour is trying to get at is "We want a better way to calculate minimum item level."

I think a better way would be to use Staffs (from pen and paper) as a model. With Staves, the cost of it is calculated as follows:
1. Calculate the cost of each spell on it: 375 gp x level of the spell x caster level of the staff x material cost for the spell x (1/charges used per use).
2. Sort those spells with their costs from highest to lowest.
3. The most expensive spell is left as it is. The 2nd most expensive is reduced in cost by 25%, and every other spell is reduced by 50% for cost.

I have no good idea how to make this for item levels, I think it would probably require someone to go through them and just do it by "feel."

Personally, I would be happy if we could just take magic items to a vendor in game and pay to have a prefix or suffix removed. It would certainly be a lot easier to code a "Pop off Prefix or Suffix" command than to "fix" loot tables. For instance, I have a +1 Acid Heavy Mace of Deception (+3). Why the hell do I want +3 on Bluff checks? I never use Bluff. I would love to remove it from the weapon (thereby reducing the minimum item level AND the cost of repairing it when damaged).

-JK

EightyFour
06-20-2007, 06:31 PM
I think what EightyFour is trying to get at is "We want a better way to calculate minimum item level."

I think a better way would be to use Staffs (from pen and paper) as a model. With Staves, the cost of it is calculated as follows:
1. Calculate the cost of each spell on it: 375 gp x level of the spell x caster level of the staff x material cost for the spell x (1/charges used per use).
2. Sort those spells with their costs from highest to lowest.
3. The most expensive spell is left as it is. The 2nd most expensive is reduced in cost by 25%, and every other spell is reduced by 50% for cost.

I have no good idea how to make this for item levels, I think it would probably require someone to go through them and just do it by "feel."

Personally, I would be happy if we could just take magic items to a vendor in game and pay to have a prefix or suffix removed. It would certainly be a lot easier to code a "Pop off Prefix or Suffix" command than to "fix" loot tables. For instance, I have a +1 Acid Heavy Mace of Deception (+3). Why the hell do I want +3 on Bluff checks? I never use Bluff. I would love to remove it from the weapon (thereby reducing the minimum item level AND the cost of repairing it when damaged).

-JK

Sounds good to me, I would love to be able to pop of half the stuff I have on my gear that is just no use to me but raises the level requirement.

DSL
06-21-2007, 12:40 PM
I think what EightyFour is trying to get at is "We want a better way to calculate minimum item level."

I think a better way would be to use Staffs (from pen and paper) as a model. With Staves, the cost of it is calculated as follows:
1. Calculate the cost of each spell on it: 375 gp x level of the spell x caster level of the staff x material cost for the spell x (1/charges used per use).
2. Sort those spells with their costs from highest to lowest.
3. The most expensive spell is left as it is. The 2nd most expensive is reduced in cost by 25%, and every other spell is reduced by 50% for cost.

I have no good idea how to make this for item levels, I think it would probably require someone to go through them and just do it by "feel."

The problem here is that this model is based on the notion that all the staff's powers are drawing from the same pool of item charges, so a decreasing cost is appropriate. If each power operates independently, then it becomes more valuable (since it takes fewer item slots).


Personally, I would be happy if we could just take magic items to a vendor in game and pay to have a prefix or suffix removed. It would certainly be a lot easier to code a "Pop off Prefix or Suffix" command than to "fix" loot tables. For instance, I have a +1 Acid Heavy Mace of Deception (+3). Why the hell do I want +3 on Bluff checks? I never use Bluff. I would love to remove it from the weapon (thereby reducing the minimum item level AND the cost of repairing it when damaged).

-JK

This is interesting, simply removing a power instead of changing or adding one. In and of iteself not likely to be overpowering (though it would mean that Vicious weapons would become more valuable), but this would no doubt prompt a renewed and reinforced call to allow for more free-form item crafting. Ultimately though this seems like an unlikely and overly elaborate workaround to the problem outlined by the OP.

Mourning_Star
06-21-2007, 01:51 PM
I'm not sure who at Turbine 1) read the rules on item creation and 2) decided to only follow what they thought was a good implementation, but they did a bang up job of making a LOT of trash loot.

DrAwkward already posted the ruling on items with dissimilar abilities. No where does it ever say that the item bonuses stack. Changing the code shouldn't be too difficult and it would make the ludicrous amount of trash loot into a moderate amount of trash loot.

Here's the fix...
1. Determine item value as per rule book (mentioned earlier).
2. Determine minimum level by monetary value.
3. If it has a rr, decrease minimum level by 2.

Coding changes
1. Change function to determine item value
2. Change function or table to determine minimum level by monetary value
3. Re-evaluate methods used to randomly create items with multiple affects

This will result in a huge decrease in value of "trash" loot, but also make it usable at the appropriate level. The previous example of a +3 str +7 ol gloves would be wearable at lvl 7 (maybe 8) not lvl 11 (is that right? I'm guessing). Also, tacking on power I and other weak effects on to a powerful item will slightly increase the resale value, but will not affect the min level.

Elfvyra
06-21-2007, 03:03 PM
Some things/spells really need to be removed from the higher level items. Here's an example I got over the +1 weekend...

Gloves, RR Warforged, ML 13, +6 Strength, 1 use per day of Daze Monster.

For those that don't know, Daze Monster only effects things with 6 HD or less. Something I haven't seen since leaving the Harbor Normal Quests....

If we absolutely have to have mana tacked onto items, make them Wizardry IV+ or add an X to the Power. For example +1 Bow of Power XI or a dagger +2 with Wiz VI on it.

EightyFour
06-21-2007, 06:12 PM
I'm almost think now that if Turbine dose put item creation in, I think they should prob. stay away from PnP rules, as I can see a huge amounts of problems.

I can see if is a lot harder to take an idea created on paper and say, "How close can we get to this?" When that causes problems because the focus is not not making the best system possiable but holding to make a system as close to a paper idea that works great on paper because it is not held back by the large amount of people playing, the limits of computing power, the limits of bandwidth, and the average computer users client.

So if that's the way it's done, than so be it, stick to something written by TSR or WotC. But I think by doing that, it just is going to hold the game back istead of making the play experance better.

Shecky
06-21-2007, 09:10 PM
Y'know, as much as I was ready to take the con position on this topic, I really think there's a bit of sense here. Make items make SENSE. I know, from allllllll those years in D&D, that the tables are random, and I'm very used to getting junk from the tables - selling off in town actually got to be the thing I was most looking forward to, because the items were just less than we needed or generally NOT what we wanted (with a few specific, DM-defined exceptions, of course). But doing things like putting Power I on a 12th-level item is sorta silly, and putting Greater Ooze Bane on a slashing weapon is straight-out goofy.

The problem is that PnP loot could at least be rejected and rerolled by the DM when it didn't make sense; the "virtual DM" of DDO has no such built-in sense. Perhaps limiters could be written into the code, but there's no way the coders and their sources could think of EVERYTHING, and something wildly doofus-ish is bound to slip through.

So, it just doesn't look like there's any way of fixing this short of severely truncating the loot tables, and I'm not at all convinced that this would be a good thing in the slightest. Meh; I can live with what we have. The majority of my stuff goes straight to the vendors/brokers anyway. :)