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View Full Version : Trap in "Cabal for One" on elite



Anathematic
06-18-2007, 12:22 PM
I know this issue has been raised before, and supposedly the difficulty on this trap was lowered in update 4.1, but apparently the Search DC on this trap is still a whopping 61.

After repeated searches of the forums, I've found that in most cases, the only two races that are able to achieve a Search skill this high are Drow and Dwarf, and that is with Skill Focus, a +15 item, and a +3 House D potion.

On my halfling rogue, I am currently able to max out at 51. If I find every "uber" item I can (+15 item, +2 INT tome, +6 INT item, +3 potion), I just might be able to get the skill up to 60.

So my question is, how exactly is this not an issue for all the rogues who aren't Elves or Dwarves? If I specifically built my rogue for this kind of thing, and I'm still unable to do it, what does that mean?

Aspenor
06-18-2007, 12:27 PM
This is just my 2 cp:

It means that people are going to have to accept imperfection and just deal with it.

negative
06-18-2007, 12:48 PM
This is just my 2 cp:

It means that people are going to have to accept imperfection and just deal with it.

But why is imperfection based solely on what race you choose, with no way to compensate (by using extra feats or items, etc)?

Gol
06-18-2007, 01:33 PM
17 ranks
15 item
7 intel mod (16 start, 2 tome, 6 item = 24 int)
3 skill focus feat
2 luck
4 rogue skill enh
5 rogue boost
4 greater hero
2 way of the mechanic
1 find traps scroll via UMD

60 Search without race considerations or raid loot. Best I can do. I can hit 62 with a Human, 62 with a Dwarf, 64 with Elf/Drow.

Halflings and Warforged Rogues definately got the shaft.

drachine
06-18-2007, 01:50 PM
So my question is, how exactly is this not an issue for all the rogues who aren't Elves or Dwarves? If I specifically built my rogue for this kind of thing, and I'm still unable to do it, what does that mean?[/QUOTE]

i'm not sure why rogues expect to find every box in the game.

i don't think DDO ever promised you would be able to find and disarm all traps, just that rogues "tend" to be best at doing so.

with that in mind i would say your expectations are too high or you need to get used to disappointment.

i always thought boxes were kind of lame anyway. why go to the trouble of designing this deadly intricate trap that some professional could just simply turn off?

Gol
06-18-2007, 01:54 PM
i don't think DDO ever promised you would be able to find and disarm all traps, just that rogues "tend" to be best at doing so.

with that in mind i would say your expectations are too high or you need to get used to disappointment.
If the box is there, it was meant to be found and disarmed. Rogues happen to not only "tend" to be the best, but are in fact the only ones capable of doing so.

IMO, your expectations are off. It has nothing to do with disappointment. The OPs point is that Halflings/WF are totally shafted because they have no chance of hitting that box no matter what.

Aspenor
06-18-2007, 01:55 PM
Personally, that trap in Cabal elite is the part in the quest (when I am on my thief) that I laugh maniacally at the rest of my non-improved evasion counterparts. I mock them and tease them and see how many times I can get them to die in the trap trying to loot it :)

If they had ninja skills like me, they wouldn't have that problem :eek:

Wulf_Ratbane
06-18-2007, 01:56 PM
why go to the trouble of designing this deadly intricate trap that some professional could just simply turn off?

For the same reason that when you leave your car in the parking lot, you lock the door with a key, instead of soldering the door shut.

Wulf_Ratbane
06-18-2007, 02:00 PM
Personally, that trap in Cabal elite is the part in the quest (when I am on my thief) that I laugh maniacally at the rest of my non-improved evasion counterparts. I mock them and tease them and see how many times I can get them to die in the trap trying to loot it :)

If they had ninja skills like me, they wouldn't have that problem :eek:

I suppose if you had close to 300 hit points like me, you wouldn't need improved evasion.

Regular evasion works just fine, your leetness.

Aspenor
06-18-2007, 02:04 PM
I suppose if you had close to 300 hit points like me, you wouldn't need improved evasion.

Regular evasion works just fine, your leetness.

May be true nuff :) No need for personal attacks though.

narizue
06-18-2007, 02:08 PM
If the box is there, it was meant to be found and disarmed. Rogues happen to not only "tend" to be the best, but are in fact the only ones capable of doing so.

IMO, your expectations are off. It has nothing to do with disappointment. The OPs point is that Halflings/WF are totally shafted because they have no chance of hitting that box no matter what.

The fact that the level 14 rogues cannot find a trap in a level 15 quest is not a problem IMO. Its actually refreshing. It may seem unfair that halflings and WF are the only races that have NO CHANCE to find the trap whatsoever at the current time, but I am pretty sure that their racial abilities more than compensate for this one trap.

Lets see, a +1AC across the board vs. not being able to find one trap. I will take it.

As to the WF, immunity to enervation, the single most irritating spell in the game IMO is well worth the inability to find that trap.

Yes they are behind the curve on their search. But they have advantages elsewhere.

Such is life.

Elfvyra
06-18-2007, 02:31 PM
17 ranks
15 item
7 intel mod (16 start, 2 tome, 6 item = 24 int)
3 skill focus feat
2 luck
4 rogue skill enh
5 rogue boost
4 greater hero
2 way of the mechanic
1 find traps scroll via UMD

60 Search without race considerations or raid loot. Best I can do. I can hit 62 with a Human, 62 with a Dwarf, 64 with Elf/Drow.

Halflings and Warforged Rogues definately got the shaft.

Then, once you've found it, all you need to do is come up with 68+ DD to disarm it. Or was it 70? Sure hope the rogues have enough APs to invest in DD, too. I'm sure glad they toned that trap down, aren't you? Sigh....

Emili
06-18-2007, 02:49 PM
Well Halflings are too short to search in the right spot while WF ... well they too rigid:p

That aside that comes with every race... they all have advantages and disadvantages. Especially in the the enhancement areas... looking across all the races you can see they all excell at certain classes thus making some races the best at a particular class - not to say others are not good in such classes but that they cannot not reach the top tier of stat/skill numbers. They do however have other advantages over the "top dog".

Gol
06-18-2007, 02:50 PM
you mean 68+ DD to not risk blowing it up, I presume.

17 ranks
15 item
4 greater hero
3 skill focus
2 nimble fingers
7 +5 tools
6 stat mod
2 luck
4 rogue enh
5 rogue boost
65 total = 15% chance of blowing it up (rolls of 1, 2, and 3) seems perfectly acceptable.

tihocan
06-18-2007, 02:53 PM
It's funny to see these "trap-monkey" rogues get frustrated on this trap. How hard is it to accept there is one trap in the game that is almost impossible to disable? It does not mean the game is broken or some races are unbalanced. This is one single chest that doesn't have anything special in it (as far as I know). I think we should be able to live with it :)

linaewen
06-18-2007, 03:26 PM
my 2 cents: that chest is NOT the best chest in game (even with +1 loot) so looting it is NOT worth any death.

my opinion: even with a rogue, leave that chest alone, behind the secret door you have, of course, spotted.

Talcyndl
06-18-2007, 03:34 PM
Personally, that trap in Cabal elite is the part in the quest (when I am on my thief) that I laugh maniacally at the rest of my non-improved evasion counterparts. I mock them and tease them and see how many times I can get them to die in the trap trying to loot it :)

If they had ninja skills like me, they wouldn't have that problem :eek:

Improved evasion or not, most anyone is going to die in that trap on elite. By all reports, you need a 40 reflex save to avoid the spikes, etc. once the box is open.

Do you actually save when looting that chest? On elite? If so, what's your reflex save and how do you get there?

Cupcake
06-18-2007, 03:43 PM
I suppose if you had close to 300 hit points like me, you wouldn't need improved evasion.

Regular evasion works just fine, your leetness.

LOL

negative
06-18-2007, 03:44 PM
I'm still not buying the fact that this solely comes down to a racial division of the can's and can not's. It just doesn't seem right to me.

Another poster talked about how some classes are more attuned to certain classes, and should have an advantage over other races for that class. Fine, I'll bite. A Halfling's favored class is ....Rogue. So explain to me again why a Halfling Rogue is being left behind in one aspect of rogue-like abilities?

Again, I'm just not buying this division of can's and can not's based solely on race. It should be based on feats, items, enhancments, skill investment, etc.

Here's a solution: Increase the DC of the trap high enough that NOBODY can search it out. Then we all can "get used to imperfection".

Talcyndl
06-18-2007, 03:45 PM
Oh and I've said it before - and never gotten a good response justifying the "spot and search as failure points" design view...

If the designers want to ensure a level of failure, it should be on the Disable checks so that people can at least still succeed every once in a while. A chance of failure (even a very high one) makes for a much more exciting game. In fact, I did it on hard the other day and found the box (51 on the nose). But then I blew it up on a roll of 3 after failing on a 5. :o It was a thrill to watch the die hoping for a good roll.

But if I can't find the box EVER, I don't even get a chance to roll, and there's really not much fun in that.

Making the search DC as high as it is on elite ensures failure for probably over 99% of level 14 rogues. That chest may as well not be there on elite. That's certainly the view of most people running PUGs.

Raithe
06-18-2007, 03:46 PM
Oh brother...

1) The latest development notes clearly indicate that search DCs are being looked at again, with a special emphasis on the ones at or below level 5. This thread is unnecessary as the developers have "already got the message."

2) If this chest didn't have a box, and was a "fake" chest (one that couldn't be opened or had a very mediocre loot level), no one would complain about it. The fact that it is lootable and contains level appropriate items means it becomes a factor in building a rogue. It's continued existence with it's current DCs will eventually help squash anyone's decision to build a human, warforged, or halfling rogue. It will also help make any existing rogues of those races (and rogues without pure trapsmith emphasis) feel inadequate everytime they run the quest. Rogues hardly need more reason to feel inadequate in this game (especially when the skills are those at which a rogue is supposed to excel).

3) If the developers wanted to build an absurdly complicated trap that rogues weren't supposed to be able to defeat until much later on, they should make it a spectacular looking trap with huge dimensions and place it in a dungeon where it was obvious no one of appropriate level would ever be able to disable it. It would also probably need to be guarding something of interest to those beyond the appropriate level, as well.

Jorval
06-18-2007, 08:37 PM
Am I seeing what I THINK I'm seeing???

Did Turbine design a trap that requires a special, purposefully built, extremely rare Rogue to be able to Search and the Disable it? What kind of folly is this??? It's almost like Turbine is saying to all of us that we require some very special Rogue skills to find and disarm this trap or something! I'm absolutely sickened that Turbine would would require an Elite Rogue build to be able to disarm a trap in the game...on Elite...um...uh...nevermind...nothing to see here, go about your business.

P.S.-I can't get it either, but I don't feel any less Roguey, Roguish, Rogulicious, whatever, than before that trap was put in...

BlackPantha
06-18-2007, 08:50 PM
heh maybe by the rogues chest turbine meant they're the only ones(barring multiclasses) that can open it, loot it, and not die. My ranger with a 31 reflex gets absolutetly owned by this trap but a guildies rogue with a 42 reflex has little problem getting it.

Raithe
06-18-2007, 10:32 PM
Did Turbine design a trap that requires a special, purposefully built, extremely rare Rogue to be able to Search and the Disable it?

I think if you asked virtually anyone, they would be fine if the developers created DCs that are barely reachable with a particular build. But greater heroism, a bard's inspire competence, prayer and/or luck gloves, and ultra-high level single purpose equipment (i.e. +13 search goggles) are not part of a build. They are extras that may or may not be available, and may actually conflict with a particular rogue's normal configuration.

In other words, a dirt poor rogue of any race, with patched together equipment and who may be soloing - but who has devoted a huge portion of his build to the art of disabling traps, should still be able to hit high water marks.

Anything else is pure and ugly elitism that serves very little but aggravation.

This game has plenty of aggravation already.

negative
06-19-2007, 08:21 AM
Not to mention, as has been pointed out before, even with all those buffs and "non build element" stuff and fluff, the division still comes down to which race you picked. Either all races should have the same chance (especially races such as halfling that have favored class rogue, I mean, come on), or it should be impossible for all races. Down with racism!;)

Aspenor
06-19-2007, 08:25 AM
Improved evasion or not, most anyone is going to die in that trap on elite. By all reports, you need a 40 reflex save to avoid the spikes, etc. once the box is open.

Do you actually save when looting that chest? On elite? If so, what's your reflex save and how do you get there?

yes I save when looting that chest on elite....in traps my rogue has somewhere around a 40 reflex save with improved uncanny dodge on (which I use one charge in that trap). Uh, how do I get it there? 32 dex, all the trap sense that a full rogue gets and uncanny dodge....spectacular optics....GH

Aspenor
06-19-2007, 08:26 AM
It will also help make any existing rogues of those races (and rogues without pure trapsmith emphasis) feel inadequate everytime they run the quest.

Untrue. I do not feel inadequate when I run that quest. I am not a pure trapsmith by any means. That's the only trap in the game I can't do easily. So what?

My guild skips that room 90% of the time, anyway.

Riddikulus
06-19-2007, 08:42 AM
It's funny to see these "trap-monkey" rogues get frustrated on this trap. How hard is it to accept there is one trap in the game that is almost impossible to disable? It does not mean the game is broken or some races are unbalanced. This is one single chest that doesn't have anything special in it (as far as I know). I think we should be able to live with it :)
Rewind 6 months:

It's funny to see these uber melee types get frustrated on the Titan. How hard is it to accept there is one mob in the game that is almost impossible to kill?

:D

Riddikulus
06-19-2007, 08:45 AM
Oh brother...

1) The latest development notes clearly indicate that search DCs are being looked at again, with a special emphasis on the ones at or below level 5. This thread is unnecessary as the developers have "already got the message."
It is not unnecessary.

The last thing the devs said about this particular trap was that the DCs are where he wanted them to be.

If they are still too high and excludes some races and not others from being able to do the trap no matter how built, buffed or equipped there is still a problem with it that is worthy of discussion.

Talcyndl
06-19-2007, 09:31 AM
yes I save when looting that chest on elite....in traps my rogue has somewhere around a 40 reflex save with improved uncanny dodge on (which I use one charge in that trap). Uh, how do I get it there? 32 dex, all the trap sense that a full rogue gets and uncanny dodge....spectacular optics....GH

Hmm, with a pure build rogue, 30 dex and iud, GH and a +4 save item (which gets me the same +4 to reflex as the spect. optics) I still get eaten alive by that trap on elite.

Aspenor
06-19-2007, 09:32 AM
Hmm, with a pure build rogue, 30 dex and iud, GH and a +4 save item (which gets me the same +4 to reflex as the spect. optics) I still get eaten alive by that trap on elite.

do you use stoneskin? I didnt say I dont take damage. I said I live to tell the tale.

Talcyndl
06-19-2007, 09:44 AM
do you use stoneskin? I didnt say I dont take damage. I said I live to tell the tale.

Yup. Stoneskin from a scroll - so 70 points.

I'll have to take a look at what my peak reflex save actually is. I'm just curious as to what I'm missing that gets folks to 40 or so.

ORCRiST
06-19-2007, 10:34 AM
Am I seeing what I THINK I'm seeing???

Did Turbine design a trap that requires a special, purposefully built, extremely rare Rogue to be able to Search and the Disable it? What kind of folly is this??? It's almost like Turbine is saying to all of us that we require some very special Rogue skills to find and disarm this trap or something! I'm absolutely sickened that Turbine would would require an Elite Rogue build to be able to disarm a trap in the game...on Elite...um...uh...nevermind...nothing to see here, go about your business.

P.S.-I can't get it either, but I don't feel any less Roguey, Roguish, Rogulicious, whatever, than before that trap was put in...

If you have a "elite" (LMAO) rogue that can spot/search/disable that trap on elite, congrats. You are now playing an utterly worthless character. The feats and enhancements that are required to hit those numbers mean your usefulness in any other area or content (sans traps) is f-ing nil. Congrats on getting that one trap though. :rolleyes:

ORCRiST

Beherit_Baphomar
06-19-2007, 11:05 AM
This is just my 2 cp:

It means that people are going to have to accept imperfection and just deal with it.

Being unable to find one trap is hardly an imperfection. Maybe this trapbox was made by a dwarf/elf rogue with uber gear and skills. Something warforged/hafling rogues cant get their pretty lil heads around.

Blazer
06-19-2007, 11:09 AM
Yup. Stoneskin from a scroll - so 70 points.

I'll have to take a look at what my peak reflex save actually is. I'm just curious as to what I'm missing that gets folks to 40 or so.

Sorry, coming in a bit late to this conversation - forgive me if these have been brought up already.

To help get your reflex up to the 40 range, you could try bringing a Paladin along, one who has maxed out his save aura - there is an additional +4. Also throw in Recitation, that's an additional +2.

Aspenor
06-19-2007, 11:11 AM
Being unable to find one trap is hardly an imperfection. Maybe this trapbox was made by a dwarf/elf rogue with uber gear and skills. Something warforged/hafling rogues cant get their pretty lil heads around.

The trap was made by a hobgoblin.

Goblins are notorious for mechanical traps. They love them.

Mad_Bombardier
06-19-2007, 11:21 AM
17 ranks
15 item
7 intel mod (16 start, 2 tome, 6 item = 24 int)
3 skill focus feat
2 luck (is raid loot. +1 luck is normal)
4 rogue skill enh
5 rogue boost
4 greater hero
2 way of the mechanic
1 find traps scroll via UMD

60 Search without race considerations or raid loot. Best I can do. I can hit 62 with a Human, 62 with a Dwarf, 64 with Elf/Drow.

Halflings and Warforged Rogues definately got the shaft.Add to the list:
+2 Inspire Competence Bardsong
+1 Alchemical Fox's influence potion (+2 INT grants +1 to all INT skills)
+3 Alchemical Fox's skill potion
66 Search (and before you ask/complain, the potions are FREE from collectables)

All races can hit this chest if they spec for it. However, as said, respeccing to hit this one chest is not in the best interest of a well rounded player. To update to Gol's numbers, the highest Search I can currently tally is 74 on a Dwarf Rogue with all 3 dragonmark feats. Now THAT'S the highwater mark.

JD2134
06-19-2007, 12:19 PM
Did you think about getting the +4 from GH and +2 from good hope and then another +2 from the bard insirpe confident boost. there another +8 to your skill

MtnLion
06-19-2007, 01:54 PM
I believe that no search DCs should ever exceed 40. The reason for this is simply because we do not get a roll for the search. (It is understandable why we don't roll, since we could reroll forever standing at a known box location.) Spot DCs are in the same boat, but I know the location of most boxes in the game, anyway. Disable DCs should never (even at level 20 elite) exceed 60 (alright, add 2 for hard; and 5 for elite). These should be considered normal maximums for a d20.

Talcyndl
06-19-2007, 02:06 PM
Also throw in Recitation, that's an additional +2.


Good call. I can scroll cast that.

Mourning_Star
06-19-2007, 04:28 PM
i always thought boxes were kind of lame anyway. why go to the trouble of designing this deadly intricate trap that some professional could just simply turn off?

boxes ARE lame. Having played a professional de-trapper in pnp, I 've learned a few things about traps :) Traps are of two major types (in my opinion), switchable and always on. If it is switchable then it can be turned on and off to allow the minions safe passage. If it is always on once activated, minions better have another way around. Switchable traps obviously need a mechanism to turn it on and off. If it's always on... set it and forget it. Disabling a trap doesn't mean finding the switch and turning it off. It can be any means the rogue comes up with to make the trap non-operational. Whether it's gum and paperclip, or the dwarf's head.

I'd like to see a variety of trap boxes, there was apparently a special on trap box mechanisms in Stormreach. Traps without boxes, where you click on the trap itself and attempt to disable. Traps that can't be disabled, but a rogue can find a safe path around/through the trap.

On another thread someone mentioned highlighting the traps so you can see them once you've spotted them. There are many times i've spotted trap boxes but have no idea where they actually are. That just seems silly to me.

Talcyndl
06-19-2007, 04:35 PM
On another thread someone mentioned highlighting the traps so you can see them once you've spotted them. There are many times i've spotted trap boxes but have no idea where they actually are. That just seems silly to me.

Agreed.

A trick I learned to help...use backspace to cycle through nearby objects until you have selected the box. Now use a ranged weapon to shoot at the box. It should show you the direction.

Mourning_Star
06-19-2007, 04:51 PM
Thanks for the tip Talcyndl :)

FlyinS
06-19-2007, 04:53 PM
It's funny to see these "trap-monkey" rogues get frustrated on this trap. How hard is it to accept there is one trap in the game that is almost impossible to disable? It does not mean the game is broken or some races are unbalanced. This is one single chest that doesn't have anything special in it (as far as I know). I think we should be able to live with it :)

I don't think the point is so much about 1 average chest as it is about the example it sets for the game going forward.

negative
06-20-2007, 08:23 AM
Add to the list:
+2 Inspire Competence Bardsong
+1 Alchemical Fox's influence potion (+2 INT grants +1 to all INT skills)
+3 Alchemical Fox's skill potion
66 Search (and before you ask/complain, the potions are FREE from collectables)

All races can hit this chest if they spec for it. However, as said, respeccing to hit this one chest is not in the best interest of a well rounded player. To update to Gol's numbers, the highest Search I can currently tally is 74 on a Dwarf Rogue with all 3 dragonmark feats. Now THAT'S the highwater mark.

If this is indeed true and works, then I retract my previous comments and will say that there is nothing wrong with the trap.

Obviously, my build can't hit that box, but it doesn't matter, as long as it's my build that is holding me back, not my race.

Raithe
06-20-2007, 10:13 AM
Add to the list:
+2 Inspire Competence Bardsong
+1 Alchemical Fox's influence potion (+2 INT grants +1 to all INT skills)
+3 Alchemical Fox's skill potion
66 Search (and before you ask/complain, the potions are FREE from collectables)

All races can hit this chest if they spec for it. However, as said, respeccing to hit this one chest is not in the best interest of a well rounded player. To update to Gol's numbers, the highest Search I can currently tally is 74 on a Dwarf Rogue with all 3 dragonmark feats. Now THAT'S the highwater mark.

Conversation:

Rogue: Ok, here we are at the Cabal for One trap. I'm getting out my checklist. I'm a trap monkey rogue, and don't have much UMD so I'm going to need everyone's help with this. K, here we go. Greater heroism please.

Wizard: Didn't mem it.

Paladin: I have a Gird, here you go.

Rogue: Ok, good. That was a close one. Inspire competence please.

Wizard: We don't have a bard. We actually don't even have a cleric. It's just us four.

Rogue: Oh right. K let me cast this find traps scroll. Oops rolled a 2. Try again. Good. Now I need to drink that +2 skills potion. Let me find it... ah here it is. Let's see now... action boost... activated. Searching... hey my search icon got pulled off my toolbar accidentally. Hang on everyone... got it back. K need to wait for my action boost to reset...

Warforged Barbarian: We'll be in the next room...

Talcyndl
06-20-2007, 10:20 AM
Conversation:

Rogue: Ok, here we are at the Cabal for One trap. I'm getting out my checklist. I'm a trap monkey rogue, and don't have much UMD so I'm going to need everyone's help with this. K, here we go. Greater heroism please.

Wizard: Didn't mem it.

Paladin: I have a Gird, here you go.

Rogue: Ok, good. That was a close one. Inspire competence please.

Wizard: We don't have a bard. We actually don't even have a cleric. It's just us four.

Rogue: Oh right. K let me cast this find traps scroll. Oops rolled a 2. Try again. Good. Now I need to drink that +2 skills potion. Let me find it... ah here it is. Let's see now... action boost... activated. Searching... hey my search icon got pulled off my toolbar accidentally. Hang on everyone... got it back. K need to wait for my action boost to reset...

Warforged Barbarian: We'll be in the next room...

Lol.

I've actually had to ask for folks to be quiet so I could concentrate to make sure I was activating every buff, potion, scroll, etc. And that was just to hit it on Hard. :D

Elfvyra
06-20-2007, 10:23 AM
Great! You've spec'd yourself out to be able to find it. Now, who's got that and the 60+ Disarm to disable the the trap 50% of the time. 70ish to get it 95% of the time. If someone could show the numbers on how to do both AND still be a contributing party member, I'd appreciate it. And please try to keep the number of Uber and Ultra-Rare items needed to a minimum. It's bad enough I have to start finding room in my packs for Collectibles again.....

DKerrigan
06-20-2007, 10:27 AM
I think that the trap should be armed when you agree to help whatshisname as a way of protecting his treasure, but if you kill him, it doesn't arm and you have to deal with the rest of the crazy traps in there.

Then everyone gets 2 chests.

Honestly though, the loots are usually so blah in that chest that the groups I run with usually just run by it...

joker965
06-20-2007, 10:35 AM
Just and idea here. Wouldn't it be better if there was some small chance of setting off the really crazy difficult traps in DDO even with a rogue maxed out for traps?

Isn't it boring to just run through and be basically 100% immune to every trap in a dungeon?

This is not how D&D was/is.

P.S. This is an optional area right? You don't need to find and disarm this trap to finish this quest right? I think there should be more of these.

If this is all about character race possibly there is some point. I for one don't want the races to be "balanced". I want each one to be different. If I was going to build the ultimate "search" rogue I would build an elf. Isn't this how it should be?

DrAwkward
06-20-2007, 02:11 PM
What is the level of the quest on elite?
What should a rogue's search be if he was that level?

We are all used to being able to blow through L14 quests on elite and get everything. Maybe the Devs put something in there to reward us for running it when we are higher levels.

Mad_Bombardier
06-20-2007, 02:16 PM
I think that the trap should be armed when you agree to help whatshisname as a way of protecting his treasure, but if you kill him, it doesn't arm and you have to deal with the rest of the crazy traps in there.

Then everyone gets 2 chests.

Honestly though, the loots are usually so blah in that chest that the groups I run with usually just run by it...I like that idea. Link that chest to Gardak. If you help him, he disables the lair traps and enables that chest. If you fight him, you miss his "other" chest at the end, but get free access to the un-trapped chest.

My friend's Rogue can get the trap on Normal and that covers most relic/quickloot runs. I'm not into powerlooting so don't run things on Elite more than a few times.

Zenix_Leviticus
06-20-2007, 02:18 PM
We did that quest on elite last night and I am sad to say that I only had a
46 search.

We did open the box to see if we could loot it before we died.

Results:

5 of 6 party members died. The 6th member had improved evasion, haste,
aid, greater heroism, and improved uncanny dodge.

The 6th member made it out alive with a brand new +1 sacred heavy shield
of spell resistance 13 and had 5 hit points left.

I will never loot that chest again!

Xendorak
06-20-2007, 02:21 PM
I usually just skip the trap and chest and assume there was a 99% chance that there were a couple of scrolls, gems and inscription materials in there. It's easier for me to justify this than to rework my rogue into dumping everyhting into search to find it. Its only one chest after all and I'd rather have my other skills rounded out. No reason to lose any sleep over it and it gets you to the end reward quicker anyway where the good loot is:)

Riggs
06-20-2007, 02:36 PM
For the same reason that when you leave your car in the parking lot, you lock the door with a key, instead of soldering the door shut.

Awesome

Hakushi
06-20-2007, 10:42 PM
I can do the trap easily on normal, and with some help on hard (bard song or +2 skills potion) but in no way I can do it on elite, and in no way I will respec feats, enhancements or even reroll as the appropriate race to have high enough for the elite trap. I personally think high dc like that for search and spot are completely out of it and stupid because WE DO NOT ROLL on search and spot, it's our skill, and that's all. A high dc for Disarm is different, same with Open Lock because we actually roll when we use these skills.

Slink
06-20-2007, 10:52 PM
too bad most everyone has decided to walk by that chest, have seen quite a few decent if not darn awesome items come out of there on elite....that being said, finding it humorous that noone has mentioned the level of the quest as it pertains to the level of players currently in game (perhaps this is the reason why its hard to find???). Does anyone remember that the restless isles/hips were the same way back in the old days? A challenge is great for the game. Personally I wish there was more content like this, a true challenge to players(well, maybe just rogues), makes the game more fun. What else is there to do now that everyone and their brother/sister has weapons/gear only dreamt of 3-4 months ago....

Riddikulus
06-20-2007, 11:44 PM
I will never loot that chest again!
I figure there is a cool named item in there that no one has managed to loot yet...

Zorlinta
06-20-2007, 11:53 PM
As my though, there should be much more traps like this one on the game, those ubber traps that diference the real trapsmith rogues from the boys :), for my rogue character im leveling this trap is an objective to do, by now the goal to hit, and is good to know that around 61 is the magic number. Ill gonna reach it at lvl 14, it will not be easy and maybe ill not gonna be a awesome killer but her purpose will be a master trapsmith, to play with my friends mostly, and there allways are other ways than just killing mobs to contribute to the party, and too the way u get happiness/fun with your build worths more than anything.

Talcyndl
06-21-2007, 10:10 AM
too bad most everyone has decided to walk by that chest, have seen quite a few decent if not darn awesome items come out of there on elite....that being said, finding it humorous that noone has mentioned the level of the quest as it pertains to the level of players currently in game (perhaps this is the reason why its hard to find???). Does anyone remember that the restless isles/hips were the same way back in the old days? A challenge is great for the game. Personally I wish there was more content like this, a true challenge to players(well, maybe just rogues), makes the game more fun. What else is there to do now that everyone and their brother/sister has weapons/gear only dreamt of 3-4 months ago....

But it's not a "challenge" if you simply can't find the box. See my numerous posts regarding why setting spot and search DC that high is a bad design decision (no rolls = guaranteed failure). So there is not challenge. Only failure.

And btw, two more levels (in the Fall?) isn't going to get people the 10 extra search skill points most need. You can get two from skill point ranks. And maybe with new enhancement lines (and spending all your enhancement points on search) you could get another 3 or so. But that still leaves even a really tweaked out non-elf (ie, my little halfling) about 5 search.

Not the end of the world, but still a poor design in my opinion.

Talcyndl
06-21-2007, 10:13 AM
As my though, there should be much more traps like this one on the game, those ubber traps that diference the real trapsmith rogues from the boys :), for my rogue character im leveling this trap is an objective to do, by now the goal to hit, and is good to know that around 61 is the magic number. Ill gonna reach it at lvl 14, it will not be easy and maybe ill not gonna be a awesome killer but her purpose will be a master trapsmith, to play with my friends mostly, and there allways are other ways than just killing mobs to contribute to the party, and too the way u get happiness/fun with your build worths more than anything.

It's cool you are doing this.

But man, that's going to be a rough character to play. I wish you luck not being a liability to your party (especially any PUGs) on the 99% of the quests that aren't Cabal on elite.

I imagine it's doable, but personally I can't see one box being worth the tradeoffs you will have to make.

Aspenor
06-21-2007, 10:25 AM
I figure there is a cool named item in there that no one has managed to loot yet...

My +1 Paralyzing Light Repeating Crossbow of Lesser Halfling Bane suffices for me to loot it reguarly.

draculan13
07-09-2007, 02:54 AM
http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o238/Diggers_Union/ScreenShot00242.jpg
realized there was no xp box in this one, so theres these other ones too

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...nShot00258.jpg

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o...nShot00255.jpg
_______________________________
elven rogue Caedes of the Diggers Union, Mabar Server

elven perception 4, rogue skill search 4, skill boost 4, search 13 goggles, hat of intel +6, planar gird, rabbit gloves

even then the disable is a lil high

this may be the best rogue chest in the game, i had a lot of fun with it, but i dunno if its rogue solo material, theres about 16 guys in the way of the trap...

Salicci
08-13-2007, 07:44 AM
Seriously, I think 50% of the traps in the game should be more of a challenge to get to and loot. It justifies the Rogue class as a special breed. A "THEIF". Think about it, If your worried about kill counts than roll a Tank. If more of the traps and chests were as fatal or as challenging as the Cabal for One chest people would be begging for Rogue's to group with them. Then we would actually have a purpose in the game other than a back up fighter. But sadly enough, there is no need for a Rogue, especially when you have Fighters and Barbarians with 400 hp's that just blow through traps and expect Clerics to just toss them a few heals as they continue swining their two handers with a 26AC. I hope the Devs continue challenging the Rogue Class, its refreshing and gives us a purpose. You wouldnt think about doing an elite level quest without a Cleric, Caster, or Tank. It should be the same for a Rogue with exceptionally high skills. The reason nobody cares about it is because it is only one chest, imagine if they decided to make 50% of the loot in this game guarded in the same challenging way. Ohh now youll really need a Rogue if you want a shot at that +3 Vorpal greatsword of pure good!!! Something to think about. Ohhh BTW my LVL 14 Rogue is at a 58 search and the same for DD....but I will get it...Trust me!!!!:)

Riddikulus
08-13-2007, 08:13 AM
Let me start by saying I do have a rogue (see sig) and I do know the trouble we have getting into groups.

That said:


If more of the traps and chests were as fatal or as challenging as the Cabal for One chest people would be begging for Rogue's to group with them.

I believe Graal or TRD has stated that they do not want to make rogues "required", any more than any other class is "required". Having a trap in the critical path through a quest that no non-rogue can traverse would in effect make the quest "require" a rogue. Arguably crucible is pretty close to a rogue required quest, but more for rogues evasion ability as opposed to traps (rangers would qualify here too).


You wouldnt think about doing an elite level quest without a Cleric, Caster, or Tank.
I have seen effective parties without those classes. It requires a different playstyle to pull it off, but it is absolutely doable.


Ohhh BTW my LVL 14 Rogue is at a 58 search and the same for DD....but I will get it...Trust me!!!!:)
As others have said, if you build a rogue to beat cabal elite while you are below the quest level you will have a very gimped rogue.

negative
08-13-2007, 08:17 AM
Seriously, I think 50% of the traps in the game should be more of a challenge to get to and loot. It justifies the Rogue class as a special breed. A "THEIF". Think about it, If your worried about kill counts than roll a Tank.

You've totally, and completely, missed the point.

In fact you've missed the point of the whole of the rogue class entirely. IE: The class isn't called "thief" anymore for a reason. If all you can do is disable traps and watch the rest of the group finish the combat for you, then YOU are the reason groups don't want to bring rogues in their parties, regardless of how hard the traps are. All your suggestion will do is make parties begrudingly invite rogues on those specific quests where the traps are super-fatal. Which is what we have now. On the other hand, if everyone made their rogues BOTH trap monkeys and excellent in combat, rogues would be invited to ALL missions just as much as any combat class.

Personally, my guild has a lot of rogues that are built well for both traps and combat. So most of my groups almost always have atleast one rogue in them, who more than hold their own.

ahpook
08-13-2007, 10:22 PM
Wouldn't it be really cool if there was mob in the game that Warforged and Human fighters couldn't hit but all other races could? Didn't think so.

In fact, it stinks that there is no roll on search (and spot) and that it is simple pass/fail that says "YOU SUCK". Even if you are only one point shy of finding the trap/door. If fighters with a to Hit of 30 could always hit a mob and ones with a to hit 29 could never hit a mob, what kind of out cry would there be then?

If it was a roll at least there would be a chance of getting it unless you were way short of the mark (more than 20 points shy). Make it a roll but add 1 to the DC for each successive search so eventually you cannot find it if you miss enough. Perhaps that is not even necessary as the time to do 10 searches will be enough disincentive to running with low skills.

Hvymetal
08-14-2007, 04:28 AM
Wouldn't it be really cool if there was mob in the game that Warforged and Human fighters couldn't hit but all other races could? Didn't think so.

In fact, it stinks that there is no roll on search (and spot) and that it is simple pass/fail that says "YOU SUCK". Even if you are only one point shy of finding the trap/door. If fighters with a to Hit of 30 could always hit a mob and ones with a to hit 29 could never hit a mob, what kind of out cry would there be then?

If it was a roll at least there would be a chance of getting it unless you were way short of the mark (more than 20 points shy). Make it a roll but add 1 to the DC for each successive search so eventually you cannot find it if you miss enough. Perhaps that is not even necessary as the time to do 10 searches will be enough disincentive to running with low skills.
I hate arguments from analogy, but really with your 30 and 29 to hit example above I think you made a very good analogy that kinda points out the difference.

Ziggy
08-14-2007, 08:15 AM
Wouldn't it be really cool if there was mob in the game that Warforged and Human fighters couldn't hit but all other races could? Didn't think so.

In fact, it stinks that there is no roll on search (and spot) and that it is simple pass/fail that says "YOU SUCK". Even if you are only one point shy of finding the trap/door. If fighters with a to Hit of 30 could always hit a mob and ones with a to hit 29 could never hit a mob, what kind of out cry would there be then?

If it was a roll at least there would be a chance of getting it unless you were way short of the mark (more than 20 points shy). Make it a roll but add 1 to the DC for each successive search so eventually you cannot find it if you miss enough. Perhaps that is not even necessary as the time to do 10 searches will be enough disincentive to running with low skills.


I hate arguments from analogy, but really with your 30 and 29 to hit example above I think you made a very good analogy that kinda points out the difference.
well technically you can always hit on a 20.:cool:

a 20 on a skills roll does not equate an automatic success whereas it does on an attack roll.

Hvymetal
08-14-2007, 08:22 AM
well technically you can always hit on a 20.:cool:

a 20 on a skills roll does not equate an automatic success whereas it does on an attack roll.

True, I did not say it was a perfect analogy, but close enough to highlight the point I think.

Personally, I've changed my thinking on it, meh, it's one chest I am not going to spend almost every available action point, a feat, a boost, a +6 Int helm and +15 rr Search Goggles, some Rabbit Gloves, pop a + Int skill potion, pop a GH scroll, beg for a prayer, pop a Detect Traps scroll and carry a pocket bard to hit one trap.

Gnash
08-14-2007, 08:34 AM
Then, once you've found it, all you need to do is come up with 68+ DD to disarm it. Or was it 70? Sure hope the rogues have enough APs to invest in DD, too. I'm sure glad they toned that trap down, aren't you? Sigh....

A little FYI I crit failed that trap today on a 70! Which would mean the mark to disable was atleast 76.

negative
08-14-2007, 08:55 AM
True, I did not say it was a perfect analogy, but close enough to highlight the point I think.

Personally, I've changed my thinking on it, meh, it's one chest I am not going to spend almost every available action point, a feat, a boost, a +6 Int helm and +15 rr Search Goggles, some Rabbit Gloves, pop a + Int skill potion, pop a GH scroll, beg for a prayer, pop a Detect Traps scroll and carry a pocket bard to hit one trap.

There is no problem with a few traps in the game being like this. Most of the outcry on this thread is against people like Salicci that are calling for almost ALL the traps in the game to be like this.

Hvymetal
08-14-2007, 11:24 AM
There is no problem with a few traps in the game being like this. Most of the outcry on this thread is against people like Salicci that are calling for almost ALL the traps in the game to be like this.
Ohhh god please no, then rogues will not get invited to any quests that do not have traps, and thats only if the group decides not to ironman them and suck up the damage.

negative
08-14-2007, 11:25 AM
Ohhh god please no, then rogues will not get invited to any quests that do not have traps, and thats only if the group decides not to ironman them and suck up the damage.

Couldn't have said it better myself


<snip>regarding all traps being as hard as the cabal trap</snip> All your suggestion will do is make parties begrudingly invite rogues on those specific quests where the traps are super-fatal.

binnsr
08-14-2007, 11:33 AM
17 ranks
15 item
8 intel mod (16 start, 2 tome, +2 levelups, 6 item = 24 int)
3 skill focus feat
2 luck
4 rogue skill enh
5 rogue boost
4 greater hero
2 way of the mechanic
1 find traps scroll via UMD

61 Search without race considerations or raid loot. Best I can do. I can hit 63 with a Human, 63 with a Dwarf, 67 with Elf/Drow.

Halflings and Warforged Rogues definately got the shaft.

Fixed it for ya .. with the proper (read ultimate) gear and a massive investment in APs and feats, any class can theoretically get it..

Riddikulus
08-14-2007, 11:48 AM
Fixed it for ya .. with the proper (read ultimate) gear and a massive investment in APs and feats, any class can theoretically get it..
The question is whether or not the ability to Search and the ability to Disable mutually exclusive. :D

binnsr
08-14-2007, 12:10 PM
The question is whether or not the ability to Search and the ability to Disable mutually exclusive. :D
true .. hadn't read the whole thread.. i'll just go put my foot in my mouth now :D

Yajerman01
08-14-2007, 12:13 PM
My 14 lvl rogue is yes a halfling and yeah so he is gimped on one trap. It doesnt matter to me in the grand scheme of things. I am able to work all other traps, so whats the big issue? Like someone else said, i have other attributes that other races dont have so there!

As for looting it, the loot isnt all that great. Call me selfish, but I will go in and open the chest anyway and take the loot and get out just before I die. THANK YOU GREATER EVASION!

Then some of the heavy HP tanks will jump in and get their loot and get out before death too, its just the real squeeshies that cant get their loot - o well, sorry for that, next time hire a Drow rogue then.

oronisi
08-14-2007, 12:16 PM
Oh and I've said it before - and never gotten a good response justifying the "spot and search as failure points" design view...

If the designers want to ensure a level of failure, it should be on the Disable checks so that people can at least still succeed every once in a while. A chance of failure (even a very high one) makes for a much more exciting game. In fact, I did it on hard the other day and found the box (51 on the nose). But then I blew it up on a roll of 3 after failing on a 5. :o It was a thrill to watch the die hoping for a good roll.

But if I can't find the box EVER, I don't even get a chance to roll, and there's really not much fun in that.

Making the search DC as high as it is on elite ensures failure for probably over 99% of level 14 rogues. That chest may as well not be there on elite. That's certainly the view of most people running PUGs.

Ooor the devs could just raise all search and spot checks by 10 and add a 1d20 to all search and spot checks, adding in randomness. Now you'll be able to search for the cabal chance, sometimes failing, sometimes succeeding. For spot, make automatic rerolls every 1 second. Don't add +10 to the spidey sense though, because in 1 second, you'll be inside the trap rather than warned before hitting it.

Whargoul
08-14-2007, 01:33 PM
If you have a "elite" (LMAO) rogue that can spot/search/disable that trap on elite, congrats. You are now playing an utterly worthless character. The feats and enhancements that are required to hit those numbers mean your usefulness in any other area or content (sans traps) is f-ing nil. Congrats on getting that one trap though. :rolleyes:


I disagree, you can have a useful build and still hit those numbers. I play a 1 Rogue/13 Cleric (drow). I have slightly less mana since I don't have either mental toughness feats, but I play clerics all the time and you'd never know the difference if you grouped with me.

17 ranks
15 item
8 26 int
2 drow racial
4 drow enh
1 rogue enh
2 rogue boost
4 greater hero
1 luck
3 skill focus
6 find traps
2 inspire
1 alchemical int
3 alchemical skill
=69 Search

17 ranks
15 item
8 26 int
1 rogue enh
2 rogue boost
4 greater hero
1 luck
3 skill focus
2 nimble
7 tools
2 inspire
1 alchemical int
3 alchemical skill
= 66 Disable

I've played a long time and even though I have some fantastic equipment, none of it is raid loot. I've spent 14 action points and 3 feats on rogue skills. I also took extend spell and empower healing for clericing, and have eaten +1 tomes on every stat. I have 30 wis (with +2 tome), over 1100 mana, greater potency VI, Improved Empower Healing III, Life Magic IV, 11 DVs, and can out trap-monkey 90% of the rogues I group with. It's a blast! The only downside is I can't disable any traps that require evasion (not that many in the game anyway), and I'm not much of a combatant with only 198 HP.

I originally built the character to be able to hit all the runes in Xorian Cipher and disable all the traps.

-Whargoul