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MysticTheurge
06-09-2007, 11:25 AM
Ok, call be crazy, but I'm going to throw a proposal out there and just see what everyone has to say about it.

As it currently stands, metamagics are a toggle that you turn on and off, and which affect any spell they can possibly affect which is cast while they are turned on. Each metamagic feat applies a spell-point multiplier to the cost of the spell. There are no limits on how many metamagic feats you can apply to a single spell.

Here's my alternative proposal:

You apply metamagic when memorizing a spell. Each metamagic feat has a number of spell levels that it costs. When memorizing spells you can select a spell of a given level, or you can select a lower level spell combine with the appropriate metamagic feat. You cannot combine spells and metamagic feats that would result in a spell level above the highest level you can cast. The SP costs for casting a metamagic'd spell would simply be the cost of casting a spell of that spell level.

Example:

A cleric knows Extend Spell and wants to memorize Extended Resist Energy. Resist Energy is normally a second level spell and Extending a spell adds one spell level to the spell. So the cleric goes to his page of third level spells and sees "Extended Resist Energy" as one of the options. He drags this down to his list of memorized spells. Now he can put that in the hotbar and cast the spell and it will always be extended.

The system has a few benefits, a few drawbacks and a few issues:

Benefit: Metamagics cost less. The current implementation which uses an SP-Cost multiplier is far more costly than a D&D-like spell slot increase. Consider the feats we currently have available:


SP Cost with SP Cost with
Feat Slot Incrs. SP Multiplier
Empower Spell 10 SPs 10-40 SPs
Enlarge Spell 5 SPs 5-20 SPs
Extend Spell 5 SPs 5-20 SPs
Heighten Spell 5-35 SPs 5-35 SPs
Maximize Spell 15 SPs 20-80 SPs
Quicken Spell 20 SPs 10-40 SPs


Quicken, is in fact, the only metamagic which might actually (under certain circumstances) cost more using this system, and that may just be because they've determined that Quicken is less powerful in DDO than in D&D (which it certainly is). As such, I'd probably reduce the slot increase from 4 to 2, which would keep it in line with other metamagics currently costing twice as many spell points (i.e. Empower).

Drawback: Higher power feats cannot be used with higher power spells. The system places a maximum on how higher you can stack metamagic feats and spells. Only 4th and lower spells can be maximized. Only 5th and lower spells can be empowered. Only 2nd and lower spells can be maximized and empowered.

I think that this actually has some potential benefit. Currently, there is something of the collective belief that casters can achieve really (really really) high damage numbers. And, while that's true, they do so at incredible cost, getting as high as 1/10(-ish) of their total spell points. While this system would limit spellcasters abilities to achieve those numbers to a degree (you can still max/empower a scorching ray ;)), it would also mean that they're not blowing large portions of their spell point pool on single castings. It might even help convince people that damage numbers for spells need to be reevaluated.

Benefit: Flexibility. A huge part of the problem with the current metamagic implementation is that the caster has very little control over what gets metamagic'd and what doesn't. Empowered Finger of Death, Heightened Cure Serious Wounds, Empowered-Healing'd Heals, there are all kinds of things in the system that most people just don't want being metamagic'd. This system gives the user total control over what gets the benefits of his metamagic feats and what doesn't. Taking it a step further, Heighten (which actually doesn't pick up any SP savings from our first benefit) has an additional level of control. Instead of being forced to Heighten any spell you cast to the top-most level of spells you're capable of casting, you can instead Heighten any spell to any other level of spell that you're capable of casting.

Drawback: You're likely to be metamagic'ing fewer spells overall. Given that you won't be able to use low level slots for metamagic'd spells (which the current system allows you to do), a given caster will have access to fewer metamagic'd spells overall. The caster is also left with the problematic decision of whether to memorize metamagic'd lower level spells or the more powerful, but un-metamagic'd, higher level spells.

Issue: Spontaneous Casters. Bards, Sorcerers and Cleric-Healing-Spells are not "memorized" like other spells, and so this system can't work the same way for those casters (and spells). An alternative method of applying metamagics to known spells for spontaneous casting, would have to be worked out. Theoretically, it could be as simple as having a set-up that automatically "memorizes" any possible application of your spells known-metamagic combinations. Thus, a sorcerer with empower would have icons on his list for any empowerable spell he knows set at the appropriate level/cost. You might also need to increase the casting time (as per the D&D rules) and/or cooldown on these metamagic'd spells to maintain appropriate balance.

Thoughts?

usif
06-09-2007, 12:16 PM
I think just being able to toolbar spells with it metemagicked would be a hundred times better then now.

Mad_Bombardier
06-09-2007, 05:37 PM
A lot more intricate than the current toggle system. And may be very overwhelming to non-PnP players.

And as you said, if we metamagic everything, we'd actually lose quite a few spells. Sure, we can set Scorching Ray to be Max/Empowered, but lose 1 lvl 6 spell (GrHero, Disintegrate, etc.). No more FoD/Otto's because we're extending Gr Heroism. In that regard we lose flexibilty because there is nothing left to take level 1 and 2 spell slots (well, we can Empower MM for level 2).

I dunno MT, gonna have to sleep on this one. I'd love to have more SP, but the loss of spell slots cost might be too great.

Khalai
06-09-2007, 08:01 PM
Very interesting MT. The Wizard solution seems like it might be too confusing to the non PnPers. The spontaneous spellcasters, however, seem like they could have less confusion.

If what we're going for is a PnP like system, then if I recall, spontaneous spellcasters can apply as many metamagic feats as they have to a spell they can cast as long as the feats do not take it to a spell slot they do not have and can choose this at the time of casting, (eg. a 12th level sorcerer can cast maximized scorching rays, but not disintegrates) and increases the casting time. (eg from one standard to a full round action)

It seems like one of the simpler solutions would be to have separate pages on the spellbook for feats. Such as a page with spells that can be extended, another for maximize, etc. Problems arise when multiple feats can apply to multiple spells.

Another way is to have a drag and click system to create icons with feats applied in the spellbook then dragged to the hotbar. Choose a spell. Apply feats. Then it goes to the appropriate page in the book.

Anyways those are some musings for the spontaneous spellcaster

Brianius
06-09-2007, 10:33 PM
the current system is fine and easy to understand, your suggestion makes people think and takes some of the fun out of casting

Invalid_86
06-09-2007, 11:39 PM
My initial thought is for all of the trouble why not just use 3.5 spell slots? That would also help with the whole Wizard vs Sorceror spellcasting thing too.

Mad_Bombardier
06-10-2007, 09:18 AM
your suggestion makes people think and takes some of the fun out of castingImagine that, Wizards needing to think. :p For CHA based Sorcerors, sure they just flip their hair, say something witty and 'blam-o' with a spell. But, intelligent Wizards? Who'da thunk it!?! :eek:

Turial
06-10-2007, 10:21 AM
Sounds like an interesting way to rework the metamagic system. My worry is that it forces casters to either stay as buff bots or switch to nukers that are focused very highly on fire damage and use scorching ray as a man damage dealing spell. Switching to this system could work but it would require tweeking of many of the games "core" (I use the term loosely) systems.

Let me do some math for a second. I play a buffing ranger. 3 level 1 spell slots, 2 level 2 slots, 2 level 3 slots, and 1 level 4 slot. Spells for me cost 10, 15, 20, 25 sp respectively, I think. Under the current system I have 405 sp and cast the following buffs upon entering a dungeon: resist energy fire, resist energy acid, barkskin, and freedom of movement. All these spells are extended so I'm looking at a sp cost of 15, 15, 22.5, 37.5 per player with me (only tanks and cleric get the freedom of movement if I run low on sp) or 90*6 = 540 sp. More then I have to cover the whole group to an acceptable level by my philosophy.

I memorize the following spells: Jump, Energy resistance, Camo, Barkskin, Energy protection, Cure moderate wounds, Remove disease, Freedom of movement. Under the memorize spell and metamagic system that you propose MT it looks would most likely be: Jump, Energy resistance, camo, barkskin, Extended energy resistance, Cure moderate wounds, Extended barksin, Freedom of movement. Its a slight reduction in number of spells memorized but Protection from elements is not all that great and remove disease really only works if I do not buff people to the gills. Cost wise I'm looking at 15, 15, 20, 30 per player or 80*6 = 480 sp still more then I have but overall some people will get an additonal buff they did not before.

Not to bad overall for me as a buffing player but the math and spell slot thing becomes more complicated for casters with a more involved spell list. As a player with a cleric MT how would this system affect your choices in what spells to take? Do you loose any of the buffs that the tanks love to have? Does it reduce your choice in offensive spells as a cleric?

Feyt
06-10-2007, 11:47 AM
Essentially, you are suggesting to memorize different spells, rather than use metamagic feats. The point of metamagic feats is spontaneity - you are supposed to think about what spells to prepare ahead and then if you run into a problem that could make a spell more efficient by use of a metamagic feat you use the feat. Your solution, in effect, is simply memorize a more powerful or varied version of a spell which defeats the point of using a metamagic feat to meet an unexpected situation. With your system wouldn't we have a fireball level 1, fireball level 2, fireball level 3, etc., all being differen't spells... which seems rather generic to me.

Mad_Bombardier
06-10-2007, 11:57 AM
Feyt, what MT is proposing is how metamagics work in D&D. Yes, the DDO implementation is very flexible. You can not metamagic for normal play, then metamagic for a boss. You can extend buffs, or not because you are about to finish the quest or go back to a shrine. But, MT is proposing that move toward the D&D system. We lose some of that flexibility for SP savings and being able to cast more with our current SP pool.

I still haven't decided, but it's an interesting proposal.

GeneralDiomedes
06-10-2007, 12:05 PM
I think just being able to toolbar spells with it metemagicked would be a hundred times better then now.

I think this would make most people happy .. I'm not sure we need to impose even more restrictions on players at this point with the proposed system.

Feyt
06-10-2007, 12:09 PM
Hrmmm.... I just looked at the hypertext d20 SRD... and you are right. I never played D&D with metamagic feats.

"Metamagic Feats

As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
Wizards and Divine Spellcasters

Wizards and divine spellcasters must prepare their spells in advance. During preparation, the character chooses which spells to prepare with metamagic feats (and thus which ones take up higher-level spell slots than normal).
Sorcerers and Bards

Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot. But because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is 1 standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.)

For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
Spontaneous Casting and Metamagic Feats

A cleric spontaneously casting a cure or inflict spell can cast a metamagic version of it instead. Extra time is also required in this case. Casting a 1-action metamagic spell spontaneously is a full-round action, and a spell with a longer casting time takes an extra full-round action to cast."

Taken from The Hypertext d20 SRD http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#metamagicFeats

I withdraw my earlier comment, lol.

Mad_Bombardier
06-10-2007, 12:14 PM
Hrmmm.... I just looked at the hypertext d20 SRD... and you are right. I never played D&D with metamagic feats.

I withdraw my earlier comment, lol.No need to apologize, its an open discussion afterall! I was just trying to say that the proposal is not completely made up. You're point is valid. The current DDO implementation is very flexible, even if it does cost us more SP in the long run.

Kind of like people that buy on credit and happily pay fees for convenience now versus people who plan ahead and pay cash for everything even if it means waiting.

MysticTheurge
06-10-2007, 12:42 PM
As a player with a cleric MT how would this system affect your choices in what spells to take? Do you loose any of the buffs that the tanks love to have? Does it reduce your choice in offensive spells as a cleric?

I may not be the best example since Extend is the only metamagic I have, but here goes:

Memorized under the current system
1st - Bane, Command, Divine Favor, Protection From Evil, Remove Fear
2nd - Bear's Endurance, Deific Vengence, Hold Person, Resist Energy, Soundburst
3rd - Mass Aid, Bestow Curse, Contagion, Protection from Energy, Searing Light
4th - Death Ward, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Recitation, Mass Shield of Faith
5th - Break Enchantment, Raise Dead, Spell Resistance, True Seeing
6th - Blade Barrier, Cometfall, Harm, Heal
7th - Destruction, Greater Restoration, Ressurection

Memorized under the proposed system
1st - Bane, Command, Doom, Nimbus of Light, Remove Fear
2nd - Bear's Endurance, Deific Vengence, Extended Divine Favor, Hold Person, Soundburst
3rd - Bestow Curse, Contagion, Protection from Energy, Extended Resist Energy, Searing Light
4th - Extended Mass Aid, Extended Magic Circle against Evil, Extended Prayer, Recitation, Restoration,
5th - Extended Death Ward, Extended Divine Power, Extended Freedom of Movement, Extended Mass Shield of Faith
6th - Cometfall, Harm, Heal, Extended True Seeing
7th - Extended Blade Barrier, Destruction, Ressurection

Definitely some losses there though only a couple I'll really, definitely miss (Greater Restoration, Spell Resistance). In exchange, I'll effectively have a whole lot more spell points. I save 3 spell points every time I cast Resist Energy, 5 for every Mass Aid, Prayer and Magic circle against Evil, 8 for every Death Ward, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement or Mass Shield of Faith, 10 for every True Seeing and 13 every time I cast Blade Barrier.

Assuming you figure I buff 6 people with 2 resist energies, death ward and freedom of movement, 4 more people get True seeing, and I give myself the other 2 handy resists and I cast one mass aid, one magic circle and one mass shield of faith, that's 196 spell points saved just on buffing. If you figure in that I cast 4 blade barriers, 4 DF/DP combos and 4 prayers during the course of the adventure, that's another 104, for a total savings of 300 spell points.

This, in turn, lets me cast a whole lot more harms, searing lights, contagions, hold persons or other offensive spells over the course of the quest. So, no, I'd say it doesn't force me into a single role. The trick, of course, will be putting together a spell list that combines all the things you want to do, which will allow you to do more of all of them with the subsequent SP savings.

Now, I really haven't taken a look through the Arcane list, and I don't have a whole lot of experience with them. It seems pretty clear that the system gets more complicated the more metamagic feats you actually have, and so Arcanes, who tend to use metamagic more heavily, would potentially be more adversely affected in terms of possibilities.

Though, another thing to note is that in looking at building this list, it became clear that the system makes you think more about the application of your metamagics. Do I, for instance, want to extend Bear's Endurance which I really seldom use and mostly only cast on summoned monsters? Probably not, since summons are dead or dispelled before the duration runs out, and in those rare cases that someone doesn't have a +4 con item, they can deal with a shorter Bear's. Likewise, Protection from Energy, which has usually run out of protection long before it's 14 minutes is up, doesn't need to be extended either.

Also, a system like this would certainly result it people have a wider variety of spell lists built. Currently, one of the things that's odd about DDO is that people pretty much build a list and stick with it, and across different characters those lists can tend to be pretty similar. A system like this would certainly mix things up a bit more.

MysticTheurge
06-10-2007, 12:52 PM
I think this would make most people happy .. I'm not sure we need to impose even more restrictions on players at this point with the proposed system.

As a side note, I've been suggesting a sort of Metamagic-Sets system for a while, where you just combine the spells you memorized with the metamagics you know and then put the resulting Set in your hotbar. That would certainly be a workable solution to the "Maximized Finger of Death" and "Heightened Cure Serious Wounds" problems.

But in thinking over the possibilities of that system and potentially kicking around the way it might work (and, as it happens, playing NWN which uses a flat-out spell slot system and so works exactly as it does in D&D), I started thinking about a system like the one proposed here. Yes, it has some restrictions we don't have now, and in some ways the current system is far more flexible. But it also has some significant benefits we don't have now (it makes for some potentially huge SP savings) and it adds some flexibility we don't have now (since a given metamagic isn't all-or-nothing). A metamagic-sets system would give us the latter of those two things, but not the former.

I have to admit that, like Mad_B, I'm not entirely sold on the system myself (despite being the one to suggest it); there's definitely some nice things about it, and there's definitely some things that I can see being frustrating for people. But I figured I'd go ahead and put it out there and see what other people thought of it.

QuantumFX
06-10-2007, 04:11 PM
Mystic Theurge - I can see how this would work for everyone but Sorcs and Bards. Would they get a list of hotbar icons on their spell lists to represent all the variants of MM feats? If so, we're talking A LOT of icons on the hotbars and a lot of lists in the spellbook.

grizzly_ruin
06-10-2007, 04:15 PM
Issue: Spontaneous Casters. Bards, Sorcerers and Cleric-Healing-Spells are not "memorized" like other spells, and so this system can't work the same way for those casters (and spells).

That's pretty much everybody else.

So what you're proposing is a dual system with an entirely different set up just for Wizards.

That just seems cumbersome.

This also takes a step backwards in trying to make higher level spells more appealing/powerful as they would no longer be able to recieve the same metamagics as lower level spells.


Drawback: You're likely to be metamagic'ing fewer spells overall. Given that you won't be able to use low level slots for metamagic'd spells (which the current system allows you to do), a given caster will have access to fewer metamagic'd spells overall. The caster is also left with the problematic decision of whether to memorize metamagic'd lower level spells or the more powerful, but un-metamagic'd, higher level spells.

This is a massive drawback, and way out of balance with any benefits the system might have.

If Wizards had to lose upper level slots to metamagic lower spell slots, this would pretty much wreak havoc on their gameplay. Not to mention their are actually spell levels (like level 5) where opening up an extra L5 slot by using a metamagic on a L5 spell and moving it up to a higher level would be a major pain, since there really aren't that many useful L5 spells.

Something as simple as a small menu similar to resist: energy or teleport, with all metamagic feats listed and perhaps a "lock" (like the one we lock inventory with) using the metamagic icons instead of a lock, would be significantly less unweildly.

This would allow us more flexibility and allow us to keep using metamagic spells on all the spells we need to.

I'd also like to see them actually fix the metamagic enhancers before they proceed to make further changes to the system.

Gimpster
06-10-2007, 04:41 PM
So what you're proposing is a dual system with an entirely different set up just for Wizards.

That just seems cumbersome.
No. The proposal was for one system for wiz, cleric, paladin, and ranger, and another for sorc/bard (with 7 specific cleric spells using the second system as well).

Yes, it is cumbersome, but it's not necessarily bad that wiz and sorc have a bigger difference in how their spells work. After the 4.1 update changed spells so sorcs no longer have 1/2 the firing rate as a wizard, it's possible they need something else to compensate.

In PnP, if a sorc foregoes a familiar he gets a big advantage in Metamagic flexibility. It could be OK for DDO to provide something corresponding.

MysticTheurge
06-10-2007, 08:34 PM
Not to mention their are actually spell levels (like level 5) where opening up an extra L5 slot by using a metamagic on a L5 spell and moving it up to a higher level would be a major pain, since there really aren't that many useful L5 spells.

But you would, in all likelihood just use those slots for other metamagic'd spells. I discovered something similar in building out a working list of spells above. Normally, I have trouble narrowing down my 4th level spells because there are a lot of useful Cleric 4 spells, but since I extend most of them, my level 4 slots are lot more open under the proposed system. I ended up with some extended level 3 spells that I don't normally carry at all right now.

With more metamagic feats you'd have even more flexibility in what to put there. A 5th level slot can be an Extended 4th level spell, an Empowered 3rd level spell or a Maximized 2nd level spell.


I'd also like to see them actually fix the metamagic enhancers before they proceed to make further changes to the system.

That, actually, wouldn't make any sense. If they were going to overhaul the metamagic system, it'd be a waste of time to fix anything that was related to the system prior to doing so. Just like when the enhancement system was getting it's rewrite there were a few enhancement bugs that just never got fixed, since it was a waste of energy to try to fix them under the old system when there was going to be a whole new system taking it's place.

Given that metamagic enhancements would need a whole new set of rules to interact appropriately with the proposed system, fixing them and then implementing it would just be a waste of time, since they'd just have to be "fixed" again.

grizzly_ruin
06-10-2007, 10:28 PM
No. The proposal was for one system for wiz, cleric, paladin, and ranger, and another for sorc/bard (with 7 specific cleric spells using the second system as well).

Mystic has Cleric healing spells listed under spontaneous in his OP.

And I didn't even really consider Paladins and Rangers.



Yes, it is cumbersome, but it's not necessarily bad that wiz and sorc have a bigger difference in how their spells work. After the 4.1 update changed spells so sorcs no longer have 1/2 the firing rate as a wizard, it's possible they need something else to compensate.

Getting double SP from SP items seems pretty nice.

They also exist in a game system where you don't really need anything other than spells that relate directly to combat. Which is a massive advantage.


But you would, in all likelihood just use those slots for other metamagic'd spells. I discovered something similar in building out a working list of spells above. Normally, I have trouble narrowing down my 4th level spells because there are a lot of useful Cleric 4 spells, but since I extend most of them, my level 4 slots are lot more open under the proposed system. I ended up with some extended level 3 spells that I don't normally carry at all right now.

With more metamagic feats you'd have even more flexibility in what to put there. A 5th level slot can be an Extended 4th level spell, an Empowered 3rd level spell or a Maximized 2nd level spell.

Unfortunately rather than help most casters out this would be a hinderance.

Playing on Elite, you wind up using metamagic on at the very least 50% of your spells, if not more.

For example, there isn't a single spell under L7 that gets a saving throw that I don't use Heighten on.

I can use heighten on nearly every spell I want in the current system and overall it doesn't cause any problems for me due to overuse of SP.

And there'd be no reason I wouldn't just want everything automatically heightened to L7.

Under this proposal, that would be impossible and it would seriously reduce the number of functional spells in game.

I honestly believe, this system would only serve to hamstring casters even further at the endgame.

Turial
06-10-2007, 10:31 PM
Its useful seeing the spell list that you would use MT. To see any holes in the system we need to have a wizard to post their normal spell set and then what one would look like should this system be implemented.

Racolus
06-10-2007, 10:38 PM
This concept is what I have been thinking after I played my wizzy to 14. Ya it should be done that way, in the middle of a thick battle, asking you to change 'stance', even just 2 sec, is insane.

However, considering the code and the intricate system (to me its fine), I just gave it up. Not likely to have them work on it, more importantly, to have them work on it and bug free. Considering the time they took to fix the enchantment spells, I prefer to leave it alone, rather than running to have a chance that get metamagic system screwed for months.:p

MysticTheurge
06-10-2007, 10:42 PM
Mystic has Cleric healing spells listed under spontaneous in his OP.

Yes, those would be the "7 specific cleric spells" Gimpster mentions. Normal cleric spells use the normal system, Cleric's pre-memorized healing spells would have to use whatever system is in place for Spontaneous Casting.


... massive advantage.

I'd rather not have this devolve into a rant on the relative merits of Wizards vs. Sorcerers.

With specific regard to the system, yes it would give sorcerers a bit more flexibility with their metamagics. However, if you implemented "full round" casting times on spontaneously metamagic'd spells, that'd certainly go a long way to balancing it out (as it does in D&D). Likewise, you have to recognize that wizards get 3 (soon to be 4) more metamagic feats than sorcerers do. That means that wizards are already a step up in the metamagic arena.


Playing on Elite, you wind up using metamagic on at the very least 50% of your spells, if not more.

And consider just how many SPs you're wasting by doing that.


I can use heighten on nearly every spell I want in the current system and overall it doesn't cause any problems for me due to overuse of SP.

Heighten is the odd man out here, because it actually charges spell points in line with the D&D metamagic system, which is to say, it simply heightens it to the highest level possible and then charges for a spell of that spell level. Every single other metamagic feat costs significantly more in the current system than it would under the proposed system.


And there'd be no reason I wouldn't just want everything automatically heightened to L7.

You might not mind everything being heightened automatically, but there are plenty of clerics who do. Likewise there are plenty of things I don't want extended (Hold Person, Greater Command) and others that people don't want empowered/maximized (Finger of Death)


Under this proposal, that would be impossible and it would seriously reduce the number of functional spells in game.

Yes, it would be impossible. But maybe you don't really need to heighten everything to that level. Maybe having some of those spells have a DC that's one or two (or three) points lower isn't such a big deal. Maybe, if there weren't casters running around with heighten on all the time then enemies wouldn't have saving throw bonuses that were quite so high.


I honestly believe, this system would only serve to hamstring casters even further at the endgame.

Whereas I think being able to cast 133% (or more) as many spells between rest shrines would do a lot to allow them additional usefulness and flexibility. I mean, having an incredibly wide variety of spells memorized doesn't do you that much good when you're spending 100+ spell points on one spell, or you're paying an extra 3-13 spell points for every single buff you cast (and so on).

Out of curiosity, what spells do you usually memorize now? And what would your spell lineup look like under the proposed system?

grizzly_ruin
06-10-2007, 11:02 PM
And consider just how many SPs you're wasting by doing that.

That's an issue with the power of spells vs. the power of items at endgame.

Not using metamagics on those spells, would just see those spells go unused.




You might not mind everything being heightened automatically, but there are plenty of clerics who do. Likewise there are plenty of things I don't want extended (Hold Person, Greater Command) and others that people don't want empowered/maximized (Finger of Death)

Which is why I'm all for setting up which metamagics affect which spells with some form of a lock system.

I am not however up for a system that will force me to lose higher level slots to use lower level metamagic enhanced spells, since so many of them need to use metamagics to be effective.




Yes, it would be impossible. But maybe you don't really need to heighten everything to that level. Maybe having some of those spells have a DC that's one or two (or three) points lower isn't such a big deal. Maybe, if there weren't casters running around with heighten on all the time then enemies wouldn't have saving throw bonuses that were quite so high.

The major problem would be the loss of the number of spells that could actually get heightened, I also save enough SP with the heighten enhancement that anything this system would add would only be negatives.

Having those spells at 2 or 3 DC lower is a big deal, otherwise casters wouldn't be heightening L4~6 spells currently. But they do, and they need to if they wish to be effective and not waste SP by casting the same spell multiple times.




Whereas I think being able to cast 133% (or more) as many spells between rest shrines would do a lot to allow them additional usefulness and flexibility. I mean, having an incredibly wide variety of spells memorized doesn't do you that much good when you're spending 100+ spell points on one spell, or you're paying an extra 3-13 spell points for every single buff you cast (and so on).

In the case of Heighten, there would be no gain of 133%.

Any gain of SP would see me casting only the spells that have metamagics as those would be the only ones that are effective.

That would reduce my flexibility, and reduce my power.

What it would do is allow me to cast more of the metamagic'd spells more often, effectively pushing a wizard further into the realm of a weak sorcerer.

Which is to say, hammering away with more uses of the same spells.

Quicken and Enlarge are more of "irregular case troubleshooting" metamagics.

Empower and Maximize are the only ones where people spend 100+ spell points on a spell. And they only usually do that when it's pretty much "all or nothing" on a boss or some such.

If you wanted to propose a system where the base direct damage spells have a higher output and then you can only empower OR maximize, that would be beneficial.

This is not PnP, the nature of this game is frequent, repetitive combat.

Metamagics are not used in DDO the way they are used in PnP and they exist in the DDO game environment which is solely combat oriented. Trying to wrap the PnP system around them would only do a disservice to casters IMO.



Out of curiosity, what spells do you usually memorize now? And what would your spell lineup look like under the proposed system?

That I'll have to get back to you on, need to head out to work.

Qwanderer
06-10-2007, 11:36 PM
Okay, so I play two different caster types. A cleric and wizard, and both of them often suffer from wasted SP in the middle of battles due to unwanted Meta-magic combinations. I don't really want to extend my hold monster, but I like extend for my charm monster. I like to maximize blade barrier, but hate maximizing cure serious wounds. The list is extensive.

So my thoughts on this proposal:

I love the notion of being able to select specific spells to apply meta-magic feats to. This would solve any problems I would ever have with the metamagic system. It would completely eliminate any wasted SP on meta-magic feats I didn't want to use or didn't have time to toggle off in the middle of a heated combat. This would ideally be implemented as separate hotbar shortcuts in the spell selection tab.

I love the idea of being able to save SP by basing the cost of using meta-magic feats by adjusting the spell point cost based on the new effective level of the spell. A maximized magic missile spell would cost the same ammount of SP as a 4th level spell instead of triple the base SP cost. At higher levels, this would mean a very large difference in SP costs.

I dislike the restriction that certain metamagic spell selections would limit my higher level spell slots. Somtimes I like to heighten and extend enchantment spells, and the current way the heighten feat works would make using heighten and any other metamagic feats impossible. Not only that, but it would severely limit my enchantment build wizard who basically heightens pretty much every crowd control spell to maximum level. So I could have a heightened hypnotism but I would lose out on a 7th level slot doing so? Seems far too limiting in this kind of game environment and I think it would further reduce the variety of spells we see used in game. There would be alot more cookie cutter spell lists than ever before and expectations of wizards would be further increased. I don't want some fighter telling me I shouldn't be using FoD because he can't get his greater Heroism extended.

I think the best idea would be to implement a new meta-magic system that allowed SP costs of spells to be higher than the actual level of spells you are currently able to cast. So if you maximized and empowered a spell like chain lightning it would cost you the base SP price of an 11th level spell instead of what we are paying for it now. (I believe that would be 60 SP instead of 140 SP.) This doesn't really break any of the current DDO rules since we've always been able to get spells that normally shouldn't be able to exist in PnP but I don't really see it as much of an issue. Perhaps the base spell point costs for spells above 9th could be exponentially raised higher and higher to help balance this.

MysticTheurge
06-11-2007, 07:32 AM
Somtimes I like to heighten and extend enchantment spells, and the current way the heighten feat works would make using heighten and any other metamagic feats impossible.

Actually, the proposed system uses a slightly different variation on Heighten. You'd be able to heighten things to whatever degree you want to.

So suppose we're looking at a second level spell. Extended that spell gets converted to a third level spell. You can then heighten it from a third level spell to a 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th level spell using heighten for a +1 to +4 bonus on the save DC.

Talias006
06-11-2007, 07:41 AM
...Which is why I'm all for setting up which metamagics affect which spells with some form of a lock system.

I am not however up for a system that will force me to lose higher level slots to use lower level metamagic enhanced spells, since so many of them need to use metamagics to be effective...

Um, the system you would want, the lock system, would probably have limits for the metamagic you wanted to add to certain spells, such as being only able to Maximize a certain level of spells, or Extend, or whatever. Unless you're thinking the system needs to be redesigned so that a caster can just click whichever meta-feat they want to have applied to a given spell, which might have more than a single meta-feat able to enhance said spell.
Meh, I'm beyond tired at this point but still can't sleep, so if my logic seems, well illogical, you know why. :D

Mad_Bombardier
06-11-2007, 10:03 AM
MT, I realized upon seeing your spell list example why this system would never work. I can't Maximize my BladeBarrier until level 15! :eek: And can't Extend/Maximize it until level 17! :eek: :eek:

Sorry, that's the nail in the coffin. Nuh-uh, no way, forget it. :mad: Don't go messing with a dwarf's Blade Barrier. :p

Solik
06-11-2007, 10:27 AM
Yes to reducing the costs. Metamagic should have added costs, not multiplied costs.

Yes to maxing the level. You should not be able to apply metamagic to make a spell a higher level than you can actually cast.

No to changing from a stance to memorizing specific spells. If for no other reason, hotbars for casters are just plain stupid in terms of the number needed; let's not add more icons. You can leave it as a stance while still changing the costs and limiting the max level of the spell that you can apply the metamagic to.

grizzly_ruin
06-11-2007, 11:06 AM
snip... Unless you're thinking the system needs to be redesigned so that a caster can just click whichever meta-feat they want to have applied to a given spell, which might have more than a single meta-feat able to enhance said spell.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking.

However, what I think would be sufficient is to just make metamagics instant on/instant off.



Also, a system like this would certainly result it people have a wider variety of spell lists built. Currently, one of the things that's odd about DDO is that people pretty much build a list and stick with it, and across different characters those lists can tend to be pretty similar. A system like this would certainly mix things up a bit more.

I wanted to comment this as I had missed it the first time I read through the thread.

The part of the quote in red is true. The rest I disagree with completely.

People build lists and stick with it because of the nature of the game, pure combat.

Once you get to a certain level, you figure out which spells work and which spells are pointless.

A system like this, rather than mix things up as you put it, would see a reduction in the number of spells people actually use not an increase.

This system might make sense for your character, but from your own statement you only seem to use extend. For Sorcerers and Wizards, we pretty much exist on our metamagic feats or the few spells that have no saving throw.




Out of curiosity, what spells do you usually memorize now? And what would your spell lineup look like under the proposed system?


Empower EM : Maximize MX : Extend EX : Heighten HT

Any metamagic that is italicized means the use is situational. Example Extend EX.

Otherwise, assume that the attatched metamagics are always used with the corresponding spell.

A few notes.

In the current system, Heighten is a casters best friend. You get a great discount if you have the Enhancement for it and basically allows you to continue using lower level spells that would probably see little to no use without heighten.

I occaisionally have uses for Quicken and Enlarge, however use of those metamagic feats would actually become non-existant under the new system as their use is totally situational.

I usually just use Maximize, however I occaisionally used both Empower and Maximize depending on the situation. Recently I find myself Extending quite a few Walls of Fire so sometimes I can't spare the SP for Max or Empower.

That being said, I don't cast that many direct damage spells beyond Scorching Ray, Wall of Fire and the odd handful of Magic Missles. Any other direct damage spells you see listed are generally used when the **** has hit the fan, or against mobs with an elemental weakness.

Since Maximize takes 3 spell slots higher, I would probably be forced to drop it. We just don't have enough L5+ spell slots yet.


"alts" refers to alternate spells that see sporadic use depending on the quest.


My current general spell list

L1: Hypnotism HT / Jump EX / Magic Missle MX EM / Ray of Enfeeblement / Shield EX
alts: Niac's against Velah (hardly needed anymore)


L2: Blur EX / Otto's Dance HT / Resist Energy EX / Scorching Ray MX EM/ Web HT EX
alts: False Life (soloing only) / Glitterdust HT / Hypnotic Pattern HT EX


L3: Displacement EX / Fireball MX / Haste EX / Suggestion HT EX/ Prot: Energy
alts: Halt Undead HT (used rarely, only if a quest has mindless undead) / Hold Person HT(for quests with persons)


L4: Dimension Door / PK HT / Solid Fog EX / StoneskinEX / Wall of Fire EX MX EM
alts: Fear HT / Enervation - these are rarely used since the above spells are pretty much memd 100% of the time


L5: CK HT EX / Cone of Cold MX / Hold Monster HT / Mind Fog HT
alts: Teleport


L6: Flesh to Stone / Greater Heroism / Mass Suggestion EX HT
alts: Disintigrate


L7: Finger of Death / Waves of Exhaustion
alts: Otto's Sphere EX / Control Undead


It's a bit late here, I don't have time to work out my spell list under the new system, if I have time tomorrow I'll give it a shot.

As you can see however a change like the one you are suggesting would be another large hit to CC type casters (My build's primary focus).

Stanley_Nicholas
06-11-2007, 11:33 AM
Effectively having more spellpoints would be a big plus for this proposed system. However, I think what it mainly comes down to is bringing metamagic more in line with P&P, while bringing spells farther out of line (in a manner which makes them less effective) with the monsters we use them on.

Having fewer high level spells available, and no longer being able to max/empower fireball, disintegrate, delayed blast fireball, not being able to extend otto's sphere (as a sorc/wiz), etc., would be too big a nerf to casters IMO if the monsters were left unchanged. And they can't change the monsters sufficiently without nerfing down the melee classes, which would mean massive changes all around. More in line with P&P, possibly better for the long term (debatable; not that I want to), but it would likely require a huge amount of effort and introduce who knows how many new bugs.

Frankly, I think we would be better served with a simple toolbar locking mechanism, and letting the devs focus the rest of their attention on fixing old bugs and adding new content.

Edit: Maybe a better option still for the environment we're already in would be to simply adjust the number of spellpoints metamagic feats consume, by making the spell cost an amount equal to the level the metamagic raises the spell to. So instead of the current system where extending a spell increases the cost by 50% and raises blade barrier from 35 to 53 spellpoints, we would have the cost raised by 2 levels from 35 to 45. This much is akin to MT's proposal, but I suggest that the changes stop there and not limit spell slots or the level of the spell to which you can apply a given metamagic feat, for the reasons I described before the edit.

Mourning_Star
06-11-2007, 11:54 AM
the current system is fine and easy to understand, your suggestion makes people think and takes some of the fun out of casting

That's the problem with the vast majority of ddo casters, they don't think!!
Being a caster in D&D is THE most difficult class to learn and play successfully. Playing a caster is all about playing smart and utilizing your spells in the most effective way.

I think MT is dead-on with the proposal to bring meta-magic feats in line with pnp and I would love to see it implemented.

Jorval
06-11-2007, 12:36 PM
My current general spell list

L1: Hypnotism HT / Jump EX / Magic Missle MX EM / Ray of Enfeeblement / Shield EX
alts: Niac's against Velah (hardly needed anymore)


L2: Blur EX / Otto's Dance HT / Resist Energy EX / Scorching Ray MX EM/ Web HT EX
alts: False Life (soloing only) / Glitterdust HT / Hypnotic Pattern HT EX


L3: Displacement EX / Fireball MX / Haste EX / Suggestion HT EX/ Prot: Energy
alts: Halt Undead HT (used rarely, only if a quest has mindless undead) / Hold Person HT(for quests with persons)


L4: Dimension Door / PK HT / Solid Fog EX / StoneskinEX / Wall of Fire EX MX EM
alts: Fear HT / Enervation - these are rarely used since the above spells are pretty much memd 100% of the time


L5: CK HT EX / Cone of Cold MX / Hold Monster HT / Mind Fog HT
alts: Teleport


L6: Flesh to Stone / Greater Heroism / Mass Suggestion EX HT
alts: Disintigrate


L7: Finger of Death / Waves of Exhaustion
alts: Otto's Sphere EX / Control Undead


Taking this spell list and prioritizing it according to how my caster does it, which may or may not be right for him, this is what he'd look like.

L1: Ray of Enfeeblement, Hypnotism, MM, Niac's Cold Ray, Chill Touch
L2: Extended Jump, Extended Shield, Ottos Dance, Web, Glitterdust
L3: Extended Blur, Extended Resist, Protection from Energy, Fireball, Suggestion
L4: Stoneskin, Extended Displacement, Extended Haste, Dimension Door, Solid Fog
L5: Maximized Scorching Ray, Extended Wall of Fire, Hold Monster, Cone of Cold
L6: Extended Cloudkill, Flesh to Stone, Greater Heroism
L7: Finger of Death, Waves of Fatigue

He ends up not Empowering anything at any time.
He ends up not Heightening anything at any time.
He drops the spells Mass Suggestion and Mind Fog from his list.
He can't Maximize Fireball.
He picks up the spells Niac's Cold Ray, Chill Touch, and Glitterdust.

Wow, the first two alone are huge, and probably enough to offset any mana increase by having to cast the spells over and over to cause the same damage or to get them to stick. The third one doesn't hurt me, but I'm sure it would the OP. If he's a nuker, he won't like the fourth one. The fifth is a benefit, but not Heightening Glitterdust makes it iffy pick up.

At the VERY least, it's going to make Wizards spend a LOT more time changing their spells out for particular dungeons to come up with the optimized set of spells for that particular dungeon, a good thing if you like PnP because that's what you do, but a bad thing if you're into fast paced gaming.

It's also going to make CC spells much harder to land and cause damage spells to take DPS hits because you have to cast more in a single fight to do the same damage. You may have the mana to do it, but you certainly won't be able to do it as fast. This means more deaths, wipes, longer dungeon times, etc. You're going to segregate casters into "buffers" and "nukers" even more because of the need to be able to Empower/Maximize spells and drop Extended bufs in their place.

I'll leave it up to you all to decide, I like my Rogue/Ranger much more than my caster anyway. :)

Draiden
06-11-2007, 01:33 PM
Well thought, MT. I've given the idea time and evaluated several scenarios. Kinda short on time, though, as I'm between classes so I'll give you my 2 cents instead of the full dollar.

Your proposition kinda steps casters backwards a level or two in potency. yes, I know scorching ray could be max/emp'd, but heightened/max'd/emp'd lvl 6 and 7 spells can be a lot more effective. Although I agree that nuke-type spells do need to be fixed, and the MM costs seem a bit much right now. And having fewer spell slots just adds to the difficulty. I would reconsider my view on a sorta hybrid situation, however. (ie. Wizards having this option, but sorc's not... or any caster type simply having the option to work in the MM feats either way.) Overall, though, I see this as more of a nerf than anything.

Also, since you're the community's knowledge base... why don't the dev's scale the MM'd spell cost as per PnP? Meaning, if heightening a spell in PnP would require a spell slot higher than the base, shouldn't it cost (in DDO) the base amount of 1 spell lvl higher? In other words, if I heightened a magic missle, shouldn't it cost 15sp as opposed to 10? ... or a heightened Fire Wall cost of 30 sp as opposed to 25 base? Using this method, MM feats are suddenly quite valuable and no changes need to be made to spell damage to bring them in line.

Yes, the MM enhancements need to be reworked, but you're talking about implementing an entirely new system which would require a ton of changes in several areas. The current system is great, really. Just needs some fine-tuning.

One great point I saw above which I didn't quote on this reply was the idea of having a 2nd pop-up window with all the MM options available (similar to the resist energy window). Great idea! That pretty much alleviates the time required to 'toggle on, cast, toggle off, cast'.

MysticTheurge
06-11-2007, 03:33 PM
No to changing from a stance to memorizing specific spells. If for no other reason, hotbars for casters are just plain stupid in terms of the number needed; let's not add more icons.

Oddly enough this is one of the things I was thinking about when tossing around the ideas for this system. Since every spell, metamagic'd or not, goes into a slot casters would actually be guaranteed to have fewer hotbar icons under the proposed system than under the current system. And massively fewer than you'd have under any kind of "Metamagic Sets" system where you can combine spells and feats on the fly to create an expontentially-increasing number of possibilities (regular Niac's, empowered Niac's, maximized Niac's, enlarged Niac's, heightened Niac's, empowered and enlarged Niac's, empowered and maximized Niac's, empowered and heightened Niac's, maximized and enlarged Niac's, maximized and heightened Niac's, and so on).

grizzly_ruin
06-11-2007, 08:33 PM
Oddly enough this is one of the things I was thinking about when tossing around the ideas for this system. Since every spell, metamagic'd or not, goes into a slot casters would actually be guaranteed to have fewer hotbar icons under the proposed system than under the current system. And massively fewer than you'd have under any kind of "Metamagic Sets" system where you can combine spells and feats on the fly to create an expontentially-increasing number of possibilities (regular Niac's, empowered Niac's, maximized Niac's, enlarged Niac's, heightened Niac's, empowered and enlarged Niac's, empowered and maximized Niac's, empowered and heightened Niac's, maximized and enlarged Niac's, maximized and heightened Niac's, and so on).

I had an idea about that.

Instead of turning on all the metamagics for each spell, or instead of making metamagic hotbars:

1) Turn on/Turn off of Metamagic is instant
2) Each spell icon has a "metamagic block" menu.

So you right click a spell, drop down menu of all your metamagic feats appears.

You click the ones you don't wan't to affect the spell in question.

Casters keep the flexibility to use metamagics on the fly, and they no longer have to worry about casting a heightened fireball or an empowered/maximized Finger of Death.

Honestly looking at my spell list I have no idea what I would do to change to the new system. It would definitely make the extra metamagic feats of a Wizard relatively pointless.

For one thing, try casting any level 5 spell and under without heighten in an Elite quest and you'll see that it's pretty much all or nothing when it comes to those spells. (all or nothing meaning either you heighten it, or you just don't use it)

A change like the one you proposed MT would probably be the nail in the coffin for me with DDO.

Tija
06-11-2007, 10:31 PM
I like the Idea of a drop down for the meta magic, but I also like the idea of being able to heighten spells up multiple levels.

So what my alternative would be is to treat spells like weapon slots in your inventory, but on your toolbar with a twist.

Lets call them metaslots ;)

Niac at 1st lvl = 1 metaslot
Niac at 3rd lvl = 2 metaslots
Niac at 5th lvl = 3 metaslots
Niac at 7th lvl = 4 metaslots
Niac at 9rd lvl = 5 metaslots
Niac at 11th lvl = 6 metaslots

Probably should be a maximum number which I would probably set to the current number of meta feats (6)

Allow stacking of metamagics so if i want to at 11th level I can have a Niac that has a DC of +6 (6x heighten)

If Max/Emp can be stacked (not sure about this) the dmg modifer may need to be looked at, maybe add 1-2dice extra damage per slot taken

Possibly even take it a bit further and allow 2 weapons to be added as well. Casting times would have the take into account the weapon change as well (unless its already in your hand).

Solik
06-12-2007, 10:48 AM
Oddly enough this is one of the things I was thinking about when tossing around the ideas for this system. Since every spell, metamagic'd or not, goes into a slot casters would actually be guaranteed to have fewer hotbar icons under the proposed system than under the current system.
This is only true if you switch out your hotbarred spells every time you change your spell selection. I prefer to leave my "common" spells on my hotbar, even when they're not prepared, for two reasons. One, it keeps me from having to continually change my hotbars every time I play with my spell choices. Two, and more importantly, I get used to where on my hotbars specific spells are. This is important for quick and accurate clicking, and even more important for keyboard shortcuts.

If you have to prepare the spell with metamagic applied, then in order to leave the spells on the hotbars, you'd need to place more spells there to accommodate metamagicked versions of other spells.

I think the stance method is simply easier. It's also a power boon to casters, who sort of need it.

KristovK
06-12-2007, 11:03 AM
In PnP the concept works ok because you don't generally use metamagics on spells at lower levels anywhere near as often as we do in DDO, usually because it's not needed(damage for spells fits in PnP as opposed to DDO). It's a system designed for how PnP scales spells with levels and CRs of mobs, which we all know DDO doesn't do, a system where a caster gets no where near the spellcasting power they do in DDO. Take a 14th wiz with a 22 Int(that's high for 14th in PnP ya know). Said Wiz would get 6 1st, 6 2nd, 5 3rd, 5 4th, 4 5th, 4 6th and 2 7th level spells per day when you include the bonus spells for the 22 Int. That's all per 24 hour period.... Can't use metamagic on the 7th level at all, and using metamagic on any 6th or 5th level take up those 2 7th level slots and so on. Not a big deal in PnP, you've got a LOT more spells to pick from, and you don't need to do more then extend some, maybe empower a few low level damage spells(magic missile springs to mind). Metamagic doesn't get abused like it does in DDO, not until epic levels at least :) Of course, then you get into the Epic spells, which are a whole other catagory...

For DDO, the current system of metamagic works well. Don't blame the system for people not paying attention and wasting sp's casting heightened Cure spells or Empowered Finger of Death, that's a USER problem, not a software problem or a game system problem. I know I can't possibly be the only person who plays casters, both divine and arcane, who's always aware of exactly what metamagics I've got enabled before I go clicking on icons or pushing buttons. Yes, it does indeed cost more sp's with the system DDO uses then how it costs in the PnP system..but by the same token, we can cast a whole hells of a lot more spells per level then can be done in PnP, so we still come out ahead in that respect in DDO. 14th PnP Wiz, as noted above, can cast a grand total of 715 spell points worth of spells per 24 hours. My own 14th wiz in DDO has 1330 sp at the moment, almost 2x that amount..and that's without using a tome on his Int or having a Wiz5/6 item(giving the PnP Wiz the same 28 int my DDO Wiz has STILL leaves the PnP Wiz well short of spell casting power, 1 1st, 1 5th and 1 7th extra per day, 80 more sp in DDO terms).

Sorry, the way DDO works, your idea of using the PnP metamagic system just doesn't work and would seriously **** off the players who already whine about how nerfed they are now as it is. Can you imagine how people would react if they were told that they could only cast an emp/max'd magic missile IF they gave up a 6th level slot for that(2 level bump for emp, 3 for max), and they can't emp/max a fireball or anything over 2nd level for that matter. 14th level Wiz has 3 7th level slots..that's it, and having to give up even 1 in order to max/empower a Scorching Ray? And Sorcs..well..I really can't see them taking well to that at all :)

FlyinS
06-12-2007, 11:30 AM
Issue: Spontaneous Casters. Bards, Sorcerers and Cleric-Healing-Spells are not "memorized" like other spells, and so this system can't work the same way for those casters (and spells). An alternative method of applying metamagics to known spells for spontaneous casting, would have to be worked out. Theoretically, it could be as simple as having a set-up that automatically "memorizes" any possible application of your spells known-metamagic combinations. Thus, a sorcerer with empower would have icons on his list for any empowerable spell he knows set at the appropriate level/cost. You might also need to increase the casting time (as per the D&D rules) and/or cooldown on these metamagic'd spells to maintain appropriate balance.

Thoughts?

I'll start of by saying I admit I have not read the entire thread.

I definitely think Metamagic needs to be reevaluated, and I was thinking along the lines of what (I think) you are eluding to here. I'll use Magic Missle as an example with the Empower feat. I can have the MM in my hotbar as per normal, but I can also add in an icon for an Empowered Magic Missle as a separate hotbar item. It could have the little metamagic icon up in the corner so you know it's the Empowered one. On your spell list page you could have separate slots, much like weapon sets, where you can add in the spell and then add in the metamagic feats you want applied to it. The drawback I can see right off the bat to this is that hotbars are very filled for a lot of people as it is.

Spookydodger
06-12-2007, 11:36 AM
Ok, call be crazy, but I'm going to throw a proposal out there and just see what everyone has to say about it....

I also think that this would be problematic since many enhancements are in-place to lower the cost (Theoretically) of metamagic enhancements in order to make their use more attractive (and in my opinion, necessary, as the base damage of spells just doesn't cut it in most fights).

I would rather see either shortcuts able to incorporate metamagic feats, or more preferably:

I would rather see metamagic feats have no "on-time". IE it's instant, like a Paladin lay-on-hands.

Then allow buttons on the keyboard allowed to be used for metamagic temp-toggles. Like how blocking works. I press shift, I block while I hold it, or shield bash when I attack.

If I hold down the Control key, any spell I click on/cast will be enhanced by Empower (or whatever I set in my bindings).

I think this would make caster playing more dynamic and keep more in the spirit of the spell-point system while still working for true "spontaneous casters".

MysticTheurge
06-12-2007, 04:32 PM
In PnP the concept works ok because you don't generally use metamagics on spells at lower levels anywhere near as often as we do in DDO, usually because it's not needed(damage for spells fits in PnP as opposed to DDO). It's a system designed for how PnP scales spells with levels and CRs of mobs, which we all know DDO doesn't do...

This was actually a concern that partially led me to this system. The fact is, that currently, to be anywhere near comparable to the effects in D&D, a DDO spell needs to be Empowered and/or Maximized. But you're paying a huge premium to do so. Essentially cutting back people's ability to empower/maximize spells willy-nilly would highlight the damage problem even more. Right now, any time a wizard complains about the relative ineffectiveness of direct damage spells, someone comes back with a "I can get eleventy-billion damage from my scorching rays/disintegrates/etc. You're just gimped." When in fact, they don't mention the fact that they can only cast such a spell about 12 times per shrine (provided they cast nothing else). Not only would the proposed system save you spell point on your metamagic'd spells, it would highlight how worthless a plain old fireball's 45 hit points of damage is, and that even with enhancements and items for it you're still only talking 85 points of damage. Compared to the NPCs hundreds and hundreds (and sometimes thousands) of hit points that's not even a drop in the bucket.


For DDO, the current system of metamagic works well. Don't blame the system for people not paying attention and wasting sp's casting heightened Cure spells or Empowered Finger of Death, that's a USER problem, not a software problem or a game system problem.

Simply put, this is entirely untrue. The current system has flaws that make this happen. Activating a "metamagic stance" isn't instant, meaning it's (super-)beneficial to leave them on as much as possible. I shouldn't have to constantly be switching extend on and off, and wasting 2-3 possibly crucial seconds each time, because I want my buffs extended but my offensive spells not extended. That's a game design problem.


14th PnP Wiz, as noted above, can cast a grand total of 715 spell points worth of spells per 24 hours. My own 14th wiz in DDO has 1330 sp at the moment, almost 2x that amount

You're comparing numbers that aren't entirely comparable.

A D&D wizard of 14th level gets 555 "spell points" from his base spells.
A DDO wizard gets 680.

A D&D wizard of 14th level gets 335 "spell points" for a 30 intelligence.
A DDO wizard gets 230.

A D&D wizard can get a virtually unlimited number of spell points from Pearls of Power and up to 280 from wizardry items.
A DDO wizard can get 175 from wizardry items.

A DDO wizard can also add in another 140 from enhancements and 150 from feats.

But even so you're looking at totals of 1170 (discounting Pearls of Power) for the D&D wizard vs. 1375 for the DDO wizard. That's hardly a stunning advantage, and certainly not enough to make up for the fact that we face more than double the number of encounters per rest shrine, that nearly all the enemies we face are at CR that matches or exceeds our level (ruining a fair number of valuable HD-capped spells), that everything has 5-10x as many hit points, and that metamagics are far more expensive.


Can you imagine how people would react if they were told that they could only cast an emp/max'd magic missile IF they gave up a 6th level slot for that(2 level bump for emp, 3 for max), and they can't emp/max a fireball or anything over 2nd level for that matter. 14th level Wiz has 3 7th level slots..that's it, and having to give up even 1 in order to max/empower a Scorching Ray?

I prefer not to include "Would people whine about it" in my decision making process, since people whine about every change.


And Sorcs..well..I really can't see them taking well to that at all :)

As previously stated, spontaneous casters require some other system to use metamagics, since they don't "memorize" their spells.

grizzly_ruin
06-12-2007, 06:19 PM
This was actually a concern that partially led me to this system. The fact is, that currently, to be anywhere near comparable to the effects in D&D, a DDO spell needs to be Empowered and/or Maximized. But you're paying a huge premium to do so. Essentially cutting back people's ability to empower/maximize spells willy-nilly would highlight the damage problem even more.

And the system would also pretty much cripple casters in nealy every other aspect. A prospect I do not look forward to.

Honestly, if the Devs are so blind as to not be able to calculate the base damage of a spell vs. Mob HPs (all of which they obviously have access to), then the situation is for all intents and purposes hopeless.

They know exactly how minescule our base damage output is.

They have aribtrarily decided that dong straight out DPS is "The melee role"

It's also mostly true in PnP that blast casters are nowhere near as powerful as other types of casters in PnP, I'm going to assume that you of all people understand that in the upper levels in PnP it's the Will & Fort saves that matter.

The being said, all spell damage output across the board is effectively and utterly gimped on any setting but normal.

The main problem is that melee damage actually scales to Elite and once you reach Elite DPS as a melee you're set (and totally overpowered on any setting that is not Elite)

Casters simply never have that option with their damage spells.




Right now, any time a wizard complains about the relative ineffectiveness of direct damage spells, someone comes back with a "I can get eleventy-billion damage from my scorching rays/disintegrates/etc. You're just gimped." When in fact, they don't mention the fact that they can only cast such a spell about 12 times per shrine (provided they cast nothing else).

They also never mention if they are calculating all of the damage from an AoE like CoC or that they scored a bunch of crits with their Scroching Ray and they were casting against an element weak mob.

Still I really don't think the devs are going by the one or two random meatheads that are claiming Zeus like damage.




Not only would the proposed system save you spell point on your metamagic'd spells, it would highlight how worthless a plain old fireball's 45 hit points of damage is, and that even with enhancements and items for it you're still only talking 85 points of damage. Compared to the NPCs hundreds and hundreds (and sometimes thousands) of hit points that's not even a drop in the bucket.


1) The Devs already know what our base damage is.

2) The Devs already know how many HPs mobs have in comparison.

3) The proposed system would only save SP on direct damage spells (a very important point) if they increased the base damage of our spells by double or triple.

4) The proposed system would not save me or any other caster who is not a blast mage any SP as we rarely, if ever, cast direct damage spells and trying to use unheightended versions of spells L5 and lower would only see you casting mutliple times losing precious tme in combat and expending more SP from multiple casts.

What this proposed system would do is totally ruin non blast casters in any setting but normal.




The current system has flaws that make this happen. Activating a "metamagic stance" isn't instant, meaning it's (super-)beneficial to leave them on as much as possible.

So why rework the entire system into two sepearate systems, one for Sorcerers and Cleric healing spells and one for Everyone else? Just make metamagic feats instant on off.


As I've said before that's entirely too cumbersome, and the rest of the spells will suffer for the change as the Devs show absolutely no sign of toning mobs down in the slightest. No their reaction is to give a select few class/races more hit points!!!

And before anyone mentions that if we weren't running around with heighten on all the time they *might* lower saves, keep in mind that quite a few melee Feats that can be enhanced and stack with item bonuses as well as attribute bonuses work off of the same saving throws.

And I don't see any of those going anywhere soon. Especially the weapons.

And in mentionng weapons, keep in mind that Banishers, Paralyzers and Disrupters work off of the same saves. So while they are becoming more common they are becoming weaker as mobs get tougher with higher saves.

Lowering mob saves once again sees these weapons as powerful as they were back in the old days of the L10 cap, when if you had one of these in the right quest you were a god.




I shouldn't have to constantly be switching extend on and off, and wasting 2-3 possibly crucial seconds each time, because I want my buffs extended but my offensive spells not extended. That's a game design problem.

I have to say Mystic, I'm having a hard time believing that Extend of all feats is giving you issues.

Are you really doing that much extended buffing on and off repeatedly in combat?

My Wizard runs with no less than 6 metamagic feats that I use in different situations and I don't really seem to have a problem.

My Cleric has never once had a problem with extend, ever. Uneccesarily Empowering "Heal" is another matter entirely.





But even so you're looking at totals of 1170 (discounting Pearls of Power) for the D&D wizard vs. 1375 for the DDO wizard. That's hardly a stunning advantage, and certainly not enough to make up for the fact that we face more than double the number of encounters per rest shrine, that nearly all the enemies we face are at CR that matches or exceeds our level (ruining a fair number of valuable HD-capped spells), that everything has 5-10x as many hit points, and that metamagics are far more expensive.

This is really what I wish you were championing.

Alavatar
06-12-2007, 07:47 PM
I both like and dislike MT concept.

However, what about this? Make it so you right click on the toolbar icon and select what metamagics you want to affect that spell. And maintain PnP metamagic implementation (i.e. increase the SP cost via level based system instead of multiplicative and have level limitations in that FoD cannot be Empowered).

Harbinder
06-12-2007, 08:06 PM
I don't like this idea if it's not broke don't fix it!

MysticTheurge
06-12-2007, 08:43 PM
This is really what I wish you were championing.

Been there, done that. ;)

(On a more serious note, I may take a bit in the future to re-examine spell points post-SP-change and see where we stand. I haven't gotten to play a whole lot since 4.2, but I'm inclined to say it's good, but not really enough.)

KristovK
06-12-2007, 10:38 PM
You're comparing numbers that aren't entirely comparable.

A D&D wizard of 14th level gets 555 "spell points" from his base spells.
A DDO wizard gets 680.

A D&D wizard of 14th level gets 335 "spell points" for a 30 intelligence.
A DDO wizard gets 230.

A D&D wizard can get a virtually unlimited number of spell points from Pearls of Power and up to 280 from wizardry items.
A DDO wizard can get 175 from wizardry items.

A DDO wizard can also add in another 140 from enhancements and 150 from feats.

But even so you're looking at totals of 1170 (discounting Pearls of Power) for the D&D wizard vs. 1375 for the DDO wizard. That's hardly a stunning advantage, and certainly not enough to make up for the fact that we face more than double the number of encounters per rest shrine, that nearly all the enemies we face are at CR that matches or exceeds our level (ruining a fair number of valuable HD-capped spells), that everything has 5-10x as many hit points, and that metamagics are far more expensive.


And here is the problem MT, you are comparing a DDO Wiz with a 30 Int with a PnP Wiz, and at 14th level that PnP Wiz is NOT going to have a 30 Int unless it's some exotic race like Rakshasa or Illithyd. 22 Int would be it for any race besides Drow and that would require an Int item. At 14th level, the numbers I give ARE what a PnP Wiz has in spell power compared to a DDO Wiz, 715 compared to 1330, and that is a huge difference. PnP Wiz won't be hitting a 30 Int until 21+ levels, and we're hitting that in DDO at 12th IF you aren't a Drow and haven't used a +2 tome, which would put you at 32 or higher...at 12th level. Huge difference there in the spell power by points or by ability, no PnP Wiz is going to achieve the DCs on their spells we do in DDO either(not that they seem to matter a whole hells of a lot most of the time). More spells per day and higher DCs, that's what we get in DDO, double the spells and usually +1-3 on the DCs for the PnP counterpart of the same level.

Yes, the mobs are inflated on HPs, we all know that, the devs have stated it flat out. HD aren't inflated, they match the CRs of the mobs, but that's hard to tell when an 8HD mob has over 300 hp. Saves are difficult to figure, sometimes it seems the mobs have saves that are correct for their base HD, other times it is all too clear that their saves are way and beyond anything for their HD, and I'm talking about Normal settings on this, NOT Elite, in which HDs are bumped up as well as inflated hps being inflated even more and saves being totally torqued out of anything recognizable. But this is all just a rehash of what's been known since the game was in beta.

The interface isn't difficult to use or difficult to understand and the metamagic stances are not the cause of the problem with people wasting SP. That's simply people being people. And you can't actually fix that, no matter how you try, people WILL be people. I don't waste sp on meta's that I don't want active, it's obvious they are active on the hotbars and when you mouse over a hotbarred spell, it shows the costs if a meta is active and works with said spell. The Compendium here even gives a list of the spells and which meta's work with them. People STILL ignore these factors and then complain about 'wasting sp's because of metamagics'. Sorry if it takes a precious moment of zerg time to click that icon, but that's a PEBKAC, not a UI problem. I see Sorcs and Wizs all the time who are zerging ahead of the party, clerics and bards too, spamming their spells left and right in order to get that holy grail of kill counts. These are the people who are typically wasting sp using meta's that aren't needed, NOT the only ones, but the majority. Then there's the people who simply can't keep up with the fast paced action in the game and don't take a moment to check what's going on with their own hotbars. And you can't 'fix' either of these situations.

Now, that said, I would like to see the meta's be an instant on instead of taking the few seconds they currently take. They are already instant off, so there's no problem there, but being instant on would be nice. Of course, people would still waste sp casting cures and heals with heighten or FoD with emp/max and so on, but again, that's PEOPLE being people, not a UI or system issue.

MysticTheurge
06-12-2007, 11:06 PM
And here is the problem MT, you are comparing a DDO Wiz with a 30 Int with a PnP Wiz, and at 14th level that PnP Wiz is NOT going to have a 30 Int unless it's some exotic race like Rakshasa or Illithyd. 22 Int would be it for any race besides Drow and that would require an Int item.

I challenge this assertion.

Assuming you started at 18 intelligence (because you're playing in a min/max heavy campaign and because your DM gave you all a 32-point buy). You're looking at a 21 intelligence just from your starting score and your level-increases combined. So 22 hardly seems that much of a stretch for anyone.

If we also assume that you're playing with a Monty Haul DM, which we clearly are, as a wizard you're going to have, at the very least, a +6 int item (keeping in mind that, if no other opportunities present themselves, you can craft yourself one of these), and let's say a +2 tome. That's up to 29. It'll be 30 if you happen across a +3 tome or as soon as you level up to 15th.

30 intelligence is absolutely not out of the question for a D&D character of non-epic levels.

(This is without going into the question of Staffs, which any wizard over about 10th level would be crazy to not acquire, and which make a huge difference in his ability to contribute. Or Rods which can make a pretty big difference too. Or, again, the fact that D&D Pearls of Power don't have a 1-per-customer limit on them. Or the fact that Rings of Spell Storing don't either. Or the fact that you can make wands and scrolls with higher caster level spells on them. And so on...)


HD aren't inflated, they match the CRs of the mobs, but that's hard to tell when an 8HD mob has over 300 hp.

Yes, I've often argued this myself. HD do match the CRs on creatures, that's all well and good.

Except we don't have the EL system implemented. In D&D an EL 10 can be 1 CR 10 creature or a bunch of lower CR creatures and it's only in the latter type that HD-capped spells really do you any good. In DDO though, in a level 10 quest, you're going to face a whole bunch of CR 10 enemies all at once. You're rarely (if ever) going to face a whole bunch of CR 6s at once to make an EL 10. This has pretty big ramifications, beyond just HD-capped spells, including the relative uselessness of AoE damaging spells, which you're also far more likely to use against larger groups of lower CR creatures.

And then there's the fact that the Devs aren't entirely following the advancement rules, in that they're advancing stuff by HD that shouldn't be advanced by HD, or further than it should be advanced by HD, and that's causing some of these problems too.

grizzly_ruin
06-13-2007, 02:20 AM
My current general spell list

L1: Hypnotism HT / Jump EX / Magic Missle MX EM / Ray of Enfeeblement / Shield EX
alts: Niac's against Velah (hardly needed anymore)


L2: Blur EX / Otto's Dance HT / Resist Energy EX / Scorching Ray MX EM/ Web HT EX
alts: False Life (soloing only) / Glitterdust HT / Hypnotic Pattern HT EX


L3: Displacement EX / Fireball MX / Haste EX / Suggestion HT EX/ Prot: Energy
alts: Halt Undead HT (used rarely, only if a quest has mindless undead) / Hold Person HT(for quests with persons)


L4: Dimension Door / PK HT / Solid Fog EX / StoneskinEX / Wall of Fire EX MX EM
alts: Fear HT / Enervation - these are rarely used since the above spells are pretty much memd 100% of the time


L5: CK HT EX / Cone of Cold MX / Hold Monster HT / Mind Fog HT
alts: Teleport


L6: Flesh to Stone / Greater Heroism / Mass Suggestion EX HT
alts: Disintigrate


L7: Finger of Death / Waves of Exhaustion
alts: Otto's Sphere EX / Control Undead



My spell list in MT's proposed system.

L1: ? / ? / ? / Ray of Enfeeblement / Shield
Losses: Extend on Shield, MX on Magic Missle, 3 open spell slots with no functionall spells to put there


L2: False Life / Hypnotic Pattern (effectively filler) / Glitterdust (effectively filler) / Jump EX / Web (effectively filler)
alts:
Losses: HT EX on Web, Otto's Dance, HT on Glitterdust


L3: Displacement / Magic Missle EM / Blur EX / Resist Energy EX / Prot: Energy
Losses: Fireball, Extend on Displacement, Suggestion


L4: Dimension Door / Haste EX / Solid Fog / Stoneskin / Wall of Fire
alts: Fear HT / Enervation - these are rarely used since the above spells are pretty much memd 100% of the time
Losses: Extend on Solid Fog, Extend on Stoneskin, Extend Empower/Maximize on Wall of Fire


L5: CK / Scorching Ray MX / Hypnotism HT / Mind Fog
alts: Teleport
Losses: Cone of Cold,


L6: Flesh to Stone / Hold Monster HT / Mass Suggestion
alts: Disintigrate
Losses: Greater Herosim


L7: Finger of Death / PK HT
alts: Otto's Sphere / Control Undead
Losses: Waves of Exhaustion


Awful.

The only reason I bothered keeping some of the lower level unheightended will based spells were:

A) Nothing else to put there
B) At least they're AoE, so you may get lucky here or there

If you take a good look you'll notice I'm getting 1 use from Empower and 1 use from Maximize.

Raithe
06-13-2007, 03:33 AM
Some comments:

A) I have a sorceror (enchantress 13sorc/1bard). I get by in DDO right now using about 14 spells.

1-Hypnotism
2-Extended Jump
3-Maximized Scorching Ray
4-Web
5-Otto's Resistable Dance
6-Extended Elemental Resists
7-Elemental Protects
8-Extended Haste
9-Extended Displacement
10-Stoneskin
11-Maximized Wall of Fire
12-Charm Monster
13-Hold Monster
14-Flesh to Stone

And with this rather modest list of spells, I actually function within a party as a mage in high level elite content. Many of you will say that I've gimped myself by taking a bard level and that I'm not a "real" caster that goes around casting heightened PK and FoD on everything. I can only assure everyone that I get along just fine (Example Formula: [Hold Monster + 3 DC + Crippling Light Crossbow of Puncturing] > Heightened PK).

So, assuming I get by (and I do) with only 14 spells on high level elite content, I think it's safe to say that the proposal presented in this thread is certainly viable for a wizard, who gets more than double that amount of slots to fill.


B) About the power of casters versus melee. The developers of DDO want melee to actually participate in the game. Which is why they have done all of the following:

1-Resisted inflating caster damage values in correlation with melee damage values. Caster's get occasional "crits" that do proportionate damage, but these are infrequent enough to keep a melee system viable.

2-Kept the number of lower powered creatures (with high quantities) in dungeons to a complete rarity. Off the top of my head, the Stormcleave kobolds are the only examples of this occurring that I can think of.

3-Resisted inflating the number of spell points a caster has to correlate with the massively increased number of encounters between shrines. This attitude is corroborated by their removal of the Ring of Spell Storing, and the fact that rest shrines are still a single use per quest instance.

The funny thing is, after all that hard work to keep melee viable, they still failed to keep casters from completely dominating the game. I personally don't think they fully fathomed the reality of what compressed timelines, compressed geography, combat centricity, and metagame preknowledge does for a typical D&D spellcaster.


C) I think the proposal as presented here would be fine. In a way it simplifies the utilization of spells while making it significantly more complex to set up. If you don't mind waiting for the wizard at the beginning of every quest, I think casters would have more fun - they would get to cast more often with more precisely tailored spells (not so much waste) and would probably wind up being more effective than what I see in game. (And what I read in threads like these... arg.)

Yaga_Nub
06-13-2007, 06:57 AM
Hey MT, instead of this system, why not just keep working on them to fix the way the current meta-magic feats work. We know the math is wrong, they know the math is wrong so keep posting about that (like you did for the spell points) and eventually they'll cave in to your well-thought, non-offensive posts and change the feats to do the correct math.

I know you'll say that you've been doing that but I haven't seen one of those posts in about 6 months so maybe it's time to write one again.

MysticTheurge
06-13-2007, 07:38 AM
Hey MT, instead of this system, why not just keep working on them to fix the way the current meta-magic feats work. We know the math is wrong, they know the math is wrong so keep posting about that (like you did for the spell points) and eventually they'll cave in to your well-thought, non-offensive posts and change the feats to do the correct math.

I can't, in good conscience, suggest a system that takes all the benefits of the D&D metamagic system (same end results, cheaper costs, perfect control) and none of it's limitations (longer casting times for spontaneously metamagic'd spells, caps on total spell level, metamagic'd spells filling higher slots).

Honestly, when you consider the fact that every metamagic'd spell we cast right now is, essentially, spontaneously metamagic'd the 2 second delay to turn on a metamagic feat is in keeping with the D&D rules. The only thing that would be more appropriate would be if there was a 2 second delay on every spell that you cast with the feat turned on.

I'd love to see the metamagic system get some much needed fixes (like cheaper costs and more control), but it seems to me that the system, as it stands now, isn't underpowered or anything. As such, to propose increasing the benefits, I also have to look at where the other necessary changes (i.e. "nerfs") would have to come. The OP represents my best assessment of the differences between DDO metamagic and D&D metamagic and how to implement a system more like the latter in DDO.

grizzly_ruin
06-13-2007, 08:07 AM
And with this rather modest list of spells, I actually function within a party as a mage in high level elite content. Many of you will say that I've gimped myself by taking a bard level and that I'm not a "real" caster...

Bard 1/Sorc13 is easily a legitimate build. I don't think anyone here would say you're not a real caster.

And though your spell list is that of a 14th level Sorcerer, you are also getting quite a nice SP boost from your Bard level.

You also have access to a nearly unresistable SP free mez ability.



Example Formula: [Hold Monster + 3 DC + Crippling Light Crossbow of Puncturing] > Heightened PK]

My formula is Heightened PK & Hold Monster + DW Crippling/Puncturing weapons ;)




So, assuming I get by (and I do) with only 14 spells on high level elite content, I think it's safe to say that the proposal presented in this thread is certainly viable for a wizard, who gets more than double that amount of slots to fill.

The thing is, I chose to play a Wizard exactly so i wouldn't have to "get by" with a small spell list.

I wanted full access to all spells.

I also don't have access to your significantly larger spell point pool from being both a sorcerer and the extra SP boost from your bard level.

That means I need to make every spell count if possible, even more so than the average sorcerer. I can't just hammer away with the same spell multiple times, because I'll blow through my SP way to fast.

I'm also usually in charge of buffs, since I like the cleric to retain his SP for Heals, Resurrection and other restorative measures as well as Greater Command, which is easly the single best anti melee mob AoE CC in the game.






C) I think the proposal as presented here would be fine. In a way it simplifies the utilization of spells while making it significantly more complex to set up.

I don't mind the complexity of the in quest use of metamagics. That's part of the allure of playing a caster for me.

It's why I also enjoyed playing a bard back in EQ1.

That kind of game play is the most appealing to me.

I'm not totally opposed to a more complex set up, but people are impatient enough in this game without a Wizard saying "I'm going to need about 5-10 minutes to sort out my spells guys" before the start of every quest.

Especially since most quests don't really require more than a spell swap or two.



they would get to cast more often with more precisely tailored spells (not so much waste) and would probably wind up being more effective than what I see in game. (And what I read in threads like these... arg.)

I already tailor my spells to the quests and I tailor my metamagics to the encounter.

I'm also going to be double casting all of my buffs as they are no longer extended.

I'm not sure who you are reffering to as "wasting" or not being effective, but you're more than welcome to come to Mabar and group with me to check out my gameplay.

I doubt you'll find much waste or ineffectiveness on my part. ;)



Some other comments.

This proposal is attempting to wrap a metmagic system designed around Vancian magic in a game that does not use Vancian magic.

In pen and paper with Vancian magic, I wouldn't "lose" those 1st level spell slots like in my previous post, because:

A) I'd have other spells from a larger spell list to put there.
B) I could just take a bunch of regular magic missles to fill in the gaps.
C) The situation would be totally different since my spell list would not be geared totally towards combat to the exclusion of all else.

That being said I've always hated the Vancian magic system. (Blasphemy, I know:p )

And have long preferred more spontaneous magic systems like in Rifts or Shadow run.

KristovK
06-13-2007, 08:42 AM
I don't play with Monty Haul DMs, totally ruins the game, and we actually use dice to create characters(we're old fashioned). At 14th level, you won't have a +3 stat boosting item and you won't have all the other goodies so common in DDO. That's how most PnP games should be, how every one I've spent the last 30+ years playing have been outside of the occasional 'lets play demi-gods' weekends where you just go nuts and realize half an hour into it why that's not how you play all the time, it's pointless and no fun.

The PnP metamagic system works because it's all balanced, spells do damage comensurate with level of the caster and the level of the mobs being faced. 3d6 fireballs at 5th level KILL the majority of what you'll come up against, mobs don't have 100 hp but only 2+2HD. Magic Missile at level 1 KILLS most kobolds with a single casting. And so on.

Now, in DDO, we've got kobolds that are .5 CR with 50 hp and we've got 10 CR mobs with close to 1000hp(sometimes more), and then we've got Elite setting mobs who are just obscene. A 14th level Wiz has 3 7th level slots per rest, which means using metamagics would preclude the majority of the spells that a Wiz can use being meta'd, which would make the Wiz little more then a buffbot with the occasional insta-kill spell or crowd control spell ready. It was mentioned that the PnP system would give Wiz's more tailored spell selections, time would have to be spent prepping for each dungeon and would make it more fun for a Wiz. Sorry, that's pure bs, this system would mean a Wiz would have 1 or 2 spells that were of any offensive use and the rest would be buff spells for the tanks(which is what many arcane caster players already claim is the case..it's not, but that's how they ALREADY feel about the game). Arcane casters in DDO have more pure power then their PnP counterparts but they do not perform the same. A 10d6 fireball in PnP at level 14 is awesome, it'll drop most mobs you'll face. In DDO...it's a good way for an arcane caster to **** off a large group of mobs and get themselves killed and that's about all. Even emp+max fireballs in DDO in 14th level dungeons..hells lets be truthful, in 8th level dungeons, are worthless for actually killing anything unless you spam them. And this system wouldn't allow that to be done. Emp OR Max would be the option, and that would require using a 5th or 6th level spell slot. And who would bother with using metamagic in this situation? The only way to cast an emp+max fireball would be to use an 8th level spell slot. Sorcs may THINK this system would good for them since their metamagic usage works differently...but even that would depend on how it was worked for them to use meta's with this new system. After all, in PnP, if they decide to cast a spell meta'd, they have to use a higher level spell per day for the meta'd spell's new level...which means one less higher level spell per day to use....not to mention a much longer casting time for the meta'd spell. DDO doesn't do spells per day per level, we've got spells per level with X sp's per rest. Can't just go and make a Sorc's meta'd spells take a little longer to caster and still make the balance work when Wiz's have to give up a higher level spell slot to meta one of their spells, especially since a Sorc is supposed to do the same thing, albeit in a different manner...a higher level spell per day is given up either way. And since Sorcs get less spells per level per day then Wizs do...can you honestly see any Sorcs bothering with metamagics? Me, personally, with this kind of system and DDO's sp mechanic and inflated mob hp's...my Wiz would drop all metamagics taken with non-Wiz specific feats and wouldn't use anything but Extend, and that would only be for self buffing. His other feats would be combat related, so he could swing a weapon, after all, his spells would be pretty damn pointless for the most part outside of level appropiate crowd control and higher level insta-kill spells. I'd probably just re-roll him as an Eldritch Knight build, 1 or 2 levels of wiz and fighter or barb on out from there, self buff and wand/scroll usage for combat, wouldn't be much point in being a pure arcane caster with this system implemented.

Solik
06-13-2007, 10:42 AM
I can't, in good conscience, suggest a system that takes all the benefits of the D&D metamagic system (same end results, cheaper costs, perfect control) and none of it's limitations (longer casting times for spontaneously metamagic'd spells, caps on total spell level, metamagic'd spells filling higher slots).
For what it's worth, sorcerers can give up their familiar to gain the ability to apply metamagic without increasing casting times. And last I checked, DDO sorcerers didn't have familiars :) If you also consider DDO's limited spell selection and less effectiveness against monsters (primarily due to much-higher CR monsters in quests than we should be facing at our levels, which is really where the HD problem comes in strong), I don't see any problem scrapping the spells-filling-higher-slots thing. Remember, we're working in an SP system here, so increasing the SP cost is sort of like filling a higher slot. Halfway anyways.


At 14th level, you won't have a +3 stat boosting item and you won't have all the other goodies so common in DDO.
Then you don't merely have a DM that isn't Monty Haul. You have a DM that's going directly against the D&D rules.

An Amulet of Health +4 is valued at 16k. It should be trivial to purchase, find, or craft such an item well before 14th. Frankly, you should have a +6 item (valued at only 36k).


The PnP metamagic system works
Actually, it doesn't, at least in Core. Standard metamagic feats are pretty pitiful. To make metamagic work in PnP, you should be using rods (absent in DDO) or alternate class features in splatbooks (see my comments to MT).

I'm not even going to touch the monster paragraph that follows...

Xaxx
06-13-2007, 12:30 PM
how often does this have to be smashed through some peoples heads

YOU CANNOT IMPLIMENT DND PNP IN A PC GAME AND EXPECT IT TO WORK.

MT you need to understand this one simple fact.

Solik
06-13-2007, 12:39 PM
MT didn't deserve that. His motivation isn't merely "make it work like PNP because PNP is awesome," and he has described ways to make it work.

squiddaddy
06-13-2007, 12:56 PM
The first mistake being made here, like in all the other 10,000 whinge posts on this and similar subjects is that memorised spells in PnP and DDO are equivalent. They simply are not.

Memorised spells in PnP are a resource, in DDO they represent selection, while spell points represent resource. This is why we can safely ignore all the sorc vs wizard PnP vs DDO comparisons, The current DDO spellcasting system already mirrors the D&D casting class concepts.

What the OP proposes is changing metamagic from a resource cost (as they are in PnP and current DDO) to a combined resource and selection cost. Not good considering the general idea of the OP seems to be about flexibility.

There also seems to be this idea written between the lines that the OP takes as a given. That is that metamagic costs too much.
I don't believe this for a second. They could cost twice as much and still be good. Simply because casters aren't about kill counts or efficiency, they are about alpha strikes. fighters kill 100 orcs 5 at a time, thats their job. casters kill that group of 20 that you couldn't otherwise defeat, they kill that super boss man in 2 rounds because if he lasts 5 you're toast.
This is the purpose of offensive spellcasters in general (along with adding strategic options), in both PnP and DDO. Metamagic in DDO enhances that ability. Which is a good thing no?

Yes the way we currently use metamagic feats is messy, but that is 100% interface, 0% system related.

Raithe
06-13-2007, 01:42 PM
There also seems to be this idea written between the lines that the OP takes as a given. That is that metamagic costs too much.
I don't believe this for a second. They could cost twice as much and still be good. Simply because casters aren't about kill counts or efficiency, they are about alpha strikes. fighters kill 100 orcs 5 at a time, thats their job. casters kill that group of 20 that you couldn't otherwise defeat, they kill that super boss man in 2 rounds because if he lasts 5 you're toast.
This is the purpose of offensive spellcasters in general (along with adding strategic options), in both PnP and DDO. Metamagic in DDO enhances that ability. Which is a good thing no?


I don't really have a huge crush on the metamagic rewrite proposal, but I do have a definite problem with the way the game is being painted in your post here. I may be starting to like the proposal better simply because it may adversely affect mind-numbing gameplay as you have depicted.

Basically, according to your post, a melee's job is to go around and kill all the "little guys" (which several people have already made note that very few such "little guys" are actually developed into quests) and a mage's job is to sit around picking his nose until something happens that requires him to start waving his hands around. This is not how it should work.

Mages should be involved throughout the entire quest. In my opinion, their forte is making sure all the "little encounters" go as smoothly and efficiently as possible so that when it comes time to hit the big baddies, everyone is in a decent enough state to do so. Very few boss encounters can actually be soloed by a mage efficiently. Usually it works best to have a healer in the party who still has at least a quarter of his mana bar for the final battle. Making melee take the full punishment (especially in Gianthold) of combat until the final battle is pretty much going to ensure your healer is going to have to recall out before that fight, or be unable to restore anyone who gets damaged (or use massive amounts of platinum on scrolls and wands).

This proposal is the finesse route. It will make nuking the big boss a little harder (bye bye maximized wall of fire), but make running the front part of the quest less mana-intensive and more fun for casters. It's at least an upgrade to the style of questing you've presented.

Solik
06-13-2007, 03:38 PM
Multipliers on SP costs will continue to get worse as spell levels increase. The difference between a level 8 spell cost and a level 9 spell cost is significantly different than the difference between level 8 base and level 8 + 50%.

GramercyRiff
06-13-2007, 03:59 PM
I think just being able to toolbar spells with it metemagicked would be a hundred times better then now.

This is the way to do it. MT doesn't have a bad alternative, but you're just gonna anger people by changing to your proposal.

Please just give us ways to put metamagicked spells in hotbars, giving us a choice to cast the meta'ed or normal version of the spell.

MysticTheurge
06-13-2007, 04:51 PM
That's how most PnP games should be

No. That's how you play D&D. It is not how "D&D Should Be" because for the most part there isn't a way "D&D Should Be."


MT didn't deserve that.

Eh, I'm used to it by now. I just ignore comments like that. ;)


This is the way to do it. MT doesn't have a bad alternative, but you're just gonna anger people by changing to your proposal.

Please just give us ways to put metamagicked spells in hotbars, giving us a choice to cast the meta'ed or normal version of the spell.

I have to admit, after looking at grizzly ruin's list of potential spells, that this system might end up just being too restrictive (or at least to much of a change) to be implemented with any real effectiveness. I think I'm leaning toward an alternative kind of like this:

I memorize my spells as I would do now.

On that same screen, any possible metamagic combinations of spells show up at the appropriate level-adjusted spell level it would be using the D&D spell-level increases (in place of the DDO SP cost increase in %s). Thus, if I have extend, every extendable spell I have memorized shows up as an extended icon one level higher. (For an alternative UI, have a separate "page" for each metamagic, or metamagic combination, that shows the spells of the appropriate levels.)

I can then select any icon from that screen and drag it to my hotbar to get the metamagic'd version of the spell.

This "compromise" edition of the original proposal has the SP-savings and customization benefits of the OP as well as the spell-level-capping limitation, but it removes the slot-based limitations on number of metamagic'd spells per level.

So you could still, if you wanted, Heighten all your spells to "7th" level. You could Empower all your spells of 5th level or lower, you could Maximize all your 4th level and lower spells, and so on. There are no restrictions on how many spells you can metamagic, just limitations on which ones a given feat (or set of feats) can be applied to. In exchange for this you get some pretty significant SP savings and the ability to mix-and-match your metamagics and spells as you wish.

MysticTheurge
06-13-2007, 05:45 PM
Something kind of like this (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/CJGMURPG/pics/alternatemetamagic.jpg).

You'd need something to make it work for multi-metamagic'd spells, since it's a squeeze to get one on there and make it fit, but that's the general idea.

KristovK
06-13-2007, 09:46 PM
Solik, metamagic in PnP works fine, there's simply a cost associated with it. Yes there are magic items that can remove that cost, but that doesn't mean the system is broken, it means that people don't like paying the cost. As for being able to have an item worth X gp per level, that does NOT mean you should have said item, it's simply a rule to govern DMs so they don't give players items that are too powerful for their level, ruining game balance in the process. Great example of this...DDO...nuff said. Oh..and as for Sorcs giving up their familiars to gain meta's without the level bumps or extra sp cost in DDO...sure, I'm all for that, provided we get familiars first...what book is that in anyway, it's not in the SRD.

As for the costs of metamagics getting to be too high once we hit 8th and 9th level..well...that's somewhat true, the costs will get higher. But by the system MT proposes, you couldn't meta ANY 9th level spell, and you'd be rather restricted on which meta's you could use with 8th level spells, extend, heighten, enlarge..that's about it. With the DDO system, we'll be able to use any meta or combination of metas with 8th and 9th level spells. Given the current trend in DDO with inflated hps on mobs, they'll probably be required on 8th and 9th level spells that inflict damage. Considering that most of the 8/9 level spells that do damage are 1d6/level...yeah...right.

grizzly_ruin
06-14-2007, 08:11 AM
I memorize my spells as I would do now.

On that same screen, any possible metamagic combinations of spells show up at the appropriate level-adjusted spell level it would be using the D&D spell-level increases (in place of the DDO SP cost increase in %s). Thus, if I have extend, every extendable spell I have memorized shows up as an extended icon one level higher. (For an alternative UI, have a separate "page" for each metamagic, or metamagic combination, that shows the spells of the appropriate levels.)

I can then select any icon from that screen and drag it to my hotbar to get the metamagic'd version of the spell.

This "compromise" edition of the original proposal has the SP-savings and customization benefits of the OP as well as the spell-level-capping limitation, but it removes the slot-based limitations on number of metamagic'd spells per level.

So you could still, if you wanted, Heighten all your spells to "7th" level. You could Empower all your spells of 5th level or lower, you could Maximize all your 4th level and lower spells, and so on. There are no restrictions on how many spells you can metamagic, just limitations on which ones a given feat (or set of feats) can be applied to. In exchange for this you get some pretty significant SP savings and the ability to mix-and-match your metamagics and spells as you wish.


It's an interesting idea.

I wonder how it would interact with the current enhancements.

Magic Missle + Empower + Maximize = L6 Spell @ 35 SP

Both enhancments = -40% SP discount = 21 SP (effectively a L3 spell)

Scorching Ray + Empower + Maximize = L7 Spell @ 40SP

Both Enhancements = -40% SP discount = 24 (effectively a L4 spell)

Well that would certainly give blast mages a significant boost. Would be quite frightening on a Sorcerer.

I think the enhancements would have to re-evaluated in this system.

It would also revert us back to using lower level damage spells over higher level ones due to Sp to Damage output efficiency, which is something the Devs seemed to want to change.

Solik
06-14-2007, 12:32 PM
So, basically you want the inverse of what we have now, MT? Take the slot but not the SP, as opposed to take the SP and not the slot?

I think I like taking SP better, as it allows for more diverse spell selections. DDO doesn't have enough low-level spells for very many to be worth slotting at higher levels without metamagic. You're not gonna be slotting a bunch of Identifies and whatnot.

MysticTheurge
06-14-2007, 05:00 PM
I think the enhancements would have to re-evaluated in this system.

Without a doubt.


So, basically you want the inverse of what we have now, MT? Take the slot but not the SP, as opposed to take the SP and not the slot?

Uh, not since this page (though that was sort of the original proposal). Under the most recent proposal, you memorize your standard set of spells just like you would under the normal system. But then any possible metamagic versions would be available as well, just like now, except with the added stipulation that you can't metamagic something past a 7th level spell (at least not until we get 8th level spells and so on). In exchange for this added limitation, the costs are reduced to be in line with the D&D costs (which is to say, additive +5 SPs per spell level increase, instead of multiplicative, +some percentage of the original spell costs).

MysticTheurge
06-14-2007, 05:03 PM
As for the costs of metamagics getting to be too high once we hit 8th and 9th level..well...that's somewhat true, the costs will get higher. But by the system MT proposes, you couldn't meta ANY 9th level spell, and you'd be rather restricted on which meta's you could use with 8th level spells, extend, heighten, enlarge..that's about it.

I had a thought about this as well.

You can't, obviously, do this in D&D either, unless you have the right feat. There's an epic feat that gives you an additional spell slot of a given pseudo-spell level past 9th. You can get "10th" level spell slots and "11th" and so on, but since there are not real spells of those levels the only use for them is to metamagic high level spells into them.

It seems to me the easiest way to translate this to DDO would be a line of feats that give you access to the entire theoretical spell level. So I take the epic feat "Extra Spell Level" and I get access to metamagic-spell combinations which would be "10th" level, meaning I could heighten my 9th level spells and empower my 8th level spells and so on. You could then take it again to get "11th" "12th" and so on.

Principe
06-14-2007, 10:39 PM
The current system uses something close to PnP's metamagic rule for sorcerors - you apply the metamagic on the fly.

This proposal here would change it to something closer to PnP's metamagic rule for wizards.

This proposal would greatly restrict variety of spells cast: Current system gives you x spells known, then doubled for each metagic known. This system gives you only x spells known.

This proposal would be very difficult to swallow as a sorceror who is already highly restricted in spell choices.

MysticTheurge
06-14-2007, 10:44 PM
This proposal would be very difficult to swallow as a sorceror who is already highly restricted in spell choices.

You'll notice I never suggested using a wizard-like system for sorcerers, even under the original proposal. The revised proposal (from here on this last page) is probably what would have to have been used for sorcerers, even if wizards got the original system.

Tija
06-15-2007, 12:51 AM
Wouldnt something like this be a bit eaiser for turbine to implement (drag/drop metafeats)?

http://s204.photobucket.com/albums/bb292/tija_photos/Untitled-1.png

slots = (spell level + 1) + 1 per spell level able to cast above the spells level

in the case of the pic a wiz(5)/clr(9) was used.

This way your not really have to rework anything in the spell book.
Low level spells become useful again (heighten * 5 on a web for example)
Low level spell slots are still useful (not memorising at a different level)
You may be able to leave the current system in place with not to much tweaking.
Opens the way to combine spells/items/metas in one hotbar iconthoughts?

KristovK
06-15-2007, 05:28 AM
I had a thought about this as well.

You can't, obviously, do this in D&D either, unless you have the right feat. There's an epic feat that gives you an additional spell slot of a given pseudo-spell level past 9th. You can get "10th" level spell slots and "11th" and so on, but since there are not real spells of those levels the only use for them is to metamagic high level spells into them.

It seems to me the easiest way to translate this to DDO would be a line of feats that give you access to the entire theoretical spell level. So I take the epic feat "Extra Spell Level" and I get access to metamagic-spell combinations which would be "10th" level, meaning I could heighten my 9th level spells and empower my 8th level spells and so on. You could then take it again to get "11th" "12th" and so on.

Yes, that's an option I thought about as well MT, but we'd not get those feats until 21+, meaning a bit of a gap in spell power and the mobs as you level been 15th and 21. And you'd only get 1 extra slot at 10th level with the first feat at 21st, wouldn't get another for a few more levels, meaning we'd be in the upper 20s before we could use anything beyond Extend, Heighten or Enlarge on 9th level spells. Again, with the disparty in mob hps, not a good way to go.

ONE way this could work would be if they gave us the extra spell slots per level we're supposed to get for the stat bonus. Then using higher level slots for meta'd spells wouldn't hurt as much, but with the limits placed on spell slots as it stands...nope.

MysticTheurge
06-15-2007, 06:44 AM
Wouldnt something like this be a bit eaiser for turbine to implement (drag/drop metafeats)?

....

thoughts?

Hmm, I like this too, though I'm not sure which would be easier to implement. This adds a whole new set of functionality to the hotbar, while my proposal simply adds another (set of) page(s) to the spellbook. Either way the principle is the same and I'm starting to like it more and more.


Yes, that's an option I thought about as well MT, but we'd not get those feats until 21+, meaning a bit of a gap in spell power and the mobs as you level been 15th and 21.

Well, there'd be a little gap between 17, when you get 9th level spells, and 21, when you could get 10th level spells, but it's not that odd, especially since you're adding some additional 8th and 9th level slots at those levels. (It'd be like saying there's a power gap at every even level where you don't get a new level of spells.)


And you'd only get 1 extra slot at 10th level with the first feat at 21st, wouldn't get another for a few more levels, meaning we'd be in the upper 20s before we could use anything beyond Extend, Heighten or Enlarge on 9th level spells.

The way I envisioned it, you're not using "slots" at this point. You don't get a "10th level slot" so much as you're just able to metamagic spells up to 10th level, meaning you could do it with all your spells. You could extend all your 9th level spells, empower all your 8th level spells, maximize all your 7th level spells, etc.

And each new version of the feat would be another level, meaning you could get 10th level access at 21, 11th (empowered 9th level spells) at 23, 12th (maximized 9th level spells) at 24, 13th at 26, 14th at 27, (and so on).

(Don't forget epic levels give additional bonus feats. Wiz/Sorcs get them at 23rd and every three levels thereafter.)

grizzly_ruin
06-15-2007, 06:56 AM
You can't, obviously, do this in D&D either, unless you have the right feat. There's an epic feat that gives you an additional spell slot of a given pseudo-spell level past 9th. You can get "10th" level spell slots and "11th" and so on, but since there are not real spells of those levels the only use for them is to metamagic high level spells into them.



This is the part I wasn't really sold on, the cap of metamagics on upperend spells.

I'd really rather not have to take several feats and/or wait til epic leves to metamagic my top end spells.

Your suggestion, while solid means, I won't be able to Empower & Maximize Meteor Swarm :p

To paraphprase Mad_Bombardier "Don't go messing with a wizard's Meteor Swarm.

Solik
06-15-2007, 10:52 AM
Ahh, now I see what you mean! Okay. I like that.

However, we also need to consider metamagic rods. In PNP, you can metamagic 9th level spells and such, and you do it with metamagic rods (or Sudden Metamagic feats, but that's neither here nor there).

Metamagic rods in DDO would be a little unwieldy, I think. Epic feats are far too costly for replicating this behavior.

I'd suggest enhancements that let you cast metamagicked spells above your max level a certain number of times per day (each level of the enhancement giving you one casting per rest). So, if you can cast up to 6th level spells, and you have two levels of this enhancement, then you can cast a 6th-level or lower spell with metamagic that makes it 7th level twice per rest.

MysticTheurge
06-15-2007, 03:21 PM
Metamagic rods in DDO would be a little unwieldy, I think.

Honestly, the way I'd do metamagic rods (if I were in charge of DDO) is to make them work kind of like the feats do now.

I'd make it a clicky (3/day) that lasts for say 10-15 seconds and applies the metamagic feat in the rod to any spell you cast during that time with no additional SP costs.

Yes, you might get 2 or 3 spells off in that time period, but you might also get none (if, say, you fail your concentration checks). I think it's a pretty fair implementation of the item under the DDO system.

(Oh, and I like your enhancement idea, though it might be a little too powerful for enhancements.)

Solik
06-15-2007, 03:25 PM
The enhancements could be a "way of" line, or a 2-4-6 advancement. They could even be split by metamagic feat, so you'd have a line for maximize, etc.

Not a bad idea for the rods really.

MysticTheurge
06-15-2007, 03:30 PM
The enhancements could be a "way of" line, or a 2-4-6 advancement. They could even be split by metamagic feat, so you'd have a line for maximize, etc.

Hmm, yeah, splitting them up by feat would probably keep them from being too overpowered, though heighten might still be pushing it. But maybe you don't offer an enhancement for heighten, just like extend doesn't have an SP-reducing one.

EspyLacopa
06-21-2007, 12:13 PM
I've got my own proposal for a revamp of the spell system:

Stop using spell points! Let's get into how I'd do it, while keeping the ability to cast far more spells between shrines:

The basic is that it's the spell slot system from PnP D&D, from the slots gained per level to the bonus slots due to high spellcasting stat, only each slot instead of being a single cast, be say. . .X casts of the spell. Where "X" could be 3, 5, or more, depending on how many more spells they want to give the Casters.

Now, the next part is the Cooldowns. There'd be three types:
Slot Cooldown, General Cooldown, and Quicken Cooldown.
Possibly add others depending on the spell (like they might add one for Summon spells), but otherwise, those are the three basic types.

Slot Cooldown: This is the cooldown for the spell slot itself: I'd set this to 1 minute or so, to simulate the fact that in PnP, it's only 1 use of the spell.
General Cooldown: This is the cooldown that all non-quickened spells use, and it is set such that you may cast 1 spell each round. (if cooldown starts when you start casting, it'd essentially be set to be equal to 1 combat round.)
Quicken Cooldown: This is the cooldown used for all Quickened spells. These spells will also have the same cooldown length as the General spells, these spells would activate in say, 1/10th of a second.

Now, the idea here is to simulate how the casting works in PnP: If you wish to cast 2 fireballs quickly, you'll need to use two slots. If you want to cast 4 in the space of 2 rounds, you'd need 2 slots for the General Fireball, and then another 2 for 2 Quickened Fireballs.

Sorcerers, Bards, and other potential spontaneous casters would work similarly, only for each level they'd have a number of casts per day based on B*X, where B is the base number of spells/day they get in PnP counting the bonus from high casting stat, and X would be the same as the X from above used for Wizards, Clerics, Rangers, Paladins, and such. Also, when they use any Metamagic, the casting time is automatically increased from the Standard Action to a Full Round Action(essentially doubling the casting time), and they can't use Quicken Spell metamagic at all.

What do you guys think?

skraus1
06-21-2007, 01:09 PM
Sadly, this would nerf sorcs hard, as they have very few upper level slots. In addition, your proposal doesn't take into account sudden metamagic, which were for sorcs to get around this problem. You proposal is geared toward wizards. Nukers of all stripes would be hurting as well because right now, they need to max or max empower to take things down before they die to compete at all with the melee...ad hey won't be able to do this in your proposal. I mean max empowered sorching ray would be a 7th level spell!!!! The spells are geared to be useful on pnp level mobs, not DDO crack monsters! You proposal saves sp, mostly by making people use metamagic less, and would herald the return of enchanter and necromancer supremacy. It would also free up feats for casters to take toughness and other non-spellcasting feats because many things, like heighten would become useless quickly. It would also put the end to many extended buffs, because the slots wouldn't be available. Thus cost more sp to reapply during missions.

I would interpret this as a heavy duty nerf to spell casting hitting sorcs and nukers the hardest, unless coupled with a major game overhall putting hp and saves back in line with pnp levels on which the spells themselves are based. As the overhaul is NOT going to happen, I think this is just a bad idea that would cripple spellcasters.

Solik
06-21-2007, 01:42 PM
er, nm...

EspyLacopa
06-21-2007, 03:46 PM
Sadly, this would nerf sorcs hard, as they have very few upper level slots. In addition, your proposal doesn't take into account sudden metamagic, which were for sorcs to get around this problem. You proposal is geared toward wizards. Nukers of all stripes would be hurting as well because right now, they need to max or max empower to take things down before they die to compete at all with the melee...ad hey won't be able to do this in your proposal. I mean max empowered sorching ray would be a 7th level spell!!!! The spells are geared to be useful on pnp level mobs, not DDO crack monsters! You proposal saves sp, mostly by making people use metamagic less, and would herald the return of enchanter and necromancer supremacy. It would also free up feats for casters to take toughness and other non-spellcasting feats because many things, like heighten would become useless quickly. It would also put the end to many extended buffs, because the slots wouldn't be available. Thus cost more sp to reapply during missions.

I would interpret this as a heavy duty nerf to spell casting hitting sorcs and nukers the hardest, unless coupled with a major game overhall putting hp and saves back in line with pnp levels on which the spells themselves are based. As the overhaul is NOT going to happen, I think this is just a bad idea that would cripple spellcasters.

Truth be told, a change of this magnitude (SP into Spell Slot) would outright require a rebalancing of nearly the entire game.

As for the sorcerers/bards:

Unlike Wizards/Clerics/Etc, they don't just have spell slots, they also have spells known.

Right now, all spellcasters are using a type of Spontaneous Casting: that's why the Wizards and such don't get extra slots for high intelligence. In this way, Wizards would actually be hit rather hard with this, in terms of what they can do in most basic fights.

Also, a change of this scale would likely entail a general nerfing of nearly everything, from the melees with their ascending attack bonuses, to the monsters' crazy high saves(which might be due to the ability to have all spells heightened all the time) and hp(possibly due to ascending attack bonuses of melees and the ability for arcanes to spew out maximized empowered heightened fireballs at level 10).

It would be a truely massive change. And as such, highly unlikely to ever happen. Look what happened to SWG and the NGE. . .

MysticTheurge
06-21-2007, 03:50 PM
You proposal is geared toward wizards.

Right. Which is why, right from the start, I said that spontaneous spellcasters (sorcerers, bards, clerics-casting-cure-spells) would need a different system.