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View Full Version : Trip, Stunning Blow, Sunder, etc. Explanation



Kindoki
06-03-2007, 12:14 PM
Could someone explain to me how the strategy abilities work for melee? i.e. trip, stunning blow, sunder, slicing blow, hamstring, etc. I will have to look at the list to see if I missed one, but I really want to be able to make an effective build decision regarding all of them. Thanks!

Aranticus
06-03-2007, 07:33 PM
all these are what is being called "combat feats". basically when you are close to the mob, click the hotbar-ed icon of the feat. you toon will attack the mob. when the attack is successful, the mob will have to make a check vs the DC of your combat feat. if it fails, it'll be afflicted by the feat

ie mob incoming, mob near, hit trip icon, hits mob, mob fail save, mob falls.

trip = opponent falls, requires balance check to stand
stun = opponent is stunned, critical hits for 6 seconds
sunder = opponent has reduced ac
hamstring = opponent has reduced speed
tendon slice = not sure but i think same as hamstring
slicing blow = opponent loses hp ever round

Qumil
06-04-2007, 02:37 PM
Keep in mind that all red named and purple named mobs are now immune to these two...

trip = opponent falls, requires balance check to stand
stun = opponent is stunned, critical hits for 6 seconds

Kindoki
06-04-2007, 07:07 PM
I was looking more for what helps each combat ability. Do you make a strength check or a dexterity check for trip? I can see when I use an ability, that the mob makes a save - is that a reflex save? What is the actual equation that is applied?

I do appreciate finding out what it takes for mobs to recover from the successful attack. That brings up another question - how are balance checks determined?

Thanks for the answers so far.

jaitee
06-05-2007, 05:37 AM
i believe a save for trip is dex, its the only 1 i know as i get tripped non stop in giant hold, as for balance checks, u trip, +ur mod balnce and a dice roll, but i dont know what you have to roll to get up again

vyvy3369
06-05-2007, 05:53 AM
The DCs are calculated by:
10 + {stat modifier} + {Enhancements} + {Weapon bonuses like Weighted}

There used to be some that were dex based, but I think all of those were made to no longer have a save. Stun, Trip, and Sunder at least are still Strength based.

Stun & Sunder are fort saves. Trip is a "dex/str" save - the defender uses their ability modifier for whichever stat is higher against the DC, and a 20 shouldn't automatically pass this any more. Once tripped, it's a balance check to stand back up (and like all skill checks, a 20 no longer is an automatic success). The duration on Trip seems to be right around 1 minute.

Edit: someone else asked about the DCs we faced, and based on when trip was first changed, the highest we saw was under 20 (17ish I want to say, but it's been quite a while). The Demon Queen trips are harder than that, somewhere in the mid-20s I think it was. I tried searching for a thread where we compiled all this information but it seems to have been lost to the forum depths.

Aranticus
06-05-2007, 08:24 AM
The DCs are calculated by:
10 + {stat modifier} + {Enhancements} + {Weapon bonuses like Weighted}

There used to be some that were dex based, but I think all of those were made to no longer have a save. Stun, Trip, and Sunder at least are still Strength based.

Stun & Sunder are fort saves. Trip is a "dex/str" save - the defender uses their ability modifier for whichever stat is higher against the DC, and a 20 shouldn't automatically pass this any more. Once tripped, it's a balance check to stand back up (and like all skill checks, a 20 no longer is an automatic success). The duration on Trip seems to be right around 1 minute.

Edit: someone else asked about the DCs we faced, and based on when trip was first changed, the highest we saw was under 20 (17ish I want to say, but it's been quite a while). The Demon Queen trips are harder than that, somewhere in the mid-20s I think it was. I tried searching for a thread where we compiled all this information but it seems to have been lost to the forum depths.

the 1st roll against the combat feat is a save. for saves 1 is auto fail, 20 is auto pass. for trips, the mobs can make balance checks after they have being tripped to stand up again. this check can pass on a 1 or fail on a 20.

having the improved version of the feat will add 4 to the DC,

ie imp trip = 10 + 4(imp trip) + A(str mod) + B(racial enhancement) + C(class enhancement) + D(item mob)

there are post stating that the bard song or gtr hero will help the DC but i have yet to confirm it

gserlenga
06-05-2007, 09:57 AM
A related question about trip and sunder, I have both these combat feats on my hotbar. If I activate one, then activate the other, are they both active for the length of the timer OR does activating a second one when the first one is already activated override the first one?

Aranticus
06-05-2007, 10:18 AM
A related question about trip and sunder, I have both these combat feats on my hotbar. If I activate one, then activate the other, are they both active for the length of the timer OR does activating a second one when the first one is already activated override the first one?

they have different cooldown timers

kendo
06-05-2007, 03:55 PM
A related question about trip and sunder, I have both these combat feats on my hotbar. If I activate one, then activate the other, are they both active for the length of the timer OR does activating a second one when the first one is already activated override the first one?

is this comment correct?? I didn't think trip or sunder were active for the length of the timer. I thought they were a one-shot deal. you pushed the hotbar key for trip instead of the right mouse button and that was your next attack.

the timer was just a cool down until you could use that special attack again. am I totally confused here?

Aranticus
06-05-2007, 07:14 PM
they are on shots. once u hit the trip or stun icon, you toon initiates an attack which when successful, forces the enemy to make a save. after the trip/stun are activiate, that ability may not be used until the icon is refreshed.

in short, 1 use per time, but different icons for cooldowns

xberto
06-13-2007, 12:58 AM
So the mob rolls his saving throw against what? With trip, it would be my vs my stength amd bonuses (ie improved trip), right?

What about a Sunder?

Aranticus
06-13-2007, 04:19 AM
So the mob rolls his saving throw against what? With trip, it would be my vs my stength amd bonuses (ie improved trip), right?

What about a Sunder?

i would prolly go with reflex (ie you move in such a way that the hit does not "misalign" your armor)

gserlenga
06-26-2007, 12:16 AM
Just some general questions about these active combat feats. I've got a new 32pt pure class human fighter build that is currently using improved sunder and stunning blow. I am still confused as to what the proper way to use these feats is. What I do now is to just keep imp. sunder, stunning blow, trip, and intimidate active all the time by constantly reclicking them as soon as the timer is up, is this OK? Or should I strictly target something, activate only 1 feat, and attack? What is the correct and effective way to use these feats?

Also I would like to hear from someone as to the efficacy of imp. sunder and stunning blow overall. Many in my guild suggest avoiding them and just going for all weapon focus/specialization/imp. and power crit./toughness. I've noticed that the feats work rarely with my 3rd lvl fighter even on normal, already have 1 rank in the sunder and stunning blow enhancement lines. I have been somewhat underwhelmed by their effectiveness. Am I using them wrong or are they just too nerfed? Any comments would be appreciated ;)

Heroes of the Red Dawn ; Sarlona
~Jarrett Ghostwind, human male 28pt rogue14
~Elu Greymantle, elf male 32pt fighter1/wizard13
~Jarni Haakonssen, human male 32pt fighter3

Galapas
07-06-2007, 10:16 AM
Just some general questions about these active combat feats. I've got a new 32pt pure class human fighter build that is currently using improved sunder and stunning blow. I am still confused as to what the proper way to use these feats is. What I do now is to just keep imp. sunder, stunning blow, trip, and intimidate active all the time by constantly reclicking them as soon as the timer is up, is this OK? Or should I strictly target something, activate only 1 feat, and attack? What is the correct and effective way to use these feats?

Also I would like to hear from someone as to the efficacy of imp. sunder and stunning blow overall. Many in my guild suggest avoiding them and just going for all weapon focus/specialization/imp. and power crit./toughness. I've noticed that the feats work rarely with my 3rd lvl fighter even on normal, already have 1 rank in the sunder and stunning blow enhancement lines. I have been somewhat underwhelmed by their effectiveness. Am I using them wrong or are they just too nerfed? Any comments would be appreciated ;)

Heroes of the Red Dawn ; Sarlona
~Jarrett Ghostwind, human male 28pt rogue14
~Elu Greymantle, elf male 32pt fighter1/wizard13
~Jarni Haakonssen, human male 32pt fighter3

You are using them wrong.

They are not "modes" like power attack or combat expertise. They are single attacks. What you see is a cooldown timer, not an active timer. By constantly reclicking, you are not keeping them active. In all likelihood, you are wasting actions unless something happens to be right in front of you when you click.

The way I use them is to rush up to a particularly dangerous foe, and hit trip or stunning blow. I generally keep them on the active hot bar so I can use the number keys to enact them. That way I can maneuver with the mouse. I keep intimidate, sunder trip and stunning blow on the 1-4 keys so that I can keep one finger on "w" and use another finger to use the ability.

Stunning blow eliminates foes quickly. Every hit crits on stunned mobs. Barbarians with greataxes (3x crit with 2 hand damage bonuses) love this. It is a fort save though, so it rarely works against the high HP targets you want to use it on.

Trip puts a target down. Their AC is worse when they are down and they can't act. It isn't as debilitating as stun, but it usually lasts longer.

Sunder reduces armor class. It is very useful for fighters travelling with rogues. A tripped and sundered critter that was untouchable by a rogue suddenly becomes very easy to hit.

Sunder is probably the least useful, but it seems to be the easiest to enact. My fighter who has improved trip and vertigo weapons and enhancements to aid trip seems to sunder just as well as he trips.

Galapas
07-06-2007, 10:23 AM
Speaking of stunning blow...

I notice it works better on melee types than casters. I know it says in the description that it is a fort save, but there might be a mistake, either in the code or the description. Casters have good will saves and bad fort saves, leading me to believe that the move is countered by will, not fort.

Still, I don't have a big sample size of stunning attacks yet. The casters tendency to die when it is administered, before saving or not, makes it hard to tell.

Anybody here use it enough to say definitively?

tihocan
07-06-2007, 12:27 PM
I notice it works better on melee types than casters.
I have the inverse feeling. It seems to work better on caster as far as I'm concerned.

Galapas
07-06-2007, 03:49 PM
I have the inverse feeling. It seems to work better on caster as far as I'm concerned.

That's what everyone tells me. I guess I just haven't been using it enough to see it yet.

tihocan
07-06-2007, 03:50 PM
That's what everyone tells me. I guess I just haven't been using it enough to see it yet.
Btw don't forget that some casters (like clerics) usually have good fort saves.

Kindoki
02-09-2009, 03:47 PM
This is another thread I routinely review - mainly because my memory is terrible! Please don't delete it! :D