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View Full Version : when will i be able to imp trip and stun red named bosses again?



gelgoog
05-03-2007, 04:04 PM
i used to dig getting an improved trip or stun in on a red named boss here and there before mod 4. made me feel like i made a great fighter.

now i can't trip or stun the red named bosses, i can trip stun everything else thats not red named.

the red named bosses have way too many immunities for my taste.
making end battles a damage per second ordeal is very boring.

wiz/sorc/tactic melee builds feel this slap sting harder then others.
why make any other class except a dps build?

i suspect people are gonna say the red named immunities make the game more balanced somehow......but not for me.

or people will say how i made a bad build and such......nope my toons still good.....just want them to do what they do to everything in game do to red named bosses.

just would like to see what the devs think.
was this intentional or a mistake/bug?

well, i still make my tactic builds in hope of a fix in the future.......especially with monks coming, so i suspect a fix.

/shrug

CSFurious
05-03-2007, 04:13 PM
i agree with you Turbine either unintentionally or intentionally definitely nerfed a fighter like yourself who relies on those tactics

they should make those bosses a little less "uber" so that the right build can still get a stun or trip in sometimes with a good roll

peace

Ghost_Aeon
05-03-2007, 04:31 PM
I understand the need for red boss immunities because of twinked out characters, powergamers that can one-shot things, and the spell point system that lets us spam the same spell over and over and over again. The point behind a boss is to be a challenge, often times several levels above the PC's level that require greater resources than a single person should have. While in PnP you can slay them outright with a well placed PK or Finger of Death, but in DDO, people just spam them until they land. No challenge.

Similair things exist in nearly all games, MMO's and non-MMO's the same, just probably a bit more pronounced in MMO's since you have way more people talking about it in a confined space.

While I agree that red named (bosses) should be tough, lacking any form of fair crowd control, more HP than China has citizens, while dealing the same amount out, is just plain rediculous.

CrimsonEagle
05-03-2007, 04:33 PM
They most definitely know about the issue. Couple of us earned a point trying to get an answer.

Whether it was intentional or not we do not know.

Whether they will ever address this issue with the players or not, we do not know.

Hope for the best, expect the worst. Its the best we can do.

CrimsonEagle

Hence
05-03-2007, 04:36 PM
Raise their saves...
Remove their immunities.

Not even getting a roll on your trip and stun is annoying.

Just because you could kill that Red Named Mindflayer in Shrieking Mines solo everytime with one stunning blow, does not mean it was overpowered.

MeNorel
05-03-2007, 04:49 PM
Defintely hope you get a better result than I have about getting the ranged addressed or even acknowledged.

tihocan
05-04-2007, 09:34 AM
A lot of us would love to get an answer on that point. I'm tired of trying to trip/stun a low level red name when doing a favor run, and realize that it doesn't work anymore :confused:

SockMonkey
05-04-2007, 09:43 AM
i used to dig getting an improved trip or stun in on a red named boss here and there before mod 4. made me feel like i made a great fighter.

now i can't trip or stun the red named bosses, i can trip stun everything else thats not red named.

the red named bosses have way too many immunities for my taste.
making end battles a damage per second ordeal is very boring.

wiz/sorc/tactic melee builds feel this slap sting harder then others.
why make any other class except a dps build?

i suspect people are gonna say the red named immunities make the game more balanced somehow......but not for me.

or people will say how i made a bad build and such......nope my toons still good.....just want them to do what they do to everything in game do to red named bosses.

just would like to see what the devs think.
was this intentional or a mistake/bug?

well, i still make my tactic builds in hope of a fix in the future.......especially with monks coming, so i suspect a fix.

/shrug

Yup I have a sad little dwarf. I really hope this was some how a mistake and turbine will address it as soon as they get the time to do so.

Please Turbine wont you make a sad dwarf happy again?

gelgoog
05-04-2007, 05:31 PM
you can sunder the red named bosses....hmmmm.
it looks like on most red named i can sunder them....but no trip or stun.

how bout you all?

seems more like a bug now to me, and not something turbine did to make us tactic builds angry.

i'll throw out some bug reports when i'm on next.
maybe turbine is fixing it and not gonna respond till they have a 100percent fix in place.

i just hope this fix is soon for a real problem instead of a ham being replaced or something goofy.

/shrug

Jaywade
05-04-2007, 05:36 PM
this is really a pain in the arse..... hopefully the y will fix this...can;t believe they won't even respond to this issue though

Vengenance
05-04-2007, 05:44 PM
The complete non-response on this issue is what frustrates so many of the players who love this game. How hard is it for a Dev to come on and say it's intended or no it's not intended and we're working on fixing it.

This is the same BS they pulled with repect to Evasion in heavy armor. It was an issue discussed on the boards for months and Devs were completely silent on it. Even then, all they had to say was that evasion in heavy armor is a bug that will be addressed at some point in the future.

tihocan
05-06-2007, 06:40 PM
My guess is they haven't decided yet if they want to keep it this way or revert back to the previous behavior (where trip & stun worked).
For instance, for evasion, they said they didn't take the decision until they worked on monks (which is still rather recent), and you can notice that in the meantime they were careful not to say anything about it.

I really hope it's reverted back. It was fun to be able to land these on bosses, and if some were too vulnerable (like Wiz King's boss too easy to trip), then it's just a matter of raising some stats.

Frodo_Lives
05-06-2007, 11:41 PM
There are a lot of builds that revolve around the "tactical" fighting of trip, stun, sunder line of feats/enhancements. I have been left with a very poor taste in my mouth knowing that my tactical fighter has been reduced to swing swing swing in almost every important fight.

There are feats, enhancements, and stat points put into this build for the specific purpose to trip and stun enemies. Bosses shouldn't be easy to trip or stun, but to make it not work at all is stupid.

I understand the evasion fix (although poorly handled) and even the Human Versitility fix, both of which has affected characters of mine in a negative way. However I prepared my evasion build for the posibility, and the HV fix isn't a deal breaker for me. Removing the ability to use my tactical feats against the opponents that I would need them the most with no warning, no reasons and no explainations is not what I would call reasonable, or fair.

If we are going to be screwed over (again) I for one whould like at the very least an explaination.

apollojuly
05-07-2007, 09:27 AM
Is there some kind of reference out there as to what the red-named bosses "immunities" are? Spells and weapons and tactics mentioned above. Things like that.

Jaywade
05-07-2007, 11:38 AM
red named have blanket imunties that make no sense at all, you use to be able to trip or stunn a boss now it seems you you can sunder bit not trip or stun .... weapon effects like cursespewing and destruction work, I'm guessing this is a bug and they don;t know how to chance it.....imo no mob should be 100% imune to anything...better saves ... yes ...but there should be some chance of it landing

gelgoog
05-09-2007, 03:28 PM
they did the stun and trip immunities so that we can't solo some stages?
man i just don't understand it at all.

it has affected my time playin the game.........it makes me want to NOT play the game. if that was the goal for turbine, CONGRATS!!!!! you win.

i am not rerollin another toon. i have what i have and like it, don't have time to keep rerolling.

this is a great game to play, its fun and looks great. controls really well....except for some bugs here and there. but you turbine folk need to listen to us average players.

please devs respond............hope fading.

/shrug

vyvy3369
05-09-2007, 09:29 PM
Raise their saves...
Remove their immunities.

Not even getting a roll on your trip and stun is annoying.

Just because you could kill that Red Named Mindflayer in Shrieking Mines solo everytime with one stunning blow, does not mean it was overpowered.
I think that was their intention with the Titan, and apparently it wasn't satisfactory. Even before the enhancement changes when DCs were able to get a bit higher, the titan (on normal) would pass the strength check & balance saves on trips on a 2...The DC at the time was something like 44, meaning his strength and "stability" bonuses are probably ridiculous.

Honestly though, I really don't miss it all that much. There just aren't all that many red-named enemies. The boost to Weighted though is great on the other hand.

gelgoog
05-15-2007, 04:29 PM
guess it's not an issue to the vocal people here on the forums.
for me it's still an issue, and always will be.

guess it's not an issue to the devs here on ddo as well.
for me it's still an issue, and always will be.

i just would like to improve trip and stunning blow red named as before 4.0
thats all.

*sigh*
i'll adapt but it takes away some coolness to the game for me.

/shrug

Chelsa
05-15-2007, 04:56 PM
i am not rerollin another toon. i have what i have and like it, don't have time to keep rerolling.


Why would you reroll? There are not that many red bosses, so I don't understand how this effects your play. This is suppose to be a group game and encounter balance should note be determined by solo play.

gelgoog
05-15-2007, 05:16 PM
chelsa the red named boss immunities made the tactic build in end boss fights not as good as they once were.

now red named boss fights are only a dps deal.
red named boss fights were always a kill em before they kill you, but tactic builds could give the clerics, barb and all classes a short pause when they trip or stun a red named for a short time before the red named boss saved.

if you never noticed you never had a tactic build in your parties.

rerolling a dps is now what ddo calls for for end bosses.
my tactic build is still great against non-red named bosses but i just fail to see why they took it out with mod 4.

no dev response except "we will look into it"
i still play my tactic build cause i spent the most time on him, and he still deals damage well.

just would prefer to stun and trip those pesky red named bosses is all.
like pre mod 4.

/shrug

Lorien_the_First_One
05-15-2007, 05:39 PM
The real problem...Red named bosses shouldn't automatically have immunities to anything...

If level/class/race appropriate they should buff and have protective items as we do, but that's it. For example, fort items, deathblock items, etc, should be worn as appropriate and of course the Orc Cleric buffed himself with every protective spell in the book. But what spell protects against trip? What item protects 100% against charms? And why should the red named ooze have any protection beyond what a normal ooze gets at all?

The current setup is completely anti-D&D and maybe more importantly...anti-fun. Design a tough interesting boss, not a boss that can just be imune to skilled tactics.

gelgoog
05-23-2007, 12:27 PM
in 4.1 they fix this. on the forums i'm readin more and more about people not liking the red named boss being immune to everything.

turbine has to relize that people will find a way around some boss battles with tactics. and that is fun. not some slug fest .

even though the devs don't respond doesn't mean that they don't read or work on said problems in forums. i just hope a fix is soon.

i really can't see these immunities stayin when the monks come.
also i hope by the time monks come we didn't lose too many players by then.

this game is a lot of fun, i just wish the devs were more........kind to the casual player. if the powergamer beats a mission somehow repeatedly then so be it. don't ruin it for the people that have not even done said mission.
if the red named is buggy then thats your problem turbine get better programmers. don't make the red named immune to everything for no reason.

ugh i'm rantin again, sorry.
i just like the game and wish i could do trip and stun red named bosses again.....and yes it matters to me.....a payin customer.

tihocan
05-24-2007, 12:24 PM
in 4.1 they fix this
Unfortunately it does not seem like it was fixed in 4.1 (it would have been in the release notes). Nor did anyone care to comment on this issue.
Instead, they added more red names for us to enjoy! :D

Skooter_WRX
05-24-2007, 12:50 PM
I agree this is a big issue to me and I would just like some word on weather or not it was intentional.

For me it is really frustrating that there is no way to CC a red name at all. They are immune to everything except for raw DPS. This is just silly IMO, I can understand poision immunity, freedom of movement, deathward, even the immunity to stat damage (even though it is a stretch). But what item makes you immune to stunning blow or to trip and when can I have one? If your afraid of making them too easy just bump up their saves even if we couldn't really land a trip on them it would make me feel better.

This was not in the release notes for module 4 and was discussed on the Risia forums for quite some time before hand. A dev responded to the topic initally and said he/she would have an answer in a couple of days, it's been over a month still no reply.

gelgoog
05-24-2007, 05:52 PM
sorry tihocan, in my header for that message i had "i hope" that they fix it in 4.1 lol.....i notice in posting a message it doesn't show header message.

again i hope they will fix it in 4.1......oh they didn't now that i've been playin since update. darn....here is hopin to a fix in 4.2.....4.3......4.4.....10.2?

bah i think we will all just have to get used to the red named bosses getting even more immunities and normal mobs getting some immunties as well.

/shrug

gelgoog
10-02-2007, 11:18 PM
been some time for a dev to respond to this post. or even read it.

no fix yet. nor a dev response to any posts about the red named immunties since i posted this way back when.


oh well. and yes it still bugs me.

/shrug

Gennerik
10-03-2007, 07:21 AM
Ok, sure, the boss has had spells cast on him to make him immune to instant death spells (of course we can't dispel it, though, which is cheap) and resistant to some damage types, but there really isn't anything in the game that allows you to be immune to Stunning Blow or Trips, so they shouldn't be immune to it. How about just give them an unnamed bonus against those effects to they land less often.

The fact of the matter is that limiting the options on a red named boss just dumbs down the game. Tactics builds are already sacrificing feats and enhancements to be able to pull off those moves a good deal of the time that they could have spent to do more damage, so why penalize them for diversifying by making those skills worthless against the boss enemies? The same goes for most crowd control spells. I hardly see a caster use crowd control past level 10 just because it's more effective to kill things. So why not let people that still keep those spells get to affect red bosses as well?

MysticTheurge
10-03-2007, 07:30 AM
chelsa the red named boss immunities made the tactic build in end boss fights not as good as they once were.

I don't understand people who were/are fine with Boss Immunities to all kinds of spells, but were/are all up in arms about an immunity to trip.

I'll wager that the answer to the question in the title of this thread is "About the same time I become able to Destruct them."

Which is to say, it's not going to happen, so just live with it. Red and Purple name bosses are designed to not let you use any of your tricks, whether you're a fighter, a cleric, a wizard or anything else. And whether it should be that way or not, whether any of us really like it or not, it's simply not going to change. (The fact of the matter is that it did already change with the addition of orange name bosses. They've made their concessions and compromised, so I seriously doubt red names are going to change.)

MysticTheurge
10-03-2007, 07:32 AM
...but there really isn't anything in the game that allows you to be immune to Stunning Blow or Trips

This is not true. (And always seems to be one of the rationales from those people who argue that it's ok for bosses to be immune to spells but to my fighter feats OMG!)

There very clearly are things in DDO which are immune to both stunning and tripping. It's a very short leap from there to spells/magic items that do the same thing. Just because they're not available to players doesn't mean the DM can't use them.

Memnir
10-03-2007, 09:48 AM
They are not immune to all combat feats - just like they are not immune to all spells. However, red/purple named boss mobs are immune to anything that would make them unable to fight back, be it spell or comabt feat... which is the way it should be. I say this as someone who has a level capped dwarven-tactics build fighter and a wizard.

These fights are meant to be epic - and it'd be the very definition of anticlimactic to have the Sorc Flesh to Stone Velah, or for the Titan to die on it's belly after being tripped. But you can Sunder them. I belive Hamstring works to slow them down - just like a caster can Curse them.

Borror0
10-03-2007, 09:58 AM
This is not true. (And always seems to be one of the rationales from those people who argue that it's ok for bosses to be immune to spells but to my fighter feats OMG!)

There very clearly are things in DDO which are immune to both stunning and tripping. It's a very short leap from there to spells/magic items that do the same thing. Just because they're not available to players doesn't mean the DM can't use them.

Yeah, but how all of them would have access to this rare and powerful magic?

That's my biggest issue with Red Named. They are immune to everything, have insane HP, high AC and hit hard... but make no sacrifice.

When you build/gear up your character, you have to make scarifice and think carefuly.

"Ok, I'm a barbarian, I don't need AC so I'm going to put Heavy Fortification on my robe slot."
"Ok, I've got 57 AC self-buffed, I'm going to be OK with Moderate Fortification from Head of Good Fortune."
"Well, Reaver Ring is useful but I've got good saves so I'j not going to wear it."
"I can get that bonus from this spell, it casted often so I'll not waste a slot for this."

Red named are not like that. They have all spells on them, not dispelable and they make no sacrifice. "Ok, so they got Death Block item? That means they probably got lower AC to make it fit in." If they give them powerful items that protect them from Trip, why can't we loot it as a named item?

MysticTheurge
10-03-2007, 10:13 AM
Yeah, but how all of them would have access to this rare and powerful magic?

The DM, who didn't want to hand-tweak each and every one of them, gave it to them all.

(There is also, as Eckleberry used to say, something beneficial about knowing what will and won't work against the bosses.)

Borror0
10-03-2007, 10:20 AM
The DM, who didn't want to hand-tweak each and every one of them, gave it to them all.

Talk about a lazy DM.

Regarding knowing and not knowing... still waiting for that list Samera...

Yaga_Nub
10-03-2007, 10:20 AM
I have a character that only fails against an AOE spell on a 1 when I'm buffed. This has been proven time and time again by allowing casters that have all the enhancements and items that could help a spell hit in their possesion and being used. But it is amazing how often a 1 actually comes up for me. I would say that at least once per quest I roll a 1, often at the most inopportune moment. It is often frustrating to me that my UMD skills are more reliable than my reflex saves because of that damn 1 roll.

Why do I bring this up? Well that roll of 1 can make or break an adventure in an instant. I think that all red named should have those ridiculously high saves but still have that chance to roll a 1 against ANYTHING. Yes, the BA, SR, Velah, DQ or Tital could go down like a two-dollar wh0re when they roll a 1 but that's part of the thrill of a DnD. That however small possibility that I can take a character and with one fell swoop of a longsword, battle axe or perfect spell that a dragon, demi-god, etc. falls and I emerge victorious from a battle.

Why is Achilles a story that everyone remembers (other than most American schools focus on ancient western civilization)? It's this man, given great power, who was able to be defeated by a simple bow shot to his ankle. Here was the greatest warrior ever to live and he was laid low not in an epic sword fight but from long range. Of course someone had to tell Paris where to aim but that is a different story. I would take the bosses with near-blanket immunities if they had one, ever-changing weakness that we could discover during the fight and finally use to win if we couldn't just brute force it to death.

Anyway, just my two cents.

~Treemarker
10-03-2007, 10:56 AM
(There is also, as Eckleberry used to say, something beneficial about knowing what will and won't work against the bosses.)

That's a little disengenuous. The arguement was a false dichotomy he set up. 1) I have a really low chance of landing this spell, so I'll spam it until it lands or I run out of mana. 2) I know this spell will never work so I will just not use it at all. In that world, Eck thought players were better off with option 2.

The reality is somewhere in between. I'd like to try flesh to stoning Velah. Can you imagine the conversations I'd have with friends if it ever lands? "DUDE! Remember that itme you stoned her?" Doesn't mean I'd run out of SPs trying. But I would like a chance to get off a really cool spell, once or twice.

So far as immune to trip, I think it was in reaction to grease being used on the Titan.

gelgoog
10-03-2007, 01:39 PM
well mystic as you can see i have been living with the red named immunities.
just bugs me a lot when a dev doesn't say anything about the reasons behind it.

and i posted this op wayyy back in may.
i wasn't the only one that posted about this.

yaga nub well said.
i miss that "Whoa! i just did that trip?"
yes non red named still get tripped and stunned but not the same feeling.

also strat builds invest there feats/enhancement feats for trips and stuns.
so we can't take all the enhancements we would like to take and instead focus on trip and stuns enhancements.

i've lived with it this long but i rarely play anymore.
i prefer to solo/duoing if i can, when they gave the red named bosses blanket immunties soloing got harder.
rl friends of mine left ddo shortly after when they did this.

as i suspected way back when they made this game a dps game....boring.

i would just like to see a dev give us a good reason why they did these blanket immunties is all.
and not a "because i can".........that would be a bad dm......bad dm.

/shrug

MysticTheurge
10-03-2007, 02:06 PM
also strat builds invest there feats/enhancement feats for trips and stuns.
so we can't take all the enhancements we would like to take and instead focus on trip and stuns enhancements.

This is equally true for spellcasters.


as i suspected way back when they made this game a dps game....boring.

Hardly. Everywhere except red-named bosses, non-DPS tends to thrive.


i would just like to see a dev give us a good reason why they did these blanket immunties is all.

That's just probably not going to happen (again). Boss Immunities were discussed a lot. The devs made their case for them, and then even toned them down by introducing orange-named bosses. I doubt it's going to a) get explained again or b) get changed.

gelgoog
10-03-2007, 02:16 PM
the devs made their case? i would love to see a link to that post mystic.
i know i don't check the forums all that much but i don't recall seeing that post.

also what i say for us strat ftrs goes for all classes.
i'm just stating that i hate not being able to imp trip or stun(my fav feats in game) the red named bosses.

lvl 14 for whatever reason maybe favor goes into a lvl 2 elite quest and can't imp trip a red named kobold? lol. all that training in the tripping school and can't trip a kobold lol.

/shrug

MysticTheurge
10-03-2007, 02:20 PM
the devs made their case? i would love to see a link to that post mystic.
i know i don't check the forums all that much but i don't recall seeing that post.

I'm talking about Boss Immunities in general. They were, at that point, only spell immunities, but they were discussed extensively, with some dev interaction back towards the beginning of the game.

The addition of certain combat feats to the list of immunities got a whole bunch of new people up in arms about them and the devs haven't said anything since those people started paying attention.

But again, I just can't feel any sympathy for people who complain about trip or stunning blow, but never cared that you couldn't hold or PK bosses.

Talson
10-03-2007, 02:45 PM
I'm talking about Boss Immunities in general. They were, at that point, only spell immunities, but they were discussed extensively, with some dev interaction back towards the beginning of the game.

The addition of certain combat feats to the list of immunities got a whole bunch of new people up in arms about them and the devs haven't said anything since those people started paying attention.

But again, I just can't feel any sympathy for people who complain about trip or stunning blow, but never cared that you couldn't hold or PK bosses.

MT

I see your point of view but I still see a difference between trip and an instakill effect... Stun I could see being the equivalent of a hold or flesh to stone due to (auto crit dammage). PK, Destruction, Finger of Death I see as equivalent to Vorpal, Smiter, Disrupting, and banishing Weapons. Trip I'd consider the equivalent of paralyzing, solid fog, web.

Here's the catch 22 I'd agree that instakill effects would make the encouter pretty boring no need to have the titan smited or vella destructed....

The middle spectrum of Stun, flesh to stone, and holds while not having insta kills probably should not be effective in cases where the MOB is vulnerable to crits because of the masssive DPS that could get dished out before able to recover from the effect.

On the other end of the spectrum trip, paralyzing, web, SF I could see these as being valid attacks if the creature rolls a 1 (95% of the time it's not going to do anything). A boss mob is going to make it's next save anyways so all but SF would be very temporay in how they effected the end fight. This would at least bring a little bit of the wow factor into the encouter.

Take it easy
Tal

Borror0
10-03-2007, 03:18 PM
On the other end of the spectrum trip, paralyzing, web, SF I could see these as being valid attacks if the creature rolls a 1 (95% of the time it's not going to do anything). A boss mob is going to make it's next save anyways so all but SF would be very temporay in how they effected the end fight. This would at least bring a little bit of the wow factor into the encouter.

Nicely said. /clap

I'd agree that red named should be immuned to instadeath effect like smiting, vorpal and disruption, but crowd control would add some diveristy in the end-fights.

Right now, all you can do is hack 'n slash. Click, click and... click. Well, that's not totally true. I do jump around on my tank, but you get the idea. Cwrowd control would "change" the combat, but it'd had a different perspective to the game and not just nukes and insane DPS.

Yaga_Nub
10-03-2007, 05:34 PM
Nicely said. /clap

I'd agree that red named should be immuned to instadeath effect like smiting, vorpal and disruption, but crowd control would add some diveristy in the end-fights.

Right now, all you can do is hack 'n slash. Click, click and... click. Well, that's not totally true. I do jump around on my tank, but you get the idea. Cwrowd control would "change" the combat, but it'd had a different perspective to the game and not just nukes and insane DPS.

Completely disagree. The shouldn't be immune to anything. Make all their saves 50s and let them take their chances with a 1 roll just like we do. Half of the fantasy books that we grew up with and that DnD are based off of are built around that one lucky hit.

Borror0
10-03-2007, 05:49 PM
Completely disagree. The shouldn't be immune to anything. Make all their saves 50s and let them take their chances with a 1 roll just like we do. Half of the fantasy books that we grew up with and that DnD are based off of are built around that one lucky hit.

How many do you think I land on the Reaver before he dies from DPS?

I'd say far more than 50, we agree that he'll be dead from a vorpal by then? Add other vorpals and FoD and PK. Raid bosses would drop too fast, 5% chance is too much.

Sorry.

Hence
10-03-2007, 05:54 PM
Just to clarify... the Reaver is a Purple named, not a Red Named boss.

Red named bosses are boring because we use less of our abilities. I can see how immunities could apply to purple named mobs.. but even still, when I could Stunning blow the Demon Queen, it did not just end the fight.

Borror0
10-03-2007, 05:59 PM
Just to clarify... the Reaver is a Purple named, not a Red Named boss.

I know that, but what I said about the reaver is true about any other red named mob in the game.

Just think about the WF at the end of PoP, what if he could be smited?


Red named bosses are boring because we use less of our abilities. I can see how immunities could apply to purple named mobs.. but even still, when I could Stunning blow the Demon Queen, it did not just end the fight.

That's what I meant, it adds diversity, but it's not unbalancing. Makes fight more enjoyable.

MysticTheurge
10-03-2007, 08:10 PM
Half of the fantasy books that we grew up with and that DnD are based off of are built around that one lucky hit.

You're joking, right?

No climactic battle is ever resolved randomly because the bad guy happened to have a unlucky roll. That's the definition of anti-climactic.

Yaga_Nub
10-04-2007, 07:52 AM
You're joking, right?

No climactic battle is ever resolved randomly because the bad guy happened to have a unlucky roll. That's the definition of anti-climactic.

Absolutely they have.

XXX knows what the one weakness of YYY is and they and/or their forces battle until that exact moment that the right spell can be cast/weapon can hit/tactic can be unleashed/etc.

It's build up and then release and the release is always much quicker than the build up.

I understand that it can't be that way in DDO because it's a monty-haul campaign and everyone, their brother, and both of their dogs has vorpals, smiters, disruptors, etc. but it is how it should have been.

Yaga_Nub
10-04-2007, 07:56 AM
Just think about the WF at the end of PoP, what if he could be smited?

What if he could, they could just as easily give him a deathblock item AND make it a rare drop that could be lootable to explain an immunity. Even if they didn't, remember the Marut in VON3? He was smitable for a long time. Not everyone has smiters believe it or not. There are still tons of people that aren't power-gamers.

That's what I meant, it adds diversity, but it's not unbalancing. Makes fight more enjoyable.

Then you are agreeing that the blanket immunities should be removed? That's not what you said in your previous post.



see above

Josh
10-04-2007, 08:07 AM
You're joking, right?

No climactic battle is ever resolved randomly because the bad guy happened to have a unlucky roll. That's the definition of anti-climactic.

Paris shooting Achilles in the heel...
Wulfgar bringing down the cave on the Yochlol...
Bard the Bowman shooting Smaug in his exposed area...

That is but a few. Those are hardly anti-climactic.

Talson
10-04-2007, 08:45 AM
"Just think about the WF at the end of PoP, what if he could be smited?"

"What if he could, they could just as easily give him a deathblock item AND make it a rare drop that could be lootable to explain an immunity. Even if they didn't, remember the Marut in VON3? He was smitable for a long time. Not everyone has smiters believe it or not. There are still tons of people that aren't power-gamers."

Yaga I'd have to say that these days there are far more people who have power five weapons than prior to the immunity change due to GH loot runs. The concept of people having several extra paralyzers, or that certain banishers and smiters were considered subpar weapons IMO didn't happen until after GH.

That's what I meant, it adds diversity, but it's not unbalancing. Makes fight more enjoyable.

Then you are agreeing that the blanket immunities should be removed? That's not what you said in your previous post

He's agreeing that they should be partially removed in an effort to make the end encouter more than dish out X amount of DPS as fast as possible. Personally I'd probably still avoid insta death effects on Boss fights but who knows maybe if they realized that small step of allowing a little CC didn't change the encounters too much perhaps they'd take a step up and remove other immunities as well.

Take it easy
Tal

Yaga_Nub
10-04-2007, 08:56 AM
Yaga I'd have to say that these days there are far more people who have power five weapons than prior to the immunity change due to GH loot runs. The concept of people having several extra paralyzers, or that certain banishers and smiters were considered subpar weapons IMO didn't happen until after GH.

Take it easy
Tal

And I still say that there are more people without power 5 weapons than with.

I guess it comes down to this. I've ran the GH pre-raid tons of times. Sometimes, for whatever reason it has gone so smooth and quick that the group says lets go right back in. I mean zero deaths, very little trouble with the dragons, etc.

Exact same group goes back in to pre-raid. This time the Blue dragon room wipes us 3 times, the white dragon room wipes us 4 times, and we get by the black dragon by the skin of our teeth.

What changed? Nothing..... except for the rolls. That's the great thing about DnD/DDO. There is always a roll. And those rolls can go against you just like they can go with you. Let the rolls decide not the devs.

Laith
10-04-2007, 10:05 AM
doing the same thing repeatedly until you get lucky isn't some climactic event, it's just an inevitability of statistics.

Borror0
10-04-2007, 10:26 AM
doing the same thing repeatedly until you get lucky isn't some climactic event, it's just an inevitability of statistics.

Exactly, attacking with a vorpal isn't letting the rolls decide, it's waiting for the roll, period. Three person melee a red named with a vorpal means that it'll be vorpaled in no time.

Blanket immunity --> REMOVED!!!
Death Block --> Stays in, but not Death Ward (ie Con damage works)

Yaga_Nub
10-04-2007, 10:35 AM
doing the same thing repeatedly until you get lucky isn't some climactic event, it's just an inevitability of statistics.

Then get rid of all your vorpals, smiters, banishers, disruptors and paralyzers. You'll gleefully use them to get to the end boss but when you get there you now want them to be useless? So you only want the end boss to be a challenge not the whole quest?

But for the sake of moving the argument along, I'll agree with Bor, Blanket Immunities GONE, Deathblock - STAYS

Laith
10-04-2007, 10:41 AM
Then get rid of all your vorpals, smiters, banishers, disruptors and paralyzers. You'll gleefully use them to get to the end boss but when you get there you now want them to be useless? So you only want the end boss to be a challenge not the whole quest?

But for the sake of moving the argument along, I'll agree with Bor, Blanket Immunities GONE, Deathblock - STAYSnot every fight or every enemy is meant to be climactic. If they were, there would be no climax (a slow build is kinda the entire point).
Besides, insta-kill toys are fun from time to time... but it's not difficult to see why they'd ruin boss encounters.

all i'm saying is that when it comes to the end boss it wouldn't be:
"oh man, it was so cool that you managed to land that FoD in the nick of time!"
it'd be
"ok, so i'm gonna just keep spamming FoD here, it's gotta land eventually. I've got plenty of potions primed, so dig in boys!"

(and if you belive in the deathblock, replace FOD with Flesh to Stone)

MysticTheurge
10-04-2007, 01:58 PM
XXX knows what the one weakness of YYY is and they and/or their forces battle until that exact moment that the right spell can be cast/weapon can hit/tactic can be unleashed/etc.

It's build up and then release and the release is always much quicker than the build up.


Paris shooting Achilles in the heel...
Wulfgar bringing down the cave on the Yochlol...
Bard the Bowman shooting Smaug in his exposed area...

That is but a few. Those are hardly anti-climactic.

There's a big (BIG) difference between searching for, discovering and exploiting the weakness of an unbeatable enemy and just getting lucky with any old spell/attack.

The things you describe still happen. Stormcleave is a good example (find the shards, release the elementals powering Xanti'lar's defenses and finally bring him down). Tempest Spine is another (you find the runes, places them properly and bring down Sor'jek's defenses). Heck, all of the raids pretty much work this way.

But it doesn't work via the standard D&D rules. You don't just keep spamming trip or destruction or PK until the big bad rolls a 1 on it's save and ta da you've saved the day. There are no stories that work that way.

Talson
10-04-2007, 02:12 PM
There's a big (BIG) difference between searching for, discovering and exploiting the weakness of an unbeatable enemy and just getting lucky with any old spell/attack.

The things you describe still happen. Stormcleave is a good example (find the shards, release the elementals powering Xanti'lar's defenses and finally bring him down). Tempest Spine is another (you find the runes, places them properly and bring down Sor'jek's defenses). Heck, all of the raids pretty much work this way.

But it doesn't work via the standard D&D rules. You don't just keep spamming trip or destruction or PK until the big bad rolls a 1 on it's save and ta da you've saved the day. There are no stories that work that way.


The feeling though that people are describing I see as missing from the game... For example two sessions ago in a PnP campaign the boss I think was an "advocate of he flame" basically it could drop AOE fire attacks on others or litterally on itself round after round...

The Bard in the party tripped the priest using a whip... All of us including the bard thought this will never work but he figured I'll give it a shot... priest rolled low on the save and was tripped. On it's turn priest took a five foot shift to attempted to get up and the bard tripped him again.

Eventually the party surrounded the preist and killed it after taking two rounds of fire dammage cause the priest dirrected the aoe attack upon himself...

The surprise feeling we all had when the bard tripped the preist the holy **** I don't believe that just happend is a component the game just doesn't have right now.

Take it easy
Tal

Yaga_Nub
10-04-2007, 03:41 PM
The feeling though that people are describing I see as missing from the game... For example two sessions ago in a PnP campaign the boss I think was an "advocate of he flame" basically it could drop AOE fire attacks on others or litterally on itself round after round...

The Bard in the party tripped the priest using a whip... All of us including the bard thought this will never work but he figured I'll give it a shot... priest rolled low on the save and was tripped. On it's turn priest took a five foot shift to attempted to get up and the bard tripped him again.

Eventually the party surrounded the preist and killed it after taking two rounds of fire dammage cause the priest dirrected the aoe attack upon himself...

The surprise feeling we all had when the bard tripped the preist the holy **** I don't believe that just happend is a component the game just doesn't have right now.

Take it easy
Tal

Yes, it's the "HOLY SH*T!" factor. The "I can't believe the boss in SC is affected by Ooze Puppet but damned if now that I know (in this one instance) I'm going to use Ooze Puppet to win this fight!"

Maybe having red named bosses have a completely random weakness would allow for that "HOLY SH*T" factor and make things more interesting. Give each one a random weakness to one element and one completely random spell (within reason, it would be hard to see Xan'tilar being affected by Ooze Puppet but it is a fantasy world after all). Sure you might get your but whipped in one instance but if you can quickly figure out which element and/or spell that is going to affect the boss then you might come out without a party wipe. Or in keeping with the SC them, make every quest similar that if you do optional quests or critters then it will weaken the boss. The General isn't super tough but he's a lot easier if you kill the elemental and memphits but if you choose to do that those darn memphits are TOUGH.

COME ON DEVS, GIVE US THAT "HOLY SH*T!" FACTOR!

Invalid_86
10-04-2007, 08:08 PM
There's a big (BIG) difference between searching for, discovering and exploiting the weakness of an unbeatable enemy and just getting lucky with any old spell/attack.

Ah but stunning, tripping, sundering and the like are pretty straightforward weaknesses- weaknesses that are and should be shared by nearly every boss. We shouldn't have to search for them -and they should work.



But it doesn't work via the standard D&D rules. You don't just keep spamming trip or destruction or PK until the big bad rolls a 1 on it's save and ta da you've saved the day. There are no stories that work that way.

It does work in standard 3.5 rules- it doesn't in the warped DDO rules. In effect we use (or are heavily encouraged to use) these tactics because the game has been made for them to be spammed, then the game is made so you can't use them when you need them the most. That just isn't right! It's also a symptom of a power spiral, the result of too powerful characters and Monty Haulism.

Edit: Holy long a**ed signature Batman! Should it be longer than most people's posts?

pressurepoint14
05-04-2008, 03:21 PM
it's just this simple: if my maximized empowered force missile works then the fighters trip should work.

and yes spamming the same spell over and over till it works is EXACTLY how the sorcerer is supposed to work. don't believe me read the last fight scene in ritch bakers start of darkness, that explains it all.

Ghoste
05-04-2008, 03:28 PM
/signed.

When the devs were asked why they gave these immunities to red named bosses, the only answer they ever gave was: ifplayers can make all the preparation to get all the right immunity items to prepare for specific fights, the best of the monsters (rednamed) should be able to do so too.

Following that logic, players should have long ago been able to find immunity items for trip, stunning blow, etc. When asked about that, the devs have remained silent. They refuse to follow their own logic through (with one small exception: we now have the acrobat enhancement available to rogues, a very exclusive and arguably not very useful line).

Invalid_86
05-04-2008, 05:28 PM
Well how about this. Let us trip anything that can be tripped in DnD.

BUT

Make trip and knockdown effects work like they are supposed to. You don't lie there defenseless, unable to attack, waiting to pass a balance check. You still have your AC, you can attack while prone, you get up for free after a moment or so (equivalent of a move action in DnD) or you just tumble away. Throw in a free attack if you try to get up when in front of an opponent.

If you trip while unarmed or using a weapon that doesn't give a bonus to trip attacks your opponent gets a free attack on you if you don't have Improved Trip. If you fail...your opponent gets a free trip attack against you.

Trips are touch attacks- which is cool because with the introduction of Monks touch AC is way overdue- and the trip itself does no damage if successful.

Whoa! That actually sounds balanced and like DnD!

Ghoste
05-04-2008, 05:55 PM
If you want to fully balance it out like PnP, add disarm, grappling and bull rushing! Could make some interesting builds around those combat tactics.

Naso24
05-04-2008, 06:21 PM
I recall seeing something about how combat tactic clickies will be based on your highest bab in the future. So even if they are immune, it still may be worthwhile clicking away in a chain. Too bad trip and improved trip don't have independent timers.

Invalid_86
05-04-2008, 09:41 PM
If you want to fully balance it out like PnP, add disarm, grappling and bull rushing! Could make some interesting builds around those combat tactics.

Grappling should be introduced with monks as many vicious monks are born grapplers. But like I said before how good monks are in DDO will depend heavily on how much of the missing things that should come with them actually comes with them!

Disarm would be great too, but I see the players screaming bloody murder when their favorite uber-whatever gets knocked out of their hands. But then again, what smart vampire or pit fiend WOULDN'T just disarm that barbarian that's waving the greater bane weapon in their face! Ha ha!

Bull rushing would be a great breaker-upper to all of the lame shield wall + wall of fire tactics that so many groups have come to rely on.

I am all for making monsters smarter rather than just bloating them to compensate.

Solmage
05-04-2008, 09:56 PM
I'd like to see some immunities removed and replaced with (admittedly slightly cheesy) insight or some other BS bonus to make them more resistant to the effect.

Virtual immunity is a lot better than absolute immunity in my book. Yet where it makes sense, the specific red name should still be immune to some of the effects (no tripping of velah, I mean really. Maybe you can perform a stun maneuver by jumping into her mouth and causing her indigestion or something..) . But there are a lot less 'epic' red names that should be trippable, even if you need a very high roll to do it.

Nobody wants to see a sorcerer walk up to a red name and finger of death him with ease. But that same sorcerer casting greater dispel magic 20 times trying to get rid of the deathblock guard while dodging the counter attacks, and THEN using the finger, well now that just became interesting. Imho.

Aesop
05-04-2008, 09:59 PM
Grappling should be introduced with monks as many vicious monks are born grapplers. But like I said before how good monks are in DDO will depend heavily on how much of the missing things that should come with them actually comes with them!

Disarm would be great too, but I see the players screaming bloody murder when their favorite uber-whatever gets knocked out of their hands. But then again, what smart vampire or pit fiend WOULDN'T just disarm that barbarian that's waving the greater bane weapon in their face! Ha ha!

Bull rushing would be a great breaker-upper to all of the lame shield wall + wall of fire tactics that so many groups have come to rely on.

I am all for making monsters smarter rather than just bloating them to compensate.



Disarm could either just kick it to their inventory or give a %damage penalty... I'm thinking the %damage penalty would be easier to code... and a nice little debuff that fighters could toss out there

Bull Rush... players goin all minotaur would be funny but I think it would end up lookin more like a Shield Bash that had the chance to push back and knock down.

grapple... that ones tough to code in a game like this I think


Aesop

Kromize
05-04-2008, 10:49 PM
should make stat dmg work as well... (:

But I do understand that you cant vorpal them and whatnot...but why not make it so if u can use a special affect like that on them, it does like 10d6, instead of insta death?:cool:

Same goes for purple names!!! :rolleyes:

gelgoog
05-05-2008, 12:00 AM
this is an old post i did.....lol a year ago almost to the day lol.
yeah i still wish for the day blanket immunities were lessened.
but heck i am still enjoying the game nonetheless.

looks like we will have to see if they change anything silently when monks come out in mod 7.

as to the grapple. well if they can put this in this game it would be great.
i prefer the no mercy wwf game on the nintendo 64. now that is a grappling system! if that was in ddo where you can pick your grapplin' moves! that would be insane for me.

bull rush would be awesome. higher enhancement to bull rush the longer the distance and more damage you can do maybe?

disarm would be pretty cool to see especially with an animation of "where my weapon go?"

purple named bosses should be very powerful but still have saves.
red named bosses should be powerful...for there level and have saves.

the vorpal/banishing and so forth shouldn't work on them.....but maybe on normal setting for mission?......hmm.

Bah i rambling.

/shrug

GlassCannon
05-05-2008, 05:06 AM
Making things fully immune to every form of major attack was and still is a bad idea.

"Hey Tim, these guys are just ripping this raid boss apart! Check it out!"
http://www.umkcbeta.com/Famous_Betas/Pictures/Web%20Ready/Richard_Karn.jpg

"Yeah, Al, they have it down to 10%... in 30 seconds?? Oh... someone Stunned it. Let's nerf that. They look to be using Greater Banes too. All of them. And Power Attack. I'm glad we nerfed every power weapon on these raids. Still, that needs to be hit with a Nerf Wrench."
http://www.cinemablend.com/images/sections/3607/3607.jpg

"I don't think so, Tim"
http://www.hiarchive.co.uk/vital/al.jpg

"Shut up, Al."
http://www.wchstv.com/abc/homeimprov/timallen.jpg

Borror0
05-05-2008, 05:38 AM
Making things fully immune to every form of major attack was and still is a bad idea.

"Hey Tim, these guys are just ripping this raid boss apart! Check it out!"
"Yeah, Al, they have it down to 10%... in 30 seconds?? Oh... someone Stunned it. Let's nerf that. They look to be using Greater Banes too. All of them. And Power Attack. I'm glad we nerfed every power weapon on these raids. Still, that needs to be hit with a Nerf Wrench."
"I don't think so, Tim"
"Shut up, Al."


hehe

Yeah, not a good idea. Red and Purple named are nothing both a DPS contest become of all these immunities...
At worse, I can see for Stunning Blow. As you said, it allows you to drop the mob fast... but Trip?

Invalid_86
05-05-2008, 08:21 AM
hehe

Yeah, not a good idea. Red and Purple named are nothing both a DPS contest become of all these immunities...
At worse, I can see for Stunning Blow. As you said, it allows you to drop the mob fast... but Trip?

That's one of the dangers in just making stuff up to add to the game. We have to compensate for a feat that isn't in the PHB.

Master_of_None
05-05-2008, 09:52 AM
I don't think it would actually be a big deal. Six seconds of auto-crits is a death sentence for most mobs, but with the hit points high-level red-named bosses have, at best it helps take him down a little faster. Land one at the beginning of the fight, and I think it's very unlikely most parties could kill a typical boss in six seconds.

MysticTheurge
05-05-2008, 12:13 PM
it's just this simple: if my maximized empowered force missile works then the fighters trip should work.

These two things are not comparable.

One is Damage (DPS) and the other is not (it's Crowd control).

If force missiles work against a boss, then hitting it with a weapon should work.

If tripping a boss works, then other forms on CC, such as hold spells and so on, should work.

Invalid_86
05-05-2008, 12:42 PM
These two things are not comparable.

One is Damage (DPS) and the other is not (it's Crowd control).

If force missiles work against a boss, then hitting it with a weapon should work.

If tripping a boss works, then other forms on CC, such as hold spells and so on, should work.

Yes, CCs should work. That's again a drawback to a spell points system- spam casting of a handful of spells, leading to lame immunities like these.

N'venger
07-31-2008, 04:42 PM
How many do you think I land on the Reaver before he dies from DPS?

I'd say far more than 50, we agree that he'll be dead from a vorpal by then? Add other vorpals and FoD and PK. Raid bosses would drop too fast, 5% chance is too much.

Sorry.How about this for a solution... suspend the auto-fail on 1 rule for red-named mobs. Then a bosses immunity depends on how high your DCs is. The DC for a lot of weapon affects would probably be too low in most cases. But high DC casters or tactical fighters could potentially land incapacitating effects on a red-boss mob (except where they possess a realistic immunity). That seems like a good solution to the problem to me. Alternatively, you could give red names a d50 to roll fpr DC checks, thus decreasing the likelihood of rolling a 1 to 2%.