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View Full Version : Cabal of One: Disarm exceedingly hard traps = lose chest. Why?



Talcyndl
04-20-2007, 02:33 PM
So putting aside the incredibly high DCs on the traps in here (which I suspect are to get people used to the idea of higher DCs in subsequent content and are based on folks taking the "Way of the Mechanic" enhancement line)...

Why is this quest designed to punish a group that decides to not fall for the double cross?

I sort of understand the "well you kill him now, so he's not there at the end to spawn a chest" story line. But wouldn't it make just as much sense (if not more) that his chest is still there at the end even though he's dead?

And more to the point, if you want to reward high end (and I mean HIGH end) trapsmithing skills, why take away a nice chest from the party that chooses to try and disarm the traps?

:confused:

Jorval
04-20-2007, 02:50 PM
They do the same thing in BAM. Finish by non-combative means, you get an XP bonus, finish by fighting, you get two extra chests...

Talcyndl
04-20-2007, 03:04 PM
They do the same thing in BAM. Finish by non-combative means, you get an XP bonus, finish by fighting, you get two extra chests...

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in Cabal of One you still have to fight everything along the way - while dealing with the traps. And you even have to fight the same bosses. You just get the slight advantage of not having two bosses in the same room at the end - because you killed one at the beginning.

Seems to me that there is no real justification for punishing the group by removing one of the chests.

MysticTheurge
04-20-2007, 03:42 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in Cabal of One you still have to fight everything along the way - while dealing with the traps. And you even have to fight the same bosses. You just get the slight advantage of not having two bosses in the same room at the end - because you killed one at the beginning.

Seems to me that there is no real justification for punishing the group by removing one of the chests.

I don't think it was a suggestion that the CfO trap method is a non-combative method, just that it's an alternative, like the non-combative method in BAM, that results in fewer chests.

Laith
04-20-2007, 03:53 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but in Cabal of One you still have to fight everything along the way - while dealing with the traps. And you even have to fight the same bosses. You just get the slight advantage of not having two bosses in the same room at the end - because you killed one at the beginning.

Seems to me that there is no real justification for punishing the group by removing one of the chests.the group by the first trap (fire) was definately gone if you don't have him disarm traps. having not gone any further than that, i couldn't say how many mobs were gone.

basically, we gave it a try, and when our rogue couldn't even spot/search the first trap, we reconsidered doing it this way ;)

Talcyndl
04-20-2007, 03:56 PM
I don't think it was a suggestion that the CfO trap method is a non-combative method, just that it's an alternative, like the non-combative method in BAM, that results in fewer chests.

Well it obviously results in one less chest. :)

The question is whether it should?

I can understand a quest design that says: if you choose a path that makes the quest easier, you lose part of the reward.

But in Cabel of One, having to disarm all the traps is hardly an easier way to complete the quest. In fact, it's probably a much harder overall way to complete the quest.

Talcyndl
04-20-2007, 03:58 PM
the group by the first trap (fire) was definately gone if you don't have him disarm traps. having not gone any further than that, i couldn't say how many mobs were gone.

basically, we gave it a try, and when our rogue couldn't even spot/search the first trap, we reconsidered doing it this way ;)

:D

Well if all the enemies are gone, I retract my criticism.

Guess I'll have to see if I can convince a group to let me try the traps (just not on elite).

Phesic
04-20-2007, 03:58 PM
Well it obviously results in one less chest. :)

The question is whether it should?

I can understand a quest design that says: if you choose a path that makes the quest easier, you lose part of the reward.

But in Cabel of One, having to disarm all the traps is hardly an easier way to complete the quest. In fact, it's probably a much harder overall way to complete the quest.

But you do get an extra 10 percent XP.

Talcyndl
04-20-2007, 04:14 PM
But you do get an extra 10 percent XP.

Know of any group that would trade one of the end chests for an extra 10% XP?

Me neither. :)

Eldorudo
04-20-2007, 04:38 PM
With "A Cabal for One", we wanted to give you a choice and depending on your choice you would get a slightly different outcome. Of course, your first time through you won't know what your outcome will be, but on subsequent visits you can make the decision between xp and loot. The traps are challenging, but adding another tough boss to the end encounter is even more tough I believe, hence the extra chest for that path.

Aspenor
04-20-2007, 04:40 PM
hehehe chests are optional, not required.

Sure it's a high level chest, but we don't always get everything. Such is life.

Shrazkil
04-20-2007, 06:21 PM
Hmm well other then not being able to spot them, the traps were extremely easy on elite to search and disable for my wiz/rog . 53 disable is still no fail.

Shade
04-20-2007, 06:50 PM
With "A Cabal for One", we wanted to give you a choice and depending on your choice you would get a slightly different outcome. Of course, your first time through you won't know what your outcome will be, but on subsequent visits you can make the decision between xp and loot. The traps are challenging, but adding another tough boss to the end encounter is even more tough I believe, hence the extra chest for that path.

Think the point of this thread was to say that most players agree disarming the traps is far more difficult and less rewards then not disarming them and fighting an xtra boss.

He is incredibly easy to kill, wheather you fight him at the start or at the end doesn't really change that much. Id bet that having him there has never caused any groups to whipe where they may have won the fight, or even close to that.

It should be the other way around. Don't have him disable the traps, rogue does it and you get xtra treasure (and the 10% trap bonus), but ofcourse also extra danger and resources to get it.

In a game where you can do less then half the new quests and hit the XP cap again, XP is not nearly as valuable as loot. (Something I did on my main, capped xp with only the main area, and most side quests done without barely touching the actual lvl14 quests I was capped)

Macrawn
04-20-2007, 06:50 PM
Well, I think that disarming a very hard trap ought to be rewarded perhaps even more than fighting two bosses at the same time. It gives the rogues more use and value to have in the party. There isn't a group out there that could care at all about the xp. Not all rogues have the skills to disable all those hard traps. So what if you get 10 percent more. You will be capped again in a couple of weeks anyway.

I like the idea of choice, but the choices should each lead to something interesting and unique at the end. 10 percent xp is of no value to any high level group.

The only thing the disarming choice would lead to is a bunch of angry mobs yelling at the rogue for disabling the trap and ruining the chances for an extra chest.

Talcyndl
04-20-2007, 11:02 PM
The traps are challenging, but adding another tough boss to the end encounter is even more tough I believe, hence the extra chest for that path.

Thanks for the reply. Not sure I agree based on the DCs of the traps being reported. But nice to know the thought was there.

Oh and btw, love the new area and quests. :thumbs up:

Talcyndl
04-20-2007, 11:05 PM
And just to add...

I think pretty much every group would decide on the extra fight option versus the trap option even if the rewards were the same.

To me, that signals that the trap choice is more difficult/challenging/annoying or whatever should factor into the reward level.

Conejo
04-20-2007, 11:17 PM
The only thing the disarming choice would lead to is a bunch of angry mobs yelling at the rogue for disabling the trap and ruining the chances for an extra chest.

speaking as a player of a rogue, i think this statement will wind up being true.

"stupid rogue, we didn't want traps, we wanted loot!"

fefnir3284
04-20-2007, 11:47 PM
Hmm well other then not being able to spot them, the traps were extremely easy on elite to search and disable for my wiz/rog . 53 disable is still no fail.

hush you. I got a dd of 44-47 and an open lock of 39-44 and can do alright, yet I still cant search or sopt a darn thing (30-36 in those skills). so the last thing I need is someone telling them their still too easy. i think they need to drop the spot ans searches, not raise them

<btw, sup shraz, you munchkin :p>

silverraven
04-21-2007, 12:31 AM
hush you. I got a dd of 44-47 and an open lock of 39-44 and can do alright, yet I still cant search or sopt a darn thing (30-36 in those skills). so the last thing I need is someone telling them their still too easy. i think they need to drop the spot ans searches, not raise them

Yeah!!! Woot! I second that motion. Anyone who thinks the new traps are too easy obviously doesn't play a rogue and should not jinx anything by saying the traps aren't difficult and causing the devs to up the ante by jacking them up.:mad:

Gratch
04-21-2007, 03:44 AM
He is incredibly easy to kill, wheather you fight him at the start or at the end doesn't really change that much. Id bet that having him there has never caused any groups to whipe where they may have won the fight, or even close to that.

Actually in PUGing Cabal on elite with a group we wanted the extra chest... after charm removing all the other mobs... our scattered fighters got pretty bashed by the double boss mobs together... mostly as one kept HEALing them both and with so many HP on elite... very tough. Almost wiped... then we got smart and reapproached it in a more DoT concentration method. Worked better that way.

DNDJESS
04-21-2007, 09:01 AM
So with this quest, bringing a rogue actually costs you loot? Geez, aren't there enough quests where we're not wanted?

MysticTheurge
04-21-2007, 09:14 AM
So with this quest, bringing a rogue actually costs you loot? Geez, aren't there enough quests where we're not wanted?

No.

Choosing a specific option costs you loot. You can bring a rogue and choose either option.

Talcyndl
04-21-2007, 09:21 AM
No.

Choosing a specific option costs you loot. You can bring a rogue and choose either option.

Right. It's *using* the rogue that costs you loot. :D

Seriously though, even with the "no trap" choice there is still the secret room chest. Not that very many rogues can find the box. Dang that search DC is high - even on normal. :(

Conejo
04-21-2007, 09:43 AM
Right. It's *using* the rogue that costs you loot. :D

Seriously though, even with the "no trap" choice there is still the secret room chest. Not that very many rogues can find the box. Dang that search DC is high - even on normal. :(

what's the DC on that bad boy?

binnsr
04-21-2007, 09:53 AM
The Search DC for the secret room trap is between 40 and 47 on normal -- Our rogue couldn't find it with a 38, so I brought in my rogue after the quest was complete and was able to find it with a 47.
I have not been back since to try it on harder difficulties or to try normal with a lower (I had GH and used my skill boost, but didn't think to try it without the skill boost until I had already found it) search skill.

I don't recall getting a spot notice either -- but then, I didn't have my spot ring or Wis hat on since we already knew where it was.. something else to remember to check next time I'm there..

Solmage
04-21-2007, 11:23 AM
With "A Cabal for One", we wanted to give you a choice and depending on your choice you would get a slightly different outcome. Of course, your first time through you won't know what your outcome will be, but on subsequent visits you can make the decision between xp and loot. The traps are challenging, but adding another tough boss to the end encounter is even more tough I believe, hence the extra chest for that path.

The extra "tough boss at the end" means that I'll need maybe 1 more fireball than without, and that only if he moved when I cast the other ones or somehow made his save when the other boss didn't.

Basically it adds oh about 4 seconds of extra difficulty, on elite. I'm sorry, but I think someone disarming all the traps should still get the chest. The inane trap difficulty is challenging enough in itself to warrant the extra xp, without having to punish loot.

Now, if instead of just spawning a boss, it would spawn about a strike team WITH the new boss charging at you from behind WHILE you're engaged with the first boss, then you'd have a decent point about extra difficulty for an extra chest.

However, even then I would still say it'd be fairly balanced to leave the extra chest in anyway: One way you avoid a lot of very hard traps, the other you avoid a very tough encounter. The way it is now is option A) very hard traps for no chest, or b) no traps + very easy extra encounter for chest. Hmmm. Not a tough choice.

The_Rocking_Dead
04-23-2007, 09:44 AM
I think you guys are forgetting to mention that there's another chest in this quest which you practically need a rogue to open.

Also, like ElDorudo mentioned, We wanted to give players a choice, because you're always asking why none of the choices you make affect anything. Well, now some of your choices do make a difference, and you're forced to choose wisely. Do you want more XP because you brought a Rogue. Do you want the end fight to be a little easier because you don't have a full group? Do you not have a rogue in the group, and don't want to deal with traps? Do you simply want another chest? These are questions we wanted players to ask themselves.

Now, we know that 9 out of 10 times you're going to want the chest, which in that quest means you may not bring a rogue. But, that's why we have the other chest in there, meant to adequately challenge the skilled rogue.

Pellegro
04-23-2007, 09:47 AM
I think you guys are forgetting to mention that there's another chest in this quest which you practically need a rogue to open.

Also, like ElDorudo mentioned, We wanted to give players a choice, because you're always asking why none of the choices you make affect anything. Well, now some of your choices do make a difference, and you're forced to choose wisely. Do you want more XP because you brought a Rogue. Do you want the end fight to be a little easier because you don't have a full group? Do you not have a rogue in the group, and don't want to deal with traps? Do you simply want another chest? These are questions we wanted players to ask themselves.

Now, we know that 9 out of 10 times you're going to want the chest, which in that quest means you may not bring a rogue. But, that's why we have the other chest in there, meant to adequately challenge the skilled rogue.

I don't think most of the players fully understood the choices or the ramifications. Now the cats out of the bag!

Personally - I like the added choices and variety and hope there is more of it in the future. Playing around with optionals, loot, xp, and having there be various "maximization" strategies is a great way to keep players on their toes, discovering new things, and the fresh factor up.

Laith
04-23-2007, 10:12 AM
Now, we know that 9 out of 10 times you're going to want the chest, which in that quest means you may not bring a rogue. But, that's why we have the other chest in there, meant to adequately challenge the skilled rogue.it's really a beautiful trap, but like many others, timing can render it impotent (we shouldn't post how here)

i often wonder if this is intended or not. running through an active trap leads to quite the rush, but then again, you'd think most traps would at least get one hit off no matter how you timed it.

Balkas
04-23-2007, 10:16 AM
it's really a beautiful trap, but like many others, timing can render it impotent (we shouldn't post how here)

The chest is locked.

Laith
04-23-2007, 10:18 AM
The chest is locked.
game, set, match.

Conejo
04-23-2007, 10:44 AM
But, that's why we have the other chest in there, meant to adequately challenge the skilled rogue.

i don't know about adequately. i've seen a lot of complaining about that trap.

Coldin
04-23-2007, 10:50 AM
i don't know about adequately. i've seen a lot of complaining about that trap.

I think a rogue to find that trap has to be completely min/maxed in terms of searching skill. We're talking high Int, +5 skill boosts, +4 rogue search skill from enhancements, Skill:Focus search, at least +10 search gear, and some buffs on top of that too.

It's far from being adequately skilled.

MysticTheurge
04-23-2007, 10:56 AM
It's far from being adequately skilled.

He didn't say "challenge the adequately skilled rogue" he said "adequately challenge the skilled rogue."

Talcyndl
04-23-2007, 10:57 AM
I think a rogue to find that trap has to be completely min/maxed in terms of searching skill. We're talking high Int, +5 skill boosts, +4 rogue search skill from enhancements, Skill:Focus search, at least +10 search gear, and some buffs on top of that too.

It's far from being adequately skilled.

I haven't seen exact DCs posted on that chest, but in my experience on normal, the Search DC is above 40.

Talcyndl
04-23-2007, 11:00 AM
Now, we know that 9 out of 10 times you're going to want the chest

Thanks for the response. I think realistically speaking, it's probably more like 99 out of 100. The only groups I've heard about (intentionally) choosing the trap path are a couple organized by rogues who wanted to figure out the trap DCs.

I can't see any other group - whether they have a rogue or not - giving up a high end chest for 1 or 2,000 XP.

But I like the whole "choices have consequences" design philosophy. Just disagree on the implimentation here.

Coldin
04-23-2007, 11:02 AM
So he did. But the wording doesn't really change the point. An adequate challenge to a skilled rogue shouldn't be impossible to find for most rogues on Normal.

I still think it's ridiculously high.

MysticTheurge
04-23-2007, 11:05 AM
So he did. But the wording doesn't really change the point. An adequate challenge to a skilled rogue shouldn't be impossible to find for most rogues on Normal.

I disagree.

If it were open-able by most rogues then it wouldn't be an adequate challenge for the really skilled ones.

There's got to be some varying degrees of difficulty, this one's simply on the high end of things.

Coldin
04-23-2007, 11:18 AM
I disagree.

If it were open-able by most rogues then it wouldn't be an adequate challenge for the really skilled ones.

There's got to be some varying degrees of difficulty, this one's simply on the high end of things.

Well frankly, I think the whole reason that trap is so high is because of all the rogues complaining about multi-classers being able to successfully find and disable all the traps.

But even then, you still don't need that min/maxed elf rogue to find that trap. All you need is someone to pick the lock. The lock DC isn't that high for anyone with +10 OL gear and maxed ranks. They can just re-try it till they get a high enough roll.

The thing is, if that trap is so hard to find on normal, it only gets exponentially as high as the difficulty goes up. No rogue is going to be able to find that trap unless they're completely to the trap smithing roll, have the extra racial search enhancements, skill focus, and all sorts of other help. Even then I don't think people will be finding it.

It's very frustrating when you're a rogue, and devoted quite a few enhancements to your search skill, and are just barely scraping by.

MysticTheurge
04-23-2007, 11:21 AM
It's very frustrating when you're a rogue, and devoted quite a few enhancements to your search skill, and are just barely scraping by.

Maybe I just don't see how not being able to find one trap means you're "just barely scraping by."

Laith
04-23-2007, 11:29 AM
Maybe I just don't see how not being able to find one trap means you're "just barely scraping by."seeing as "just barely scraping by" is saying "can find/disable the hardest traps around", i don't see the problem.

personally, i'm happy that there is a benefit from focusing your rogue in trap-monkeying. before 3.3/mod4, i'd always wonder what the heck they thought they were gaining. of course, it's also great that such rogues aren't "required" in any quest.

Starspawn
04-23-2007, 11:35 AM
Well frankly, I think the whole reason that trap is so high is because of all the rogues complaining about multi-classers being able to successfully find and disable all the traps.

But even then, you still don't need that min/maxed elf rogue to find that trap. All you need is someone to pick the lock. The lock DC isn't that high for anyone with +10 OL gear and maxed ranks. They can just re-try it till they get a high enough roll.

The thing is, if that trap is so hard to find on normal, it only gets exponentially as high as the difficulty goes up. No rogue is going to be able to find that trap unless they're completely to the trap smithing roll, have the extra racial search enhancements, skill focus, and all sorts of other help. Even then I don't think people will be finding it.

It's very frustrating when you're a rogue, and devoted quite a few enhancements to your search skill, and are just barely scraping by.

I agree with this. This trap is going to be difficult for even the trap monkey builds to find the control box. I had a search of 42 and I couldn't locate the box to disarm the trap.

16 Ranks
11 Goggles
2 Search Enhancement
4 Greater Heroism
5 Rogue Action Boost
4 Intelligence

I'm a dwarf so I don't get more racial enhancements until dragonmarks go in. I suppose I could eek out another 2 to max out my search enhancement. I already wear a +4 intelligence helm. I don't have a bard in my hip pocket to inspire me. Rogues don't have lots of feats to waste specializing even more in trap monkeying.

I thought I was pretty well situated to find stuff (and haven't had a problem in the past with finding control boxes) but this one threw me for a loop. I think the high intelligence elven Wizard/Rogues are the best search rogues now with the higher search skill needed.

Laith
04-23-2007, 11:47 AM
I agree with this. This trap is going to be difficult for even the trap monkey builds to find the control box. I had a search of 42 and I couldn't locate the box to disarm the trap.

16 Ranks
11 Goggles
2 Search Enhancement
4 Greater Heroism
5 Rogue Action Boost
4 Intelligence

I'm a dwarf so I don't get more racial enhancements until dragonmarks go in. I suppose I could eek out another 2 to max out my search enhancement. I already wear a +4 intelligence helm. I don't have a bard in my hip pocket to inspire me. Rogues don't have lots of feats to waste specializing even more in trap monkeying. as you mentioned, there's a bit more that you could do if you really want to claim focus in trap skills.
to add to the list:
sf: search (+3), prayer (clicky/spell/scroll +1 all skills), find traps (scroll, +1 search), rabbit gloves (+1 skills), and coming soon "way of the mechanic" (+2 trap skills) to name a few.

Jakuren
04-23-2007, 12:44 PM
There has to be obstacles in the game that not everyone can do. I enjoy the fact that I have a rogue that is primarily based around doing things only a rogue can do, but I haven't maxed him to the point that it is the highest it can be. I can't find the trapbox with my rogue, and I'm fine with that, but the rogue that is specked for finding this and can do it, this person should be proud. But then now there are things my rogue can do that this other rogue can't do.

It's an adventure based game, and every choice you make should have an impact on the quest. This quest is a step in the right direction, you have choices to make on how you want to complete the quest. There needs to be more of these in the game. Where the make-up of your party determines how its going to be run. Make more quests that throughout you can bribe certain NPC's or use diplomacy, or negotiate. Put the other skills to work instead of always focusing on how we are going to fight the next encounter. This update added some of these features. I can't wait until there is more like this. Give us other choices besides charge the mobs or pull the mobs.

Aspenor
04-23-2007, 12:46 PM
I ran this yesterday with my rogue several times, and I completely ignored all the traps. We got all the chests. Did I miss something?

Talcyndl
04-23-2007, 12:50 PM
It's an adventure based game, and every choice you make should have an impact on the quest. This quest is a step in the right direction, you have choices to make on how you want to complete the quest. There needs to be more of these in the game. Where the make-up of your party determines how its going to be run. Make more quests that throughout you can bribe certain NPC's or use diplomacy, or negotiate. Put the other skills to work instead of always focusing on how we are going to fight the next encounter. This update added some of these features. I can't wait until there is more like this. Give us other choices besides charge the mobs or pull the mobs.

I agree with the thought. I just think in this quest in particular there is really only one choice that pretty much every party is going to make - whether they have a rogue or not. It is going to be the very, very, very...rare group that will give up a high level chest for some small bump in xp and a slightly eaiser end fight.

Talcyndl
04-23-2007, 12:52 PM
I ran this yesterday with my rogue several times, and I completely ignored all the traps. We got all the chests. Did I miss something?

Not sure what you mean by "ignored."

When you talk to the guy at the beginning, you have two choices. If you trust him, he disarms all the traps for you (other than the hidden door ones). If you don't, you fight him there and the traps are not disarmed.

With the second option, he is absent from the last fight (because you already killed him). But his chest is also absent.

Aspenor
04-23-2007, 12:52 PM
I agree with the thought. I just think in this quest in particular there is really only one choice that pretty much every party is going to make - whether they have a rogue or not. It is going to be the very, very, very...rare group that will give up a high level chest for some small bump in xp and a slightly eaiser end fight.

Refresh my memory...what chest are you talking about? Ran this repeatedly yesterday and got 3 chests every time. I disabled exactly zero traps (because we just ran through so fast there was no point to disabling). How do you lose out on anything?

Aspenor
04-23-2007, 12:56 PM
ohh okay, gotcha. I guess maybe the guy leading the charge through the quests did this conversation, because the non-secret door traps weren't there. The only one I noticed was the trap on the chest, which didn't stop us from looting it (although I didn't even bother to search for it I just ran in, grabbed the chest and ran out).

By "ignore" I meant just that....I ignored the traps. My spot was going off all day and I think I disabled maybe 4 or 5 traps. I guess I've just stopped caring about my "role" or something.

Talcyndl
04-23-2007, 12:56 PM
Refresh my memory...what chest are you talking about? Ran this repeatedly yesterday and got 3 chests every time. I disabled exactly zero traps (because we just ran through so fast there was no point to disabling). How do you lose out on anything?

Then your group selected the dialog option of the guy disarming all the traps. Just like pretty much every group will.

Aspenor
04-23-2007, 01:01 PM
Then your group selected the dialog option of the guy disarming all the traps. Just like pretty much every group will.

Yup, I figured that out eventually. It seems to me to be pretty obvious the intended route through the dungeon is to get him to trust you and disable the traps for you then....

Jakuren
04-23-2007, 01:02 PM
I agree with the thought. I just think in this quest in particular there is really only one choice that pretty much every party is going to make - whether they have a rogue or not. It is going to be the very, very, very...rare group that will give up a high level chest for some small bump in xp and a slightly eaiser end fight.


Very true, most people will choose to do more fighting and get the end chest. But now there is a reason for the Uberest of uber rogues to feel proud of their build that they can find a trap that most others can't.

I also enjoy the fact that this chest can't be knocked. There needs to be times where there is a need for a certain build to complete some extra thing in a quest. The build shouldn't be needed to complete the quest, but should be needed to gain something extra. I've been in groups where we went through the quest completed it, and someone grabbed their rogue to get this last locked chest. Now in my opinion you are wasting my time by recalling getting your rogue running out here and getting that chest. If we wanted that locked chest from the beginning we should have brought a rogue. But I wasn't the leader.

They need to keep these choices coming: Superbly high strength to bust down door. Huge charisma based skill to charm NPC. A great wisdom or int to solve a riddle to unlock a secret room. There needs to be little extra rewards throughout the game for specialized builds. But remember what they gain for being able to do these specialized tasks, they lose out in other areas.

Talcyndl
04-23-2007, 01:03 PM
Yup, I figured that out eventually. It seems to me to be pretty obvious the intended route through the dungeon is to get him to trust you and disable the traps for you then....

Kinda my point I guess. But if you look at the two Developer posts here, they intended this to be a real choice - where at least some reasonable number of groups would go the 'have the rogue disarm the traps' route. I don't think that's going to happen.

Talcyndl
04-23-2007, 01:07 PM
But now there is a reason for the Uberest of uber rogues to feel proud of their build that they can find a trap that most others can't.


I'm all for this. I just don't think many rogues are really going to be proud of costing the group a nice chest. I know I would never ask any group to let me disarm the traps when it will cost them all some potentially nice items.

Oh well...

Jakuren
04-23-2007, 01:14 PM
I'm all for this. I just don't think many rogues are really going to be proud of costing the group a nice chest. I know I would never ask any group to let me disarm the traps when it will cost them all some potentially nice items.

Oh well...

True, and thats why there is guilds that help out other players when there is a time they want to try something. But as you say, the best way to run this quest is to run it on elite, with a rogue, have the NPC do the traps and get all 3 chests. I see this as the win win situation.

Coldin
04-23-2007, 02:26 PM
I suppose I need to revise my post. When I mentioned "barely scrapping by" that was more in reference to Cabal for One as an entire quest. Ran it on elite just a few days ago, and I was just barely able to search out the boxes using a skill boost. What was worse though, was the Disable DC. It was at 60. Since I could only get up to a 48 Disable with boosting, I blew up about half the boxes due to bad rolls. Luckily the group I was in just laughed it off. Rogue's blowing up trap boxes can seriously hurt a reputation.

I'll live with the higher DCs. I'll find a +13 search item, and take the way of the mechanic enhancement coming. I'll be able to cope with the insanely high DCs.

It's just my opinion that the whole trap system has swung way too far to the high side.

DNDJESS
04-23-2007, 04:48 PM
I think you guys are forgetting to mention that there's another chest in this quest which you practically need a rogue to open.

Good point.


Also, like ElDorudo mentioned, We wanted to give players a choice, because you're always asking why none of the choices you make affect anything. Well, now some of your choices do make a difference, and you're forced to choose wisely. Do you want more XP because you brought a Rogue.

I think this would be a good idea for a lower level quest. But for a high-end quest, most people won't need, or care about, exp at this point, and will ALWAYS pass up 10% experience for more loot. I guarantee it's alot more than 9 out of 10.

MysticTheurge
04-23-2007, 04:50 PM
I think this would be a good idea for a lower level quest. But for a high-end quest, most people won't need, or care about, exp at this point, and will ALWAYS pass up 10% experience for more loot. I guarantee it's alot more than 9 out of 10.

The quest will only be "high-end" for so long.

You have to consider not only the quests place in the current content, but in the (eventual) total content. Will a character leveling up a 13-15th level character pass up the XP when the level cap is 20?

Talcyndl
04-23-2007, 05:00 PM
The quest will only be "high-end" for so long.

You have to consider not only the quests place in the current content, but in the (eventual) total content. Will a character leveling up a 13-15th level character pass up the XP when the level cap is 20?

In return for a chest, yes. The XP is only 10% of the quest total after all.

Conejo
04-23-2007, 05:07 PM
The quest will only be "high-end" for so long.

You have to consider not only the quests place in the current content, but in the (eventual) total content. Will a character leveling up a 13-15th level character pass up the XP when the level cap is 20?

considering how good the XP is on all the OTHER quests in the Gianthold?

yes, every time, except maybe the first time on elite.

Starspawn
04-23-2007, 05:14 PM
as you mentioned, there's a bit more that you could do if you really want to claim focus in trap skills.
to add to the list:
sf: search (+3), prayer (clicky/spell/scroll +1 all skills), find traps (scroll, +1 search), rabbit gloves (+1 skills), and coming soon "way of the mechanic" (+2 trap skills) to name a few.

As I mentioned, there is a few things I can do to eek out another couple bonuses. I realize that. However, I already had SF: Disable and SF: Use Magic. Now I have to add a feat SF: Search to my trapmonkey list. And the Kundarak Dragon mark when it comes out. That's four feats of the five a pure rogue gets.

Prayer is a luck bonus which doesn't stack with the Rabbit gloves if I remember correctly (I'm not sure since I haven't had the Rabbit gloves ever drop for me).

"Way of the Mechanic" isn't out yet but I will be getting that when available as I will with the Kundarak search line when it is available.

I wasn't aware the find traps scrolls enhanced me but I can go get a stack of them for the future. Thanks for that tip.

My point was that the Search seems high even for those of us who are "specializing" as trapmonkeys. I don't like that only extremely high intelligence Wizard/rogues (especially elf wizard/rogues) can find the control boxes for the most elite traps.

DNDJESS
04-23-2007, 05:23 PM
In return for a chest, yes. The XP is only 10% of the quest total after all.

Actually, it's only 10% of the base exp, which certainly isn't incentive enough to pass up a chest.

I've only done this quest once so I'm not sure, but I have to question the exploitability of this. When exactly does the chest become inaccessable? Is it after you disarm the first trap, or the last? I'm wondering if it's possible to get either 10% or 7% disarm bonus and just leave 1 or 2 traps alone and still get the chest.

MysticTheurge
04-23-2007, 05:29 PM
So you guys are saying, to use a comparable example, that you wouldn't give up one chest in stormcleave for an extra 10% XP?

It'll be sort of the same scenario (only higher level characters) once we reach a level cap of 20.

I mean, I know when I'm leveling up alts, they have most of the things they could possibly want. XP is far more important to me at that point than another chest that's 6 levels lower than the ones my Main has access to.

Starspawn
04-23-2007, 05:45 PM
Actually, it's only 10% of the base exp, which certainly isn't incentive enough to pass up a chest.

I've only done this quest once so I'm not sure, but I have to question the exploitability of this. When exactly does the chest become inaccessable? Is it after you disarm the first trap, or the last? I'm wondering if it's possible to get either 10% or 7% disarm bonus and just leave 1 or 2 traps alone and still get the chest.

It's before you get to disarm any of the traps. It's a conversation you have. Either you choose to fight a boss at the beginning (and he doesn't drop a chest) and then disarm your way through the traps to fight the boss at the end (who does spawn a chest) or choose to have the first boss disarm all the traps (save one) for you and then you fight 2 bosses at the end who both spawn chests.

binnsr
04-23-2007, 05:49 PM
At the cost of *a lot* of action points and a feat, a [drow/elven] rogue with a 16 starting Int can get a search of 60. (presuming premium gear)

17 Ranks
+8 Int bonus (16 base +2 level-up +2 tome +6 item =26)
+2 drow search enhancement
+3 skill focus: search
+4 Elven Perception IV
+4 Rogue Search IV
+13 Minute Seeing item (are +15 items confirmed available yet as RR?)
= 51 standing
+4 Greater Heroism (Morale Bonus)
+2 Inspire Confidence (Competence Bonus)
+2 Recitation (Luck Bonus - overrides rabbit gloves/prayer)
+1 Find Traps scroll (Insight Bonus)
= 60 full buff

The same rogue's DD (this would require another 2 feats)
17 Ranks
+8 Int (see above)
+3 Skill Focus: Disable Devices
+2 Nimble Fingers
+2 Rogue Disable Device II
+13 Disable Device Item
+7 +5 thieves tools
= 52 standing
+4 Greater Heroism (Morale Bonus)
+2 Inspire Confidence (Competence Bonus)
+2 Recitation (Luck Bonus - overrides rabbit gloves/prayer)
= 60 full buff

Spot would be 42/50 and OL would be 50/58 (no Skill Focus for these, same equipment assumptions)

All of the enhancements listed are available to a lvl14.4 pure rogue
Elven Perception I (1)
Elven Keen Eyes I (2)
Rogue Disable Device I (3)
Rogue Search I (4)
Rogue Open Lock I (5)
Rogue Spot I (6)
Elven Dexterity I (8)
Rogue Dexterity I (10)
Elven Perception II (12)
Elven Keen Eyes II (14)
Rogue Disable Device II (16)
Rogue Open Lock II (18)
Rogue Search II (20)
Rogue Spot II (22)
Rogue Dexterity II (26)
Elven Perception III (29)
Elven Dexterity II (33)
Elven Keen Eyes III (36)
Rogue Search III (39)
Rogue Spot III (42)
Elven Perception IV (46)
Elven Keen Eyes IV (50)
Rogue Search IV (54)



Perhaps this is why the Devs feel throwing in traps/doors with such high DCs

Starspawn
04-23-2007, 05:49 PM
So you guys are saying, to use a comparable example, that you wouldn't give up one chest in stormcleave for an extra 10% XP?

It depends on the number of traps. If you're talking about 6 or 8 traps, it isn't worth it for the group to wait for the rogue to disarm all the traps for that 10% xp when you can zerg through the quest quicker multiple times.

A better example would be Gwylan's Stand. If you had an option to have an NPC disarm all the traps and you got an extra chest at the end or you could leave it as is, how many groups would run it as is? I bet most would zerg through quicker and take the extra chest regardless of the xp bonus they got for disarming the chests.

Shade
04-23-2007, 05:51 PM
Now, we know that 9 out of 10 times you're going to want the chest, which in that quest means you may not bring a rogue. But, that's why we have the other chest in there, meant to adequately challenge the skilled rogue.

Really 9 times outa 10 I get both chests and never take a rogue, I take a multiclass, usualy bard, wizard or fighter with 1-2 rogue leves to pick the chest. Infact the guy I usualy take has only 1 rogue level and is pretty much pure fighter that can only do locks and has no disable device skill at all, he opens it easily.

Still doesn't make the proper pure or at least one that shows the rogue icon in the group an important member to bring to that quest. All too often the extra wizard/bard multiclass is far better.

Maybe fix the trap near that noted chests so that
A) It actually kills players who get the chest like a proper trap ala xorian cipher (this one is rather easy to time and run by) and
B) give it a trap box so it can be disabled.

That would convince me to take a rogue on the quest.

Starspawn
04-23-2007, 05:54 PM
At the cost of *a lot* of action points and a feat, a [drow/elven] rogue with a 16 starting Int can get a search of 60. (presuming premium gear)

17 Ranks
+8 Int bonus (16 base +2 level-up +2 tome +6 item =26)
+2 drow search enhancement
+3 skill focus: search
+4 Elven Perception IV
+4 Rogue Search IV
+13 Minute Seeing item (are +15 items confirmed available yet as RR?)
= 51 standing
+4 Greater Heroism (Morale Bonus)
+2 Inspire Confidence (Competence Bonus)
+2 Recitation (Luck Bonus - overrides rabbit gloves/prayer)
+1 Find Traps scroll (Insight Bonus)
= [B]60 full buff


You didn't throw in Rogue Action Boost? I suppose you couldn't fit it in with the enhancement points?

Starspawn
04-23-2007, 05:59 PM
Maybe fix the trap near that noted chests so that
A) It actually kills players who get the chest like a proper trap ala xorian cipher (this one is rather easy to time and run by) and
B) give it a trap box so it can be disabled.

That would convince me to take a rogue on the quest.

A) I don't mind it killing people who try to time the trap. Either it's disarmed or people die on the way in and out to get a chest (assuming there is a safe spot inside the trap to get rezzed to loot the chest like this one has).

B) There is a trap box but you need between a 43 and 47 search to locate it. That's why even rogues with maxed ranks in search and nearly maxed gear and enhancements still aren't finding it.

binnsr
04-23-2007, 06:02 PM
You didn't throw in Rogue Action Boost? I suppose you couldn't fit it in with the enhancement points?

Nope.. There just wasn't room for them, but if you sacrificed the OL and DD enhancements, you could get them to RAB III for another +3 and if you dropped both of the Dexterity II enhancements, you should be able to fit in RAB IV (maybe only 1 of them - I didn't run that scenario through the offline enhancement tool)

Coldin
04-23-2007, 06:04 PM
At the cost of *a lot* of action points and a feat, a [drow/elven] rogue with a 16 starting Int can get a search of 60. (presuming premium gear)

17 Ranks
+8 Int bonus (16 base +2 level-up +2 tome +6 item =26)
+2 drow search enhancement
+3 skill focus: search
+4 Elven Perception IV
+4 Rogue Search IV
+13 Minute Seeing item (are +15 items confirmed available yet as RR?)
= 51 standing
+4 Greater Heroism (Morale Bonus)
+2 Inspire Confidence (Competence Bonus)
+2 Recitation (Luck Bonus - overrides rabbit gloves/prayer)
+1 Find Traps scroll (Insight Bonus)
= 60 full buff

The same rogue's DD (this would require another 2 feats)
17 Ranks
+8 Int (see above)
+3 Skill Focus: Disable Devices
+2 Nimble Fingers
+2 Rogue Disable Device II
+13 Disable Device Item
+7 +5 thieves tools
= 52 standing
+4 Greater Heroism (Morale Bonus)
+2 Inspire Confidence (Competence Bonus)
+2 Recitation (Luck Bonus - overrides rabbit gloves/prayer)
= 60 full buff

Spot would be 42/50 and OL would be 50/58 (no Skill Focus for these, same equipment assumptions)

All of the enhancements listed are available to a lvl14.4 pure rogue
Elven Perception I (1)
Elven Keen Eyes I (2)
Rogue Disable Device I (3)
Rogue Search I (4)
Rogue Open Lock I (5)
Rogue Spot I (6)
Elven Dexterity I (8)
Rogue Dexterity I (10)
Elven Perception II (12)
Elven Keen Eyes II (14)
Rogue Disable Device II (16)
Rogue Open Lock II (18)
Rogue Search II (20)
Rogue Spot II (22)
Rogue Dexterity II (26)
Elven Perception III (29)
Elven Dexterity II (33)
Elven Keen Eyes III (36)
Rogue Search III (39)
Rogue Spot III (42)
Elven Perception IV (46)
Elven Keen Eyes IV (50)
Rogue Search IV (54)



Perhaps this is why the Devs feel throwing in traps/doors with such high DCs

So that's the min/maxed to the max. I don't think any rogue would devote so much effort to trapsmithing skills. Such a rogue would be pretty weak in all other areas.

6 points of search are Elf only. Most people have at best seen +5 int items, and then they tend to go in goggles, which is where search items generally go. +13 search gear is so rare, they're kinda like finding a tome in a chest atm. And most rogues aren't going to take skill focus search as they have so few feats to spend. A more realistic look would be like this. I'll even stay with an elf. :)

17 (ranks)
+2 Elf (Bonus)
+6 (16 Base, 2 Levels, 4 Foxes)
+2 Elven Perception
+3 Rogue Search
+11 Search Item
=
41 standing

Even then I think that's being a little generous. A non elf/drow rogue is going to have a terrible time getting that high, as you're losing 2-6 racial search.

I'm not saying it's impossible for rogues to get by, but it's tough, and I think any casual rogue going into Cabal for One on normal won't get close to seeing that trap.

binnsr
04-23-2007, 06:11 PM
Yes, my example was a bit over the top, but you have to do that in order to show a maximum, don't you?

I'll agree that your example is a much more likely scenario, and that what I posted wouldn't have the combat versatility that a more balanced rogue would have, but at the same time, if one were to dedicate themselves to being 'the uberest of the uber rogues' and had the time available to acquire that kind of gear, it is possible.

Gimpster
04-23-2007, 06:20 PM
So you guys are saying, to use a comparable example, that you wouldn't give up one chest in stormcleave for an extra 10% XP?

It'll be sort of the same scenario (only higher level characters) once we reach a level cap of 20.
But we're not AT a level cap of 20. We're at a level cap of 14, and in a high-XP environment where many characters will have accidently hit the XP cap before even setting foot in the Hobgoblin Lair.


So you guys are saying, to use a comparable example, that you wouldn't give up one chest in stormcleave for an extra 10% XP?
It's not "one chest for 10% XP".

It's "one chest and one more named monster" versus "a lot of high DC traps that could give +10% XP if you disarm them". From the number of traps, and the difficulty of locating the boxes, and the need to have a rogue, it will probably make the quest take more than 10% more time just to disarm them all.

Gimpster
04-23-2007, 06:23 PM
+2 Recitation (Luck Bonus - overrides rabbit gloves/prayer)
Recitation gives no bonus to skills. Otherwise, I'd use it in town for haggling (and the fact that it's uncastable in town would be more irritating).

However, it is possible to get a +2 luck bonus to skills if you have the Staff of Arcane Power, which can be equipped (with UMD) before you search.

Solmage
04-23-2007, 10:56 PM
Also, like ElDorudo mentioned, We wanted to give players a choice, because you're always asking why none of the choices you make affect anything. Well, now some of your choices do make a difference, and you're forced to choose wisely. Do you want more XP because you brought a Rogue. Do you want the end fight to be a little easier because you don't have a full group? Do you not have a rogue in the group, and don't want to deal with traps? Do you simply want another chest? These are questions we wanted players to ask themselves.


My point is that right now the choice is meaningless. You need to make the second boss spawn in with a significant team of his own, ideally from behind as ambush, thus making the last battle MUCH MUCH harder, instead of lasting the extra 2-4 seconds that it does now.

My other point was that having to wait for the bloody rogue to disarm all the traps is annoying, just for 10% more exp AND loosing a chest. If the choice were between a very hard extra encounter or a lot of traps, that would be a good, meaningful choice, which people would ponder about, specially if the extra encounter were REALLY tough.

So ideally, leave the two chests at the end, and just jack up the difficulty of the extra battle by a heck of a lot. Making 6 totally twinked level 14s on elite feel like they just fought something epic which they could have avoided at the cost of disarming every durn trap, and then you have a fun choice. I'm thinking 4-6 melee blocking access to their squishies, 6 archers, 6 support healers with enlarged healing from afar, some offensive casters... (ok maybe thats too hardcore and would wipe 98% of all groups.. but you get the idea)



I think you guys are forgetting to mention that there's another chest in this quest which you practically need a rogue to open. [...]that's why we have the other chest in there, meant to adequately challenge the skilled rogue.


Yeah but see, this is NOT a good thing and a very bad trend. So now all evasion melee will have max ranks in open locks if you keep this up. Yay you.

We fought as hard as anyone else and we are entitled to the same reward. Even if you put a sign before the quest that said "You need a rogue of min level X who has a +10 open locks items to get full treasure" it would still be unfair. But without the sign it's just terrible.

Some more thoughts:


Having a choice between a hard fight and the way of the disarmer is a good thing to choose.
Having the choice between no chest and yes chest is a BAD choice to have.
Instead of trying to force rogues unto parties try to make them very desirable WITHOUT their traps and locks skills. Work from there. Ehh, I'll give you a head-start:
It's ridiculous that FIGHTERS and DWARVES have enhancements to get more AC from dexterity in armor yet the totally dex based races and professions don't, specially elves and rogues, but also halflings and rangers. Some need to have those removed or adjusted to be heavy armor only, some need to have those added for light armors.
Coupe-de-grace sleeping creatures without leaving the shadows, so you can send the rogue ahead to kill all the enemies without waking up anyone.
SAP should only work from hiding with a blunt melee weapon. If it succeeds a creature would be knocked unconscious for a while until it's attacked, where it would be allowed to make a save at +5 to try to wake up. Each new save would be progressively easier to make. The DC of SAP would be helped by rogue or ranger levels / 2. It would also NOT break stealth, so you could send in the rogue or ranger in ahead to 'take down' a few enemies to make the next encounter easier.
Stunning blow's DC could be affected by rogue levels by creating the feat "Stunning Ambush" or "Stunning Sneak Attack"
Ability to 'disarm' runes to turn them into INT/CHA/WIS runes as desired or just deactivate them all together.
Etc.

D&D Allows a multiclass rogue to be as good as a full rogue in roguish skills. Kindly stick to that. What's next, melee only for the fighters, ranged only for the rangers, and magic & magic items only for mages? Like I said, make them desirable even if they had 0 disarm and open locks skill.
Heighten should work on knock. Also, a knock roll of 20 should be an automatic success. In D&D it's ALWAYS an automatic success for this spell without a roll at all. A 1 in 20 chance is not too much to ask in DDO. (Ie open it at the expense of a lot of mana).
Speed of disarming and picking locks should depend on the skill. It's one thing to have just barely enough skill to open or disarm something, than to be able to do it in your sleep.
Elves should have an automatic instant search check whenever they walk close to a wall, as if they had cast detect hidden doors, except with a hidden skill check.
Particularly perceptive people should see glowy thingies floating above the trapbox or any other important items. (It's embarrassing to have searched out the trap box, yet not be able to 'find' it - and it's also damn annoying). Instead of jacking up the difficulty to spot a trap, make it hard to spot the randomly but well hidden trapbox without good skill.
Traps should be more annoying. Barbarians and other melees who are used to thinking that it doesn't matter if they get hurt cause someone will babysit them, don't care about running through traps. Once capped they don't even care about dying. So add teleport to the beginning of the dungeon traps. Also teleport to one of 6 random locations, all with nasty creatures. Have fun recalling and walking back in. OR you could let the perceptive scout guy actually, I don't know, SCOUT.
Once capped, you guys need to find something to make experience still count for something. Too bad you didn't implement the standard PnP Action Points and instead went with static enhancements.. that way you could keep earning action points with experience to spend for some extraordinary prowess when truly needed. So now you need to come up with something we can use experience for, so that it's not trivial to die. Casters could scribe at level bound scrolls with their innate DC for their own use in exchange for XP, but that still leaves all other classes in need of something to do.



Ok, this is long enough. If I keep rambling, noone will read it. As it is, it's questionable if anyone will. Hopefully a bored dev. :)

Conejo
04-24-2007, 06:14 AM
So you guys are saying, to use a comparable example, that you wouldn't give up one chest in stormcleave for an extra 10% XP?

It'll be sort of the same scenario (only higher level characters) once we reach a level cap of 20.

I mean, I know when I'm leveling up alts, they have most of the things they could possibly want. XP is far more important to me at that point than another chest that's 6 levels lower than the ones my Main has access to.

the base xp is what, like 5,000?
so 10% would be roughly 500.

would people pass up 500xp every time for a chest?

in a heartbeat.

know why? they can make up 1,200 just by killing about 50 creatures in Slayer mode just outside the quest.

Talcyndl
04-24-2007, 09:23 AM
the base xp is what, like 5,000?
so 10% would be roughly 500.

would people pass up 500xp every time for a chest?

in a heartbeat.

know why? they can make up 1,200 just by killing about 50 creatures in Slayer mode just outside the quest.

Not to mention that extra XP comes at the cost of a MUCH slower quest because everyone has to wait for the rogue to disarm all the traps.

Ziggy
04-24-2007, 09:28 AM
So ideally, leave the two chests at the end, and just jack up the difficulty of the extra battle by a heck of a lot. Making 6 totally twinked level 14s on elite feel like they just fought something epic which they could have avoided at the cost of disarming every durn trap, and then you have a fun choice. I'm thinking 4-6 melee blocking access to their squishies, 6 archers, 6 support healers with enlarged healing from afar, some offensive casters... (ok maybe thats too hardcore and would wipe 98% of all groups.. but you get the idea)

all this will do if the chest is still there at the end is give people reason to beat him down first and then get extra experience AND the 2nd chest.


people will not have him get rid of the traps if the chest will still be there and you will have an easier fight.

its the exact same choice you say they dont have now. noone will choose to have those traps disabled because it will be an easier fight and they will a)get the 10% bonus and b) get the extra chest.

Balkas
04-24-2007, 09:32 AM
+13 Minute Seeing item (are +15 items confirmed available yet as RR?)


My guild has at least one +15 Search item.

MysticTheurge
04-24-2007, 09:33 AM
Not to mention that extra XP comes at the cost of a MUCH slower quest because everyone has to wait for the rogue to disarm all the traps.

Oh alright, you've all convinced me. I'd never let a rogue disarm these traps. :o

Conejo
04-24-2007, 10:12 AM
Oh alright, you've all convinced me. I'd never let a rogue disarm these traps. :o

the first time i went through this, it was as my rogue.
the choice had been made for me to disable the traps, but i wasn't aware of it.

i was very sad when i saw all these traps that i didn't get to break, but then i was informed that those traps came at the expense of an extra chest at the end.

i wasn't sad anymore, i was bewildered at the obvious non-choice we were given.

addendum: since we know Devs are looking at this thread:

i propose a change to the option:
2 max chests available.
if you chose to disable traps, you get the one uber-trap chest. (but not the second end chest) [make this choice, and lower the search DC to 40]
if you chose to have the guy disable traps, you get his chest at the end (but not the trap chest)

that means you decide which chest you'd like to get, but now you're not stuck with the "500xp or level 13+ chest" faux-option.

Shrazkil
04-24-2007, 06:56 PM
I think a rogue to find that trap has to be completely min/maxed in terms of searching skill. We're talking high Int, +5 skill boosts, +4 rogue search skill from enhancements, Skill:Focus search, at least +10 search gear, and some buffs on top of that too.

It's far from being adequately skilled.

Typical rogue = 17 skill search , +5 int bonus , +10 search item, +2 search enhance , +4 boost , +4 greater heroism = 40 search

That should be enough i think. Realistically most rogues should be much higher in the search then this.

Coldin
04-24-2007, 07:19 PM
Typical rogue = 17 skill search , +5 int bonus , +10 search item, +2 search enhance , +4 boost , +4 greater heroism = 40 search

That should be enough i think. Realistically most rogues should be much higher in the search then this.

Given that layout, a rogue is only going to get a 40 search 5 times then. Then they're back to a 36 search till they can get a shrine. And if they're using their skill boosts for other things, like scrolls or the actual trap boxes, you have even less boosts. I don't think you're going to see rogue much higher than that either unless 11+ search items start becoming more common. You can't expect to always have a bard with you singing Inspire Competence.

That +4 search boost is expensive too. If a rogue wants to do more than just disable traps, they may not be taking +4 skill boost. They may settle for a +3, boost sneak attack damage and attack bonus, or maybe take the other rogue boosts.

In that quote by the way, I was referring to that one trap behind the secret door, and more specifically the higher difficulty levels.

MeCrazy
05-01-2007, 12:10 PM
i'm pretty sure luck bonus stacks with other luck bonus

MysticTheurge
05-01-2007, 12:53 PM
i'm pretty sure luck bonus stacks with other luck bonus

It does not. The only bonuses that act like this are dodge and circumstance bonuses.

ORCRiST
05-01-2007, 01:24 PM
With "A Cabal for One", we wanted to give you a choice and depending on your choice you would get a slightly different outcome. Of course, your first time through you won't know what your outcome will be, but on subsequent visits you can make the decision between xp and loot. The traps are challenging, but adding another tough boss to the end encounter is even more tough I believe, hence the extra chest for that path.


I think you guys are forgetting to mention that there's another chest in this quest which you practically need a rogue to open.

Also, like ElDorudo mentioned, We wanted to give players a choice, because you're always asking why none of the choices you make affect anything. Well, now some of your choices do make a difference, and you're forced to choose wisely. Do you want more XP because you brought a Rogue. Do you want the end fight to be a little easier because you don't have a full group? Do you not have a rogue in the group, and don't want to deal with traps? Do you simply want another chest? These are questions we wanted players to ask themselves.

Now, we know that 9 out of 10 times you're going to want the chest, which in that quest means you may not bring a rogue. But, that's why we have the other chest in there, meant to adequately challenge the skilled rogue.

All I have to say Devs, is W T F? Seriously.

You told us (the rogues that play DDO) that Spot and Search DC's were going up with mod 3, and trap DC's were going down. Fine. Got it.

The new enchancment system came out, and we changed our characters to reflect that change. Check.

The trap DC's on 'Cabal of One' on Elite are insane and not realistic according to standards and expectations SET by Turbine. Newsflash guys: we have a finite number of skill points and enhancement points to use.

Yes, I could sink every skill and enhancement point to Disable Device and DD-based synergistic skills to have a decent (50/50) chance to hit a trap DC of 65 on a consistant basis... And then, there would have to be another character class along specializing in Spot and Search just to find the traps I might be able to disarm.

The only problem with that is then my rogue becomes absolutley USELESS in day-to-day adventuring (i.e. combat, search, spot, etc. (never mind the DDO red-headed stepchildren of Hide & Move Silently). I've seen the new enhancement lines for rogues, none of which I'll touch. Most of the rogues have shifted emphasis to spot and search because you forced us to. Now this bait and switch BS?

Now before everyone gets their pantaloon's in a bunch, I realize this is ONE adventure, an Elite level 15 one at that, and obviously a party has a choice what path they want to take. What I'd like to know is what you expect Rogues to do down the road? 14th level is a little late to have the rules changed on us again. So tell me, how do you want me to play my rogue? You obviously have hidden requirements that aren't known to us, or is this one adventure (I hope) an exception - or will the insanity continue to higher levels?

If you want to continue the madness then give us the ability to straight out buy a +6 INT item, and +13 DD, Search, and Spot items as well as the ability to cast greater heroism by ourselves, etc., etc., etc... Maybe the Free Agents will start selling +13 thieve's tools...?

ORC

Ghost_Aeon
05-01-2007, 10:07 PM
With "A Cabal for One", we wanted to give you a choice and depending on your choice you would get a slightly different outcome. Of course, your first time through you won't know what your outcome will be, but on subsequent visits you can make the decision between xp and loot. The traps are challenging, but adding another tough boss to the end encounter is even more tough I believe, hence the extra chest for that path.

Actually, with current mechanics, every group I've run with ends up with a trapless run and we always end up pulling a single boss to the door, then having the double-crosser all by himself (or with a lone glacial wolf). IMO, the OP is right thet you're punishing us for taking the harder route.

Since it's already been spoiled, if he's going to double cross you and the hobbes are exploring (presumadly without fear of being caught), it seems to me a more logical approach is that the hobbes have the traps disabled so they don't accidenlty fry themselves. If you kill Gardak at the start, he's unable to warn them, so they're caught unaware and with the traps disabled. Since the switch for his chest is on the other side of the secret door, there's no way for us to open it.

Conversely, if you decide to take his ''help'', you find out real quick he double crossed you since he now had the time to warn everyone so they arm the traps and prepair for your arrival. Harder challenge and an extra chest at the end.

This gives a better choice between quick and easy with less chests or slow and harder with more chests.

ORCRiST
05-03-2007, 11:31 AM
I would love an answer...

ORC

Runyant
06-19-2007, 09:57 PM
I just want to ring in on the debate quickly. I have a level 14 pure rogue and I'm a bit bummed out that I still cannot find the trap box on elite. The only possible way I could do this would have been for me to dump all my ability points into INT. I rejected that notion--and spread them across wisdom, DEX (for weapon finesse, open lock, and tumble--all good rogue abilities) and INT. I will never be able to reach a DC of 61.

Raising DC checks super-high punishes pure rogues who have varied rogue abilities like mine, and benefits multi-classed rogues--such as High Intel Wiz/Rogue mixes. Instead of taking one DC dependent an INT and raising it super high, the developers should simply raise all DC checks across the board to higher levels (but not extreme ones). This benefits pure rogues by 1) ensuring that not only can they spot the trap, find the trap, disarm the trap--but also be the one to unlock the trap! Rogues aren't supposed to be walking INT-bots. Dex and Wis are also in their build, so the game should respect that. Raising the unlock DC will ensure that rogues have both high Dex, and high Int, as well as spend enhancement points in search and unlock. Otherwise, its pointless.

Developers need to realize they set an earmark of performance with these traps. If a level 15 quest needs a Search of 61--that means that all rogues are going to attempt to reach that--especially for the next level cap. That makes rogues even more useless and pretty much un-fun.

Note earlier in the thread that the wiz/rogue build was able to find the trap on elite with no problems. no surprise there--undoubtedly with a maxed out wazoo INT skill. That might be a fun wiz build--but that's not necessarily a reasonable/fun rogue build. Geez, what happened to first and second addition AD&D when INT didn't matter for search checks?

Balthazar_No_Oni
06-19-2007, 11:08 PM
Wow!!!

Someone took spell focus and greater spell focus necromancy didnt they!!! Someone loves there create undead spell dont they ;)

xanrez
06-20-2007, 02:12 AM
Ok the quest is level 14,elite bumps it to level 16.Level 14 rogues SHOULD have trouble finding this trapped door.If/when we get to level 16 and rogues are still having trouble finding it,THEN something should be done.People keep forgetting that elite is SUPPOSED to raise the difficulty.

Conejo
06-20-2007, 06:17 AM
Geez, what happened to first and second addition AD&D when INT didn't matter for search checks?

it was replaced by third edition that has a more even hand at distributing skills based on their primary stat.

peavey
06-20-2007, 08:20 AM
I have a maxed out Ftr/Rng/Rog that can hit a search of 53 with skill boost and a Greater Heroism.
The only problem is the DC on the seardh to find the box, is 54.
I ran threnal 6 times before I saw those stupid gloves that I had to get to find this trap.
Now I can hit it, without a "bard in my pocket" and disarm the trap, and open the lock here.
I have 4 levels of rogue, 2 levels of fighter, and 8 levels of ranger, and am also Drow.
I use the ranger skill boost, ranger search, and elf search enhancements, giantcraft syberis compass(+13 search), rabbit gloves, and have taken as many skill points as my build would allow.(Honestly though, level 13+14 all of my skill points were spent on umd and search).
I have no find traps scrolls (I will be using them now as I see they have a purpose), I have never seen recitation affect any of my skills when I have a greater heroism, and I started with a 16 INT.
So this brings me to this, why is it that pure rogus are having a hard time finding this trap...because they didn't take into account for changes that were posted.
Realistcly a 28 point build without being a pure Elf rogue fully maxed, probly not gonna find it. So if you are a 28 point build I can feel your pain, you might not find it until you hit lvl 16.
But any 32 or drow/elf pure build should be able to hit the DC of ths search without any problems.
And for the last thing nice job devs making it so if you unlock the chest it does a crazy elemental blast that wiped the whole party that was staning in front of the chest where the secret door is, it was great the cleric said oh just unlock the chest you don't have to disarm the trap. I said ok cool (as I had not been in there in a while), and BOOM all members but me as I made all but 1 of my saves (luckily having my acid resist cloak on) died on the spot. And the best part is, the "safe spot" someone eluded to earlier is no longer there. So I say congrats on a job well done with fixing this exploit and trying to make the rogue a useless class in most quests...
Now just make more quests where you need a rogue and you will be on the right track.

Happy Hunting!

Talcyndl
06-20-2007, 09:11 AM
Peavy:

Not sure if you're talking about the Cabal trap. But if so, the Search DC on elite is 61 not 54.

And even 32 point Elves or 28 point Drow can't "hit the DC of ths search without any problems." It takes any extreme level of investment for a level 14 to hit 61 search.

And even a elven rogue (or a dwarf with the dragonmarks) who made that investment would be gimped in other (more useful) things - like fighting.

Oh and if you think the Cabal trap makes more parties think they should bring a rogue, you have it exactly backward. Two design decisions mean no reasonable group would think they "need" a rogue.

1. The path which would highlight trap skills (ie, tell whatshisname to screw off at the beginning) costs you a box at the end. So NO group ever takes that path. They might as well have saved the time spent building all those traps, because they are always disarmed for you.

2. The DC on the one remaining trap is so high and the trap so deadly virtually no group even considers trying for it. Certainly, no group is going to wait around for the small handful of rogues that can actually hit 61 Search.

So what COULD have been a great dungeon to highlight rogues turns out to be the exact opposite. :(

DKerrigan
06-20-2007, 10:40 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=1205291&postcount=49

That's my solution...

Runyant
06-20-2007, 02:36 PM
RIght, the DC on Cabal trap is 61. My rogue can get to a DC of 53 easily, and can find/disarm the trap on normal. Its elite that is the problem.

She is a drow elf build--but I maxed out Dexterity (I know...I know...but I wanted a FUN rogue to play--not just an INT-Bot). Her Dex is now on its way to hitting 36 (go Inana!!) but the elite box in Cabal is problematic.

There are nice advantages to having super high Dex. She has pretty good AC, her tumble is insane, and her hide/sneak skills are good--too bad the game makes these skills sort of useless, HEehhhehehehehe. With her high BaB from weapon finesse, she pretty much can hit anything in the game. The nice thing about an insane tumble is that I can fall from huge heights and take almost no damage. For example, in Trial by fire (that's the spider cave, right), Inana can fall all the way down the pit from the very top, down to the lava center and take almost no damage. I'll have to try it with action boost to see if I can get the damage to zero.

After talking this over with guildies though, there are some other ways I can eak out a few search points, including find trap scrolls, and prayer clickies, as well as the gianthold collectibles. (INT Pots). I still need to locate a +6 INT item and +13 Search goggles--these are difficult items to get!!! Its going to be an absolute pain to get her to 61.

And yes, I REALIZE this is a level 16, elite quest. But, this is a "rogue's" quest, right? And if my pure rogue is having problems, well then I think there might be an issue to address. The trap is what a rogue is measured against--and i can't defeat it yet. Its absolute--either I have a 61, or I don't. No luck comes into it at all--and I think that's a problem. Barbarians can continue to swing, and magic-users can continue to spam MM. Rogues don't get a second try....

I'm going to try and get to 61...... But I'm fearful of other level-cap increases, and increasingly higher DC's. It level 16--and to me that means its an earmark I have to start working on now--and must meet now if I'm to be successful in future updates. I hope the developers keep that in mind and can assist us pure rogues.

Happy Questing

draculan13
07-16-2007, 06:15 AM
The trap is fun for me because of its difficulty. I feel that it adds an element of luck to the game, in which i would otherwise be unchallenged. Sometimes I would go into a dragon raid with only masterwork thieves tools for fun. I hate going up to traps and knowing that it will easily be broken. DDO like many other mmo rpgs is built around character development, and for a rogue that is rather straight forward: build a character who can break traps. Other classes like fighters have more hps and are better in battle because thats what they do is fight. Thats their primary function. Rogues do have the element of being a conglomerate of classes so they are proficient in battle; yet that's not their sole function. Some people may disagree that this is not what a rogue should be, but how much fighting a character does is dependent on how a person plays his or her character. If your character is the type that fights a little bit more than other rogues, perhaps you should take a level in fighter. You'd be tougher and more able to hold your own in combat situations. I've also heard that paralyzing weapons are good for rogues; perhaps your equipment could use upgraded?

The way i look at the quest setup is that it makes sense, but is very misleading. The value of the quest itself is one chest. You fight one named in order for the quest to be completed. If you choose, you may fight an additional named for one additional chest. Hence a bigger battle is worth one chest. This would appeal to tanks and melee consious parties; and as a sweetener, the traps are disabled. Should a party have a potent rogue who can at least compete with the trap, they have the chance at getting one additonal chest. The value of this chest is equivalent to that which is at the end of the quest. If a party chooses to attempt the quest on elite, which is typically for favor or loot, then they could bring along a rogue who is capable of disabling this trap; allowing them 133% the loot that they could pull. If you cannot disable this trap, then don't freak out just yet. It's a difficult quest, perhaps you could equip your character better and in the future bust the thing. Its not like turbine in one day made all traps this difficult. Runyant has the right idea; work on your character until you can get it, or just wait until the next update for when you perhaps can. The key here is that its a higher benchmark; something to strive for. And for the record, those traps are a cakewalk compared to the big trap...

CAedes

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o238/Diggers_Union/ScreenShot00255.jpg

Talcyndl
07-16-2007, 10:13 AM
The trap is fun for me because of its difficulty. I feel that it adds an element of luck to the game, in which i would otherwise be unchallenged.

Given the search DC (which doesn't involve a roll), there is no "luck" involved unless you have an astronomically high 61+ search and get to try and roll for the disable.


The way i look at the quest setup is that it makes sense, but is very misleading.

You're confusing issues. This thread isn't about the secret door chest. It's about the fact that if someone chooses "Option 2" when they talk to the guy at the beginning, they have a much tougher quest (many hard and deadly traps). And in reward, they lose a chest.

Makes no sense. Which is why NO ONE EVER chooses Option 2.

Has anyone ever run it that way? I know I've never been in a group where it was even mentioned as a possibility. In other words, they might as well have not wasted the time designing all the extra traps.

Zorlinta
07-16-2007, 11:34 AM
Yeah i too believes that final adjustments on the cabal one was messed and somebody ("maybe some dumb manager") says ez way with disarmed traps must have an extra chest instead the way where all traps are set.

Im actually what this quest needs be is just swap the choices, talk to the hobo at begining and kill it to dont let him go and alert others to have inactive the traps :p (so no extra chest for kill him at begining), let him go and let alert the others to have all the traps active and extra chest :)

Talcyndl
07-16-2007, 12:52 PM
Im actually what this quest needs be is just swap the choices, talk to the hobo at begining and kill it to dont let him go and alert others to have inactive the traps :p (so no extra chest for kill him at begining), let him go and let alert the others to have all the traps active and extra chest :)

Nice idea.

Kaldaka
07-16-2007, 01:47 PM
This thread isn't about the secret door chest. It's about the fact that if someone chooses "Option 2" when they talk to the guy at the beginning, they have a much tougher quest (many hard and deadly traps). And in reward, they lose a chest.

Makes no sense. Which is why NO ONE EVER chooses Option 2.

Has anyone ever run it that way? I know I've never been in a group where it was even mentioned as a possibility. In other words, they might as well have not wasted the time designing all the extra traps.

I recently pugged with a group where the player who talked to him didn't know about the two paths and he chose the wrong one. We ended up with a lot of traps. I was the rogue in group as a Wizzy 13/Rogue 1. I can hit a search of 53 with all buffs/clickies/etc. on. This means I can find all the traps except for the single 61 search DC. However, his disable is also +53 with the clickies/etc. and I rolled a 3 on one of the other traps, and it was a critical failure. I even showed the group this (Ctrl V and Ctrl C) and they were absolutely amazed by the DC on the disable. Everyone in group (including me) said they would never do that option again.

Talcyndl
07-16-2007, 02:05 PM
Everyone in group (including me) said they would never do that option again.


And even if the traps weren't that hard, no group would do it anyway because of the loss of the chest. As I've said, it's a silly dungeon design.

BananaHat
07-16-2007, 04:57 PM
I didn't even know there was a choice in this quest. Of all the times I've run it, there were 2 bosses at the end.

I guess that tells you something about the exp vs. loot option. :p

BananaHat