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Thread: Archmage Pass

  1. #1
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Default Archmage Pass

    Archmages are supposed to be the mighty mages that specializes so much into a single school that they get a lot of extra tricks for them. Ideally, a specialist Archmage should be the king of DC casting in their chosen school. That was the case before the enhancement pass (Except for Necromancy, because we have a MORE specialized tree for that), but it is no longer true. My intention is to fix that.

    Basically, the changes is moving the SLA to a enhancement line in the left column, and create new cores and T5.

    As always, feedback is appreciated.

    Core Enhancements

    • (Level 1) Archmage Specialization: Select a spell school. Spells of this school cost 1 less SP to cast per core enhancement you take (Minimum 0). Passive: You get +1 Universal Spell Power per point spent on this tree.
    • (Level 3) Arcane Bolt: You gain Arcane Bolt as an Spell-Like Ability (Cost: 2 SP, Cooldown: 3 Seconds). It is considered a level 2 spell. It no longer has a save for half damage.
    • (Level 6) School Mastery: Spells from your chosen school get a +1 bonus to their DC, and:
      • Abjuration: You are permanently under the effects of Mage Armor.
      • Conjuration: 10% faster casting time for conjuration spells only.
      • Enchantment: +2 to Spell Penetration for enchantment spells only.
      • Evocation: +1 Caster Level and Maximum Caster Level for evocation spells only.
      • Illusion: You are permanently under the effects of Dusk (10% concealment miss chance)
      • Necromancy: You gain +10 HP.
      • Transmutation: You are permanently under the effects of Expeditious Retreat.
    • (Level 12) Arcane Blast: You gain Arcane Blast as an Spell-Like Ability (Cost: 6 SP, Cooldown: 5 seconds). It is considered a level 4 spell. Reflex for half damage (can be Heightened).
    • (Level 18) Spell Knowledge: You gain +100 Spell Points and +1 DC with all your spells.
    • (Level 20) Master of Magic: +2 Intelligence, +5 Spellcraft, and all metamagic feats cost 1 fewer spell point to use. (same as live)


    Tier 1

    • Archmage Studies: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 1)
    • Subtle Spellcasting: As live
    • Energy of the Scholar: As live
    • Spell Critical: As live
    • Wand and Scroll Mastery: As live


    Tier 2

    • Archmage Studies II: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 3). Requires Archmage Studies I.
    • Efficient Metamagic: As live, but only two enhancements in parallel.
    • Spell Critical: As live
    • Traditionalist Caster: As live, moved from Tier 1


    Tier 3

    • Archmage Studies III: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 6). Requires Archmage Studies II and Spell Focus on that School.
    • Efficient Metamagic: As live, the third one moved to Tier 3.
    • Spell Penetration: As live
    • Spell Critical: As live
    • Intelligence


    Tier 4

    • Archmage Studies IV: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 6). Requires Archmage Studies III and Greater Spell Focus on that school.
    • Efficient Heighten: As live
    • School Mastery: As live
    • Spell Critical: As live
    • Intelligence


    Tier 5

    • Archmage Studies V: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 6) and +1 DC on your chosen school. Requires Archmage Studies IV.
    • Archmage Dilettante Studies: (2 AP) Select an SLA not from your main school. Requires Spell Focus on that school. Passive: +1 DC on that school.
      • Abjuration: Resist Energy.
      • Conjuration: Web
      • Enchantment: Otto's Resistible Dancing
      • Evocation: Chain Missile
      • Illusion: Displacement
      • Necromancy: Halt Undead
      • Transmutation: Haste
    • Arcane Mastery: (2 AP) +1 DC to all spells. Requires School Mastery
    • Arcane Supremacy: As live
    • Permanency: (2 AP) You lose 100 Maximum Spell Points. Toggle: You are always under the effect of the following spell of your chosen school:
      • Abjuration: Freedom of Movement
      • Conjuration: Lesser Vigor
      • Enchantment: Greater Heroism
      • Evocation: Wind Wall (basically, Deflect Arrows feat)
      • Illusion: Lesser Displacement
      • Necromancy: Lesser Death Aura
      • Transmutation: Water Breathing


    Thanks for Requiro to suggest me to put +1 DC on the T5 SLAs.
    Last edited by nibel; 07-18-2015 at 12:08 PM.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Bolt/blast should be different depending on chosen school, I mean, still 1d6/level force damage, but its called Abjuring Blast or Necromantic Blast, etc. but is considered to be your chosen school, so it procs aprioprate debuffs, used its DC etc.
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    Default SLA line and Levels, Permanency Needs Work

    By moving the SLAs from the cores to the Tiers, you are giving people early access to spells. For example, the current Core 6 SLAs are level 3 spells, meaning you need Wiz 5 to take them. You have moved these to T3, meaning a level 3 wiz can get them. Splashing 3 Wiz for cheap haste or displacement SLAs before you can even cast the spell seems off. Some of the T4, which I think are the former core 12, SLAs are even more precarious. A 4 Wiz with phantasmal killer? Ouch.

    As to permanency, the chosen spells seem redundant or strange, aside from FoM. If I am an illusionist, for example, I likely have displacement as an SLA already, and it is dirt cheap (or free, if the Core 1 discount works on SLAs). Why would I care to have Lesser Displacement permanently? Similarly, you are concerned perma-haste is too powerful, but if I have gone Transmutation, I likely have it as a cheap SLA already. I suppose a multiclasser might like Thundering Armor, but my wizzies generally prefer to not be hit. Lesser Death Aura is more a Necromancer thing, and I am not going to lose T5 in that tree to get it here.

  4. #4
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellrad View Post
    Bolt/blast should be different depending on chosen school, I mean, still 1d6/level force damage, but its called Abjuring Blast or Necromantic Blast, etc. but is considered to be your chosen school, so it procs aprioprate debuffs, used its DC etc.
    Idea is interesting, but that would require the devs to create fourteen new "arcane bolt/blast" spells behind the scenes. I'm not sure if we can come with decent debuffs for each one. Unless you are talking like Magister/DI debuffs. In this case, current Arcane Bolt/Blast are considered Universal spells, like PnP Detect Magic.

    And since I removed the save from Arcane Bolt, the level limitation is mostly for "mantle of invulnerability"-like stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by TackW5 View Post
    By moving the SLAs from the cores to the Tiers, you are giving people early access to spells. For example, the current Core 6 SLAs are level 3 spells, meaning you need Wiz 5 to take them. You have moved these to T3, meaning a level 3 wiz can get them.
    Not by much. Getting a T2 spells requires at least 7 AP, which means you should basically be level 3 anyway. A T3 spell requires 12 AP, meaning access at almost level 4. A T4 requires 22 AP, which is level 6. All of those are one level below the requires Wiz level, which makes sense for a school specialist to acquire before a standard wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by TackW5 View Post
    Splashing 3 Wiz for cheap haste or displacement SLAs before you can even cast the spell seems off. Some of the T4, which I think are the former core 12, SLAs are even more precarious. A 4 Wiz with phantasmal killer? Ouch.
    T4 requires level 6 for the 22 AP requirement.

    For splashes, remember that you will cast with a lower caster level. This means shorter Hastes, fewer Chain Missiles, and capped effectiveness of Heighten and Spell Resistance checks. Also the (Greater) Spell Focus should limit splash acessibility as well, since the best SLAs are in schools with subpar benefits from those schools, like Transmutation.

    Quote Originally Posted by TackW5 View Post
    As to permanency, the chosen spells seem redundant or strange, aside from FoM.
    Mostly, I tried to balance those with school accessibility, Level 6 Core, and the SLAs you receive. For instance, Abjuration have the weakest effects in the SLA, and benefit the least from the school DC (only spell that benefits is Dismissal/Banishment, and those are limited). Thus, their Permanency effect is intended to be more powerful.

    Enchantment I thought about going with standard Heroism, then I remembered my experience running an enchantment specialist post-MotU: Basically, the only things I used from the tree was the cheap Hypno. Otto I had a no-resist version as a level 8 spell, that unless I was running something underlevel, was required for the no-fail aspect. Hold Person is redundant with Hold Monster, which you always prefer to cast Mass Hold Monster for efficiency. And don't let me start with how Epic Ward interact with Charm spells. So, basically it boils down to "weak SLA", which means a powerful Permanency effect. So, GH was set.

    Evocation I had basically two choices: Fire Shield or Thundering Armor. Since they get Fire Shield as an SLA, Thundering Armor it is. Sure, I could get Tenser as well, but that is already a toggle in the EK tree, and seems more focused on the gish template that EK enforces, instead of the specialist caster template on Archmage.

    Illusion is at an odd place because we only have seven Illusion spells in the whole game, so illusion effects are kinda limited. Permanent Displacement would make the SLA useless (since it is self-cast only), and permanent Invisibility is too powerful. I thought about permanent Shadow Walk, but most people I know don't like how the spell severely limits your sight range.

    Necromancy is a small effect, but it is constant damage for nearby enemies, which can proc spell stuff. If you have some undead form (from a small investment in PM), it is basically a permanent fast healing, like the Conjuration Permanency effect. Sure, Death Aura is stronger, But it is too strong to be on a permanent effect, and it would make the Conjuration/healing effect unbalanced in comparison.

    Transmutation, as you pointed out, have Haste and Knock, two very useful spells. Thus, they have a weaker Permanency effect.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    Evocation could actually go a different route. There's evoc spells in tabletop that blow away incoming projectiles from you. They aren't in DDO, but deflect arrows /is/. So, simply name it 'Wind Ward', and make it (due to being T5) the Vanguard/Tempest grade of Deflect Arrows. Hard to peg someone with an arrow when all the elements in their most forceful forms bend to their will.

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    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmalfeas View Post
    Evocation could actually go a different route. There's evoc spells in tabletop that blow away incoming projectiles from you. They aren't in DDO, but deflect arrows /is/. So, simply name it 'Wind Ward', and make it (due to being T5) the Vanguard/Tempest grade of Deflect Arrows. Hard to peg someone with an arrow when all the elements in their most forceful forms bend to their will.
    That is a good suggestion. I forgot about Wind Wall being an Evocation spell. Changing OP right now.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Abjurer Dilletante is ludicrously weak for a Tier 5!

    Abjurer Permanency is also not as strong as you make out as Perma FoM is available on multiple items and it's one spell that a Cleric/FvS/Bard/Ranger or Druid will usually be happy to cast on you if asked.


    How about for the Dilletante: Stoneskin

    And for the Permanency: Spell Resistance {Goes higher than items}

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    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    this doesnt seem like it would make flaeshies less comprehensively sucky compared to undead.

    it does seem like a request for permabuffs, which honestly is pretty gimp considering you can get most/all of the good personal buffs you need in the game from items.

    not an appealing suggestion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_one_dwarfforged View Post
    this doesnt seem like it would make flaeshies less comprehensively sucky compared to undead.
    I tried to argue about how would be the best way to nerf Lich form. The replies were not amusing, so I'm trying the other way around.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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    Community Member the_one_dwarfforged's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I tried to argue about how would be the best way to nerf Lich form. The replies were not amusing, so I'm trying the other way around.
    the issue with lich form vs am is that it gives you all around better dcs. it does not need to be nerfed for two reasons. with the prerequisite effort dc casting on a wiz is, afaik, working well currently without being too strong. getting those dcs from lich form though, has a cost in the form of having to be an undead. imo that is a penalty because id rather heal via positive energy, or at least be able to be healed by positive energy at a reduced rate.

    to make am more equal to undead, the dcs need to be competitive. no nerfing of undead or any of this other **** needed.
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    Class balance isn't a black-or-white...issue...

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_one_dwarfforged View Post
    to make am more equal to undead, the dcs need to be competitive. no nerfing of undead or any of this other **** needed.
    I did that. Current AM have +4 Int and +2 School DC (and +1 secondary school DC) versus PM +8 Int and +2 Necro

    My proposition changes AM to +4 Int, +2 Universal DC and +2 school DC. It have the same +DC potential as a Lich, with the extra +2 DC to any school instead of only necro.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Archmages are supposed to be the mighty mages that specializes so much into a single school that they get a lot of extra tricks for them.
    Nope. The Archmage should be based on, well, the archmage

    Specifically

    Spells per Day/Spells Known
    When a new archmage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if he had also gained a level in whatever arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he added the prestige class level. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class in which he could cast 7th-level spells before he became an archmage, he must decide to which class he adds each level of archmage for the purpose of determining spells per day.

    High Arcana
    An archmage gains the opportunity to select a special ability from among those described below by permanently eliminating one existing spell slot (she cannot eliminate a spell slot of higher level than the highest-level spell she can cast). Each special ability has a minimum required spell slot level, as specified in its description.

    An archmage may choose to eliminate a spell slot of a higher level than that required to gain a type of high arcana.

    Arcane Fire (Su)
    The archmage gains the ability to change arcane spell energy into arcane fire, manifesting it as a bolt of raw magical energy. The bolt is a ranged touch attack with long range (400 feet + 40 feet/level of archmage) that deals 1d6 points of damage per class level of the archmage plus 1d6 points of damage per level of the spell used to create the effect. This ability costs one 9th-level spell slot.

    Arcane Reach (Su)
    The archmage can use spells with a range of touch on a target up to 30 feet away. The archmage must make a ranged touch attack. Arcane reach can be selected a second time as a special ability, in which case the range increases to 60 feet. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.

    Mastery of Counterspelling
    When the archmage counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.

    Mastery of Elements
    The archmage can alter an arcane spell when cast so that it utilizes a different element from the one it normally uses. This ability can only alter a spell with the acid, cold, fire, electricity, or sonic descriptor. The spell’s casting time is unaffected. The caster decides whether to alter the spell’s energy type and chooses the new energy type when he begins casting. This ability costs one 8th-level spell slot.

    Mastery of Shaping
    The archmage can alter area and effect spells that use one of the following shapes: burst, cone, cylinder, emanation, or spread. The alteration consists of creating spaces within the spell’s area or effect that are not subject to the spell. The minimum dimension for these spaces is a 5-foot cube. Furthermore, any shapeable spells have a minimum dimension of 5 feet instead of 10 feet. This ability costs one 6th-level spell slot.

    Spell Power
    This ability increases the archmage’s effective caster level by +1 (for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only). This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

    Spell-Like Ability
    An archmage who selects this type of high arcana can use one of her arcane spell slots (other than a slot expended to learn this or any other type of high arcana) to permanently prepare one of her arcane spells as a spell-like ability that can be used twice per day. The archmage does not use any components when casting the spell, although a spell that costs XP to cast still does so and a spell with a costly material component instead costs her 10 times that amount in XP. This ability costs one 5th-level spell slot.

    The spell-like ability normally uses a spell slot of the spell’s level, although the archmage can choose to make a spell modified by a metamagic feat into a spell-like ability at the appropriate spell level.

    The archmage may use an available higher-level spell slot in order to use the spell-like ability more often. Using a slot three levels higher than the chosen spell allows her to use the spell-like ability four times per day, and a slot six levels higher lets her use it six times per day.

    If spell-like ability is selected more than one time as a high arcana choice, this ability can apply to the same spell chosen the first time (increasing the number of times per day it can be used) or to a different spell.
    Anything else is just perpetuating a mistake that should not have been made in the first place.

  13. #13
    Community Member Vellrad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by General_Gronker View Post
    Nope. The Archmage should be based on, well, the archmage

    Specifically



    Anything else is just perpetuating a mistake that should not have been made in the first place.
    To me, archmage in DDO looks like red wizard.
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    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    The main problem with your idea is that it still made better Lich Pale Master then AM. On PM tree you only need about 45 AP points. The rest you can put in AM. And then in Lich form, with AM Core 18, you get most DC that every other Wizard can get.

    Lich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Archlich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) + AM Core 18 (+1 DC) = +4 Universal DC
    AM Core 6 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) = +2 School DC

    Thus in ArchLich Form:
    Every school = +4 DC
    Necromancy = +6 DC
    School = +6 DC (or Necromancy +8 DC)

    vs

    Archmage: Arcane Mastery (+1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) + AM Core 18 (+1 DC) = +3 Universal DC
    AM Core 6 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) + = +2 School DC
    Thus without Lich:
    Every school = +3 DC
    School = +5 DC

    Conclusion: Archlich is still superior to Archmage. This is not a good improvment.

    Below are my comments and suggestion to your idea (in red):

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    (...)

    Core Enhancements

    • (Level 1) Archmage Specialization: Select a spell school. Spells of this school cost 1 less SP to cast per core enhancement you take
      (Minimum 0). Passive: You get +1 Universal Spell Power per point spent on this tree.

      This mean with Core 4 (Level 12) you have some 1st level spells for free. This is intentional? And with Capstone, some 2nd level spell 0 SP cost…
      Suggestion: 1 less SP per 2 core enhancement. Thus on Core 1,6,18 = -3 less SP.

    • (Level 3) Arcane Bolt: You gain Arcane Bolt as an Spell-Like Ability (Cost: 2 SP, Cooldown: 3 Seconds). It is considered a level 2 spell. It no longer has a save for half damage.
    • (Level 6) Archmage Knowledge: You gain 50 SP, +2 DC to save against spell from you chosen school, and you choice one of the benefit:
      • You are permanently under the effects of Mage Armor(+4 Armor AC, protection from MM).
      • You are permanently under the effects of Dusk (10% concealment miss chance).
      • You are permanently under the effects of Expeditious Retreat(+25% run speed).
      • 5% faster casting time
      • +2 to Spell Penetration / Every 10 Wizard levels
      • +1 Caster Level and Maximum Caster Level / every 10 Wizards levels
      • You gain +2 HP / level.
    • (Level 12) Arcane Blast: You gain Arcane Blast as an Spell-Like Ability (Cost: 6 SP, Cooldown: 5 seconds). It is considered a level 4 spell. No save
    • (Level 18) Archmage Knowlage: Spells from your chosen school get a +1 bonus to their DC, and you choice 2nd benefit not taken in Core 6
    • (Level 20) Master of Magic: +2 Intelligence, +5 Spellcraft, 50 SP and all metamagic feats cost 1 fewer spell point to use. Additional Base cost of School Spells are reduce by 2 SP


    Tier 1

    • Archmage Studies: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 1)
    • Subtle Spellcasting: As live
    • Energy of the Scholar: As live
    • Spell Critical: As live
    • Wand and Scroll Mastery: As live


    Tier 2

    • Archmage Studies II: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 3). Requires Archmage Studies I and Wizard level 2
    • Efficient Metamagic: As live, but only two enhancements in parallel.
    • Spell Critical: As live
    • Traditionalist Caster: As live, moved from Tier 1


    Tier 3

    • Archmage Studies III: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 6). Requires Archmage Studies II, Spell Focus on that School and Wizard level 4
    • Efficient Metamagic: As live, the third one moved to Tier 3.
    • Spell Penetration: As live
    • Spell Critical: As live
    • Intellicenge


    Tier 4

    • Archmage Studies IV: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 12). Requires Archmage Studies III, Greater Spell Focus on that school and Wizard level 6
    • Efficient Heighten: As live
    • School Mastery: As live
    • Spell Critical: As live
    • Intelligence


    Tier 5

    • Archmage Studies V: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 18) and Passive: +1 to your DC school. Requires Archmage Studies IV and Wizard level 8
    • Archmage Dilettante Studies: (2/2 AP): Requires Arcane Mastery
      • 1st rank: You gain +1 DC to other school. Require Spell Focus on that school
      • 2nd rank: You can choice any 1-3 level wizard spell that will work as SL-a, with 2x longer cooldown, and half SP cost. Metamagic for free.
    • Arcane Mastery: (2 AP) +1 DC to all spells. Requires School Mastery and Spell Focus other then main School
    • Arcane Supremacy: As live
    • Permanency: (2 AP) Toogle: 100 SP cost: You are under the effect of the following spell of your chosen school and gain +2 INT:
      • Abjuration: Freedom of Movement
      • Conjuration: Lesser Vigor
      • Enchantment: Greater Heroism
      • Evocation: Wind Wall (basically, Deflect Arrows feat)
      • Illusion: Lesser Displacement (25% chance to miss)
      • Necromancy: Lesser Death Aura
      • Transmutation: Jump, Tumble and Water Breathing
    This way you get:

    Lich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Archlich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) = +3 Universal DC
    AM Core 18 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) = +2 School DC

    Thus in ArchLich Form:
    Every school = +3 DC
    Necromancy = +5 DC
    School = +5 DC (or Necromancy +7 DC)

    vs

    Archmage: Arcane Mastery (+1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) + Permanency (2 INT = +1 DC) = +3 Universal DC
    AM Core 18 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) + Archmage Studies V (+1 School DC) = +3 School DC
    Archmage Dilettante Studies 1st rank (+1 other School DC) = +1 Other school DC

    Thus without ArchLich form:
    Every school = +3 DC
    School = +6 DC
    Other school = +4 DC

    There will be also new way that we can call: Archmage in Lich form:

    Lich (2 INT = +1 DC) + Arcane Mastery (+1 DC) + Capstone (2 INT = +1 DC) + Permanency (2 INT = +1 DC) = +4 Universal DC
    AM Core 18 (+1 School DC) + School Mastery (+1 School DC) + Archmage Studies V (+1 School DC) = +3 School DC
    Archmage Dilettante Studies 1st rank (+1 other School DC) = +1 Other school DC

    Thus with Lich form:
    Every school = +4 DC
    Necromancy = +5 DC (or +6 with Other School)
    School = +7 DC (or Necromancy +8 DC)
    Other school = +5 DC

    With additional heavy drawback, and AP wise investment

    In other word: Lots of choice, and nothing is superior to other.
    What do you think?
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  15. #15
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    The main problem with your idea is that it still made better Lich Pale Master then AM. On PM tree you only need about 45 AP points. The rest you can put in AM. And then in Lich form, with AM Core 18, you get most DC that every other Wizard can get.
    If you do the same math using the 31 AP that a PM is sinking into Archmage to an Archmage sinking 24 AP on Harper, you get the same +Int as sinking on PM, but without the drawback of being undead, and the DC remains the same (PM can reach higher Necro DC, but that is ok). And you get 7 extra AP to put somewhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    This mean with Core 4 (Level 12) you have some 1st level spells for free. This is intentional?
    Yes. It is a substitute to current +2 SP per AP on tree, with a flavor twist (You only get discounts on school-based spells). I assume that SLAs are exempt of this, since they already have reduced costs and free metas.

    When we have an arcane class that can cast eldritch blasts for free all day, a level 12 wizard casting unlimited unmetaed Magic Missiles is not even on par with that. Oh, yeah. That is only base cost. Metamagics can still raise the value over 0 SP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    Archmage Knowledge: You gain 50 SP, +2 DC to save against spell from you chosen school, and you choice one of the benefit
    +2 DC for a core 6? That is too good at a very low tier. Heroic casters do not need that buff (that's why I put the extra DCs at core 18 and T5), and it is low enough to be potentially problematic on some builds.

    I don't like your benefits being general options in a tree. I stand that this tree should cater to the school your wizard specializes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    Archmage Dilettante Studies: (2/2 AP): Requires Arcane Mastery
    1st rank: You gain +1 DC to other school. Require Spell Focus on that school
    2nd rank: You can choice any 1-3 level wizard spell that will work as SL-a, with 2x longer cooldown, and half SP cost. Metamagic for free.
    I'm almost sure that you can't make a 2-tiers enhancement have only a 1-tier enhancement as a pre-requisite without messing it out. In U19 beta, Tempest Dance of Death required the full Whirling Blades line, but you then could only buy one tier of it because the tier 2 would require the T4 to also have 2 ranks. On live they removed the requisite to allow DoD to stay as a 3-tier enhancement.

    Also, I'm not sure if it is possible to allow us to make a multiselector choice only at the second AP. The other way to do that would be making it two enhancements and link it with an arrow. But we are out of spaces on T5, unless I remove something else.

    While I like your idea of +1 DC and SLA in separate tiers, I believe they will never come for reasonable technical reasons. On the other hand, since we will be adding +1 DC on the T5 school SLA, I see no reason to not add +1 DC for the same cost in an off-school here as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    Archmage Studies V: (2 AP) School-based SLA (Current Core 18) and Passive: +1 to your DC school. Requires Archmage Studies IV and Wizard level 8
    Good call on the +1 School DC. That is a good cherry to be on top of this 10 AP line.

    I don't think we should requires Wizard level 8 for that SLA (or others). I explained the reasons why I don't mind giving access to those spells at lower levels a few posts above. But mostly, either a Wiz should specialize all their AP for that (which them makes them a true school specialist, and deserve a cookie), and splashes will hit a ceiling on spell DC and Spell Resistance check for half the T5 SLAs (Banishment, Hold Monster, Flesh to Stone)

    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    Permanency: (2 AP) Toogle: 100 SP cost: You are under the effect of the following spell of your chosen school and gain +2 INT
    I didn't put a SP cost on the Toggle on purpose, because like Undead forms, they are supposed to be on all the time anyway, and once you rest, the cost is irrelevant. I put them as a toggle instead of an always-on thing mostly because of the Feather Fall thing in Transmutation. Changing it to Water Breathing is interesting (might even be worth trading Jump to Merfolk's, since Transmutation Archmages will have Jump as an SLA anyway), and then I might just made the bonus permanent and removing the toggle at all.

    The +2 Int is overpowered. You usually spend 2 AP for +1 stat, not 2 AP for +2 stat and extra stuff. I know many people miss the +2 Int from Arcane Supremacy, but my intention on the balance is to make AM balanced with PM (Ie, a "PM only all AP sinked on it" and an "AM only, all AP sinked on it" to have the same DC on their main school and off-schools), making that extra Int unnecessary. Sure, a PM will probably get some extra stuff from the AM tree, just like the AM can dabble 11 AP for Vampire form and +1 Enchant DC.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  16. #16
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    (...) my intention on the balance is to make AM balanced with PM (Ie, a "PM only all AP sinked on it" and an "AM only, all AP sinked on it" to have the same DC on their main school and off-schools)(...)
    Well… You can say it, at the beginning… In current state of DDO, there is no “pure” Archmage or PaleMaster, so you made that suggestion not for reality.

    The unbalance is, that ArchLich do not take ANY drawback from Archmage tree, while Archmage, if what something from PaleMaster tree is force to take undead form for any real advantage. With your suggestion it’s going even deeper.

    If that was your intention, that all I can say is: Good work, but "NO" for implementation.
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  17. #17
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Requiro View Post
    The unbalance is, that ArchLich do not take ANY drawback from Archmage tree, while Archmage, if what something from PaleMaster tree is force to take undead form for any real advantage. With your suggestion it’s going even deeper.
    I disagree because the Harper tree exists, and the extra +2 Int there matches the basic Lich form, and is a lower hanging fruit (24 AP instead of 31). And unless you want to run as an undead all the time, there is very little in the PM tree that interests an Archmage. And if you do, it is better to just capstone the PM tree instead of the AM tree.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  18. #18
    Community Member Requiro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I disagree because the Harper tree exists, and the extra +2 Int there matches the basic Lich form, and is a lower hanging fruit (24 AP instead of 31). And unless you want to run as an undead all the time, there is very little in the PM tree that interests an Archmage. And if you do, it is better to just capstone the PM tree instead of the AM tree.
    My state is:

    - PaleMaster can take Archmage perks without drawback
    - Archmage can’t take PaleMaster perks without drawback
    - PaleMaster with Archmage perks is superior to Archmage with Harper Tree.
    - Thus every time PaleMaster win and this is unbalance.
    - Your ideas made situation even worse, because PM become even more superior.

    So I’m confused… With which one you disagree?
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  19. #19
    Community Member S3R3N1T7's Avatar
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    palmaster and caster is die with champion implementation

    now show the lfm and group and you will see wizard disepear it's reality change pass don't change the problem !!


    the champion kill caster / one shoot
    they resist spell / mana killer
    they have to many pv / mana killer
    they have immu death / mana killer


    people tr wizard and do other toon class or leave ddo or becaume casual player like me (because they hope a day they understand the error they do with this implementation and do something for correct this error )

  20. #20
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    Actually, my SP casters stayed out of Epic Elite (and in some cases, even heroic elite) even before champs most of the time. Why? Because if I nuked, the buckets of HP would drain my SP out unless I used 'round up and burst' tactics. If I Instakilled or CC'd, the huge DC requirements would require lots of PLs and excellent (if not perfect) DC gear. Little, if any, room for error /in gear and build/. And red names...ugh.

    So yeah, it's not champs that are the problem. They have the same saves as a normal mob. So if they aren't deathwarded, they can be instakilled. If they aren't FoM'd, they can be held. If both, they can still be hypno'd/stoned.

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