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  1. #1
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Default Monk Elemental Stances pass

    Currently, monks at level 1 get access to four elemental stances, each one focused in a class strength and a stat. Those stances can be improved at level 6, 12, and 18 (free for monks, via feats for splashes), giving increased benefits over their base stances.

    The main problem right now is that the four stances are not balanced over each other. Air and Earth are superior to the other two, except in very specific cases (like a wis-based caster in water stance). The purpose of this thread is to revamp those stances to make them more balanced.

    My suggestions are the following:

    Elemental Focus: What each stance do?

    Sun Stance have an offensive focus, based on increasing damage outpost per hit. Its focus is to hit as hard as possible. The drawback is that you become a Paper Tiger.

    • Basic Stance provides +2 to Strength, -2 to Constitution, +1 Ki per hit (melee and ranged), +1 Melee and Ranged Power.
    • Adept Stance provides +2 to Strength, -2 to Constitution, +1 Ki per hit (melee and ranged), +3 Ki per critical hit, +2 Melee and Ranged Power, and +0.5[W] damage with monk weapons.
    • Master Stance provides +4 to Strength, -2 to constitution, +1 Ki per hit (melee and ranged), +5 Ki per critical hit, +3 Melee and Ranged Power, +0.5[W] damage with monk weapons, and an extra +1 crit multiplier with monk weapons.
    • Grandmaster Stance provides +4 to Strength, +2 Ki per hit (melee and ranged), +5 Ki per critical hit, +5 Melee and Ranged Power, +1[W] damage with monk weapons, and an extra +2 crit multiplier with monk weapons.


    Wind Stance have an offensive focus, based on increasing hits per second. Its focus is to hit as fast as possible. The drawback is that you will have trouble hitting with your special monk attacks.

    • Basic Stance provides +2 to Dexterity, -2 to Wisdom, +2% alacrity (melee and ranged, stacks with Haste), +2.5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +1 dodge.
    • Adept Stance provides +2 to Dexterity, -2 to Wisdom, +4% alacrity (melee and ranged, stacks with Haste), +5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, and +2 dodge.
    • Master Stance provides +4 to Dexterity, -2 to Wisdom, +6% alacrity (melee and ranged, stacks with Haste), +7.5% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, +3 dodge, and +1 dodge cap.
    • Grandmaster Stance provides +4 to Dexterity, +10% alacrity (melee and ranged, stacks with Haste), +10% Doublestrike and Doubleshot, +5 dodge, and +3 dodge cap.


    Mountain Stance have a defensive focus, based on reducing damage as much as possible. It also double as a tanking stance. The drawback is that you will be more stiff and have limits on your dodge capability as if you are wearing armor.

    • Basic Stance provides +2 to Constitution, -5 to dodge cap , a 5% boost to AC, +1 to all saves, 3 PRR/MRR, and +50% threat from all sources (melee, ranged, spell).
    • Adept Stance provides +2 to Constitution, -5 to dodge cap, a 10% boost to AC, +5% boost to your hit points (do not stack with defender/sacred stance), +2 to all saves, 6 PRR/MRR, and +100% threat from all sources (melee, ranged, spell). You gain 1 Ki every time you are hit in combat.
    • Master Stance provides +4 to Constitution, -5 to dodge cap, a 15% boost to AC, +10% boost to your hitpoints (do not stack with defender/sacred stance), +3 to all saves, 9 PRR/MRR, and +150% threat from all sources (melee, ranged, spell). You gain 1 Ki every time you are hit in combat.
    • Grandmaster Stance provides +4 to Constitution, a 20% boost to AC, +15% boost to your hit points (do not stack with defender/sacred stance), +5 to all saves, 15 PRR/MRR, and +200% threat from all sources (melee, ranged, spell). You gain 1 Ki every time you are hit or missed in combat.


    Ocean Stance have a balanced focus, based on be adaptable as the water. You will have an easier time with tactical feats and special attacks. The drawback is that your physical attacks are not as hard.

    • Basic Stance provides +2 to Wisdom, -1 penalty to all Spell DC, -2 penalty to melee and ranged damage, and +2 bonus to the DC of all tactical maneuvers and Finishing Moves.
    • Adept Stance provides +2 to Wisdom, -1 penalty to all Spell DC, -2 penalty to melee and ranged damage, 5% Elemental Absorption, and +3 bonus to the DC of all tactical maneuvers and Finishing Moves.
    • Master Stance provides +4 to Wisdom, -1 penalty to all Spell DC, -2 penalty to melee and ranged damage, 5% Elemental Absorption, +4 bonus to the DC of all tactical maneuvers and Finishing Moves, and you gain +1 to passive ki regeneration.
    • Grandmaster Stance provides +4 to Wisdom, 10% Elemental Absorption, +6 bonus to the DC of all tactical maneuvers and Finishing Moves, and you gain +1 to passive ki regeneration. You also receive a +5 bonus to Spell Resistance.


    Adept, Master and Grandmaster of Forms feats: The elephant in the room.

    Monks will keep getting those feats for free at level 6, 12, and 18 regardless of pre-requisites. This will not change.

    Multiclassed characters will be able to get those as feats, if they meet the pre-requisites for each one:

    • Adept of Forms requires character level 9, at least 1 monk level, and a combination of Str, Dex, Con, and Wis 13.
    • Master of Forms requires character level 15, at least 3 monk levels, the Adept of Forms feat, and a combination of Str, Dex, Con, and Wis 15.
    • Grandmaster of Forms requires character level 20 (yes, it is an epic feat), at least 6 monk levels, the Master of Forms feat, and a combination of Str, Dex, Con, and Wis 17.


    This will give access of enhanced stances to monks first, while at the same time not cutting access to others that already use the feats for those. Just making them late bloomers.

    Grandmaster of Flowers: A minor change

    There are four enhancements on this Epic Destiny that are linked to each elemental stance: Running with the Wind at tier 2, Walking with Waves at tier 3, Standing with Stone at tier 4, and Dancing with Flames at tier 5.

    I propose those 4 enhancements to be compacted into the "Improved Elemental Forms" line, with each square being a multiselector of any of those enhancements. Obviously, they would be rebalanced because any of those could be categorized as a "tier 2" enhancement.

    • Dancing with Flames provides 4/8/12 Fire Resistance. If you have Sun Stance active, you gain +0.25/0.5/0.75 [W] damage and +2/4/6 Melee and Ranged power.
    • Running with the Wind provides 4/8/12 Electric and Sonic Resistance. If you have Wind Stance active, you also gain +10/20/30% enhancement bonus to movement speed, and 1/2/3 doublestrike and doubleshot.
    • Standing with Stone provides 4/8/12 Acid Resistance. If you have Mountain Stance active, you also gain 10/20/30 max HP and 5/10/15 PRR/MRR.
    • Walking with Waves provides 4/8/12 Cold Resistance. If you have Ocean Stance active, you also gain 3/6/9 AC and 1/2/3 dodge.


    Shintao Monk enhancements

    Shintao have three enhancements that are worth changing while we are remodeling the elemental stances. Check the wiki for the current versions of those. Below are the proposed changes:

    • Iron Skin will become an enhancement named "Elemental Path", and is no longer linked to Instinctive Defense. Devs can decide if it is either 1 AP per rank on a multiselector, or 2 AP per rank for all benefits at once (based on stance change). Or both (5 options on a multiselector).
      • Flame Wrath: While Sun Stance is active, you gain +1/2/3 damage.
      • Lightning Speed: While Wind Stance is active, you gain +1/2/3% doublestrike and doubleshot.
      • Iron Skin: While Mountain Stance is active, you gain +2/4/6 PRR and MRR.
      • Water Flow: While Ocean Stance is active, you gain 1/2/3 dodge.
    • Violence Begets Violence no longer requires you to be on Earth stance.
    • Meditation of War will be changed and no longer have any extra drawbacks:
      • Sun Stance: +2 Insight bonus to hit, +5 insight bonus to melee and ranged damage.
      • Wind Stance: +5 Insight bonus to Maximum Dodge Bonus. +10% bonus to off-hand attack chance.
      • Mountain Stance: +5 Insight bonus to PRR/MRR and +5% Insight bonus to Maximum Hit Points.
      • Ocean Stance: +2 Insight bonus to the DC's of your tactical feats and Finishing Moves and +3 Insight bonus to Spell Resistance.


    Elemental Stances items

    Jidz-Tet'ka is a special item that gives you extra bonus if you are in specific monk stances. because this proposition also changes (slightly) the way the elemental staces are envisioned, and since this item is wildly popular, I think they deserve special mention and changes. Part of those changes is making the heroic and epic versions of the bracers to give out different effects.

    • Sun Stance will give the wearer +10% Fortification bypass. EPIC: 20% fortification bypass.
    • Wind Stance will give +15% enhancement bonus to movement speed and +10 competence bonus to Tumble and Jump. EPIC: +30% speed and +30 skill.
    • Mountain Stance +10 exceptional bonus to healing amplification, and will give a small chance to proc Stoneskin when the character is hit. EPIC: +20 healing amplification bonus, and it procs Radiant Forcefield instead of stoneskin.
    • Ocean Stance will add Paralyzing (DC 15) to all attacks made by the wearer. EPIC: Paralyzing DC raises to 27.


    Way of the Sun Soul (AKA: Eveningstar Villager set) will give out different properties as well. They all share the following restrictions: They proc on a vorpal strike (natural 20), and have an internal cooldown of 20 seconds.

    • Sun Stance will give the wearer +10 Melee and Ranged Power for the next 12 seconds. It will also benefit from the effects of Haste for 12 seconds.
    • Wind Stance will give the wearer +6% Doublestrike and Doubleshot for the next 12 seconds. It will also benefit from the effects of Displacement for 12 seconds.
    • Mountain Stance will hit the wearer with a Greater Restoration and a Heal. It will also benefit from the effects of a Radiant Forcefield for 12 seconds.
    • Ocean Stance will give the wearer +15 Insight bonus to all elemental resistances for 12 seconds. It will also benefit from the effects of Freedom of Movement for 12 seconds.
    Last edited by nibel; 04-20-2015 at 09:34 PM. Reason: Fixing tags, toning down DS on Lightning Speed
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  2. #2
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Default Well done!

    WOW! I must say I am REALLY impressed with what you did here, everything looks balanced and nothing is over the top or too buffed. I like these suggestions more then my own, and hats off to you this is a great job!


    Can I just add something though to GMoF=
    1. Make petal strikes instant (like monk strikes so they dont interrupt attacks), and scale with melee power (they allready should, this is an oversight)
    2. Make drifting lotus, orchid blossom, and EiN saves= +Wisdom mod instead of +1/2 Wisdom mod to make the DC's more competitive with other classes. (they are too low for EE atm)


    Dang you seriously did a freaking good job here! =)
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  3. #3
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Reading through them again I cant decide which stance I would want to be in! Now THATS how it should be!
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    Interesting so far but it looks like air and fire are the only good ones if these changes would go through. There aren't enough useful wisdom strikes to make the bonuses from water stance worth it. Earth would only be good for prr and hp and offers no real dps. I think it could use some tweaking but I am intrigued so far.

  5. #5
    Community Member FranOhmsford's Avatar
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    Your Air and Fire stance users won't be able to Adept of Forms feats at all!

    -6 to Con and -6 to Wisdom make that impossible as feats only count base scores!

    Your Water stance is also clearly superior to the other three {penalties to spell DCs? Really?}.

    Frankly the penalties you've placed on the other 3 are so insane that they become simply unusable!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Your Air and Fire stance users won't be able to Adept of Forms feats at all!

    -6 to Con and -6 to Wisdom make that impossible as feats only count base scores!

    Your Water stance is also clearly superior to the other three {penalties to spell DCs? Really?}.

    Frankly the penalties you've placed on the other 3 are so insane that they become simply unusable!
    You misunderstand I think. Those penalties are a one time deal, not stackable.

    Water stance is not even close to being superior. Fire and air are clearly still the best unless dps isn't a thing to be worried about anymore.

    The penalties listed under meditation are negated by the capstone.

  7. #7
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Your Air and Fire stance users won't be able to Adept of Forms feats at all!

    -6 to Con and -6 to Wisdom make that impossible as feats only count base scores!
    They do not stack, and are not permanent, but a "stance drawback". Just like current elemental stances.

    So, a Master Wind Stance do not have -6 Str, but -2. And once you are a grandmaster, this penalty is removed.

    Quote Originally Posted by FranOhmsford View Post
    Your Water stance is also clearly superior to the other three {penalties to spell DCs? Really?}.
    The real penalty in water stance is the -2 damage per hit. The penalty to spell DC is to prevent easy monk dip to get +wisdom on wis-based casters.
    Last edited by nibel; 04-11-2015 at 04:04 PM.
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    Interesting so far but it looks like air and fire are the only good ones if these changes would go through. There aren't enough useful wisdom strikes to make the bonuses from water stance worth it. Earth would only be good for prr and hp and offers no real dps. I think it could use some tweaking but I am intrigued so far.
    Earth stance is very solid for what it is: a tanking stance.


    But yes after looking at water stance again I think it needs a little something more then just to DCs, drawing a blank as to what though.
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    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    How about:

    Add to grandmaster water stance: Melee and ranged attacks apply 1 stack of rusted defenses giving -1 to all saves and -5% fort, stacks 5 times.


    That will bump DCs for the entire party and increase party dps, making the stance the "party utility" stance/crowd control stance (through higher stunning fist DCs, etc).
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    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Delacroix21 View Post
    How about:

    Add to grandmaster water stance: Melee and ranged attacks apply 1 stack of rusted defenses giving -1 to all saves and -5% fort, stacks 5 times.

    That will bump DCs for the entire party and increase party dps, making the stance the "party utility" stance/crowd control stance (through higher stunning fist DCs, etc).
    I was drawing a blank to water grandmaster as well, but thought the passive ki regen and the huge tactics bonus (+8 if using a wis-based save) would be good enough to warrant it uses in strategic moments. Basically, water was designed to be the "meh" stance. It is not bad or good. It is just more "monkness" on your monk.

    I remember the devs saying that stff that reduces saves are not that common because save is one of the few mechanics that still "exists" within the d20 range. And even without air extra speed, monks still hit faster than any other fighting style (not sure if faster than SWF, my data is old) that this buff would stack up very quickly.

    I still think Grandmaster tier should have something, but -saves and -fortification is not it.
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  11. #11
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post

    I still think Grandmaster tier should have something, but -saves and -fortification is not it.
    Ok, well let's try to think of something along the lines of party utility stance. Fire and air are each a unique take on dps, earth is an obvious tanking stance, water (at least the DC focus) seems to be a utility stance.


    What about a PRR/MRR debuff on hit? Didn't the rogue pass add something like that?
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    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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      • Flame Wrath: While Sun Stance is active, you gain +1/2/3 damage.
      • Lightning Speed: While Wind Stance is active, you gain +2/4/6% doublestrike and doubleshot.
      • Iron Skin: While Mountain Stance is active, you gain +2/4/6 PRR and MRR.
      • Water Flow: While Ocean Stance is active, you gain 1/2/3 dodge.
    First I really like where you're going with this, but these aren't quite balanced, +1/2/3 damage is no where near on par with +2/4/6% doublestrike. Swap the damage to melee power, reduce the double strike to 1/2/3



    • Violence Begets Violence no longer requires you to be on Earth stance.
    Totally agree with this, I'd also change it to be, for every successful hit that is not a critical, you gain +1 crit threat.



    • Meditation of War will be rearranged, with minor changes:
      • Sun Stance: +2 Insight bonus to hit, +5 insight bonus to melee and ranged damage. You take 10% more physical and elemental damage.
      • Wind Stance: +5 Insight bonus to Maximum Dodge Bonus. +10% bonus to off-hand attack chance. Double cooldown on activated attacks.
      • Mountain Stance: +5 Insight bonus to PRR/MRR and +5% bonus to Maximum Hit Points. -5% Attack Speed.
      • Ocean Stance: +2 Insight bonus to the DC's of your tactical feats and Finishing Moves. You deal 10% less damage with attacks.
    Wind Stances is so much less disadvantaged than the other trees in this proposal. Along with the big advantage earlier on it's fairly obvious that windstance will be a better dps stance than fire.

    The current situation where the capstone removes penalties is total BS. A tier 5 ability shouldn't have penalties, none of the other ones do. The capstone needs an overhaul, if you ignore the portion of the capstone that removes Meditations Penalties, look at how terrible the capstone is compared to the other trees.

    Overall this is a very good start to overhauling monks and I like what you've suggested.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Munkenmo View Post
    Totally agree with this, I'd also change it to be, for every successful hit that is not a critical, you gain +1 crit threat.

    Wind Stances is so much less disadvantaged than the other trees in this proposal. Along with the big advantage earlier on it's fairly obvious that windstance will be a better dps stance than fire.

    The current situation where the capstone removes penalties is total BS. A tier 5 ability shouldn't have penalties, none of the other ones do. The capstone needs an overhaul, if you ignore the portion of the capstone that removes Meditations Penalties, look at how terrible the capstone is compared to the other trees.

    Overall this is a very good start to overhauling monks and I like what you've suggested.
    That would be a great change to violence begets violence.

    You are probably right about the meditation penalties. It shouldn't force you to take a capstone for it to be useful.

    As for the capstone I would love to see +2 wisdom, +1 ki regen, and being able to be in two elemental stances at once.

  14. #14
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    I am all for violence begets violence mimicing the swash ability to +1 crit on hit.


    Monks unarmed has the double worst crit range and multiplier in ddo, this would go a long way to increase monk dps.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munkenmo View Post
    First I really like where you're going with this, but these aren't quite balanced, +1/2/3 damage is no where near on par with +2/4/6% doublestrike. Swap the damage to melee power, reduce the double strike to 1/2/3
    You are right about the doublestrike values. I will tone them down to 1/2/3 on the OP.

    I'm not so sure about the melee power. The fire stance will provide MP, and this specific enhancement is a very low tier (T2), and at low-mid heroics a bonus to damage is better than MP that will not even add up to +1 damage. At this tier, I think straight damage bonus is better than melee power.

    Quote Originally Posted by Munkenmo View Post
    Totally agree with this, I'd also change it to be, for every successful hit that is not a critical, you gain +1 crit threat.
    Quote Originally Posted by moo_cow View Post
    That would be a great change to violence begets violence.
    (...)
    As for the capstone I would love to see +2 wisdom, +1 ki regen, and being able to be in two elemental stances at once.
    Just to be clear, the focus on this suggestion is not a full monk overhaul. Just the elemental stances. That's why I didn't focused on the rest of GMoF or capstones.

    I also agree that Meditation of War having extra penalties is a major letdown when you pick it at level 12, but I kept the penalties because of the capstone (that I would not propose changes).
    Last edited by nibel; 04-11-2015 at 11:16 PM.
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    You are right about the doublestrike values. I will tone them down to 1/2/3 on the OP.

    I'm not so sure about the melee power. The fire stance will provide MP, and this specific enhancement is a very low tier (T2), and at low-mid heroics a bonus to damage is better than MP that will not even add up to +1 damage. At this tier, I think straight damage bonus is better than melee power.
    There's already a precedent for +1/2/3 melee power at tier 2 in the harper tree.

    I agree that at level two +3 damage is the more powerful enhancement, but it doesn't scale at all like +1/2/3% double strike does. I'd rather take the small hit in the short term in order to have more damage long term.

    Perhaps the enhancement should be:
    +1 damage/+2 damage/ +2 damage & +3 melee power.


    I get that you don't want to address the shintao capstone. In that case don't. I'd still advise removing the Penalties from Meditation of War and leave the capstone to the devs. I feel that it's best to send a clear message that we don't like having penalties attached to "enhancements".

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    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Munkenmo View Post
    There's already a precedent for +1/2/3 melee power at tier 2 in the harper tree.

    I agree that at level two +3 damage is the more powerful enhancement, but it doesn't scale at all like +1/2/3% double strike does. I'd rather take the small hit in the short term in order to have more damage long term.

    Perhaps the enhancement should be:
    +1 damage/+2 damage/ +2 damage & +3 melee power.


    I get that you don't want to address the shintao capstone. In that case don't. I'd still advise removing the Penalties from Meditation of War and leave the capstone to the devs. I feel that it's best to send a clear message that we don't like having penalties attached to "enhancements".
    I agree completely. The current tier 5 in shintao actually harms your character, and is only very mildy beneficial if you are pure.
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    I love this idea! It's very well thought out and seems balanced.

    Water Stance does still seem a bit "meh", though. I'm not sure what change, but maybe have it be like a DPS/Tank hybrid? The added tactical DC will add the DPS through helpless, so maybe add in resists or fortification as the tank portion?
    The current Water Stance has resists, so I don't see why that wouldn't fit. The fortification could be explained by it being harder to critical/sneak attack you when you're moving fluidly like water.

    I know it's semi off-topic but I'd also love to see changes to the epic Jidz-tet'ka. It seems kind of odd that the epic version of Tet-zik provies the same buffs as the heroic version.
    The Earth Stance portion could probably be increased and the Water Stance could use a higher DC. It most likely wouldn't be wise to increase the Healing Amp of the fire stance buff, so it might need something different added.
    The +10 jump from Air Stance is mostly useless. It's so easy to reach the 40 cap, so I'd suggest it be changed to something different for both the heroic and epic version.

    The last thing I'd change is to have the feats count as Martial Arts Feats. I know this only really adds to multi-classing, but it doesn't make much sense that these essential monk feats aren't part of their class feats.

  19. #19
    Founder Delacroix21's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Madja View Post
    I love this idea! It's very well thought out and seems balanced.

    Water Stance does still seem a bit "meh", though. I'm not sure what change, but maybe have it be like a DPS/Tank hybrid? The added tactical DC will add the DPS through helpless, .
    I think you have something there. How about: +5/10/15/20% damage to helpless enemies and 5/10/15/20 fort bypass (to give the stance some utility vs red names as the DCs and bonus helpless damage go out the window).


    Now the stance is the straight up utility stance, and is on par with the others.
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  20. #20
    The Mad Multiclasser Failedlegend's Avatar
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    I'll respond to this in detail later (on my cell) but why did you add a DC penalty to the Water stance?

    Also requiring 6 Monk for GM of Forms is a little much I'd say making it an Epic feat is more than enough to make it a hard decision.

    Lastly the Stat requirements are ridiculous, this is how it used to be and it was removed for a reason
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