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Thread: Summon Pass

  1. #1
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Default Summon Pass

    In fantasy games in general, there is always a class that is based in summons, pets, and other underlings that you can control direct or indirectly. Final Fantasy Tamers and Summoners, Diablo 2 Necromancers, World of Warcraft warlocks and rangers, Pokemons, etc. The list is vast and you probably know a ton of examples.

    In DDO, however, Summon Monster was always a subpar spell because of a series of factors: The summoned monster can't be controlled in any way, you can't summon more than one, and since the release of epics, they just die too quickly in the high level quests to be worth the SP spent casting them.

    Controlable "pets", like the artificer's iron defender and hirelings, are a step above summons because they can be controlled, but still suffer many of the problems that plague summons, like a lack of resilience and pitiable DPS. Some of those suggestions will affect pets and hirelings as well, but their improving will be subject to other threads.

    I have no idea how hard it would be to code all this stuff, and I will try my best to find workaround using systems that already exists in game.

    My proposal is the following:

    Summoned monsters will have a CR equal to the caster level of the summoner

    That one is pretty much self-explanatory. Determine what is the highest top caster level you can achieve on a summoner build, and make versions of every level for every summoned monster. Most of this work can be done with copy-paste and automatic adjustments based on monster's CR. The innate benefit is that you can increase a summoner effectiveness by just giving him a bonus on caster level while casting conjuration spells.

    This also have the side-benefit of making every Summon Monster spell useful, because while higher level summons are "better" monsters, sometimes you could really benefit from something of a lower level that have a specific characteristic that you need, like a Winter Wolf's immunity to cold. It also make ranger's summons be of a reasonable level instead of summoning CR 4 lions at level 14.

    Summon Monster Spells should have three options per spell: Defensive, Offensive, and Special

    This one is a bit more complex, but let's define each term.

    A Defensive Summon is something that prioritizes survivability. It will not contribute in any good way to the party offensive power, but it will survive anything that you can throw at it. Those "tough" monsters will attack slowly, have almost no special characteristics, but will be a bloatbag of HP, and/or have a ton of immunities/resistances. You can use it as a shield against ranged attacks, or give it a huge threat bonus (like, +10,000%) so it will lure any monster it hits, working as the party's tank. One example of current "tanky" summon would be an orthon at level.

    An Offensive Summon is something that actually deal a ton of damage. It is summoned, and hits pretty hard, or give a ton of debuffs on hit. The main reason why you would summon this monster is to bring attack capabilities to the party. This means this monster should have half or less HP than a defensive monster, and much lower defenses. You may have to heal or buff it to keep it alive in heated situations. One example of current "striker" summon would be a bearded devil at level.

    A Special Summon is something that you don't call for offense or defense, but because the monster have a special characteristic that is amazing and you love it. This fits anything that don't fit easily in the other two slots. Current examples are the mummy lord and the elder dryad. The mummy have a paralyzing aura that hits reliably at level, and the dryad can cast some buffs and heal the party.

    This part will be very laborious to make, but I think it is worth the effort.

    Allow some minor control over your summons

    Every level 1 character will get a new feat, called "summon control" that will have three commands that can be dragged to a hotbar:

    Advance Ahead will make the summon try their best to be ahead of your own steps. It will position themselves to the front of your character, and will attack any enemy in sight. It will get a +200% bonus to movement speed.

    Join My Side will make the summon stand behind you, and never attacking any monster, unless you attack them first. They will not react if attacked, and you should always initiate the attack. The monster gets Fast Healing while on this mode (monsters that already regenerate, like the troll, will get MORE regeneration on top of that).

    Go Away will dismiss the summon. Activating this command will give the summoner a bit of temporary spell points back (half what they used to summon?)

    The reason why this is provided to every character instead of only characters that can innately summon (wiz, sorc, druid, ranger) is because everyone can use UMD to scroll a summon, and there are many ways to summon mobs via clickies and epic destinies. On the other hand, only giving "fine control" to classes that can summon might make them unique options.

    Feats and Enhancements

    This is under the same section so that I can gather them all at once.

    Spell Focus: Conjuration will also provide a +2 Caster Level to all conjuration spells of the Summoning subschool (so it doesn't boost things like Acid Blast). The same applies to Greater and Epic SF.

    Augment Summoning will give +4 to all ability scores to all summons, pets, hirelings, and charmed monsters. In addition, summoned mobs will gain +50 PRR/MRR, +50% fortification, +100 healing/repair/negative amplification, +100 spellpower and +10% doublestrike/doubleshot. This feat now requires Spell Focus: Conjuration as a pre-requisite.

    Druid Past Life will give +2 to all ability scores to all summons, pets, hirelings, and charmed mobs. In addition, summoned mobs and pets gain +10 PRR/MRR, +10% fortification, +20 healing/repair/negative amplification, +20 spellpower and +2% doublestrike/doubleshot.

    Harbinger of Nature's Wrath (Active druid PL) will give in addition to its current effects: All summons, pets and hirelings Resist 10 to all elemental damage (raises to 20 at level 12, 30 at level 18, 40 at level 24, and 50 at level 30) and will get +100 Melee and Ranged Power, and +300 Spell Power.

    Seasoned (Season's Herald core 1) will give in addition to its current effects: You get a +1 caster level to all conjuration spells of the summoning sub-school for each Core enhancement on this tree. (This is only because this is the caster tree to druids. If they get a third tree summon-based, the bonus shifts to that tree)

    Archmage Specialization: Conjuration will give in addition to its current effects: You get a +1 caster level to all conjuration spells of the summoning sub-school for each Core enhancement on this tree.

    Grand Summoner (T5 Magister) Summons and pets gain +4 to all ability scores, +50% health, increased fort and AC (50%), +4 to all saves, and a 40% increase to movement speed.

    Natural Shielding (T2 Primal Avatar) gives +MRR in addition to PRR, but otherwise, stay unchanged.

    The Oncoming Storm (T3 Primal Avatar) will raise the proc chance to 5%. Otherwise, stay unchanged.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  2. #2
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    A whole enhancement tree like Harper Agent needs be created in my opinion. If you want a pet with a CR rating equal to your level you should be required to spend a lot of AP based off the Augment summoning feat as a pre-requisite. If not you would have over powered multi-classes. This tree should stack with those enhancements already in existence but focused only on your companion.

    Maybe even sacrifice HP, in a bloodletting sacrifice to conjure up a more powerful version of summons as well in an active toggle.

    The stretch to level 30 is something to consider implementing picking up the usefulness of pets, summons, and hirelings...like an intervention of a divine/profane companion. In that case a feat that would bring even Multi-classed characters their pets, companions, summons to a CR rating equal to yours would be feasible...like re-acquaintance.

    Another option is to create more items for your pets...like a Symbiotic collar that would raise its CR to yours, or Neckbrace of the Admantine Golem which provides a permanent Lesser Stoneskin effect on a creature for purposes of DR. Lots of things that could be done to increase the usefulness of summoned pets so that they may continue with you into Epic levels...and beyond if that is what the Devs are considering. Some of which could be utilized only in crafting to make it feasible you are taking an active role in their creation/upbringing.

    There should also be summons that are beneficial that buffs heals/arcane casters...IMO. Like Fey creatures or something of like manner.

    Maybe a deeper look into Epic Destinies and their trees should be considered in the fruits that would further into Legendary and eventually Mythic levels?

    Even though we should keep TRs to the range of 20-28, a finished character should reach level 35 in my opinion. We can for ourselves say the 20-28 level stretch was a time the summoner was on a sole journey to find himself...to make up for the roadbump.

    Also, if we are going to go beyond 28th level, we should have a 4th rank of reincarnation in which to allot stats to 38 or even 40 point builds. In which your primary stat should determine some of the strengths of your pets and summons...not to mention the DC of the saves you will be facing. Plus one or two is not much if you think about it.

    I was also thinking that summon monster should be randomized with more powerful creatures able to be summoned in which case there is a Diplomacy or Intimidate check whichever is highest to see if they are able to be controlled. Again to avoid redesigning everything this should be something that can be implemented in higher level content. Any level summon monster spell will increase the chance of summoning these planar creatures and the chances increase by level of the summon again with enhancements to heighten these chances.
    Last edited by Enderoc; 04-05-2015 at 09:25 AM.
    Main Characters: Korkoch the Cruel, Sylhuetta Sidhe...Thelanis

  3. #3
    Community Member LuKaSu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    In fantasy games in general, there is always a class that is based in summons, pets, and other underlings that you can control direct or indirectly. Final Fantasy Tamers and Summoners, Diablo 2 Necromancers, World of Warcraft warlocks and rangers, Pokemons, etc. The list is vast and you probably know a ton of examples.

    In DDO, however, Summon Monster was always a subpar spell because of a series of factors: The summoned monster can't be controlled in any way, you can't summon more than one, and since the release of epics, they just die too quickly in the high level quests to be worth the SP spent casting them.

    Controlable "pets", like the artificer's iron defender and hirelings, are a step above summons because they can be controlled, but still suffer many of the problems that plague summons, like a lack of resilience and pitiable DPS. Some of those suggestions will affect pets and hirelings as well, but their improving will be subject to other threads.

    I have no idea how hard it would be to code all this stuff, and I will try my best to find workaround using systems that already exists in game.

    My proposal is the following:

    Summoned monsters will have a CR equal to the caster level of the summoner

    That one is pretty much self-explanatory. Determine what is the highest top caster level you can achieve on a summoner build, and make versions of every level for every summoned monster. Most of this work can be done with copy-paste and automatic adjustments based on monster's CR. The innate benefit is that you can increase a summoner effectiveness by just giving him a bonus on caster level while casting conjuration spells.

    This also have the side-benefit of making every Summon Monster spell useful, because while higher level summons are "better" monsters, sometimes you could really benefit from something of a lower level that have a specific characteristic that you need, like a Winter Wolf's immunity to cold. It also make ranger's summons be of a reasonable level instead of summoning CR 4 lions at level 14.

    Summon Monster Spells should have three options per spell: Defensive, Offensive, and Special

    This one is a bit more complex, but let's define each term.

    A Defensive Summon is something that prioritizes survivability. It will not contribute in any good way to the party offensive power, but it will survive anything that you can throw at it. Those "tough" monsters will attack slowly, have almost no special characteristics, but will be a bloatbag of HP, and/or have a ton of immunities/resistances. You can use it as a shield against ranged attacks, or give it a huge threat bonus (like, +10,000%) so it will lure any monster it hits, working as the party's tank. One example of current "tanky" summon would be an orthon at level.

    An Offensive Summon is something that actually deal a ton of damage. It is summoned, and hits pretty hard, or give a ton of debuffs on hit. The main reason why you would summon this monster is to bring attack capabilities to the party. This means this monster should have half or less HP than a defensive monster, and much lower defenses. You may have to heal or buff it to keep it alive in heated situations. One example of current "striker" summon would be a bearded devil at level.

    A Special Summon is something that you don't call for offense or defense, but because the monster have a special characteristic that is amazing and you love it. This fits anything that don't fit easily in the other two slots. Current examples are the mummy lord and the elder dryad. The mummy have a paralyzing aura that hits reliably at level, and the dryad can cast some buffs and heal the party.

    This part will be very laborious to make, but I think it is worth the effort.

    Allow some minor control over your summons

    Every level 1 character will get a new feat, called "summon control" that will have three commands that can be dragged to a hotbar:

    Advance Ahead will make the summon try their best to be ahead of your own steps. It will position themselves to the front of your character, and will attack any enemy in sight. It will get a +200% bonus to movement speed.

    Join My Side will make the summon stand behind you, and never attacking any monster, unless you attack them first. They will not react if attacked, and you should always initiate the attack. The monster gets Fast Healing while on this mode (monsters that already regenerate, like the troll, will get MORE regeneration on top of that).

    Go Away will dismiss the summon. Activating this command will give the summoner a bit of temporary spell points back (half what they used to summon?)

    The reason why this is provided to every character instead of only characters that can innately summon (wiz, sorc, druid, ranger) is because everyone can use UMD to scroll a summon, and there are many ways to summon mobs via clickies and epic destinies. On the other hand, only giving "fine control" to classes that can summon might make them unique options.

    Feats and Enhancements

    This is under the same section so that I can gather them all at once.

    Spell Focus: Conjuration will also provide a +2 Caster Level to all conjuration spells of the Summoning subschool (so it doesn't boost things like Acid Blast). The same applies to Greater and Epic SF.

    Augment Summoning will give +4 to all ability scores to all summons, pets, hirelings, and charmed monsters. In addition, summoned mobs will gain +50 PRR/MRR, +50% fortification, +100 healing/repair/negative amplification, +100 spellpower and +10% doublestrike/doubleshot. This feat now requires Spell Focus: Conjuration as a pre-requisite.

    Druid Past Life will give +2 to all ability scores to all summons, pets, hirelings, and charmed mobs. In addition, summoned mobs and pets gain +10 PRR/MRR, +10% fortification, +20 healing/repair/negative amplification, +20 spellpower and +2% doublestrike/doubleshot.

    Harbinger of Nature's Wrath (Active druid PL) will give in addition to its current effects: All summons, pets and hirelings Resist 10 to all elemental damage (raises to 20 at level 12, 30 at level 18, 40 at level 24, and 50 at level 30) and will get +100 Melee and Ranged Power, and +300 Spell Power.

    Seasoned (Season's Herald core 1) will give in addition to its current effects: You get a +1 caster level to all conjuration spells of the summoning sub-school for each Core enhancement on this tree. (This is only because this is the caster tree to druids. If they get a third tree summon-based, the bonus shifts to that tree)

    Archmage Specialization: Conjuration will give in addition to its current effects: You get a +1 caster level to all conjuration spells of the summoning sub-school for each Core enhancement on this tree.

    Grand Summoner (T5 Magister) Summons and pets gain +4 to all ability scores, +50% health, increased fort and AC (50%), +4 to all saves, and a 40% increase to movement speed.

    Natural Shielding (T2 Primal Avatar) gives +MRR in addition to PRR, but otherwise, stay unchanged.

    The Oncoming Storm (T3 Primal Avatar) will raise the proc chance to 5%. Otherwise, stay unchanged.
    This is really well-thought-out, and it looks really solid. I don't know if every level of every summon spell needs to have all three types (offensive, defensive, special), but perhaps they could just keep the current selection, but put them in one of those three categories, so they could get some buffs in accordance with which class they are given.
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  4. #4
    Community Member Hobgoblin's Avatar
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    i like this.

    i like this a lot!

    another alternative, though it would be really labor intensive, would be taking from a game that shall not be named. you would hunt down a monster and train it as a pet. u could only have one at a time and it levels up the more you use it. it would tr with you if you are an appropriate class (ranger/druid?) and could pull levers, attack etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hobgoblin View Post
    i like this.

    i like this a lot!

    another alternative, though it would be really labor intensive, would be taking from a game that shall not be named. you would hunt down a monster and train it as a pet. u could only have one at a time and it levels up the more you use it. it would tr with you if you are an appropriate class (ranger/druid?) and could pull levers, attack etc.
    You are talking table top D&D of course.
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  6. #6
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    I started running your suggestions down and really looking at them. All in all I think they are good suggestions, but there are a couple of bad ideas, and a couple of suggestions I think should me implemented differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post

    Summoned monsters will have a CR equal to the caster level of the summoner
    As a wizard, then why would I want to take Summon Monster III, IV, and so on? That literally kills some 8 different spells, and ALL of them are in the D&D canon. This takes us further away from the D&D roots.

    So I don’t think this is a good idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Summon Monster Spells should have three options per spell: Defensive, Offensive, and Special

    Allow some minor control over your summons
    Every level 1 character will get a new feat, called "summon control" that will have three commands that can be dragged to a hotbar:
    I like these ideas, but I think you’re going to run into a whole lot of technical issues, especially seeing that they can’t even get Hireling AI right (telling a hireling to stay put, only to find them right behind me when I need a heal is NOT what I want in many instances).

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Feats and Enhancements

    Spell Focus: Conjuration will also provide a +2 Caster Level to all conjuration spells of the Summoning subschool (so it doesn't boost things like Acid Blast). The same applies to Greater and Epic SF.
    You know, if you wanted to create a boost to the CR level of a summoned creature, THIS would be the place to put it…under the current Spell Focus feat. And I don’t think that would move us away from the roots of the game in general. Instead of quantity, you need a way to provide quality of the summon (CR level). You could modify the Spell Focus: Conjuration stuff to provide a +4 CR boost per feat (a total of +8 for taking both of them, and +12 if you take Epic Spell Focus). That makes a lvl 20 Hezrou, a lvl 28 / lvl 32 Hezrou in epic content. It makes the summon more valuable in EE than what exists, while not making it too powerful. Then use other Spell Focus boosters (like Conjuration I, II, III, etc.) add another +2 to the CR level. So a lvl 20 wizard at with both Spell Focus feats, and a Cannith Crafted Conjuration II item summons a Hezrou with a CR of 32 / 34. It makes the investment into Conjuration worth more than it is now, given that the only DC you’re really interested in is for that entire spell line is basically Web and Trap the Soul.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post

    Augment Summoning will give +4 to all ability scores to all summons, pets, hirelings, and charmed monsters. In addition, summoned mobs will gain +50 PRR/MRR, +50% fortification, +100 healing/repair/negative amplification, +100 spellpower and +10% doublestrike/doubleshot. This feat now requires Spell Focus: Conjuration as a pre-requisite.
    I like this, but if you couple it with what I suggested above, you might want to tone down the numbers a bit. I was going to argue against having Spell Focus : Conjuration as a pre-requisite, but I believe that this is a requirement of D&D as well.

    It would be interesting to see what this would do to a Ranger summons – Investing in Spell Focus : Conjuration, taking Augment Summon, then add a stacking Magic Fang and Animal Growth. That could compensate for the current marathon suckage that represents Ranger summons at present.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post

    Grand Summoner (T5 Magister) Summons and pets gain +4 to all ability scores, +50% health, increased fort and AC (50%), +4 to all saves, and a 40% increase to movement speed.
    Ok, this is a good idea, but I think you might want to go a different way: give them an additional summon. Right now you get a Lich summon, and I don’t think it works in conjunction with something like a Hezrou – its either one or the other (not sure if this is the case because these days in epic, I just don’t bother with summons any more…they suck). So you MIGHT want to go with an additional tree in Magister that gives you:
    1) Lich Summon (already there), works in conjunction with another summon – Tier 1
    2) Summons get +20% / +30% / +40% health – Tier 2,
    3) Increased fort and AC (+10% / +20% / +30%) – Tier 3,
    4) Increased Saves, 2D6 / 3D6/ 4D6 Force Damage on each attack – Tier 4,
    5) Summon Fury: 100 SP, summons get +40% movement speed, +6 CR level, and a bunch of other OP goodness for 30 seconds – Tier 5.
    This way, someone who invests in summoning gets an actual payoff in their investment. And Magistar now provides some actual value for casters (imagine that!).

    The downside is that it gives a PM with an undead pet three potential summons, and I think Turbine would squash this. Maybe it could make the Lich summon a replacement for the skelly summon as opposed to the summons from the spell line?

    Don’t get me wrong: I like a lot of your ideas. I just think they could be implemented differently under the current framework.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I started running your suggestions down and really looking at them. All in all I think they are good suggestions, but there are a couple of bad ideas, and a couple of suggestions I think should me implemented differently.
    Thanks for the feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    As a wizard, then why would I want to take Summon Monster III, IV, and so on? That literally kills some 8 different spells, and ALL of them are in the D&D canon. This takes us further away from the D&D roots.
    In D&D 3.5, you have a much larger list of options for each level of Summon Monster spells. Including the possibility to summon more monsters of a lower level list.

    In DDO, the incentive to use spells of higher levels would be to get more options available. SM1 have a dog that trip on hit, SM2 have a black widow that throw webs, SM3 have hellhounds and winter wolves, both immune to an element, SM4 have bearded devils (teleport and curses), SM5 have earth elementals (earthgrab), SM6 have troll (regeneration), and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    I like these ideas, but I think you’re going to run into a whole lot of technical issues, especially seeing that they can’t even get Hireling AI right (telling a hireling to stay put, only to find them right behind me when I need a heal is NOT what I want in many instances).
    Like I said in the OP, while I try my best to keep creation of new code to a minimum, I can't limit myself on previous errors to prevent me from adding suggestions.

    Also, there is a major difference between hirelings and summons: Summons are, by default, disposable. You call them, they do their thing, and if they die, you can just summon another. While if a hireling die, you either have to raise them yourself (via spells, scrolls, or cakes), or go ahead solo with a dead hireling in the backpack (which brings the impression of "useless" hirelings and you don't call it again on the next quest).

    A better summon is less disposable then the current "get a mean look and die" summons, but they are still disposable. If anything happens that you don't like a summon, you can call another one in ten seconds, tops.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    You know, if you wanted to create a boost to the CR level of a summoned creature, THIS would be the place to put it…under the current Spell Focus feat. And I don’t think that would move us away from the roots of the game in general. Instead of quantity, you need a way to provide quality of the summon (CR level). You could modify the Spell Focus: Conjuration stuff to provide a +4 CR boost per feat (a total of +8 for taking both of them, and +12 if you take Epic Spell Focus). That makes a lvl 20 Hezrou, a lvl 28 / lvl 32 Hezrou in epic content. It makes the summon more valuable in EE than what exists, while not making it too powerful. Then use other Spell Focus boosters (like Conjuration I, II, III, etc.) add another +2 to the CR level. So a lvl 20 wizard at with both Spell Focus feats, and a Cannith Crafted Conjuration II item summons a Hezrou with a CR of 32 / 34. It makes the investment into Conjuration worth more than it is now, given that the only DC you’re really interested in is for that entire spell line is basically Web and Trap the Soul.
    First off, a fresh summoned Hezrou right now is not CR 20. I think it is CR 15, but I need to recheck. I'm sure it is below 20. That's why I think equalizing their CRs to the caster is necessary. It is not like a CR X monster isn't much less powerful than a level X character.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Ok, this is a good idea, but I think you might want to go a different way
    I wanted to mess the least possible with current enhancements and epic destinies. Grand Summoner already grants 70% of what I put on the list. I just added some minor bonus on top.

    I have a ton of ideas to spread, and I intend to deliver them eventually. Revamping Magister is on my list, because right now it barely has anything interesting. But that is for another topic on another time.

    Call Kindred Being should receive some attention, but using the other suggestions to scale it up (equalizing CR, more beef on summon-based feats, etc), I think they will fare well.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    well thought out
    +1

  9. #9
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    Thanks for the feedback.

    In D&D 3.5, you have a much larger list of options for each level of Summon Monster spells. Including the possibility to summon more monsters of a lower level list.

    In DDO, the incentive to use spells of higher levels would be to get more options available. SM1 have a dog that trip on hit, SM2 have a black widow that throw webs, SM3 have hellhounds and winter wolves, both immune to an element, SM4 have bearded devils (teleport and curses), SM5 have earth elementals (earthgrab), SM6 have troll (regeneration), and so on.
    Expanding the list of available summons is more of a technical issue. There are some monsters there that are not in DDO per se. So you'll probably be limited to what they already have, which means the current selections. I don't see movement on this front.

    And I think you misunderstood my point here. Making a CR level equal to that of the caster, I believe, breaks the D&D rules. It's been a long time since I played D&D, but if you use Summon Monster I, you'll get a CR 1 regardless of the level of the caster. The CR of the mob is fixed with the level of the spell. What is not fixed (potentially) is the number of mobs summoned, and that's not going to be implemented because it'll cause lag. Big time.

    So if you want Summon Monster I to be more viable in upper-level content, you'll have to go about it a different way. Needless to say, at one point, something like Summon Monster I itself is just not viable given DDOs limitations.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    First off, a fresh summoned Hezrou right now is not CR 20. I think it is CR 15, but I need to recheck. I'm sure it is below 20. That's why I think equalizing their CRs to the caster is necessary. It is not like a CR X monster isn't much less powerful than a level X character.
    You may be right about the CR of the Hezrou. I'm trying to do this from memory seeing that...{AHEM}...the game is down.

    I agree that if I'm lvl 20 with the appropriate metas, using Summon Monster IX should scale up the summon to lvl 20. But it shouldn't be to the level of the caster because a lvl 20 caster can use Summon Monster I to get a lvl 20 Celestial Dog. But the CR of a Celestial Dog, I believe, is sub-CR 1. If that's the case, then it is a HUGE break from D&D.

    (Someone correct me here on the numbers because it has been a looooong time since I played P&P.)

    I think maybe you should say that you want to re-scale summons starting at 20, and working down. Mainly because 20 is the end of Heroic, with a lvl 9 spell.



    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I wanted to mess the least possible with current enhancements and epic destinies. Grand Summoner already grants 70% of what I put on the list. I just added some minor bonus on top.
    I genuinely like the idea of a Grand Summoner. But top-tier selections are considered "epic moment" stuff, in general - like Blitz and Rain of Arrows, and such. So having a static, across the board ability may not be doable. Likewise, filling in some of the yawn-inducing stuff in Magister would also be as blessing.

    And adding force damage to a summons attack, to me, sounds tasty. Hence the reason I offered it.

  10. #10
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    And I think you misunderstood my point here. Making a CR level equal to that of the caster, I believe, breaks the D&D rules. It's been a long time since I played D&D, but if you use Summon Monster I, you'll get a CR 1 regardless of the level of the caster. The CR of the mob is fixed with the level of the spell.

    (...)

    I agree that if I'm lvl 20 with the appropriate metas, using Summon Monster IX should scale up the summon to lvl 20. But it shouldn't be to the level of the caster because a lvl 20 caster can use Summon Monster I to get a lvl 20 Celestial Dog. But the CR of a Celestial Dog, I believe, is sub-CR 1. If that's the case, then it is a HUGE break from D&D.
    I believe your major issue then is a break of lore by inflated CR of mobs that should be of a lower CR. I know how you feel, I cringe every time I see a Deer Poacher with the same CR as a devil general. However, breaking the CR from PnP is a lost battle, so why not use it to make the game more diverse?

    But CR by itself is not everything. As I said, the major bonus of the higher level spells is more options. Even using the current summon list (not revamped by my second suggestion), the celestial dog is already bypassed by both the Winter Wolf (SM3) and the Shadow Worg (SM4), both being dog-like (trip on bite), but with additional characteristics that the celestial dog don't have (Immunity to cold, frost breath; incorporeal, strength damage on hit). On the other hand, a bearded devil, an orthon and a hezrou are three fiendish monsters, but each have their own strengths and weaknesses.

    Actually, if you look really close, all monsters in Summon monster 1 and 2 are easily bypassed by counterparts in higher level summon spells right now. To avoid that is the major reason why I added the suggestion about revamping the lists to fill roles.

    In PnP, if you really, really, really, REALLY wanted to summon a celestial dog as a level 20 caster, you can rapid fire a cheap wand (crafted by you) to summon dozens of them in a minute and balance on numbers. A real high level summoner don't even use Summon Monster that much, they prefer things like Gate that, despite the XP cost, allow the summoner to call really strong beings. In DDO neither of those alternatives are valid, so keeping the monsters viable is the major way to keep options open.
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    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  11. #11
    Community Member SealedInSong's Avatar
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    Default Good ideas, Nibel.

    I'd also like to link this thread with this other thread "An Idea to (Maybe) Save Summons"

    Quoting myself below because I think it's relevant

    Quote Originally Posted by SealedInSong View Post
    Here are relatively easy (from a dev perspective fixes) that would get me to consider building a summoner in DDO, which is absolutely one of my favorite styles of play in several other games (Necromancers in Diablo, pit fiend-gating in Baldur's Gate, twin spirit perk in Skyrim, etc):

    *caster level (not character, not class) gives something like 2 PRR/MRR, Melee/Ranger power, spell power to all summons. This is a modest but noticeable and SCALING benefit to the summon that isn't an easy-button for characters UMD-scrolling the summon.

    *change augment summoning feat FROM:
    Your summoned creatures, charmed minions, and hirelings have +4 to all ability scores, increased health (amount equal to what the the toughness feat would grant - Total Hitdice +2), and increased fortification (+50%).
    TO:
    Your summoned creatures, charmed minions, and hirelings have +2 to all ability scores, 1 toughness feat, and 25% fortification per your 5 character levels (progression: 1, 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30)
    Ex: at charlvl 25, your summons would have +12 to abilities, +6 toughness feats, and 150% fort. I would say that's pretty good but not overpowered for a poor AI meatbag.

    *change grand summoner magister enhancement FROM:
    Grand Summoner: Passive Bonus: Summons gain +4 to all ability scores, increased health, increased fort (50%) and a 40% increase to movement speed. Stack with augment summoning and similar effects.
    To:
    Grand Summoner: Passive Bonus: Summons gain +4 to all ability scores, 1 toughness feat per (your) two epic character level, increased fort (50%) and a 40% increase to movement speed. Stack with augment summoning and similar effects.
    Ex: at charlvl 25 with augment summoning and grand summoner, your summons would have +16 to abilities, +8 toughness feats, 200% fort, and 40% increased movement speed. Again, I think that would make them not instantly die as they do even in EH, and possibly be able to do a bit of damage if buffed correctly.

    *summons scale with very modestly with both dungeon difficulty and party size.
    Why modestly? Well, character abilities do not scale with difficulty and party size; they opt into doing harder dungeons or grouping with others. That said, since summons are generally unintelligent or downright a poor choice for party play, it makes sense to give them extra buffers from difficulty/party size scaling.

    *heighten spell affects summon CR level
    Other have asked, and I agree. I see no reason why certain summons I love, including celestial dog, lantern archon, eladrin bralani, water elemental, umbral warg, elder ghaele, greater air elemental, bezekira, etc (the list goes on...) shouldn't be given a few CRs if I choose to expend more SP summoning them.
    I would say this is a quality of life and character development enhancement on par with the mirror of glamering.
    If I have a character that always wants to be accompanied by a whirlwind, or a lantern, or a puppy (or a wolf pup and a celestial dog and a cosmetic dog), then why not? Adds more to the game in all the best ways.

    HARD THINGS TO IMPLEMENT
    (from a dev perspective, but what I'd still want to see)

    *each summon has an action bar
    I assume this is difficult but it might not be. Lots of people have suggested it.
    I also assume that giving them an action bar would presuppose that they have a class, which I do not think all summons do. I think that most (and I cannot think of an exception) are likely just cloned monster types, whereas hirelings (including the onyx panther and owlbear) have actual classes.

    *feat for having two summons at once
    self-explanatory

    Response to OP
    Originally Posted by Palatimus
    1. Make it so that summons no longer die alongside with suggestions #2 through #4
    I feel I addressed this
    2. Up SP cost
    Unnecessary, I think
    3. Be able to send your summon to its home plane at which ever time
    Yes, please. In fact, I think this is pivotal.
    4. Wasnt too sure about this one make them last a shorter amount of time before they leave
    I would say no. Point3 covers that.
    Last edited by SealedInSong; 04-07-2015 at 02:09 AM.
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  12. #12
    Community Member bsquishwizzy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    I believe your major issue then is a break of lore by inflated CR of mobs that should be of a lower CR. I know how you feel, I cringe every time I see a Deer Poacher with the same CR as a devil general. However, breaking the CR from PnP is a lost battle, so why not use it to make the game more diverse?
    LOL. Yeah, musta been one helluva deer, that’s for sure! :P

    Or, my personal favorite: epic wolves.

    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    But CR by itself is not everything. As I said, the major bonus of the higher level spells is more options. Even using the current summon list (not revamped by my second suggestion), the celestial dog is already bypassed by both the Winter Wolf (SM3) and the Shadow Worg (SM4), both being dog-like (trip on bite), but with additional characteristics that the celestial dog don't have (Immunity to cold, frost breath; incorporeal, strength damage on hit). On the other hand, a bearded devil, an orthon and a hezrou are three fiendish monsters, but each have their own strengths and weaknesses.

    Actually, if you look really close, all monsters in Summon monster 1 and 2 are easily bypassed by counterparts in higher level summon spells right now. To avoid that is the major reason why I added the suggestion about revamping the lists to fill roles.

    In PnP, if you really, really, really, REALLY wanted to summon a celestial dog as a level 20 caster, you can rapid fire a cheap wand (crafted by you) to summon dozens of them in a minute and balance on numbers. A real high level summoner don't even use Summon Monster that much, they prefer things like Gate that, despite the XP cost, allow the summoner to call really strong beings. In DDO neither of those alternatives are valid, so keeping the monsters viable is the major way to keep options open.
    CR may not be everything, but basically adding more to the list of monsters means more animations, and a lot of major graphical work that I just don’t see them doing. I mean, if I have a CR 20 wolf attacking me, I’m not all that fussy about summoning a CR 20 Celestial Dog. But, in that case, I’d better be using Summon Monster IX, as opposed to Summon Monster I. Mainly because, if that’s the case, you might as well have Summon Monster I, get rid of its duplicates in each spell level, and just scale it to the caster. And THAT is what I’d consider a major break from D&D as those different summon spells exist in D&D.

    Adding to a list with each spell level I don’t have much of a problem with, honestly. But, at one point, you’re going to have to prune that list because of limitations of the screen.

  13. #13
    Community Member DrWily's Avatar
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    Default Update ???: The Great Summon Update!

    First off, I must say... nice job with the proposal.

    Second, I was thinking while going out for a drink, "Hey! DDO Summons seem way too weak, there should be some proposals to change that." So here I am, looking through the forums, to add my thoughts on this.


    Summoned monsters will have a CR equal to the caster level of the summoner
    I don't think this is the best plan, mostly because it would nerf the one good summon in the entire game, even though said summon is quite possibly the hardest to obtain and use due to how good it is. My proposal is in the form of a buff that affects a monster when it's summoned.

    This "Summoned Creature" buff grants a boost to a summon's CR equal to casting modifier (so Charisma for a Sorc, Int for Wizards, Wis for divine casters) + Conjuration DC modifier (since all summons are from Conjuration) on Elite difficulty, and half that value on Hard difficulty. Whether or not it affects the Druid's Wolf pet or the Artificer's Homunculus pet depends, as they already gain boosts from their own enhancement trees (and the Arcanotech tree from Artificers) and are already powerful enough IMO.

    So in general, instead of equalizing a monster's power it gives them a straight up boost. Which may or may not be more fair as most summons already go down in one or two hits in EE. As far as I know summons don't get any PRR without Natural Shielding, and only slightly menial DR for those special summons.


    Allow some minor control over your summons
    Seems pretty good, though there could be some tweaking so that they are more balanced.


    Spell Focus: Conjuration will also provide a +2 Caster Level to all conjuration spells of the Summoning subschool (so it doesn't boost things like Acid Blast). The same applies to Greater and Epic SF.
    Due to my above proposal, this would provide more power for summons.


    Augment Summoning will give +4 to all ability scores to all summons, pets, hirelings, and charmed monsters. In addition, summoned mobs will gain +50 PRR/MRR, +50% fortification, +100 healing/repair/negative amplification, +100 spellpower and +10% doublestrike/doubleshot. This feat now requires Spell Focus: Conjuration as a pre-requisite.
    Maybe, just maybe it should have that prereq. Only problem I see with it is that it penalizes Artificers (virtually every Arti I met has had this feat, and Artificers only have Grease as an offensive Conjuration spell, the only other ones are the Curative Admixtures and the Flame Turret Summon)


    Druid Past Life will give +2 to all ability scores to all summons, pets, hirelings, and charmed mobs. In addition, summoned mobs and pets gain +10 PRR/MRR, +10% fortification, +20 healing/repair/negative amplification, +20 spellpower and +2% doublestrike/doubleshot.

    Harbinger of Nature's Wrath (Active druid PL) will give in addition to its current effects: All summons, pets and hirelings Resist 10 to all elemental damage (raises to 20 at level 12, 30 at level 18, 40 at level 24, and 50 at level 30) and will get +100 Melee and Ranged Power, and +300 Spell Power.
    With that last part of Harbinger, that power boost should start out small and go up with character level. Other than that I think it's fine.


    Seasoned (Season's Herald core 1) will give in addition to its current effects: You get a +1 caster level to all conjuration spells of the summoning sub-school for each Core enhancement on this tree. (This is only because this is the caster tree to druids. If they get a third tree summon-based, the bonus shifts to that tree)

    Archmage Specialization: Conjuration will give in addition to its current effects: You get a +1 caster level to all conjuration spells of the summoning sub-school for each Core enhancement on this tree.
    I fully agree with this. It should affect ED Summons too, since they're listed as Conjuration (I think)


    Grand Summoner (T5 Magister) Summons and pets gain +4 to all ability scores, +50% health, increased fort and AC (50%), +4 to all saves, and a 40% increase to movement speed.

    Natural Shielding (T2 Primal Avatar) gives +MRR in addition to PRR, but otherwise, stay unchanged.

    The Oncoming Storm (T3 Primal Avatar) will raise the proc chance to 5%. Otherwise, stay unchanged.
    I agree with this too.

  14. #14
    Community Member TheGuyYouKnow's Avatar
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    Summoned monsters will have a CR equal to the caster level of the summoner
    all summons need a buff even at the level you get them, heck even if you use a scroll of a spell level you dont have yet they are still bad. they need scale with difficulty and with the number of people in the dungeon so they can at least kill 1 enemy by themselves.

    Summon Monster Spells should have three options per spell: Defensive, Offensive, and Special
    fair enough, we do already have multiple summons at each level they just need themed abilities

    Allow some minor control over your summons
    im all for this but only give it to the caster classes, a fighter should have no dominating will over a fire elemental so they should only have the default behavior

    Feats and Enhancements
    good changes but i would perfer it to be SF:summoning, simply because we already have SF:conjuration
    Last edited by TheGuyYouKnow; 05-03-2015 at 01:52 AM.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by nibel View Post
    In fantasy games in general
    Which has nothing to do with this game, nor should it.

    since the release of epics, they just die too quickly in the high level quests to be worth the SP spent casting them.
    Because they aren't meant for epics.

    Summoned monsters will have a CR equal to the caster level of the summoner
    Nope. Completely misunderstands the point of summoning monsters. They aren't supposed to provide that kind of power.

    Summon Monster Spells should have three options per spell: Defensive, Offensive, and Special
    No. Instead, the list of creatures available should be expanded to match the non-evil creatures on the mothergame lists. For example, for Summon Monster I, we should have the options of selecting
    • Celestial dog
    • Celestial owl
    • Celestial giant fire beetle
    • Celestial porpoise (what? Some people still run Red Fens)
    • Celestial badger (my preference)
    • Celestial monkey


    Allow some minor control over your summons
    If the creature is intelligent and you have a means of communication, yes. Otherwise, no.

    Augment Summoning (snip). This feat now requires Spell Focus: Conjuration as a pre-requisite.
    Nope. Hoses everyone who isn't a Wizard.

    Quote Originally Posted by bsquishwizzy View Post
    Making a CR level equal to that of the caster, I believe, breaks the D&D rules. It's been a long time since I played D&D, but if you use Summon Monster I, you'll get a CR 1 regardless of the level of the caster.
    Nope. You are mis-remembering the rules. For example, Summon Monster I allows you to summon a celestial dog. A dog is CR 1/3 and 1 Hit Die. Adding the Celestial temple to a 1HD creature leaves the CR the same as the base creature, in this case, 1/3. Summon monster IX allow you to summon a couatl (CR 10), elder elemental (CR 11), even a bebilith (CR 10).

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGuyYouKnow View Post
    they need scale with difficulty and with the number of people in the dungeon so they can at least kill 1 enemy by themselves.
    No, they don't. Like the OP, this misunderstands the purpose of summoning spells.

    im all for this but only give it to the caster classes, a fighter should have no dominating will over a fire elemental so they should only have the default behavior
    Another misunderstanding of summoning spells. This isn't Shadowrun (or even AD&D), where summoning is a battle of wills between the caster and the summoned. The spell summons a compliant creature, period. If a fighter scroll summons, the magic still summons a compliant, responsive creature.

    i would perfer it to be SF:summoning, simply because we already have SF:conjuration
    Which is a complete misunderstanding of the feats in question. Summoning is a subschool. Period.

    Do summons need work? Some, but not that much, and not what is presented here. You want summons that are viable in Epics, then lobby for additions to the game of things like
    Dragon Knight (Ritual)
    Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
    Spellcraft DC: 38
    Components: V, S, Ritual
    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: 75 ft.
    Effect: One summoned adult red dragon
    Duration: 20 rounds (D)
    Saving Throw: None (see text)
    Spell Resistance: No
    To Develop: 342,000 gp; 7 days; 13,680 XP. Seed: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon creature other than outsider (+10 DC), summon CR 14 creature (+24 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factor: two additional casters contributing 8th-level spell slots (–30 DC).

    This spell summons an adult red dragon. It appears where you designate and acts immediately. It attacks your opponents to the best of its abilities (on the first round, it prefers to breathe fire on an enemy, if possible). You can direct the dragon not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. This is a ritual spell requiring two other spellcasters, each of which must contribute an unused 8th-level spell slot to the casting.
    Dragon Strike (Ritual)
    Conjuration (Summoning) [Fire]
    Spellcraft DC: 50
    Components: V, S, Ritual, XP
    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: 75 ft.
    Effect: Ten summoned adult red dragons
    Duration: 20 rounds (D)
    Saving Throw: None (see text)
    Spell Resistance: No
    To Develop: 450,000 gp; 9 days; 18,000 XP. Seed: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon creature other than outsider (+10 DC), summon CR 14 creature (+24 DC), summon
    ten creatures (×10 DC). Mitigating factors: eleven additional casters contributing 9th-level spell slots (–187 DC), burn 2,000 XP per caster (–280 DC), 3d6 backlash (–3 DC).

    As dragon knight, except the spell summons ten adult red dragons. On the first round, they all prefer to simultaneously breathe fire on an enemy, if possible.
    XP Cost: 2,000 XP (per caster).
    or
    Summon Behemoth
    Conjuration (Summoning)
    Spellcraft DC: 72
    Components: V, S
    Casting Time: 1 action
    Range: 75 ft.
    Effect: Summoned creature
    Duration: 20 rounds (D)
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No
    To Develop: 648,000 gp; 13 days; 25,920 XP. Seed: summon (DC 14). Factors: summon CR 21 creature (DC +38), 1-action casting time (+20 DC).

    You can summon a behemoth (imagine a Colossal 21 HD eagle or Gorilla) to attack your enemies. It appears where you designate and acts immediately, on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. If you can communicate with the creature, you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other actions. Summoned creatures act normally on the last round of the spell and disappear at the end of their turn.

  16. #16
    Community Member fmalfeas's Avatar
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    You know, Gate is pretty much the only non-epic spell that scales smoothly into epic. When you intentionally gate something specific, the HD of what you can drag from it's home is dependent on your CL (if you chose a specific type of creature, but not a unique one, you can seize control of it for a while, so long as it's HD doesn't exceed twice your CL. You can attempt to gate in specific, individual outsiders as well, but powerful unique outsiders and deities are under no compulsion to come, and if they do, you do NOT have control over them. You may be able to Gate 40HD advanced Astral Deva, but if you try to gate one that is a unique NPC, /if/ it comes, it's gonna do what it pleases.

    I like the gist of the ideas in the OP, but I thought I'd propose an alternate for Gate (specifically). Instead of the 3 mobs with their 'roles', a list of potent outsiders. If the devs wanted to have fun with it, one of the options could even be a sub-multiselector where you name a plane, and just hope.

    My suggestions - Due to the limited number of outsiders we have in game, I can't easily keep it to already animated ones without being silly, or encouraging seriously out of character stuff (Evil isn't an allowable alignment, so I'm not listing Fiends - no Yugoloth, no Baatezu, no Taana'ri. Though if you name Shavarath on a 'just hope' gate, they could show up from that, much to your dismay and horror.) Outsiders will be listed with alignment, and a very brief description.

    LG - Sword Archon - Big, buff, stern, Lawful Good and prone to smiting evil and protecting and tending to good. Mostly smiting though. With arms that turn into flaming holy swords.
    CG - Ghale Eladrin - Yes, the big glowy balls of light. Advanced. Bigger, stronger, glowier than before. With more laser.
    NG - Leonal - This is a Guardinal, the incarnations of Neutral Good. Kind of a humanoid lion. They're the front light fighters of the Guardinals.
    LN - Marut - Yes, a Marut, the Inevitable who punishes those who cheat death. There are other options, but this one is in the game already, and a useful type. It's that, or some kind of Modron.
    CN - Death Slaad - Yes, Chaotic Neutral. I willfully ignore 4e planar stuff. So crazy death frog from Limbo.
    TN - Argenach - A Rilmani, the incarations of Balance. Argenachs primary concern is maintaining the balance of the Prime Material Plane, making them natural choices for bringing here.
    Good in general - Planetar - This is an Angel. Full stop. Yes, Angel - wings, glowing, radiates 'Good' so strongly that you don't even need Detect Good to feel it. They are one of the two most commonly encountered of the Angels (who run the gamut of the 3 Goods), but unlike the Astral Deva, Planetars are soldiers, and frequently assist mortal champions of good against great evils.
    Neutrality in general - Elemental Prince - Technically should be an Elemental Monolith, but we can't fit those in the game, and Princes are comparable in power, without being the size of large buildings. Would just have to select the element in question.

    Thanks to Teleport's multiselector, I know the DDO spell multiselector can handle that list of options.

  17. #17
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    I've always had a thing for pet classes in MMOs, so I'd love to see summons get an overhaul.
    I like your suggestions. I'm a bit worried that they'll still be quite weak, though. The defensive buffs sound good, but it'll be hard to get the offensive to be worth anything. Because non-players attack so slowly, and have no real abillities, chances are you'll have killed all the mobs yourself, by the time the summon does anything useful.

    I hope some of this will be introduced by the time I get to my wizard life ^^

  18. #18
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrWily View Post
    I don't think this is the best plan, mostly because it would nerf the one good summon in the entire game, even though said summon is quite possibly the hardest to obtain and use due to how good it is.
    Easily fixable: Make the caster level on this item be 35, and the summon would be unaffected. Because item-based summons (like scrolls) would still have fixed CL, and not using the character stats. Probably stuff like augment summon would still apply because of the way it is coded, but that is not my intention on the suggestion.

    And thanks to provide an example that buffing the CR of a mob make a summon viable. That thing is basically a hyper buffed tharaak hound.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrWily View Post
    With that last part of Harbinger, that power boost should start out small and go up with character level. Other than that I think it's fine.
    The nice thing about Melee, Ranged, and Spell Power is that it already scales to all levels. +100 Melee Power to a monster is basically "double damage", since almost no monster have a "Melee Power" value. So, a celestial dog will deal 20 damage per bite instead of 10, and a hezrou will deal 100 damage per punch instead of 50.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGuyYouKnow View Post
    good changes but i would perfer it to be SF:summoning, simply because we already have SF:conjuration
    Summoning is a sub-school of Conjuration in PnP.

    Quote Originally Posted by fmalfeas View Post
    You know, Gate is pretty much the only non-epic spell that scales smoothly into epic.
    Yup, and unfortunately, just like (Limited) Wish, Polymorph, and many Illusion spells, they are too open-ended to be perfectly transcribed to a videogame environment. Adding them to DDO will requires a large adaptation that will probably be considered a huge nerf, because the main shtick behind those spells is sheer versatility.

    And we had a precedent for players losing control of their summons: A long time ago, any summoned monsters that were target of a dispel magic or beholder stare, would turn on their masters. Create Undead also gave you control only for a small window of time, until the undeads turned against you. The solution people found was simply to never summon anything.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

  19. #19
    Community Member Lagin's Avatar
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    In classic D&D, familiars or summons have very similar attributes as we do here in DDO.

    That being said, IMO there is no need to make them any better than they are now.

  20. #20
    Hero nibel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferd View Post
    In classic D&D, familiars or summons have very similar attributes as we do here in DDO.
    But we and the monsters we face do not. Ergo, they need to be kept on par.
    Amossa d'Cannith, Sarlona, casually trying Completionist (12/14) [<o>]
    Almost-never-played-alts: Arquera - Chapolin - Fabber - Herweg - Mecanico - Tenma


    I want DDO to be a better game. Those are my personal suggestions on: Ammunition, Archmage, Combat Stances, Deities, Dispel Magic, Epic Destiny Map, Fast Healing, Favor, Favored Enemy, Half-elf Enhancements, Monk Kensai, Monk Stances, Past Life, Potency, Potions, Ranger Spells, Summons, Tiered Loot.

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