Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    48

    Default Double Strike and Off Hand Proc

    Ok, I need some explanations. I am going to restate here the information I read, my build, and the possible conclusions I could come to. Please help me out, and give me the correct answers.

    Quoting the compendium:

    Two Weapon Fighting attacks (weapons or unarmed) have been optimized for performance and balance. Off hand attacks now have a chance to proc (trigger) off of any main hand attacks based on the number of two weapon fighting feats (and related enhancements) you possess. (Instead of being predetermined on certain attacks in the attack chain.)

    Off-Hand Proc
    -A character with no two weapon fighting feats has a base 20% chance to proc off-hand attacks.
    he Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, and Greater Two Weapon Fighting feats now grant a +20% bonus to proc off-hand attacks.
    -Ranger Tempest I and II now grant a +10%/+20% bonus to the chance to proc off-hand attacks when dual wielding instead of a bonus to attack speed.
    -Monk Air Stance and Ranger Tempest I and II now stack with each other for these purposes.

    -A new mechanic has been introduced called "double strike." A character with a double strike chance has a chance to make an additional attack roll with their main hand weapon any time they make a main hand attack, on the target of the first attack. Many speed bonuses have been changed to double strike effects.

    Double Strike
    -The Fighter Alacrity capstone and the Paladin spell Zeal have been changed to a +10% bonus to double strike.
    -Monk Air stances now grant a +2.5%/+5%/+7.5%/+10% insight bonus to double strike chance instead of an insight bonus to attack speed. (The enhancement bonus to attack speed remains.)
    -Ranger Tempest III now grants a +5% double strike chance while wielding two weapons. (The Shield Bonus and to-hit penalty reductions that Tempest grants when wielding two weapons, or the enhancement bonuses to speed from Wind Stance remain unchanged.)

    So to my understanding:

    --Off Hand Proc.--
    Your base chance is 20%.
    TWF gives you +20%, ITWF gives you another +20%, and GTWF gives you another +20%.
    Tempest 1 gives you +10%, tempest 2 gives you +20%.

    Option 1: Therefore, if you have GTWF and Tempest 2, as a level 12 ranger, you will have 100% chance of offhand strike.
    Option 2: The entire TWF line only gives you 20%, so you get a total of 60%.
    Still beyond me: Why they said 'For these purposes air stance and tempest now stack'. Air stance is not stated as giving off hand proc.

    --Double Strike--
    Zeal/Fighter capstone give you 10% bonus.
    Air stance give you 2.5% per level.
    Tempest 3 gives you 5%.

    Option 1: All double strike chances stack.
    Option 2: You only gain the highest double strike.
    Still not clear: Is there a base double strike chance that these numbers improved? Can you only double strike with 2 weapons? If so why is it all based on the main hand weapon?

    Therefore, this character combination:
    Monk 1/Ranger 18, with the tempest line would look something like this:

    Double Strike 7.5% (+ Base chance?)
    Off Hand Proc 60-100% (depending on the TWF line explanation)
    Speed Enhancement 7.5% (From air stance)

    Can someone clarify if the stance enhancement stacks with haste?

    Anyhow, please see if what I am doing is correct, wrong etc. Also perhaps someone has already figured out the max attacks in a minute based on this. I have tried searching for this explained in threads, but have been unsuccessful in finding an adequate answer.

    Thanks in advance, J

  2. #2
    Community Member Valindria's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    1,498

    Default

    The entire chain gives you +60% meaning you have an 80% chance for your main hand attack to trigger an offhand attack.

    Tempest II would have 100% offhand attacks

    Tempest III + I monk in Air would have

    100%/100% with 7.5% chance to DS with the main hand (ie 107.5%/100%).

    Only the main hand can trigger a DS. It works the same for TWF/S&B/THF though if you are a tempest III you only get the 5% DS bonus when 2 weapons are equipped.

    DS can not trigger an offhand.

    Did I forget anything?

  3. #3
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    48

    Default

    Well, first of all, thanks Valindria for verifying that for me. I guess my only remaining questions are:

    -Why did they bother to mention monk air stance in the off hand proc section, and say it stacks with tempest?

    -So a level 11 ranger tempest has 4 on hand attacks, and 3 off hand attacks that automatically trigger 3 more on hand attacks?

    -Assuming the above statement is correct, my 18ranger/1monk build using air stance would have 7 on hand attacks that have a 7.5% chance to double strike?

    -Does air stance stack with haste?

  4. #4
    Community Member Symar-FangofLloth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dal Quor
    Posts
    4,784

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jordanmh84 View Post
    -Why did they bother to mention monk air stance in the off hand proc section, and say it stacks with tempest?

    -So a level 11 ranger tempest has 4 on hand attacks, and 3 off hand attacks that automatically trigger 3 more on hand attacks?

    -Assuming the above statement is correct, my 18ranger/1monk build using air stance would have 7 on hand attacks that have a 7.5% chance to double strike?

    -Does air stance stack with haste?
    1 They didn't use to stack, both being insight bonus to attack speed. Now they both apply, but they don't 'stack' because they provide different bonuses to different things.

    2 Er? You'll have 4 Mainhand attacks, with each mainhand having a 90% chance to have an offhand attack. (At level 11 ranger)

    3 18ranger/1monk in air stance 1 will have 4 main hands, each with a 7.5% to generate an additional bonus mainhand, and with a 100% chance to generate an offhand.

    4 No. Well, the attack speed portion does not (and that portion of the speed boost never did). You get doublestrike regardless.
    Former Xoriat-er. Embrace the Madness.

  5. #5
    Community Member krud's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    The Old Dominion
    Posts
    3,839

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Symar-FangofLloth View Post
    3 18ranger/1monk in air stance 1 will have 4 main hands, each with a 7.5% to generate an additional bonus mainhand, and with a 100% chance to generate an offhand..
    i never played a monk. Do you have to be centered to get the stance bonus? kinda makes it a non-factor for a majority of 'exploiters' if you do need to be centered.
    Last edited by krud; 07-17-2010 at 08:18 PM. Reason: added qualifier: majority
    Ghallanda: Neatoelf15wiz/1rgr, Neetoelf17wiz, NeatoManhuman13rog/6pal/1mnk, NeatoHombrehuman12ftr/6pal/2rog, Kneetoedwarf17clr, Kneedoughdrow18clr/2mnk

    Minimize expectations and you'll never be disappointed

  6. #6
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Posts
    219

    Default

    Yes, you have to be centred for stances.

  7. #7
    Community Member Symar-FangofLloth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Dal Quor
    Posts
    4,784

    Default

    However, if you have the feats, you can get Whirling Steel Strike and be centered with Longswords.
    Former Xoriat-er. Embrace the Madness.

  8. #8
    Community Member gott_ist_tot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    614

    Default

    1) is it possible for a fighter to get 100% offhand procs?
    2) does doublestrike on mainhand have offhand proc chance attached like a normal mainhand? (I think not, just making sure).
    3) Did the 10% alacrity speed bonus equal 10% DPS increase, or is my math wrong?
    4) If DS had a chance of proccing offhand, would 10% DS chance equal 10% DPS increase (given 100% offhand chance)?

    Even if DS mainhand can never produce an offhand, I'd say the DPS increase is bigger than 5% (I'm assuming mainhand hits a bit harder). So, in comparison to old speed boost the 'nerf' doesn't look this big. Like in time you killed 100 orthons, you're going to kill 96 now. Am I getting this right?

  9. #9
    Community Member shablala's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    418

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by gott_ist_tot View Post
    1) is it possible for a fighter to get 100% offhand procs?
    2) does doublestrike on mainhand have offhand proc chance attached like a normal mainhand? (I think not, just making sure).
    3) Did the 10% alacrity speed bonus equal 10% DPS increase, or is my math wrong?
    4) If DS had a chance of proccing offhand, would 10% DS chance equal 10% DPS increase (given 100% offhand chance)?

    Even if DS mainhand can never produce an offhand, I'd say the DPS increase is bigger than 5% (I'm assuming mainhand hits a bit harder). So, in comparison to old speed boost the 'nerf' doesn't look this big. Like in time you killed 100 orthons, you're going to kill 96 now. Am I getting this right?
    1) only if you splash 12ranger tempestII

    2) No

    3) You can say it is 10% increase in DPS to the MAIN hand or THF.

    4) it doesnt have anything to do with offhand.

    5) Yes the nerf was a decrease in DPS but not enough to justify all those who jumped off a building. Before U5 swings were set in place based on BAB. It was not a <chance> to proc anything. Post U5 the chance to proc offhand is a nerf by itself. On top of the that 10% attack speed to both attacks is better than 10% chance to double strike on mainhand.

  10. #10
    Community Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    48

    Default

    To Krud: The exact build I was inquiring about was an exploiter. I altered the build offered here on the forum for my own uses. Instead of khopesh proficiency, I used weapon focus. At level 12, because I already had done 11 levels before u5, I had to alter my strategy. So at level 12 I am going to take my monk level. For my monk feat I will have to take toughness, and my regular feat will be whirling steel strike. The result is:

    At level 12: 7.5% speed increase. 90% off hand proc. 2.5% Double Strike.
    At level 14: As above, but 100% off hand proc.
    At level 20: As 14, but with 7.5% double strike.

    I think the result hasn't compromised the build much, just lose combat expertise (which I almost never use anyhow, although you could toast power attack instead of combat expertise).

    To Everyone Else: So summing up what I've learned from this thread...

    Off Hand Proc: Each on hand attack (primary) has a 'chance' to automatically and simultaneously cause an off hand attack. So it's no longer like PnP where you have a set number depending on the chain. Therefore, you have 8 attacks (4 on hand and 4 off hand) with ranger tempest 2.

    Double Strike: Each on hand attack has a 'chance' to strike twice with the same on hand. As a result, that same attack - since it is with the on hand - can also be subject to the above off hand proc event. The max potential would be a monk2/paladin16 with 12.5%.

    Attacks per minute, rough calculation using semi-incorrect data:
    So we will assume at level 18, this character will have approximately 100 attacks per minute. Because I don't have the time to either check for a current valid thread, or get the data myself, this assumption will work for now.
    -With 100 attacks with your primary, on hand
    -With a 7.5% increase in attack speed, which should be applied first, we will be looking at 108 (approx) on hand attacks
    -With double strike, you are looking at an additional 7.5% chance to gain another attack. This brings attacks to 115 per minute.
    -With off hand proc (which should be applied after all primary attacks are resolving), at 100%, we are now looking at 230 attacks.

    So this build gives you a 230% increase to normal BAB 18 behaviour. Of course there are items you can use to boost standing attack speed via boosting Base Attack Bonus, attack speed, or others. So this 230% will remain true when applied to whatever the true value is, and it is my belief that this is probably the best you will get without spells/items/timed abilities.

    The paladin18/monk2 build comes close with the following:
    -100 attacks.
    -7.5% speed gives 108.
    -12.5% double strike gives 122.
    -With 80% off hand proc (entire TWF line) it comes to 220.

    A pure monk:
    -Unlikely to have 100 attacks, but for the sake of argument
    -15% speed = 115
    -10% double strike = 127
    -80% off hand (entire TWF line) brings it to 229, just shy of the exploiter. However the pure monk will have the highest base dmg.

    So tell me if anything comes up looking wrong and your thoughts.

  11. #11
    Time Bandit
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,028

    Default

    My understanding is that double strike itself doesn't have an additional roll to see if you proc an off-hand attack from it. Thus, the maximum number of hits you'll get in one swing is three -- the main hand attack, the double strike of the main hand, and the off-hand attack.

    I don't have a particularly sourcing for this but if you look carefully at Eladrin's posted numbers in the combat for update 5 thread:

    http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=251248

    you'll see that the offhand numbers remain at 80% even when doublestrike occurs, rather than 88% for example if there is a 10% chance of double strike.

    So it should really be:

    100% main attack chance per swing
    7.5% double strike chance per swing from monk + tempest 3
    100% off hand chance per swing from tempest
    ------
    207.5% or average 2.075 number of attacks per swing

    But since there's a 7.5% attack speed increase, you would multiply this by however much the attack speed increase gives, to get at the effective number of attacks per (regular default speed) swing.

    You can work out the rest in a similar fashion.

    Because how the attack speed stuff works gets pretty complicated, I wouldn't worry about it too much if the difference is just a few attacks per minute between different builds.

  12. #12
    Community Member Orrowan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Probably a newb question, but the terms are so common that I can't seem to find the answer by searching for it:

    Do the Fighter Haste Boost and/or Rogue Haste Boost enhancements stack with any of this? The description doesn't list a type to the attack speed increase, so I wasn't sure if it stacked with the (explicitly typed) enhancement bonus to attack speed from the monk air stance. It seems to, but its awfully hard to judge these things by eyeball when the numbers are streaming past... (I'm a whirling steel ranger monk heading for 13/6/1 monk/ranger/rogue, which I know is not optimal but it amuses me.)

    Thanks,

  13. #13
    Time Bandit
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,028

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Orrowan View Post
    Probably a newb question, but the terms are so common that I can't seem to find the answer by searching for it:

    Do the Fighter Haste Boost and/or Rogue Haste Boost enhancements stack with any of this? The description doesn't list a type to the attack speed increase, so I wasn't sure if it stacked with the (explicitly typed) enhancement bonus to attack speed from the monk air stance. It seems to, but its awfully hard to judge these things by eyeball when the numbers are streaming past... (I'm a whirling steel ranger monk heading for 13/6/1 monk/ranger/rogue, which I know is not optimal but it amuses me.)

    Thanks,
    Yes they stack with all the other attack speed modifiers I think. They're action boosts, which tends to stack with everything.

  14. #14
    Hatchery Founder Glenalth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    A mountain fortress.
    Posts
    4,280

    Default

    The action boosts are now all typed as "action boost" bonuses.
    Glenalth Woodwalke ■ Preston the Ranger ■ Brisqoe the Dentist ■ Prescription Liberator
    AoK @ Argonnessen

  15. #15
    Community Member Orrowan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    22

    Default

    Thanks guys. Think I'll update the DDOwiki page with the "action" typing, in case anyone else wonders...

  16. #16
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    3BC
    Posts
    1,045

    Default Double Strike for Ranged and Thrown Weapons

    Does Double Strike apply to Ranged and Thrown Weapons? Question raised when reading Fighter Capstone; Ranged and Thrown weapons have 10% Competence bonus to Double Strike or to Attack speed? Ty.

  17. #17
    Community Member t0r012's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    'burbs o' Philly
    Posts
    2,396

    Default

    no ranged with fighter cap on gives speed bonus where melee only gives double strike bonus.

    Grants a 10% Competence bonus to chance to double strike with melee weapons and a 10% Competence bonus to attack speed with ranged and thrown weapons
    Move along , Nothing to see here

  18. #18
    Community Member ddobard1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    3BC
    Posts
    1,045

    Post

    So double strike only applies to melee attacks? Ty

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload