Helpful, or elitist?
What's the difference between being helpful and being an elitist?
I had an opportunity today to witness someone asking for help with a build. First life drow cleric, lvl 7. Picked a couple feats that didn't really help the class, and was looking for some advice on what they could have possibly taken instead. It started out fairly cordial, but ended up that the person was told their build basically sucked because they didn't put more into CON than they did, when it would have penalized their build to do so.
I don't have a problem with constructive criticism. But as someone who has taken a first life drow cleric (with the same stats the player had given, tweaked with tomes and gear) to epic before TRing, and did fine in EN/EH content (just me, my sorc bro, and 2 hirelings), I know that with a couple feat tweaks, the player could have done just fine in any heroic adventure. And seeing people tear apart someone's entire build because it didn't fit their own style of play isn't constructive. Nobody had asked if the player had access to 32pt builds. Their stats as a drow were decent, but without 32 points, the alternate races mentioned would have had a hard time matching it. The ONLY upside would have been a couple more points in CON (so trade out turning or spellpoints for 20 more HP).
Telling the player why Constitution is important to all builds is great, because surviving is something everyone wants to do. But telling them that if they don't have x points in it then their build is trash, is not. It seems to me that people have gotten into min/maxing and cookie-cutter builds a bit too much and it shows in how they treat people who try things a little differently. And to me, at least, that's not helpful at all.
The way I see it, if someone asks for help, it is helpful to offer help... Assuming it's good advise anyway.
Now, many times people are not going to give advise you want to hear, that doesn't make it bad advise. Even if it is stated more harshly than is needed, if the guy is right he is right, and he is being helpful.
Then there are those that forget what it's like to play an undergeared first lifer. And many, many people give advise for geared out endgame raiding, and disregard levels 1-24. Things like 'you don't need toughness on a barbarian because you have so many hp anyway' (this might be true of your barb, but not for most of them). They can say it as nicely as possible, but it's still bad advise for the player they are advising.
Advice is one thing. Offering feat changes (the cleric didn't take Empowered Healing, which is the sole feat requirement for the single prestige) was good advice. But telling them they needed to reroll and change race because they didn't have the "minimum CON for any race/class combo" isn't advice, it's dictating someone's character development to them.
I've had issues with getting into raids on a first life rogue due to low HPs (had 302 at 20 and was told I needed 450+ to do Hard Shroud). While I didn't agree with the decision, given that I had done Shroud before on the same rogue, I asked for and received advice on some gear that could provide boosts (Granted, one was to make a tier3 Shroud item...the irony wasn't lost on me). That was good advice. It didn't belittle the choices I made, but instead helped me make my current character better suited to function in those raids. And now I know a few things that can help all my toons have a little better chance at surviving.
The difference would be in tone.
"You should probably find a way to get more Con, because you may find your HP is too low going into mid level or beyond."
"Your Con is way to low. You should delete that character and start over because you will be gimp and you wont be able to complete any quests."
Thats a bit elitist.
Honestly? Any first 28pt character will be trash. Even if you follow a build, you won't have the knowledge or the gear to play it well.
Drow clerics with less than 14 con are sad to watch, because there's nothing for them to grow into. You will end up with a character whose biggest power is the insane overpowered quickened self-healing, but it won't have the HP to abuse it.
Originally Posted by Lord_Cyron
I had same thing happen to me I asked for help and they went on and on and on mainly saying things along the lines of I was dumbest person ever. I listened and held my tongue because chances are this person who is very knowledgeable about the game is a very good player. I am a better player due to his advice. any advice is usually better than no advice.
something to keep in mind is some people who play mmo's have little to no social skills and need help in that department meaning let them know in a nice way. the gentlemen that was rude to me I think is a lot better now after I told him thank you for the advice man I do feel like i was made fun of by the way you told me though. he immedatly changed tones and apologized and said he was just trying to help.
anyways I hope you have better luck in the future.
It all depends on player skill. You probably have enough skill and know how to make a 10/10 sorc/wiz build viable.
Then there are a lot more people out there that couldnt solo Waterworks elite with a 20 FS.
If someone ever asks me for advice (and they have no idea what to do), I fully endorse higher con. You or I can survive with a 10 con. A newer or (incompetent) player may not be able too.
EDIT: I dont say this to be a jerk. When they get to higher level and are booted because of low hp, they will come crying here when it could have been avoided. FYI- I dont boot low hp toons.
Asking for advice will get you advice... good, bad, and ugly.., not all advice is sugar coated.
Originally Posted by Lord_Cyron
Access to 32 point build is irrelivent, Drow is essentially a 32 Build, and drow is still a viable class
At level 7 it is early enough to consider rerolling so if it was an 8 Con Drow with 2poor feat choices... meh a struggle to build con and 2x visits to Fred.. vs rerolling may not be a bad option.
When you ask the opinion of a diverse community that you will be interacting with, you want a range of views that represent that community. You saw a near pefect set of responses. It's quite simple, some don't care, some think the character could perform better and some will not accept that character into their raids.
If he goes forward with the build he can obviously expect to face exclusion at end game from some groups. Of course there are many remedies to this, getting some experience under his belt and then TR'ing not the least. In the end though, best not to see the responses as either elitist or helpful but instead as a fair representation of the community.
Well the con thing isn't necessarily true.
You don't HAVE to have a minimum amount of con. Starting with a lower con is fine so long as they are willing to work the toughness feat multiple times into their final build to get the equivalent of a 14 con before items and tomes.
"Being one shotted from a disintegrate is not fun at later levels so you'll want to have a lot of hit points to work with"
Agree that it's all about the tone. My feeling is that people too often use 'giving advice' as an excuse to be total d**ks.
If the person has low hp, is it really, really that much harder to say things like 'such and such a critter will do x damage per shot to you', than to say 'omgrofl 12 con gimp! Reroll and gtfo, noob'.
Explaining -why- something is a bad idea helps the other person make their own decisions and evaluations in the future. Just telling them something sucks...does not.
And what's the point in giving advice if not to help people? Do people -really- think being abrasive is going to help the other person much? Unless they're just after a smug sense of superiority, in which case the tone makes perfect sense.
As far as being representative of the community, that is an interesting point and a rather unique way of looking at the situation. Props.
Well aside from one or two times, I give the Cannith community kudos, I have asked advice from time to time in game, mostly on crafting and had great results, occasionaly a dungeon question too. There are two people who always say something snarky if they are on, and we all know who they are and have either squelched or ignored them.
Yeah after a while you can pick up on who to listen to and who to take with a grain of salt. Always remember John Gabriel's Greater Internet Theory.
Use that to temper your judgement. =)
no irony... run normal shroud until you get it... I have over 320 shroud runs... most normal back when difficulty didnt provide more chests, some hard and some elite.
Originally Posted by Lord_Cyron
Being that you are rogue it's hard... my first toon to really grind shroud was a drow pally dual wielding rapiers 18 / 2 rogue at 20 he had 414. really squishy... but I got to work on getting her equipment and quickly she was at 519. the thing is if ppl think you are a liability and they have the star they have the right to dismiss you and you have the right to make your own run...
It has happened to me, and I did my run and completed it... no reason to feel bad for getting advice or a kick... just move on ;)
Regarding OP, being a dead healer is bad... really bad... yes you have your free will and creativity but they also have their free will to tell ppl they might need to reroll . and maybe they are right... if someone rolls 10 con... let me tell you, I would also advice at least to LR and to get it to 14 at least. It's really noticeable when you get to 20/25 range.
Lord_Cyron, eventhough what Kmmh say in that quote is true i stopped listen to those guys 3 years ago. See, i´ve had this battle with them for that long. My 28-point 8 con human cleric build can do everything but the epic elite stuff and some of the elite raids. Is it my madz skillz or my toon? I dont know.
Originally Posted by Kmnh
I support your original post Lord_Cyron, hole heartedly. Keep it civil and you´ll be treated with respect. Simple.
Pyreal af Templar
It's all tone.
Originally Posted by Lord_Cyron
Giving build advice can be tricky tho. Sometimes a player has made some poor choices and is really just looking for someone to say: "You'll be fine" or "It's not so bad." So they can go on without having to change anything. Some are really interested in making their character better and do take advice to heart.
But having a measure of tact when you talk to people really does go both ways. I've been on the receiving end of giving good advice in a helpful maner and having the person requesting advice spout off that I didn't know what I was talking about, etc. Sometimes the truth hurts and some folks don't really want to hear that they need to change.
I really would never advise doing the above.
Originally Posted by Chaos000
Way back when the game launched I made a wizard based off a pnp character. Started with 10 con and I think 14 dex (you know for touch attack spells :p ). He was a glass cannon. So I did wind up taking toughness I believe 3 times. The result was a character that had some HP but lacked in DC's & DPS (lack of metas).
So yeah taking multiple toughness to compensate from an error in placement of build points can actually result in a weaker character.
Help = if it is asked for.
Originally Posted by Lord_Cyron
Elitist = downright trashing anything just because of some subjective terms. And without being asked for an opinion.
Being polite applies to both sides but trashing something with diplomatic words may perceived more likely as advice. So,main thing may be the art of how communication is done. Soft skills are as important as is competence ;).
Builds and ideas reach their limits at some point. Sometimes it is earlier than expected. Then you try again differently. If you push the limit you will try again whenever you hit the wall again. This time cannot be gathered by following builds or by simply pushing CON or whatever stat. Builds posted or developped grew over a time.
New players should try whatever they want to get the experience others already have and understand some concepts of min./max.ing.
Gibbering about something being *trash* is not helpful at all. Some things cannot be told and taught. Clerics can have the best items but if they are not familiar with incoming mob dps or watch party members carefully to sense their weaknesses, they will more likely fail.
You have to get to the limits to know and push them but that is not bad at all. In fact, whenever new players read anything else than elite in the LFMs it does not frogging matter whatever they do. Period!
I'll be honest, I haven't been playing this game very much lately, only really just got back into it about a month ago. I've leveled a Paladin to 15 in three weeks (actually, Paladin 13/Fighter 2) and I am loving it.
One of the things I've noticed is this tendency for people to put, "TR only"or "BYOH" in LFG postings. I remember this group I was in for a quest that had three or four casters and a favored soul in it. I was the only one wearing heavy armor. After the first caster died, they told me I was "supposed to tank". Now, I've been in enough games to know that you don't tank unless you have a dedicated healer. The favored soul had heals, but it was BYOH and he hadn't prepared to be the healer. The casters whined about dying, and all I could do was try to taunt (I had only started putting points into Intimidate two levels earlier). It was messy, but at the end I made sure to tell them that if they want someone to tank, then someone else had best damn be healing him.
My main issue is that now at level 15, I'm having to deal with all these groups expecting TRs. It's a very elitist attitude I've begun to see as I get higher and higher in levels, and people don't seem to want to help you out in the least. Your best bet at this point is to find a guild that gives a damn about you and go from there.
Yes, there is a lot of that.
Originally Posted by Quendishir
You are welcome in Hands of Chaos.