Pure Rogue or Pale Master

I was wondering what is the best route to go for soloing. I have seen a few threads mention a PM but I don't know much about that class and have not been able to find builds for it.

How is a pure rogue vs a PM for soloing? I HATE the fact I wouldn't be able to do traps at all. It is just one of my biggest pet peeves but I am not sure how a pure rogue would do compared to a PM in terms of damage and getting out alive at the end of a dungeon once you are higher level.

Any help would be great about the 2 classes and if anyone has time to post solo builds for them that would be great. Sorry, my knowledge is limited when it comes to DDO but there is a lot to learn.

Oh, I do have access to the 32 point build which I know will help a lot when it comes to the rogue class if I really wanted to solo a pure.

Thanks for the help! :)

Edit: I'll reply in about an hour if anyone replies to the thread...dinner calls :P

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Originally Posted by Falvicar27

I was wondering what is the best route to go for soloing. I have seen a few threads mention a PM but I don't know much about that class and have not been able to find builds for it.

How is a pure rogue vs a PM for soloing? I HATE the fact I wouldn't be able to do traps at all. It is just one of my biggest pet peeves but I am not sure how a pure rogue would do compared to a PM in terms of damage and getting out alive at the end of a dungeon once you are higher level.

Any help would be great about the 2 classes and if anyone has time to post solo builds for them that would be great. Sorry, my knowledge is limited when it comes to DDO but there is a lot to learn.

Oh, I do have access to the 32 point build which I know will help a lot when it comes to the rogue class if I really wanted to solo a pure.

Thanks for the help! :)

Edit: I'll reply in about an hour if anyone replies to the thread...dinner calls :P

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Honestly in my opinion your best bet is 18 wizard/2 rogue if you want to solo. The wizard will provide you the ability to self heal if you go palemaster, and the 2 rogue will give you evasion and the ability to get traps (actually this build will be better at traps than a pure rogue because of the extremely high int). If you do this, make sure your first level is as a rogue..because you get tons more skill points this way.

I agree with marinerfan. Go 18/2 palemaster/rogue. Be sure your Intelligence score is high enough to have enough skill points for each wizard level to keep your rogue skills maxed out.

Rogues can hardly solo. I would advise you go 18 wiz/2 rogue if you want to do traps.

Thanks for the suggestions. Are there any builds out there or guides I could read up on or follow for an 18/2 wiz/rogue? I honestly hate doing things wrong the first time around.

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Originally Posted by Falvicar27

Thanks for the suggestions. Are there any builds out there or guides I could read up on or follow for an 18/2 wiz/rogue? I honestly hate doing things wrong the first time around.

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There are some guides. Best would be to use search or look in class forums under spell casters/wizards.

You didn't say if you were 28 or 32 pt. build so I will assume 28

Human, Elf, or Drow (This is Human build, would have to modify for Elf/Drow)
Neutral
Int - 18; Con - 16; Str - 10

lvl 1: Rogue
lvl 2-8: Wizard*
lvl 9: Rogue
lvl 10-20: Wizards
* = Keep leveling in Wizard until you get Firewall, then grab your second level of Rogue. You can put off the second level of Rogue until 10 if you like.

Skills:
Level 1 - (Balance, Disable Device (DD), Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock (OL), Search, Spot, Tumble, UMD, Hide, Diplomacy, Haggle) x4

Level 2 to 20*: Concentration, UMD, DD, Search (Make sure they are maxed by 20)
*=When you take the Rogue level at 9, you will have a ton of skill points. Ignore Concentration (you can make up for it next level) and do UMD, DD, Search, and OL

Feats*
1 - Toughness; HB - Insightful Reflexes;
2 WB - Extend
3 - Mental Toughness (@ LTR Switch to Spell Pen)
6 - SF: Necro; WB - Empower
9 - Quicken
12 - GSF: Necro; WB - Heighten
15 - Spell Pen (@ LTR Switch to Greater Spell Pen)
17 WB - SF:Enchantment
18 - Greater Spell Pen (@ LTR Switch to GSF: Enchantment)
* = Requires a Lesser TR @ 18 or someone who is a better planner than me :( ;) :p

Enhancements
Take all Pre-Req for Palemaster
Spell Lines: 7/1/1 is the general consensus x 2 (or 3) schools. Most popular are Fire/Anything until Vale, switch to Acid/Ice to 20'ish and back to Fire/Acid 21-25.

As far as play style, I'm still learning myself but....
Level 1-12. Grab a nice 2H weapon, Master's Touch, Blur, and some form of healing (I used Hirelings) and level that way. Best I can think of would be Burst/Lacerating on a Great sword. (Note: There are some named 2H weapons that are really good, and better than what I mentioned, but I am assuming you don't have one of those.) Once you have Fire Wall, soften them up with a Wall and Swing at anything that refuses to die :)

There's another option, that takes much less game knowledge and fiddling to do well.

Artificer.

Solid damage, top-tier trap disabling and detection, decent HP and AC, spells providing AoE damage including the powerful blade barrier and flame turret, and runearms further buffing your damage and adding special attacks of their own.

A Warforged artificer can also self-heal very, very well. The only special suggestion with Artificer is to take Quicken Spell, because Reconstruct, Blade Barrier, and Flameturret are spells you don't want interrupted.

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Originally Posted by Rogann

Rogues can hardly solo. I would advise you go 18 wiz/2 rogue if you want to do traps.

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Agreed. A solo rogue is incredibly tough. A wizard, is fun and easy to solo.

Be aware that you will need to put in some work to acquire the gear needed to make an 18 wiz / 2 rogue work for you.

I went pure rogue and found that I was not able to consistently spot and disable traps on normal difficulty levels, once I got further into the game. If I had been more willing to fiddle around on the auction house I could have done it, and if you're relatively new to the game then you'll probably need to invest time in the auction house to generate the platinum needed to buy and keep upgrading gear to be good at traps, with only 2 levels in rogue.

The poster above suggested artificer, and that's a good suggestion if you'd really like to get traps, but don't want to spend a lot of time in the auction house.

Consider this a token post to the effect that new players can often really struggle to solo as a wizard, and moreso as a wizard who delays his spell levels.

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Originally Posted by AbyssalMage

There are some guides. Best would be to use search or look in class forums under spell casters/wizards.

You didn't say if you were 28 or 32 pt. build so I will assume 28

Human, Elf, or Drow (This is Human build, would have to modify for Elf/Drow)
Neutral
Int - 18; Con - 16; Str - 10

lvl 1: Rogue
lvl 2-8: Wizard*
lvl 9: Rogue
lvl 10-20: Wizards
* = Keep leveling in Wizard until you get Firewall, then grab your second level of Rogue. You can put off the second level of Rogue until 10 if you like.

Skills:
Level 1 - (Balance, Disable Device (DD), Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock (OL), Search, Spot, Tumble, UMD, Hide, Diplomacy, Haggle) x4

Level 2 to 20*: Concentration, UMD, DD, Search (Make sure they are maxed by 20)
*=When you take the Rogue level at 9, you will have a ton of skill points. Ignore Concentration (you can make up for it next level) and do UMD, DD, Search, and OL

Feats*
1 - Toughness; HB - Insightful Reflexes;
2 WB - Extend
3 - Mental Toughness (@ LTR Switch to Spell Pen)
6 - SF: Necro; WB - Empower
9 - Quicken
12 - GSF: Necro; WB - Heighten
15 - Spell Pen (@ LTR Switch to Greater Spell Pen)
17 WB - SF:Enchantment
18 - Greater Spell Pen (@ LTR Switch to GSF: Enchantment)
* = Requires a Lesser TR @ 18 or someone who is a better planner than me :( ;) :p

Enhancements
Take all Pre-Req for Palemaster
Spell Lines: 7/1/1 is the general consensus x 2 (or 3) schools. Most popular are Fire/Anything until Vale, switch to Acid/Ice to 20'ish and back to Fire/Acid 21-25.

As far as play style, I'm still learning myself but....
Level 1-12. Grab a nice 2H weapon, Master's Touch, Blur, and some form of healing (I used Hirelings) and level that way. Best I can think of would be Burst/Lacerating on a Great sword. (Note: There are some named 2H weapons that are really good, and better than what I mentioned, but I am assuming you don't have one of those.) Once you have Fire Wall, soften them up with a Wall and Swing at anything that refuses to die :)

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I did state I have the 32 point build. :) Thanks for the replies all.

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Originally Posted by FrozenNova

Consider this a token post to the effect that new players can often really struggle to solo as a wizard, and moreso as a wizard who delays his spell levels.

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I'm surprised no one mentioned this earlier.

The other thing to consider is if the player is simply tr'ing at lvl 20 or continuing on to 25 and end game. You lose two levels of casting ability, as well as capstone, etc. Multiclass caster trs are a no brainer for quickly solo leveling, but if you aren't tr'ing, this is something to consider.

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Originally Posted by Falvicar27

Are there any builds out there or guides I could read up on or follow for an 18/2 wiz/rogue? I honestly hate doing things wrong the first time around.

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Yep, complete build detailed in the Pale Trapper thread linked in signature.

Thanks again everyone and I looked at your build you have EllisDee, thanks. My other question is it worth it to TR or just go to level 25 as a 18/2 wiz/rogue?

If I do TR then I should do so at level 20 right? Not level 25?

Alot is going to depend on how you define "soloing".

Yeah, I know that's sort of like asking "Who is buried in Grant's Tomb?" but, really, some define it as strictly-by- yourself adventuring, while others say it's you and your hire(s). If you go with the latter, pretty much any class can solo well. If you're going with the former, than absolutely I'd suggest either a pure PM or a WIZ/ROG multiclass.

Also, much depends on your playstyle. A Rogue can solo effectively, but certainly not as efficiently as a Wizard. Rogues soloing need to become experts in pulling via Bluff so that they can break spawns into a series of single pulls rather than pulling entire groups of mobs. Having high UMD so they can wand and scroll heal is imperative. But if the player behind the character isn't patient, the character is going to die very often and frustration sets in.

I ran a WF WIZ/ROG to 20 (18/2 split) before Epic levels and such and found that I almost never had problems with end-game traps, even on Epic difficulty. The much higher INT makes up for comparative lacks of ranks in the various Rogue-ly skills. I can't say how I would have fared in Epic content because I TR'ed before the expansion. I would guess that I could have handled most, if not all, Epic Normal difficulty and most Epic Hard difficulty traps and locks (I have a pure ROG at level 22 who has had no problems so far, not even blowing a disable on a roll of 1 on EH difficulty and her skills are not >that< higher than my multiclasses' was). My shortcoming was more in terms of not having the Wizard capstone- that really does seem to make a substantial difference in the new content.

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Originally Posted by Falvicar27

If I do TR then I should do so at level 20 right? Not level 25?

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I TRed at either 21 or 22. It doesn't much matter, to be honest, though if you TR immediately at 20 you definitely won't need to worry about the (pretty rare) bug where reincarnating erases all your destiny xp. Generally speaking, yes I would recommend a single TR but it's not required.

I've now gotten him back to 23, and only need around 800k to hit the epic cap and start farming fate points for real. I really want magister with energy burst twisted in, and that's a tier 4 meaning I need 30 fate points. Oofa.

On the plus side, epic normal drow are CR22, and since they have spell resistance of CR+10 that means spell pen of 30 is "fail only on a 1." My build just happens to have 30 spell pen while leveling destinies, so that's a fortunate coincidence. You need 38 for "fail only on a 1" for epic hard drow, and the build gets 5 from autogrants and 3 from piercing, so take that 8 away and I'm left with 30 while leveling up the non-arcane destinies.

I took my first 9 levels in magister and draconic, giving me the 3 fate points to twist in necro specialist from magister with its +3 necro dc while leveling off destinies. All in all, I'm quite pleased with how the numbers landed.

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Originally Posted by LordMond63

I can't say how I would have fared in Epic content because I TR'ed before the expansion. I would guess that I could have handled most, if not all, Epic Normal difficulty and most Epic Hard difficulty traps and locks (I have a pure ROG at level 22 who has had no problems so far, not even blowing a disable on a roll of 1 on EH difficulty and her skills are not >that< higher than my multiclasses' was). My shortcoming was more in terms of not having the Wizard capstone- that really does seem to make a substantial difference in the new content.

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I've not had any trouble in epic hard trapping skills with the exception of the rare uber skill check, like that one chest in trial by fire with a 70 open lock or something ridiculous like that.

I've yet to meet an epic hard trap I couldn't spot, search and disable easily without even bothering with greater heroism. This includes the xpack and the VON series, both of which I soloed in the past week for bravery. The epic spyglass helps a lot, though, but the extra 5 search/spot you lose out on without one can be mostly made up using GH.

Not having the capstone really only loses me 1 dc, which would help a little but meh, he does fine without it. The 2 spell pen isn't a difference because I'm only aiming for 38 which I'm hitting anyway.

EDIT: Actually, if you do plan to TR him I recommend running 20 ADQs looking for a torc on your first life. Torc is ridiculously, absurdly overpowered while leveling. For me I committed to getting the torc no matter what before TRing, and pulled it on my 40th list. That torc-farming time can be spent leveling destinies, I suppose. (~35 of my 40 ADQ runs were done solo.)

EDIT2: And if at all possible, ML12, 16, 20 and 24 mabar robes would be super. They're no longer the best of the best for epic levels -- +3 insightful int spidersilk is better -- but they're still really, really good.

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Originally Posted by EllisDee37

I TRed at either 21 or 22. It doesn't much matter, to be honest, though if you TR immediately at 20 you definitely won't need to worry about the (pretty rare) bug where reincarnating erases all your destiny xp. Generally speaking, yes I would recommend a single TR but it's not required.

I've now gotten him back to 23, and only need around 800k to hit the epic cap and start farming fate points for real. I really want magister with energy burst twisted in, and that's a tier 4 meaning I need 30 fate points. Oofa.

On the plus side, epic normal drow are CR22, and since they have spell resistance of CR+10 that means spell pen of 30 is "fail only on a 1." My build just happens to have 30 spell pen while leveling destinies, so that's a fortunate coincidence. You need 38 for "fail only on a 1" for epic hard drow, and the build gets 5 from autogrants and 3 from piercing, so take that 8 away and I'm left with 30 while leveling up the non-arcane destinies.

I took my first 9 levels in magister and draconic, giving me the 3 fate points to twist in necro specialist from magister with its +3 necro dc while leveling off destinies. All in all, I'm quite pleased with how the numbers landed.
I've not had any trouble in epic hard trapping skills with the exception of the rare uber skill check, like that one chest in trial by fire with a 70 open lock or something ridiculous like that.

I've yet to meet an epic hard trap I couldn't spot, search and disable easily without even bothering with greater heroism. This includes the xpack and the VON series, both of which I soloed in the past week for bravery. The epic spyglass helps a lot, though, but the extra 5 search/spot you lose out on without one can be mostly made up using GH.

Not having the capstone really only loses me 1 dc, which would help a little but meh, he does fine without it. The 2 spell pen isn't a difference because I'm only aiming for 38 which I'm hitting anyway.

EDIT: Actually, if you do plan to TR him I recommend running 20 ADQs looking for a torc on your first life. Torc is ridiculously, absurdly overpowered while leveling. For me I committed to getting the torc no matter what before TRing, and pulled it on my 40th list. That torc-farming time can be spent leveling destinies, I suppose. (~35 of my 40 ADQ runs were done solo.)

EDIT2: And if at all possible, ML12, 16, 20 and 24 mabar robes would be super. They're no longer the best of the best for epic levels -- +3 insightful int spidersilk is better -- but they're still really, really good.

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I think I will TR him after I read more up on TR'ing. And what is torc & ML? Where do i get those things?

EDIT: What weapon should I use as I level? Im just starting out. Should I go with a rogue weapon or wands?

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Originally Posted by Falvicar27

Thanks again everyone and I looked at your build you have EllisDee, thanks. My other question is it worth it to TR or just go to level 25 as a 18/2 wiz/rogue?

If I do TR then I should do so at level 20 right? Not level 25?

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As someone said above, playing a caster can be a bit tricky as an introduction to the game. I've played wizards in many other D&D games but found it was a struggle for me on DDO.

You can splash Rogue 2 with almost anything else (always take the first level in Rogue, the 2nd level is mostly for Evasion if you need it). Wizard is a natural combination because of high INT but even as a character with low INT you can still be pretty handy around traps.

DDO also has a number of mechanics making it pretty forgiving if you make mistakes in levelling, so especially for your first play through go with what feels right to you and allows you to have fun.

In regards to whether you TR or play with Epic Destinies - seriously, worry about it when you get there! Have Fun, enjoy yourself... it can take weeks or months to get to level 20 and in that time you'll want to try a dozen different character builds, adventure areas, raids and loot that going either way can be advantageous and fun. Myself, I've got my first guy now to 24 and loving the epic areas and Destinies... when I get my 2nd guy closer to 20 then I'll probably TR #1 and cycle so I've always got a high level and low level guy to run around with.

There's a lot of very skilled and experienced players on these forums and reading their posts can be very daunting for a newbie - truth is the game is far from impossible at Casual and Normal levels to mostly solo (I used DDOwiki a lot to check if a level can be solo'd first so I don't waste my time). If you really struggle with an area, there's others to choose from at level... so have fun, experiment and enjoy yourself, on the normal difficulties there is no true right or wrong answer!

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Originally Posted by Falvicar27

I did state I have the 32 point build. :) Thanks for the replies all.

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Doh!!! That's what I get for posting late at nite.

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Originally Posted by Falvicar27

I think I will TR him after I read more up on TR'ing. And what is torc & ML? Where do i get those things?

EDIT: What weapon should I use as I level? Im just starting out. Should I go with a rogue weapon or wands?

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Torc comes out of the Sands expansion
Quest here
Torc !!!

ML is Minimum Level