So... What is Perma Death?

This is, I think, a pretty reasonable question. My other post has received some very different opinions that what I expected PD would be.

Obviously, to a point at least, the community dictates what PD is in DDO. By and large it seems that community has a rather rigid set of rules, which to their credit are equally and fairly administered.

The thing I don't understand about the majority of PD players is this:

1. If you wanted to game your way, with a real challenge, then why not view each death / wipe on a case by case basis?
2. Wouldn't the very players who detracted from the challenge weed themselves out (like the player who 'always' disconnected any time they died)?
3. Is there, or was there ever, such a huge active PD community that it became necessary to have rules that did not account for human factors?

I ask this to better understand the mindset of what seems to be the majority of PD players. As parvo said in another thread - he once lost connection and died right after going under water - which left that particular character dead. So the community can police itself - and while I think parvo was a bit extreme in that regard, if I lagged a little and died - well... that would count as a death. If I lost connection and drowned in the Stormreach Harbor, that would not be a death as far as I am concerned.

So I can see the reasoning behind creating the 'you die it equals a death' rule, but I can not see the reasoning behind it as currently applied by most guilds.

The way I thought it worked was - we are all a team, and we either all die, or we all 'magically' don't die if there was a bad game mechanic or what at work. Minor individual things like lag related death, etc. - we accept as bad rolls and attempt to work with the system and get our team mate back up. Straight out disconnects we work through - 'unless' they become overly problematic (yes, even for me with my **** internet), in which case either you have to take a back seat to players with better internet, or you are just going to die a lot and the problem will take care of itself in 9-18 deaths.

Anyway :rolleyes:

Some community clarity on what it is would be nice - not only for me, but also for others like me who are looking in from the outside and wondering if I can haz cheeseburger...

You can indeed haz cheezeburger.

As you see in the other thread, there is clear dissension in the community, thus the reason why there are multiple guilds. To give you an example of a couple of differences:

1. One of the PD guilds forgoes the use of prestige enhancements to increase the challenge to themselves. That is PD.

2. One of the PD guilds only uses only every OTHER shrine in a quest, starting with the 2nd. That is PD.

3. My guild, EE, for the most part we trust our guildees to police themselves in the matter of deaths/lag. As you said, one chooses to adopt a PD ruleset, we feel it is up to them to police themselves.

4. Another guild allows completely unrestricted use of the auction house, leading to have some members of said guild sit and buy/sell off the AH all day and generate millions of plat to twink their characters out. Even THAT is PD.

PD isn't a monolithic notion. People agree on few things, but we're all under the same banner, and that is fine. When someone comes in, we can just link this and let them choose for themselves. In that way, our diversity in rulesets is a strength, because PD is a more open community than people might first think.

Yeah, each PD guild (or group, some are just static groups rather than whole guilds, I suspect) has its own rules. Some don't count lag- or bug-related deaths as those can be hard to avoid regardless of player skill, being careful, etc. They also have different rules about items, twinking/trading/"looting" dead companions, etc. It's really just a matter of finding a PD guild with rules that suit you, or starting your own (kind of like you would do with a non-PD guild, TBH).

Simple answer: If you die, you delete.

More complete answer:
Any toon that can't be revived by the personal magic of party members (not shrines*) is no longer part of PD play. Lag/bugs may or may not be considered "dead" depending on the guild.
Typically the character must equip himself (sometimes with extremely limited exceptions). As noted above, this takes many interpretations.

Why do it?
The PD game is vastly different for ordinary DDO. In one thread (complaining about zergers hijacking a party, from memory) there was an argument that zerging was the default style of DDO. Expect strong teamwork and tactical play in PD. All those strict rules are partly to keep the challenge, but are often there just to enforce this style of play. Finding a group willing to play such a style is almost impossible, but pretty standard for anybody who joined a PD guild.

* I'm not sure what would happen if a guild that used shrines called themselves "PD". In other forms of D&D it is often possible (if expensive) to find an NPC to revive a dead character. A guild could justify such a play if the soulstone was recovered (recovering soulstones is often a part of PD play even if they can't be revived) possibly with a death tax (payment for the assumed revival).

One thing I'm less sure of is exiting the dungeon. Typically, PD players will retreat to the entrance (or possibly other exit) when it appears too dangerous to attempt completion. There are often rules about re-entry (typically not allowed without a reset). I can't remember hearing about any players penalized for having to leave due to RL conditions when they could recall from a presumed safe location.

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Originally Posted by Joseph

This is, I think, a pretty reasonable question. My other post has received some very different opinions that what I expected PD would be.

Some community clarity on what it is would be nice - not only for me, but also for others like me who are looking in from the outside and wondering if I can haz cheeseburger...

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PD is self-defined, so house rules abound and vary between guilds & static groups. You aren't really going to find a 'community standard' for PD.

This is exactly what I was looking for in terms of answers. It gives a more clear idea of the bigger picture and the community, which is a good thing to have :) Very helpful replies so far. Thanks to those who put in their perspectives.

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Originally Posted by Magnyr_Delorn

You can indeed haz cheezeburger.

As you see in the other thread, there is clear dissension in the community, thus the reason why there are multiple guilds. To give you an example of a couple of differences:

1. One of the PD guilds forgoes the use of prestige enhancements to increase the challenge to themselves. That is PD.

2. One of the PD guilds only uses only every OTHER shrine in a quest, starting with the 2nd. That is PD.

3. My guild, EE, for the most part we trust our guildees to police themselves in the matter of deaths/lag. As you said, one chooses to adopt a PD ruleset, we feel it is up to them to police themselves.

4. Another guild allows completely unrestricted use of the auction house, leading to have some members of said guild sit and buy/sell off the AH all day and generate millions of plat to twink their characters out. Even THAT is PD.

PD isn't a monolithic notion. People agree on few things, but we're all under the same banner, and that is fine. When someone comes in, we can just link this and let them choose for themselves. In that way, our diversity in rulesets is a strength, because PD is a more open community than people might first think.

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/signed to what Magnyr has posted here, and again his extremly good use of posting a link to a guild listing of Permadeath Guilds and their websites for ruleset research. I beg you Joseph to not be taken aback by the approach of some in the permadeath community that are not always helpful by pointing people in a good direction for them to find the perfect fit for their permadeath play experience, if you dig a little I am sure you will find a fit for your playstyle.

As a side not I posted this in your other thread about lag deaths:

Just so you know Joseph, our guild has a private review section on our forums for any disconnect/lag deaths that a player may want to contest. This review is done by several long standing members of the guild and is done on a case by case basis, whilst the review is taking place your toon must be shelved for the review. In total we have had only 3 reviews(one of which was determined as a bug death), the other two were allowed as non-deaths. There have been a few other deaths that guildies didnt contest, they were all on elite setting and involved big hitting mobs, we general have a rule of 3 options;

1) Do you think it would be impossible to be killed in the situation without lag(in this case which we have had 2 reviews, you would be determined as alive and no death)
2) Do you think the mobs could cast instant kill spells that would make you subject to death regardless of lag, some items would prevent instant death, so case by case is used to determine this judgement call by the review board)
3) And lastly would you be taking constant hard hitting damage if you were standing still in the situation (these cases have never been reviewed because our guildies would just accept them as deaths)

*** in regards to option 3 most of our guildies dont let guildies run high challenge quests alone, also because most guildies are looking for company for these type of quests(For example: Partycrashers on Elite we like to have 4 players in order to go after the optional demon)

Happy Hunting and Stay Safe!!!

The Narc

You die, you delete.

If that is not the case then don't call it permadeath. cause it ain't.

I think I explained my opinion pretty well in the other thread. Encouraging each player to individually determine if thier own character died because of "lag" or "disconnect" is not fair. That makes the process inherently subjective.

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Originally Posted by Maxallu

You die, you delete.

If that is not the case then don't call it permadeath. cause it ain't.

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/agreed

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Originally Posted by Joseph

...
Wouldn't the very players who detracted from the challenge weed themselves out (like the player who 'always' disconnected any time they died)?

...
Is there, or was there ever, such a huge active PD community that it became necessary to have rules that did not account for human factors?

...

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No. History shows there are always some players who care not about challenge but about the "accomplishment". They do this by looking for loopholes in the rules that allow for easy progression.

I don't understand your second question. The rest of your post is beating a dead horse.