D&D on DDO? Maybe this would work.

PREFACE

What type of player are you????

Heavy Role-player---The story is the focus. You might spend hours, sometimes days, refining and developing a background for your character. You will spend 50-75% of your time online in chat sessions acting out your characters lives, and actually playing the game with that character.

Computer Gamer---The Game is the focus. You spend almost all of your time doing quests or activities with progression in mind. Find the perfect combination of items, stats, etc that propel you to the top of your league.

Either end of the spectrum described above is cool. We all play games for different reasons.

What I wonder is.....can DDO be used to bring back the fun of talking to each other and (most important) CHARACTER-PLAYING the GAME.

Try this......
Create a Cleric, but allow no more than 2 stats to be below 9, and no stat above 18.
(Any of the DDO boilerplate characters will do this.)

Bypass the Kothos Storyline.
Now do a few of 1st level quests (Heyton's Rest?) a few times on Casual and maybe Normal Difficulty. No need to go outside the Village.

At no time is your character to retain more than ONE Magic Item, and keep only Cure Potions.
Each time you complete a quest, take a look at all the Magic Items you have and decide what Magic Item your character will retain, then sell EVERYTHING else that is magic. Do not retain any Magic Items other than the ONE thing you like most and any Cure Wounds Potions you may have found.

When you've gained about 200PP to represent starting money from D&D basic rules, go to the Hammer and Chain in the Harbor and buy yourself a set of Full Plate Armor!
Now you should have at least 1 Sword, Mace, Shield and a Full Plate Armor that everyone who played PnP bought when they started.

While you are doing any Quest.....
Do not run unless in Combat. Move in Sneak (which I will call Creep)
Use only Cure Wounds Potions. Don’t use any other type of Potion.
Do not use any Shrine.
If you run low on Hit Points.....heal yourself if you have SP or a Heal Potion, OR retreat to the entrance and exit, wait to regain your points and re-enter.
If you can not get away and end up dying...Do NOT return to the same Quest the same night. Choose another.
(Remember getting the snot beat outta you in PnP? The DM had you return to town to heal and then return? Think of that and come back to the failed Quest another day.)


BASIC GUIDELINES
We all know Magic is necessary in DDO, but we also know Magic is WAY too abundant!


Here is a simple guideline for Magic Use....

CHARACTER LEVELS 1-3
(This guideline is ONLY for character levels 1-3)

Your character can own 1 Magic Item per level.
With each level gained, you can keep/use a +1 item. (at 1st level you can keep a +1 item, at 2nd you can exchange it for a +2 item you may have found or add another +1 item you have found)
NOTE: MASTERWORK ITEMS are NOT Magic, so are not restricted.

Enjoy the challenge! You're playing a decent version of PnP D&D. (IMHO)
Now imagine playing alongside a Fighter, Wizard and a Thief! All with voice-chat.
Now characters will depend on each other and you will not be playing a “game“, you'll be character-playing a game.

I realize there may be those who disagree with this concept, but it's my opinion it can be done. Hopefully, not everyone will disagree.

THAC0 FELLOWSHIP
On Wednesdays at 7pm EST, a Character called "Tukcc" will be in-game, getting a 6-person group together to attempt an appropriate adventure in this style.

All must be the same level, no Magic Items beyond the limit allowed and voice chat active. (The first time you play with "Voice" you'll understand)




Below is the THACO FELLOWSHIP CHARTER

THACO Fellowship Charter

The THACO Fellowship is a Guild that tries to recreate the feel of a Classic D&D Pen and Paper Adventure/Campaign generally within the confines of the 2nd Edition Rules.
OK, realistically, there are many differences between PnP and DDO. Suffice it to say we are using what we can to accomplish the task.

Our Mission is to have as much fun playing as we might have in the PnP days.
Imagine sitting around a table with Pizza and beverage of choice and laughing, rolling dice and even more laughing.

Here’s how we think it can be done………
PERMA-DEATH:
We are NOT Perma-Death. While I can see the point, it is not in our best interests.

DEATH:
If a player dies in a Module (Quest), it only means that player is unable to participate in the remainder of that night’s adventure UNLESS a method of resurrection is available.
As a rule, when a Guild character dies, the decision to retreat and exit is mandatory, UNLESS the party can not get back to the entrance.
If this is the case, you must “DO or DIE”. Make your way out without recalling.
Recalling is only allowed if everyone in the party is dead.

It has been expressed that it would be Suicide for a group of underequiped characters to attempt DDO standards, but how would you know what awaits you until you actually try?
If a party suffers an Epic Fail in a Quest, that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Since we’re not Perma-Death, we can try again on another night.
Do you REALLY want to play a game where you have such a small chance of failing?

We will ENCOURAGE playing a Quest without prior experience with it. Surprise is a good thing. It allows some great game play situations and we’re trying to think as much as play. I realize most players have already seen most of the quests, but hopefully they’ll still be fun.

QUEST LEVEL:
In order to equalize the players to their monsters, we will be doing Quests TWO levels below the level of the Party, BUT on Elite Difficulty.
That way, the Parties CR will more closely match that of the individual Encounters, AND the Quest will take on more of the traits we are looking for in an adventure….more HP for Monsters, roughly equal DC for Traps, more dangerous trap damage.
Quests will require regarding Encounters separately, the way the DMG intended.
(Zerging in this concept, is a sure way to die.)

MAGIC ITEMS:
…….are to be restricted as much as possible.
Especially at low levels, they are just not needed with the exception of a VERY few instances.
MAGIC FACTORS:
What I describe as “Magic Factors” is the “potential” number that appears in the top right corner of an item description pop up.
At the time of this writing, we are limiting the number of magic factors a character is allowed on his body AND in his pack at 1 per level.
Some Magic Items will not have a potential number. In this case, they are treated as if they were “+1”.
You will find SOME of those items will seem powerful in comparison to the +1 we assign to them. These items can be referred to as “Divine Gifts”. TREASURE THEM!

When a Guild Adventure starts, each character must abide by the Guild limit. If we are starting a Quest and the Party is 5th Level, each character can have no more than 5 Factors (some of us call then “slots”) Equipped, to include things in their backpack.
NOTE: During an adventure, an Magic Item found can be used immediately.

EXCEPTIONS:
There are a few things we have determined are “necessary” for successful adventuring, therefore are not included in Magic restrictions.

1. Kothos “Sets”…… Protectors, Troubleshooters, etc. Available to all Classes.
2. Rogues are allowed to purchase a DDO Store Hood that grants +5 to Search and Spot to compensate for the excess Trap DC’s DDO is using. Otherwise, a CRAFTED item administratively obtained from any source is allowable to give Spot and/or Search any Bonus.
3. Spellcasters are allowed to retain their Apprentice Robe without restriction.
4. Any Character is allowed use of a Fortification Item without a restriction, as long as it’s the only effect on the item.
Otherwise, a CRAFTED item administratively obtained from any source is allowable to provide Fortification.


MAGIC WANDS:
Eternal Wands will not be allowed.
Wands, regardless of level or charges, are to be counted at a Magic item with a Potential number of +1. If you want to carry 3 Wands, that equals 3 Factors.
Wands CAN be purchased by Vendors.
(Their expendability will compensate for their power )
Scrolls can only be found, not purchased, but carry NO Factors.
Scrolls can be inscribed as needed, or stored (without restriction) in a backpack.
Since we can only have FOUND Scrolls and they are not too plentiful, there should be no limit as to amount the caster can have.


THIS, we feel, is a key to D&D playing.

CHARACTER SHEETS:
Altering the character sheet should be kept to a minimum, if at all.
Saying that, exceptions are always possible for a very good reason.
With all the other characters you're able to play with outside the Guild, make THIS one unique. Make your choices and resign yourself to live with the results. It applies to all aspects of creation. Let the dice fall where they may.
I think you'll like it more.

COMMENTS FROM QUESTIONS:

Yes, we are not Permadeath. We are not completionists either.
We play as if sitting around a table in a campaign as close to old skool style as we can. If a Party enters a Dungeon, there is no guarantee they will get out again. That's the way the game is played. OUR difference is if you die, you get to come back again and try again.
Characters of our campaign will never know how long it will take to reach any specific level of achievement, or even IF they will reach it at all, but it is expected that each game night there will be from 1 to 3 Quests.
(Up thru 4th Level, it has taken an average of 10-12 game nights to gain a level)

GETTING STARTED:
This Guild started with 1st level characters and used Korthos quests to grind to the starting point of 4th level. Afterward, it was realized that we could have used the Veteran Status to start at 4th Level.
In Character Creation, standard build packages should be chosen. If custom build is used, no more than 2 stats may be below 9.
It is SUGGESTED that a New Player Start as Level 1 and adventure in Korthos until they reach Level 4 no matter how many times each Quest may be required to play.
They SHOULD BYPASS the Storyline in order to visit the “Hammer and Chain” whenever possible for better supplies.

When your character reaches Level 4, leave Korthos and contact “Tukcc” or any Guild member.


IN GAME ITEMS:
DDO is designed to be “Magic Rich”. Our Guild will ignore as much as possible in order to keep the spirit of Basic D&D.
We will NOT use Shrines…Period.
We will not use potions other than Cure Light Wounds, UNLESS it’s use is critical to the mission. (will be determined on a case by case basis)
Each character is allowed to purchase no more than 50 Cure Light Wounds Potions to be used as that character’s “First Aid Kit”.
We will ignore all breakables UNLESS we have to obtain something critical to the Quest.
No use of the DDO Store Items EXCEPT for a reason that is unanimously approved of by the Guild.
No Items purchased from the Auction House, but selling at the Auction house is allowed since it benefit’s the characters consumable supplies.


All these restrictions add up to one thing……
An adventure that pit’s the Characters ABILITIES (Not Gear) against that of the Monsters.
An adventure where players DEPEND on each other and a characters death could have dire consequences.
Likewise, a characters death does not mean the player must start over. It means he/she loses out on the remainder of that night’s spoils.

I am going to suggest (as some of you have already hinted) that we abandon Quivers and any "Bag". There is PLENTY of room in a pack for what we need, quest to quest. Plus it will give us something "more" to think about in a support theme. We'll actually have to dig thru our pack every so often and throw some of the "junk" out to make room for something valuable.

MULTI-CLASSING:
My point of this play style was to have the progression as close to D&D as DDO would allow.
Since we can't divide XP between classes, the next best thing is to raise classes alternately, except allow a (2) level difference just to have some leeway.

2nd Edition split the XP evenly. Without racial factors, class level separation wouldn't occur until higher overall level because of differing xp requirements per class.

3rd Edition allowed selective multi-class leveling, but penalized class separations of more than 1.

As we already have enough "Class Crafting" going on in DDO, I think a 2 level max separation would be appropriate.

Veteran Status is OK. I'd hate to grind to 7th level to join the group!
Class restrictions include Artificer, Warforged and Favored Souls.
Race restrictions include Drow and Half-Orc due to Racial relations from the rulebook.
(Half-Elf is acceptable.)
Dwarven is acceptable, but I'd expect the player to exhibit sarcasm and criticism toward Elvish members and vice-versa whenever possible to maintain some color.

Wish Items: (ie, TOMES and their like will not be used)
Reasoning……
Looking at DMG Treasure Tables (2nd and 3rd Editions), Tomes (or Manuals) are referred to as "Wondrous Magic Items" and come up VERY rarely.

+1's Tomes are called "Medium Wondrous" and higher are "Major Wondrous".
Character Levels 1-5 could get only Minor "Wondrous" Items and as such would never get any type of Tome.
Character Levels 6 and Higher could get Medium "Wondrous" and Character Levels 10 and Higher could get Major "Wondrous".
Further, at 10th level, “Major items” only had 1% chance to be received and 20th Level only had 34% chance.
(do not quote me on these figures, it's a very general comparison)
Bottom line…..Tomes are VERY, VERY rare and we do not use them without a very good reason.

This is my suggestion on Tomes....
A character can benefit from ONLY 1 tome in their lifetime.
It must be a FOUND Tome and must be found in a GROUP adventure and witnessed by all.
Player can decline it's use, but must give it to an assigned party member to be SOLD.
If declined, it will be treated as if player never received it, allowing them to find another.


EXCEPTION concerning WISHES:
Dragonshards that are found in an adventure CAN be used to alter Feats via the Mind flayer “Fred”. We will refer to this as a “Limited Wish” as it should be a VERY rare event. This “Wish” can be stored for later use, and even given to another character.




Finally.....
The THAC0 COMMANDMENTS.......
#1...Thou shalt not Shrine.
#2...Thou shalt not take advantage of the game. (No Twinking)
#3...Thou shalt not carry more than 1 Magic Item/Factor pre level.
#4...Thou shall ONLY retain items FOUND in adventures.
#5...Thou shalt not use potions other than Cure Light Wounds. (VERY strict exception to be reviewed as needed)
#6...Thou SHALL be allowed to use Wands and Scrolls. Wands may be purchased, Scrolls must be found.
#7...Thou shall ONLY use Auction House for selling, not Buying.
#8...Thou shalt not use ANYTHING from anyone outside of Guild. Own account included. (No Twinking)
#9...Thou SHALL be able to use Merchants for Non-Magic Items (And Magic Wands) as necessary to Class Function.
#10..Thou shalt maintain and respect the sanctity of your character sheet. (No character alterations without PRIOR approval from Guild)
#11..Thou shalt not receive/use "Wish" items that are not FOUND. (Tomes, etc)
#12 No ZERGING
#13 Standard mode of movement is in "SNEAK" mode, barring combat, retreats, and misc actions forbidden by sneak.
#14 A character that dies in a quest and cannot be revived or raised by party abilities REQUIRE the Party to try and escape. If returning to the entrance is not possible, the party must attempt to complete the quest or die. Recall ONLY if ALL are dead.
#15 Thou shalt use voice chat, and talk freely in-or-out of character as you desire (like table-top PnP)

Ok, first trial went well enough.
Played Butchers Path at Normal Difficulty with a 1st Level fighter and a Paladin who volunteered off the street.

No Magic, No Potions and No Shrines.

Very first encounter we got clobbered down to about 50% hit points. Retreated back to the surface to regain our strength. We took turns holding the instance open while the other rested outside.

Continuing, we encountered Oozes. The Paladin tended to charge a lot and soon lost his sword to the Oozes acid. Good thing he was carrying a spare. Lost about 25% HP so we continued.

Next Encounter we did rather well and wiped out around a dozen with minimal injuries.

Forth encounter we were overrun by a large group with more Shamans than normal. I was subdued to unconciousness, but not killed. The Paladin was able to win the battle so he guarded me till I came around. After regaining my senses, I returned to the surface to recouperate.

Quickly, I realized the dire need for a cleric when adventuring like this. Old D&D concepts re-emerging!
I returned to the adventure with a 1st level Cleric Hireling with us.
The remainder of the adventure went well enough and we were able to finish without any more drama.

The removal of Healing Potions and Shrines gives prestige back to the Cleric Class! this is good.
The parring down of Magic Items (especially Weapons and Armor) makes us more humble again. The way it was supposed to be.

Next Wednesday I'll do another. Maybe if this catches on I'll get the 4 person team I want to try with.

Can't emphasize enough...No Magic, No Potions and No Shrines.

I would like to quote something that I think pertains to Dungeons and Dragons, the Game.
It's something I found on the last page of the AD&D Players Handbook (Before the Appendixes)....dated 1978 and is something to consider when comparing DDO.

"Superior play makes the game more enjoyable for all participants. It allows more actual playing time. It makes play more interesting."

"Successful play means long-lived characters, characters who will steadily, if not rapidly, gain levels. You will find that such characters become like old friends, they become almost real. Characters with stories related about their exploits--be they cleverly wrought gains, or narrow escapes--bring a sense of pride and accomplishment to their players, and each new success adds to the luster and fame thus engendered."

"Some characters will meet their doom, some will eventually retire in favor of a new character of a different class and/or alignment, but playing well is a reward unto itself, and old characters are often remembered with fondness and pride as well."

"If you believe that Advanced Dungeons and Dragons is a game worth playing, you will certainly find it doubly so if you play well."


It's not how fast you can reach top, it's "play well".

Walk the Butchers Path. Level 2 Dungeon Crawl.

Ok, this Quest CAN be done Solo. Without Magic, without potions and without using Shrines.

Unfortunately, without Healing, it requires quite a few re-entries. Not to mention some skill in how to Dungeon Crawl.
Zergers....haven't a chance.

Next Wednesday, a Human Cleric named Tukcc will be raising a party to attempt the Butchers Path.
He's looking for no more than 3 other characters....Level 2 only.
No potions and only 1 Magic Item (+1 or non-determined only)
There will be no Shrine usage.
Will be waiting in the beginning of the Quest at 8PM EST.

Maybe what would help is some comments on just what would constitute D&D style play here in DDO?

"Bring you own healing", "Be self-sufficient", "Know where you're going" are definetely NOT D&D!
They are the call to arms for Power Players and End-Content Players.
Don't get me wrong, that's fine. There are LOTS of Guilds and LOTS of players who are making Turbine the Money they need, and that's great. It means Turbine should not lose interest in maintaining DDO.

When I was playing D&D, a group would decide to explore an underground complex of some kind.
They would gather equipment and supplies that they thought they would need and go do what needed to be done.
They had no idea what was in there nor exactly what they would need in the way of supplies.
There were two things that would signal a return to the surface. The belief that they had completed their mission, or a shortfall in supplies and/or injuries that could not be delt with down there.
In the latter case, a return to town was needed to rest/heal and rethink their strategy.

It is my belief that DDO is like a D&D candystore. Once you create your character, you can have as much of whatever you want in the way of magic items and equipment. You are not forced to accept rewards determined by fate. (ie, random treasure) (We all know DDO random treasure is magic rich!)

Can anyone contribute something they believe playing DDO "D&D style" would include?

Wednesday Night Playtest went pretty well......

A Fighter and a Cleric explored the Butchers Path for AN HOUR AND A HALF!
Talking and coordinating the whole way. 180 degrees different than regular DDO.
Some encounters were easy, some not so much. Knocked unconcious twice.
Cleric expended spell points about half way in. That's when we discovered the minimum 12 rule.
That made us more cautious and relieved at the same time knowing you never COMPLETELY run out of spell points.

I ran out of arrows. We got used to regrouping after encounters to "rest". Found out it's not good to Battle Heal.
Best to retreat, regroup, heal and then continue.

ALMOST made it to the end til we encountered a Trog Caster 3 times our level.
Needless to say, we didn't last long.
As is the D&D way, re-entry after a death is not allowed. We would have been laid up in bed for weeks in D&D!

All in all, a great D&D gaming night! We could have used a Thief (I mean Rogue! Geesh!) and a Wizard/Sorc would have added variety.

Maybe when we attempt the Butchers Path again next week, there MIGHT be others who would like to try the style.

As a reminder, all you need is a 2nd level character (rolled however DDO lets you), only 1 Magic Item, and the understanding that we will not be using the Shrines and Death means recall to the Inn to wait for the others to return.
Voice chat is a definate advantage, but the ability just to hear the others that ARE speaking is a must.

The Grouping Ad will state "D&D style Playtest" for Butchers Path at 2nd Level Max.
Now I'm looking forward to next week!

Why don't we use Shrines?
(An examination)

Shrines are a staple in DDO. They are absolutely neccessary for Difficulty Levels Hard and Elite, and I would guess for any Raid or Epic Content. (I say guess because I have never participated in a Raid or Epic Content and don't expect to do so)

A Shrine instantly restores all of ones Hit Points, Spell points and is generally a restoration cure for everything else.
It also allows a Caster to re-choose what spells are available.

Soooooo.........You can explore a dungeon without concern for injury because you can always "recharge" if things get tough, right?

If I remember right, things getting "tough" was part of the fun when playing D&D. Nothing runs a chill down your spine like realizing "oh Damn! I'm about to die! "
In D&D hardcore, dying meant giving up your character and starting over. Well, I can't really see that.
Let's just say if you die, you're out of the adventure and have to wait at the Inn for their return to see what you've missed.

So what's this got to do with Shrines?
In D&D, without using healing spells or healing potions, you had to use rest to heal yourself and also rest was needed to regain your spellcasting abilities.

In the case of hit points, you gained 1 point per day for the first week, and that plus your CON bonus for each week afterwards, up to a full month!
Spells were re-memorized after from 4 to 12 hours of sleep.

Shrines are too much of a shortcut in my oppinion.

(My Oppinion)
Need to heal? Not have a Cleric? Do what we did way back when. Return to town for proper rest. You won't make it back within the 5 minute instance limit, but that simulates coming back when you're properly healed.
Need Spell Points? Again, back to town.
A small exception would be to stand outside the quest to heal. You get the re-entry penalty, but at least you get back in. If you need to do this often, well, better go get you a Cleric!

Have you died? Suck it up. Sit out the remainder of the adventure and buy the first round for the rest of the group when they return!

Everybody Died? You really screwed the pooch on that one! Better have a second pint and figure out what you did wrong!

That's my take on Shrines. Oh, if it weren't for the fact that healing potions are WAY too abundant, I'd say use them, but with healing potions, you don't need Shrines OR Clerics!

3 more days to Wednesday!
I think myself and one other person is on deck. Anybody else care to join?
Level 2 only please. Not fair to others if your character is higher.
Game time 8PM EST Thelanis Server
Look for Thraisias.

NOT doing Butchers Path this week. There are a few other Quests in the Harbor that are pretty good.

Here is an example of the differences in attitude around DDO. The oppinion below seems to be from a player that plays DDO, and has never played D&D.
DDO has something for everybody. You just have to decide what does and does not belong in YOU'RE definition.

--Pasted from another thread--

"Overall - if you know what you are doing and do it well your buffs costs few SP and those that do easily last from shrine to shrine. Thus you have more SP to kill mobs and because you know how much fighting is needed before you can shrine again your casters can optimize SP us so they are bone dry when arriving at the next shrine. Also, you know which spells to use against which mobs making yourself much more efficient.

Compare to a newer group. Lack of ship/gear means more buffing + lack of gear means less SP to begin with. Lack of knowledge/gear/skill means more deaths - which cost SP to rez, rebuff and maybe buffs run costing even more SP. Additionally, the location of shrines isnt known and a shrine may even be missed entirely meaning SP may run out if not conservative enough or that SP is conserved too much making for slower progress.

What really makes the above important is that SP does not regen over time as is the case in many other games - so the newer player cannot blow their load on every fight and then sit to regen simply going slower than the vet player.

Mind, I am not at al complaining - in fact I am mostly having fun - I just like to point out that the DDO model makes for a huge difference in performance between new and vet. Good thing there is normal difficulty when us new ones want to feel like kings of the hill - though Elite is more fun for the challange."

You might enjoy running a few quests with either The Core on Khyber or MV on Argo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by intruder1

Here is an example of the differences in attitude around DDO. The oppinion below seems to be from a player that plays DDO, and has never played D&D.
DDO has something for everybody. You just have to decide what does and does not belong in YOU'RE definition.

--Pasted from another thread--

"Overall - if you know what you are doing and do it well your buffs costs few SP and those that do easily last from shrine to shrine. Thus you have more SP to kill mobs and because you know how much fighting is needed before you can shrine again your casters can optimize SP us so they are bone dry when arriving at the next shrine. Also, you know which spells to use against which mobs making yourself much more efficient.

Compare to a newer group. Lack of ship/gear means more buffing + lack of gear means less SP to begin with. Lack of knowledge/gear/skill means more deaths - which cost SP to rez, rebuff and maybe buffs run costing even more SP. Additionally, the location of shrines isnt known and a shrine may even be missed entirely meaning SP may run out if not conservative enough or that SP is conserved too much making for slower progress.

What really makes the above important is that SP does not regen over time as is the case in many other games - so the newer player cannot blow their load on every fight and then sit to regen simply going slower than the vet player.

Mind, I am not at al complaining - in fact I am mostly having fun - I just like to point out that the DDO model makes for a huge difference in performance between new and vet. Good thing there is normal difficulty when us new ones want to feel like kings of the hill - though Elite is more fun for the challange."

---

I remember responding this post by highlighting the difference in mob power between games that allow for mana regen and DDO which does not.

In EQ or WOW, one trash mob can wipe the entire party if the formula isnt observed - its hitting the tank while the DPS hits it from behind or from afar, while the healer heals. Mobs are basically killed one at a time while most everything else is crowd controlled.

In DDO, a mage can kill scads of mobs with a spell or two, but they dont regen mana over time on their own. The mob power here is hilariously low compared to most games that have mana regen. No one would ever make it through a WOW or EQ dungeon without mana regen. They dont use shrines. If youre out of resources, you just wait out of combat for them to return.

In DDO a level 17 wizard sees a CR 22 trash mob, casts energy drain and FOD, killing it.

In EQ, being level 17 and examining a level 22 mob would yield the message "what would you like your tombstone to say?" - meaning if you attack this mob, it WILL kill your group outright. You need a few people or even a full group to fight even level mobs in games that allow for mana regen.

EQ/WOW - Each encounter is balanced on using significant resources to kill - then regen afterthe fight.

DDO - Each encounter is balanced on minimum resource usage per encounter - no regen, but will make it to shrines from time to time.

And dont even get me started on unlimited mana potions. :p

No matter what game you play, it's the people you play with that count.

Last night's dungeon crawls were a hoot!
Four 1st Level characters (Monk, 2 Thieves and a Cleric) Explored Heytons Crypt twice, The Warehouse and The Cannith Crystal.
Not all characters played in all adventures, but everyone had a great time!
1 Character actually lost connection and did not return. He was from the mid-west and we suspect the storm had something to do with it.

A lot of laughing and joking about in voice-chat. The Korthos modules didn't endanger us overly too much so no one died.
As long as there is a cleric in the party, the Shrines were not missed and Magic was not an issue.

Afterwards, I (as a Dwarven Fighter) joined up with a Half-Orc Cleric and did the Missing Pack Module in the Harbor.
The tension between the Dwarf and the Orc was comical!

All in all, it was a good night of gaming.

Looking forward to next week.

NOTE: If you think this might be something you'd be interested in, read down this thread from the top.

The Core HC Permadeath Guild is three years old this March. We have been running without shrines since our day 1. It WILL add more excitement and thrilling boss fights in your quests. Questing was much more difficult in the days before radiant servants and the other prestige classes that followed. I can remember being unable to complete Stormcleave Outpost several times with a party of level 11's (four of us) because we ran out of mana and knew we wouldn't be able to complete.

The game is easier than ever before. But taking away shrines does help. Another easy to implement step would be to forbid ALL prestige classes. And we have a static that is running with those rules. In The Core, we have completed some level 14 quests on elite, and level 16's on hard, and a few level 17-19 quests on normal. We haven't run up against anything yet that feels impossible. But time will tell.

To me, the game becomes truly enjoyable when you get a group of like-minded people together to customize DDO by self-imposing restrictions. Form a guild, roll up a character, and adventure for your life.

Good luck to you!

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I agree self-imposed restrictions is the way to go.
I am old AD&D fan and to be quite honest, don't see tackling CR15+ Modules any time soon.

While in the 1st and 2nd Editions, it took just 2000xp to reach 2nd level, in DDO it takes 5000.
Obviously, they knew, given the amount of Magic Items that would be dropped on characters, they would have to increase the goals for progression.
Also, the way DDO is set up was to attract a different type of player. One that wanted all that Magic and didn't want to wait. Not to mention that Turbine "conveniently" offers a lot of those things for purchase.

I still believe that the path to D&D playing is by.......
USE Voice-Chat! There is really no substitute for talking to each other. The resulting laughter, cursing and such is what makes roleplaying fun!
If you can't or prefer not to use a mic, at least listen.....it IS a blast!

RELY on your Cleric! If you don't have one, get one. No Shrines!

DON'T be obsessed with completing a Quest. If you die and a Cleric is not capable, suck it up and rest at the Tavern. I'm sure the tales will be quite exciting when the party returns.

IF you don't have a Cleric and take a beating, take the re-entry penalty and stand outside the Quest to rest and re-enter. If you have to do this more than twice, rethink your capabilities.

DON'T use potions. They are a DDO crutch and just detract from your ability to dungeon crawl. THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO THIS! As a rule of thumb, if you DO allow potions, restrict it to those you find INSIDE the Quest.
Also, dispose of any potion you obtain at the completion of each Quest.

LIMIT Magic Items Owned. While there doesn't seem to be any quidelines in any rulebook, I think 1 Magic Item PER LEVEL should be sufficient. By 7th Level, +2 Armor, +2 Weapon, a Magic Belt and 2 Magic Rings (all +1) should not be considered extreme.
You have more than 10 slots to equip things. Only a WOW player would think they ALL have to have something in them!

As I have said before, I will post for a PUG along these lines every Wednesday night from 6PM EST onward. Those who I have played with previously will be welcomed with pleasure and have preference.
While the characters I will be using vary, the Grouping Ad will always start with "D&D in DDO!"

So basically are you saying just show up on wed 8pm est?

Yeah, basically just show up. If you give me a character name ahead of time, I can look for you.

Usually, I'll get online somewhere between 6 and 7PM to do 1st level modules on Korthos and chat til 8.
Then from 8 to 9:30-10 to do the 2nd Level Modules in the Harbor.
(At least that's the plan)

As soon as the party reaches 6 characters, or the party gets underway, I'll shut the ad down.

Being retired and no kids left at home, I enjoy lurking about on Thelanis whenever I get the time.
This usually includes (in addition to Weds), Mon, Tues and Thurs after 6pm EST.

On those days my characters are:
Ezeikiel (HumWiz5)
Thelnil (ElfMnk1)
Thraisias (HumFtr2)
Shelani (HumFtr1)
Tukcc (ElfClr2)
Theoline (DwfFtr2)

Every Weds night I'll be in Korthos around 6pm EST to run 1st Level Modules Heytons Crypt, The Warehouse and/or The Cannith Crystal for anyone who is curious about this style of play.

Around 8pm EST, I'll be in the Harbor to run 2nd Level Modules The Butchers Path, Missing Backpack, and/or Kobalds New Ringleader for new and returning characters.

From there on I suspect gaming will continue with a core of characters that likes this style of gameplay.

Monday, Tuesday and Thursday are "lurking" days when I try to be in game to study different things and talk to whoever would want to chat. Usually between 6-9pm EST.

Not that I really want to use a guild, but for identification purposes, I have created the guild "THACO FELLOWSHIP" for nostalgic reasons.

Interesting discovery today.

If you are an Elven Cleric, AND you become a disciple of the Undying Court, upon reaching 6th Level you will be able to cast True Resurrection on other Elves. Also you can cast Raise Dead on any other character.

The implications of this for a D&D campaign are great. This cleric can rease dead 3 levels earlier than any other race. That's a HUGE advance for characters that gain a level maybe only every 3-6 months! A group of D&D adventureres of which this character is a part of would not need to return to town if one of them should be killed!

This reafirms to me that D&D in DDO is not only possible, but there are "things" turbine has included to the game that will make it very possible.

Remember.....No Shrines, No Running and restrict the Magic.

Using the Character Generator Program that is out there, it was easy to see a profile of characters that didn't focus on Constitution based HP bonuses, without Tomes, without HP based feats and without fortification bonuses.

On average, at 9th Level, an Elven Cleric starting with average stats (except a 15 in Prime) would have 19 INT, 15 DEX and 10 CON reflecting racial differences in DEX and CON.
He would have 90 HP and 470 SP.
He would strike 3 times per round and have saving throws from 6 to 10.

At 20th Level, this Cleric would have 12 STR, 16 DEX, 10 CON, 12 INT, 23 WIS and 14 CHA.
He would have 180 HP and 1460 SP.
He would strike 5 times per round (all having 100% chance to hit) and saving throws from 10 to 18.

Conversely, a Human Wizard at 9th Level would be average in all stats except INT, which would be 19.
He would have 65 HP and 550 SP.
He would strike 2 times per round with little advantages and saving throws between 6 and 8.


This does not seem to me very different than a character developed by the D&D ruleset. The difference would be what type of Modules they would adventure in. When selecting Quests in DDO, care should be taken to make sure the quest supports the D&D style of adventuring.

Has anybody else researched anything like this?