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Thrudh
11-30-2009, 12:01 PM
For some reason, I always thought there was just one silver flame potion that healed for 100 points, similar in power to a heal scroll...

I recently discovered that you can buy a more powerful version that heals for 250 points...

No one thinks this is overpowered at all? With basic healing amp items/enhancements, this gets pretty close to 400 hps healed in one potion...

Why do so many builds stress UMD and no-fail heal scrolls, when you can get 400 hps back in one shot?

Sure, you have to deal with -10 to all stats, but that's no big deal anymore... It's easier than ever to get all your stats above 11, with +2 tomes sold in the store, with multiple item slots to fit in a +6 stat, and 34 and 36 point builds...

It takes some real work to get a build to the point to use heal scrolls, and you have the chance of being interrupted (and you have swap out a weapon to use the scroll). These potions seem extremely powerful and require only some favor grinding...

Kale_Hagan
11-30-2009, 12:12 PM
Yeah, but it's miserably unhappy favor grinding. I have been playing for three years and have yet to have a single toon get this favor. It's not too unbalancing.

Thrudh
11-30-2009, 12:17 PM
Yeah I don't have any characters with that much Silver Flame favor, but I might have to grind it out on my new barbarian now...

Letrii
11-30-2009, 12:20 PM
-10 to stats?

Pizzasoup
11-30-2009, 12:24 PM
That -10 to stats sounds debilitating, though. :\

Kintro
11-30-2009, 12:25 PM
Without Elite openers for Bloody and Shadow Crypts it's a real pain. You also need to run the orchard quests enough to get your complete sigil to be able to get to 400.

I don't think they're too powerful after all that and the -10!

Thrudh
11-30-2009, 12:26 PM
-10 to stats?

-10 to stats for 30 seconds, and a 50% movement debuff...

But it's a potion, 2.5 better than a heal scroll, and requires zero build sacrifices to use.

My non-WF wizard is going to have to grind out this favor too... So INT goes down by 10 temporarily... Firewalls still burn just as hot...

That seems to be a crazy good item for certain classes... I'm just really surprised I don't see it mentioned in the powergamer builds at all...

Thrudh
11-30-2009, 12:26 PM
Without Elite openers for Bloody, Shadow and Cursed Crypts it's a real pain. You also need to run the orchard quests enough to get all your complete sigil to be able to get the 400.

I don't think they're too powerful after all that and the -10!

So the favor grind is the real deterrant, eh? Still, that's temporaray... Once it's done, it's done - well, unless you TR :eek:

Kintro
11-30-2009, 12:33 PM
So the favor grind is the real deterrant, eh? Still, that's temporaray... Once it's done, it's done - well, unless you TR :eek:

The real challenge is convincing other people to run Elite Tomb of the Tormented with you!

Mav145
11-30-2009, 12:34 PM
I am going to grind it out on my barb and my fighter. Plus, one is WF so I need to be there for the DoD as well.

Shade
11-30-2009, 12:37 PM
It takes some real work to get a build to the point to use heal scrolls, and you have the chance of being interrupted (and you have swap out a weapon to use the scroll). These potions seem extremely powerful and require only some favor grinding...

This is where your wrong. "only some favor grinding" is very far off

Getting a char that can heal scroll is a joke compared to one that can manage to make use of these potions.

The favor required is very extreme. You need basicly every single silver flame quest on elite. Then you also need one that can manage the penalties. It's by far the hardest favor reward to attain in the game.

-10 to stats is more then you think.. It's:
-100 hitpoints for everyone - instantly, a low hp char trying to make sure of them will more likely get himself killed
-5 Ac
-5 to all saves
-5 or more to damage
-5 to hit
-5 to allot of skills
-50% movement speed
-disables casting for many builds like paladins, fvs or anyone which just barely enough of there casting stat

Beyond that, they have a high cost, and only stack to 10.
They are balanced well enough. Try them out at least before you make judgements.

Siro
11-30-2009, 12:37 PM
The real challenge is convincing other people to run Elite Tomb of the Tormented with you!

I actually like that one. On the Hard and Elite difficulties, the rat maze is easier because you can tame the carrion eaters and have them do the pressure plates.

Turial
11-30-2009, 12:39 PM
...
Beyond that, they have a high cost, and only stack to 10.
They are balanced well enough. Try them out at least before you make judgements.

Still one of the best healing pots in the game if you can manage the downsides.

Mudcnd
11-30-2009, 12:53 PM
Too powerful really ??? Considering you can buy a self rez cookie in the ddo store in a quest , when your already dead , lol i dont think anything is too powerful.

Thrudh
11-30-2009, 12:59 PM
Too powerful really ??? Considering you can buy a self rez cookie in the ddo store in a quest , when your already dead , lol i dont think anything is too powerful.

Heh, point taken.

Quikster
11-30-2009, 01:08 PM
Im inclined to disagree. The favor grind is severe. Much harder then getting any of the other high level favor rewards, mainly due to difficulty in finding a group to do em. Sure you can start your own groups, but these are some of the least run quests in the game.

-10 to stats is huge, especially to min/max builds which leave at least one stat dumped, possibly 2. Healing up just to be helpless again is lame.

They are not cheap either. Nor do they stack to 100, I think the limit is 10.


Edit :: Oooops just saw Shades post :D

sirgog
11-30-2009, 01:13 PM
It's significantly more difficult to attain than 1750 favor, which has a significantly bigger effect, IMO.

Kalari
11-30-2009, 01:15 PM
The real challenge is convincing other people to run Elite Tomb of the Tormented with you!

Booze works lol thats how I was convinced to go three times now though now that I have two with the SF favor (that I dont use since ones a wizzy that would completely be wrecked by -10 to her stats and the other can heal herself yeah) I think those who use them properly can benefit from the pots and dont see them as over powered because not many people can boast to having 400 sf favor. A lot of players hate those quests with good reason. I lucked out I guess I can say and ran them with laid back players and played drinking games threw them it really helps those quests even the swimming one on elite go by better :)

Bunker
11-30-2009, 01:20 PM
I see everyone commenting on the -10 stats and the "grinding" of favor.

Isn't running a shroud 10-20 times a week grinding? When you are leveling up a character, if you do th Silverflame favored quests at or around your current level, there is a TON of xp to be given. No Bloodycrypt, Shadowcrypt or Cursecrpt series takes very much time.

As for the -10 stats. If Healing Amp can make the 250 pots heal for close or over 400, that is awesome. You all look at the -10 stats like it stays with you. Just a reminder, it is temporary. Using 1 potion in between fights is far better then a stack of cure serious potions. Even In battle, it is ok if you need to chug 1 if it will save your arse.

I think the few minor negatives to using these potions are more then fine. They are great for almost any class, and I suggest everyone uses them. Like Tony T. "There Greeeeaaatt!"

Kalari
11-30-2009, 01:27 PM
I see everyone commenting on the -10 stats and the "grinding" of favor.

Isn't running a shroud 10-20 times a week grinding? When you are leveling up a character, if you do th Silverflame favored quests at or around your current level, there is a TON of xp to be given. No Bloodycrypt, Shadowcrypt or Cursecrpt series takes very much time.

As for the -10 stats. If Healing Amp can make the 250 pots heal for close or over 400, that is awesome. You all look at the -10 stats like it stays with you. Just a reminder, it is temporary. Using 1 potion in between fights is far better then a stack of cure serious potions. Even In battle, it is ok if you need to chug 1 if it will save your arse.

I think the few minor negatives to using these potions are more then fine. They are great for almost any class, and I suggest everyone uses them. Like Tony T. "There Greeeeaaatt!"

Or they you know can make characters that can heal in other ways. I wasnt knocking the pots I just know they dont benefit the builds I have and would be more of a hinderance then a help..

Also the whole grinding the shroud thing comes up everytime people talk about grinding.. Why is it that people have to assume one type fun is better then the other? To some running raids are a lot more fun then it is to guide a rat threw a maze 3+ times while other people stand around beating zombies for meat. Or jumping over bilge water that can disease you if you dont know what your doing your first time in. The necropolis quests can be fun at times but I can understand why some people do not enjoy them and it can be a grind to get a group together that lasts long enough to unlock the favor specially concerning the lower necropolis. I personally love the orchard quests especially flagging for litany but even that isnt for everyone and I have one guildy you have to drag kicking and screaming into the cursed crypts though its a great quest to get your sf trinket upgraded and you can get the docent of defiance, scourge choker and other nice goodies.

Its just perspective to some shroud= guaranteed good times while unless you have a static group the necro series can be a very long drawn out mess. Ive pugged them before and trust me when your in the shadow crypt for over an hour because people cant figure out how to find that one one with the tapestry that leads you to the end fight it can get annoying.

Hanneman
11-30-2009, 01:35 PM
I waited until I was lvl 20 to grind these quests and was able to complete most of the necro quests solo with the exception of the few you need multiple people and have found these pots to be very helpful. They are situational though. After a battle you can chug one to fill your self up and then let the penalties wear off. Very helpful these days with the scarcity of healers. I have been able to complete Prey on the Hunter solo as a fighter using these pots which I never would have considered before.

Bunker
11-30-2009, 01:44 PM
Or they you know can make characters that can heal in other ways. I wasnt knocking the pots I just know they dont benefit the builds I have and would be more of a hinderance then a help..

Also the whole grinding the shroud thing comes up everytime people talk about grinding.. Why is it that people have to assume one type fun is better then the other? To some running raids are a lot more fun then it is to guide a rat threw a maze 3+ times while other people stand around beating zombies for meat. Or jumping over bilge water that can disease you if you dont know what your doing your first time in. The necropolis quests can be fun at times but I can understand why some people do not enjoy them and it can be a grind to get a group together that lasts long enough to unlock the favor specially concerning the lower necropolis. I personally love the orchard quests especially flagging for litany but even that isnt for everyone and I have one guildy you have to drag kicking and screaming into the cursed crypts though its a great quest to get your sf trinket upgraded and you can get the docent of defiance, scourge choker and other nice goodies.

Its just perspective to some shroud= guaranteed good times while unless you have a static group the necro series can be a very long drawn out mess. Ive pugged them before and trust me when your in the shadow crypt for over an hour because people cant figure out how to find that one one with the tapestry that leads you to the end fight it can get annoying.

No disagreement here. Pugville has some rough groups for shizzle. And your point holds water. Not everyone considers questing or raiding to be a grind or vice versa.

This topic has come up numerous times. Talking about how bad the -10 stat debuff is when chugging these pots. Yes, they are not for everyone. Perhaps not the Min/Max Barb with 6 cha and 8 int. They would have to wear 2 items just to get above 10 so they can attack. However, at character startup, if they lower there con and str by 1 each, they can put in a few points to cha and int. When there con and str at cap ar 50-70, 1 point will not matter. Then they can still attack with a 40-60 str and con while chugging these pots. IMHO, this is a huge win for the "almost" min/max barb class. This also goes for other classes that cannot heal themselves.

Keep in mind that this may or ay not apply to every players build. Just take note that there is a tool in place that can be quite useful, and they are called silverflame potions.

Quikster
11-30-2009, 01:45 PM
I see everyone commenting on the -10 stats and the "grinding" of favor.

Isn't running a shroud 10-20 times a week grinding? When you are leveling up a character, if you do th Silverflame favored quests at or around your current level, there is a TON of xp to be given. No Bloodycrypt, Shadowcrypt or Cursecrpt series takes very much time.

As for the -10 stats. If Healing Amp can make the 250 pots heal for close or over 400, that is awesome. You all look at the -10 stats like it stays with you. Just a reminder, it is temporary. Using 1 potion in between fights is far better then a stack of cure serious potions. Even In battle, it is ok if you need to chug 1 if it will save your arse.

I think the few minor negatives to using these potions are more then fine. They are great for almost any class, and I suggest everyone uses them. Like Tony T. "There Greeeeaaatt!"

My comments in relation to the -10 to stats, and the favor grind, was not to say the pots sucked, but that they were not overpowered.

Bunker
11-30-2009, 01:52 PM
My comments in relation to the -10 to stats, and the favor grind, was not to say the pots sucked, but that they were not overpowered.

Right on. I have to agree with you. I think the 30 second debuff is a perfect way to make these pots seem more average in use. I mean heck, any class can use them. They rock. If these pots were running for office, I would volunteer to help post flyers.

Thrudh
11-30-2009, 02:03 PM
Right on. I have to agree with you. I think the 30 second debuff is a perfect way to make these pots seem more average in use. I mean heck, any class can use them. They rock. If these pots were running for office, I would volunteer to help post flyers.

My only concern is we're slowly getting more and more items that negate the bonuses from multi-classing... The new Jump clickable, Displacement clickables from the Shroud, etc.

A potion that ANYONE can use to heal 250 is pretty powerful... It takes away one of the biggest pros for multi-classing an UMD build...

I do agree that the debuff does a decent job of balancing this power... But things change... That debuff isn't nearly as big a deal in a world with 34 and 36 point builds, and multiple items that have multiple slots for +6 stat.... One can still min/max and easily get all stats above 11 today.

With healing amplification, the benefit jumps even more...

The grind is still difficult today, but not as bad as when the potions came out... Hitting those quests on elite with a 20th level character using epic gear and/or Amrath gear and/or PrEs is much easier than at 16th level when that gear and PrEs didn't exist.

What I'm saying is, the benefit has gone up, and the negatives have gone down...

Silver Flame potions are probably still balanced... but the devs need to consider how game changes affect old items as well as new ones.

Dirac
11-30-2009, 02:04 PM
Are the potions bound to character or bound to account?

Hanneman
11-30-2009, 02:07 PM
Are the potions bound to character or bound to account?

They are bound to character.

Kalari
11-30-2009, 04:19 PM
I believe the balance lies in what people think they are worth. To some having the pots (even though they only stack in ten thus taking up more space on a maybe already spaced cramped character, give you the temp -10 to stats and you need 400 sf favor to even get them) is enough of a balance to most because not many people even now are willing to go threw those quests on elite to get this unlocked. And to those who do I say they deserve it. I went into the lower necropolis the other day and did the swim quest with a few level 12's not even 8's as the quest base level is made for and that quest was rough. one person didnt have under water action so he had to stop and touch those spore thingies for air. Getting ambushed as we got out of the water was another rough spot. And two never been in there before so it was one of those quests where I was just glad to be done with it.

I think the potions would be more over powering if anyone could just buy them but as its been said getting the favor is one hurdle, having a build that the pots wont cause more trouble then they are worth is the second, and having enough space to be able to carry more then a few rows is the final. I dont think there needs to be any more balance then that. If you can do all those things trust me youve earned those pots :)

Samadhi
11-30-2009, 09:20 PM
In addition to all other points made - 30 second penalty to movement speed!! No, sir, I would rather regular chug pots on the run and keep moving ><

BlackSteel
11-30-2009, 09:44 PM
My only concern is we're slowly getting more and more items that negate the bonuses from multi-classing... The new Jump clickable, Displacement clickables from the Shroud, etc.

A potion that ANYONE can use to heal 250 is pretty powerful... It takes away one of the biggest pros for multi-classing an UMD build...

I do agree that the debuff does a decent job of balancing this power... But things change... That debuff isn't nearly as big a deal in a world with 34 and 36 point builds, and multiple items that have multiple slots for +6 stat.... One can still min/max and easily get all stats above 11 today.

With healing amplification, the benefit jumps even more...

The grind is still difficult today, but not as bad as when the potions came out... Hitting those quests on elite with a 20th level character using epic gear and/or Amrath gear and/or PrEs is much easier than at 16th level when that gear and PrEs didn't exist.

What I'm saying is, the benefit has gone up, and the negatives have gone down...

Silver Flame potions are probably still balanced... but the devs need to consider how game changes affect old items as well as new ones.

these potions have been in the game for quite awhile thud. and the favor grind is still a pita, considering theres only been 2 new silver flame quests added recently. Its pretty much every single silver flame quest minus 1 of your choosing (might be two now with the amrath quest) I remember the only thing I didnt have was inferno on elite (had hard)

yeh the debuff can be worked around, but the hit to saves really really hurts. I use the pots to keep myself up in abbott, or can actually self heal when tanking anything but horoth. But with the saves penalty you have to keep in mind that you WILL fail pretty much any save thrown yourway while the debuff is kicking. (its a penalty to stats AND saves, so that saves are kinda doubley penalized)

biggest drawback for me is that my barbarian is almost always barely scratching by on cash simply b/c of silver flame pots and yugo pots. both of which are far more expensive than carrying around a stack of heal scrolls.

BlackSteel
11-30-2009, 09:47 PM
I think the potions would be more over powering if anyone could just buy them but as its been said getting the favor is one hurdle, having a build that the pots wont cause more trouble then they are worth is the second, and having enough space to be able to carry more then a few rows is the final. I dont think there needs to be any more balance then that. If you can do all those things trust me youve earned those pots :)

stats are less of a hurdle for most characters than you realize, consider a base stat of 8, most old characters with an abundance of +3 tomes in their belly can easily shrug off the stat penalty. And I'm really looking foward to greater rez to change my wis/char to a base of 8 on my WF just to be able to use the potions w/o an item.

SableShadow
11-30-2009, 09:53 PM
My only concern is we're slowly getting more and more items that negate the bonuses from multi-classing... The new Jump clickable, Displacement clickables from the Shroud, etc.

A potion that ANYONE can use to heal 250 is pretty powerful... It takes away one of the biggest pros for multi-classing an UMD build...

I do agree that the debuff does a decent job of balancing this power... But things change... That debuff isn't nearly as big a deal in a world with 34 and 36 point builds, and multiple items that have multiple slots for +6 stat.... One can still min/max and easily get all stats above 11 today.

With healing amplification, the benefit jumps even more...

The grind is still difficult today, but not as bad as when the potions came out... Hitting those quests on elite with a 20th level character using epic gear and/or Amrath gear and/or PrEs is much easier than at 16th level when that gear and PrEs didn't exist.

What I'm saying is, the benefit has gone up, and the negatives have gone down...

Silver Flame potions are probably still balanced... but the devs need to consider how game changes affect old items as well as new ones.

I think you're being reasonable. We did a guild run to get a couple wf barbs their silverflame favor, took maybe a day or two at 16...easier now, of course.

Few people are going to buy into your argument, though, because the current forum-popular "best spec" on anything melee is str + con + middlin' dex + dumpstats...and these pots punish the dumpstat-ers.