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Dworkin_of_Amber
02-06-2008, 04:27 PM
Update: 8/12/2010 - For some reason, this post has been necro'ed recently. While there is some good basic information still in this posting, it is now 2.5 years old, and the game has changed SIGNIFICANTLY!!!! PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE do not use this thread to base a build off of. Read for some good basic info, but Junts' Paladin Guide is MUCH more up to date.



NOTE: I am currently in the process of updating the entire Build Guide. I will add additional information as I complete the revisions. This includes revisiting and updating all of the Build Templates for Level 16, as well as other modifications due to the every-changing needs and directions of DDO as a whole. As always, any suggestions or feedback is welcome.


The Paladin in Dungeons and Dragons 3.5 edition is a powerhouse against the forces of evil, if built right. So to get you off on the right foot, here are a few pointers.


==========What is a Paladin in DDO?==========
While many may be familiar with the PnP Paladin, the DDO Paladin is a bit of a different beast. DDO Paladins are, usually, front-line melee characters, with limited spell-casting for buffs, healing wand usage, and Lay on Hands for Emergency Healing. Paladins, in general, will have a higher “standing, unbuffed, unstanced” AC than most other classes, but fully buffed and stanced, the Fighter will usually surpass the Paladin in AC, but the Paladin will still have a respectable AC on his own.

The Paladin’s Aura is beneficial to the entire party, including himself, providing bonuses to AC, All Saves, and vs. Fear, and possibly even to boost Concentration. Think of the Paladin as a front-line fighter than can self-heal, cast most of his own buffs, and use Lay on Hands for emergency burst healing to save himself or someone else in the party.

The Paladin won’t always be the on the top of the kills list, but he can be, but they make very good melee fighter-types, and their versatility in spell-casting and wand/scroll usage makes them a boon to every party.

Think of the Paladin as a Melee Fighter, not bound by Multi-Classing Restrictions, as in PnP, with no mount. Yes, this means that the DDO Paladin can Multi-Class without losing their Paladin Abilities, including Rogue!


==========Tips for Playing a Paladin in DDO==========
The Paladin is a versatile, self-healing melee class, with some of the best overall saves in the game, so use that to your advantage. Paladins make one of the best classes for "pulling" (moving ahead of the party to get the monster's attention, then moving backwards to bring them a few at a time back to the rest of the party to kill), as their saves will help prevent enemy casters from hitting them with hold, command, or instant death spells. Paladins are also excellent hunters for enemy spellcasters, especially Evasion-Paladins, as their saves will help them to avoid the enemy spellcasters' spells, allowing them to close in for the kill quickly. Paladins can also help off-load the burden of casting certain buff spells, specifically the Resist Energy spells, thus saving the Cleric or Arcane Caster's spell points for healing and killing. And always remember that a Paladin's Lay on Hands can be used on any party member, and will heal Warforged without the normal healing penalty, even Warforged that are immune to normal cure and heal spells.


==========Choosing a Race for your Paladin==========
Any of the common races make fine Paladins, and all have one or more traditions amongst them as paladins in the service of good. However the vast majority of Paladins in Eberron are Human. This is an important choice for players, as all races in DDO, are quite playable as Paladins, and each have their plusses and minuses. Yes, even Warforged, with their -2 Wisdom & -2 Charisma can make excellent Paladins.


==========The Human Paladin==========
Advantages:

+1 Feat
+1 Skill Point/Level
+1 to 2 Stats
Human Versatility
3 Dragonmark Lines to Choose

Characteristics:

Usually Sword-and-Board.
Human Adaptability allows better balance of starting stats vs. Tomes/Items/Class Enhancements.
Usually has the highest CHA of all Paladins.
Mark of Passage is very common for “Utility/Evasion” Paladin Builds.

Dragonmark Options:

Mark of Making - Repair Light, Repair Serious, Reconstruct.
Mark of Passage - Expeditious Retreat, Dimension Door, Teleport.
Mark of Sentinel - Shield of Faith, Protection from Energy, Globe of Invulnerability.

Preferred Weapons:

Often uses Bonus Feat for Exotic Weapon: Khopesh

Cons:

+1 to 2 Stats instead of +2 to 1 stat

Common Builds:

IntimiTank.
Evasion Paladin.
Evasion Paladin with Rogue Skills
2-Handed DPS Paladin.


==========The Dwarven Paladin==========
Advantages:

Axe/Armor/Tactics/Toughness Enhancements
Racial Saves
Con Bonuses

Characteristics:

Usually sticks to Dwarven Axes, but will use other axes, and occasionally 2-handeds.
Often has a higher Dexterity, due to Racial Armor Mastery.
Usually has the most hit points of all Paladins.

Dragonmark Options:

Mark of Warding - Fire Trap, Glyph of Warding, Greater Glyph of Warding

Preferred Weapons:

Axes: Dwarven Axe, Hand Axe, Great Axe

Cons:

Lower CHA
Poor Dragonmark

Common Builds:

IntimiTank.
2-Handed DPS Paladin.



==========The Warforged Paladin==========
Advantages:

Con Bonuses
Racial Immunities
Follow of Lord of Blades

Characteristics:

Usually goes with Great swords for the Lord of Blades Enhancements.
Lowest CHA and WIS of most Paladins, but Immunities make up for it.
High DR + High Saves + WF Immunities can create a nearly unstoppable build.

Dragonmark Options:

none

Preferred Weapons:

Great sword

Cons:

Body Feat is costly
Lower CHA & WIS
No Dragonmark

Common Builds:

IntimiTank.
2-Handed DPS Paladin.


==========The Elven Paladin==========
Advantages:

Longsword Enhancements
Follower of Sovereign Host
Arcane Archer
Dragonmark of Shadow

Characteristics:

Elven Paladins are almost exclusively Longsword users, as the Racial Bonus and Sovereign Host make them deal a lot of damage.
Usually tied with Drow for the lowest Hit points of all Paladins, but higher Dexterity, and occasionally 2-Weapon Fighters.
Elven Arcane Archer provides an option for a Ranged Paladin.
Mark of Shadow is very powerful mark for Displacement.

Dragonmark Options:

Mark of Shadow - Invisibility, Displacement, Shadow Walk

Preferred Weapons:

Longsword or Longbow

Cons:

Lower CON

Common Builds:

Evasion Paladin.
Evasion Paladin with Rogue Skills.
Two-Weapon Paladin.
Displacement Paladin.
Ranged Paladin.


==========The Drow Paladin==========
Advantages:

Shortsword Enhancements
Follower of Vulkoorim
Starting 10 CHA
Drow SR

Characteristics:

Elven Paladins are almost usually Shortsword users, as the Racial Bonus and Sovereign Host make them deal a lot of damage.
Usually tied with Elves for the lowest Hit points of all Paladins, but higher Dexterity, and occasionally 2-Weapon Fighters.
Drow also start with 10 in CHA, INT, and DEX... making a higher Charisma cost less.
Drow SR can help augment a Paladin's Saves for survivability.

Dragonmark Options:

none

Preferred Weapons:

Rapier or Shortsword

Cons:

Lower CON
No Dragonmark

Common Builds:

Evasion Paladin.
Evasion Paladin with Rogue Skills.
Two-Weapon Paladin.


==========The Halfling Paladin==========
Advantages:

+1 To-Hit
+Dexterity Bonuses
+1 AC Size Bonus
Dragonmark of Healing

Characteristics:

Halfling Paladins tend to be Finesse Fighters, and very often 2-Weapon due to Racial Dexterity, and low starting STR.
Usually have some of the best saves of all Paladins.
Mark of Healing is useful for healing/utility Paladin.

Dragonmark Options:

Mark of Healing - Cure Light, Cure Serious, Heal

Preferred Weapons:

None. Halfling Racial Weapon is for Throwing Weapons, which does not translate well.
Many Halflings go Rapier/Shortsword or Longsword-and-Shield.

Cons:

STR penalty usually means Dexterity-based or TWF, Intimidate Penalty.

Common Builds:

Evasion Paladin.
Two-Weapon Paladin.
Healing Paladin.


==========Important Level Points for Paladin Builds==========
Listed Below are the important “Break Points” for Paladins. These are the levels at which a Paladin gains Key Abilities, Feats, Spells, or Enhancements.

Toughness Enhancements:

Paladin 1 - Toughness 1 (+5 Hit Points)
Paladin 4 - Toughness 2 (+15 Hit Points)
Paladin 7 - Toughness 3 (+30 Hit Points)
Paladin 10 - Toughness 4 (+50 Hit Points)


Class Stat Enhancements (Charisma):

Paladin 2 - Stat +1
Paladin 6 - Stat +2
Paladin 10 - Stat +3


Paladin Break Points:

Paladin 1 - Limited Divine Wand Usage, Paladin Aura (+1 AC, +1 Saves)
Paladin 2 - Divine Grace (Cha Bonus to Saves), Lay on Hands, Enhancement: CHA +1
Paladin 3 - Divine Health (Disease Immunity) & Fear Immunity, Enhancement: Resistance/Bulwark of Good 1, Enhancement: +1 Lay On Hands
Paladin 4 - Level 1 Spells, Turn Undead, Divine Favor +1/+1
Paladin 6 - Enhancement: CHA +2, Divine Favor +2/+2
Paladin 7 - Enhancement: Resistance/Bulwark of Good 2
Paladin 8 - Level 2 Spells, Enhancement: +1 Lay on Hands
Paladin 9 - Divine Favor +3/+3 (Cap)
Paladin 10 - Enhancement: CHA +3
Paladin 11 - 30-point Resist Energy, Enhancement: Resistance/Bulwark of Good 3
Paladin 12 - Level 3 Spells, Enhancement: +1 LoH
Paladin 14 - Level 4 Spells



==========Notes on Multi-classing a Paladin in DDO==========
Given that DDO has removed the penalties associated with Multi-Classing that exist in PnP, Paladins are a class well-suited to Multi-Classing. As a Paladin can be mixed in with 6 of the remaining 8 classes (Barbarian and Bard are not allowed due to Alignment Restrictions), many offer the Paladin a great deal of flexibility, versatility, and melee power. Fighter/Paladin mixes are very popular to maximize both DPS potential and Armor Class. Paladin/Rogue or Paladin/Rogue/xxx are also popular options to mix the Paladins high saves with Evasion, and many times with full UMD or even Open/Disable/Search. Other, less common options, include Ranger for Two-Weapon Fighting or Sorcerer for more Spell Points.


Common Options for Multi-Classing:

Fighter 1-3 - Splash for Tower Shield, Bonus Feats & Enhancements, a little more DPS focus
Fighter 7-9 - Max AC build or 2-Handed with Moderate AC & Saves
Fighter 12/14 - Primary Fighter with Paladin Splash for Wand Usage, Divine Grace, Divine Health, Spell Casting
Ranger 1/2 - Dexterity Based/Ranged Build for Bow Strength, or Free TWF
Ranger 14 - Paladin 2 Splash for Saves & Heavy Armor
Rogue 2 - Evasion, +1 Dexterity, +1d6 Sneak Attack, +Skill Points (UMD)
Sorcerer 1 - SP, 3x L1 Spells, Arcane Wand Usage



Uncommon Options for Multi-classing

Cleric 1 - More Turn Undead, Full Divine Wand Usage, Divine Vitality 1, More SP
Wizard 1 - Same as Sorcerer, but uncommon due to lower INT than CHA for most Paladins
Sorcerer 6/8 - Self-buffing melee fighter



==========Building a Paladin==========
Paladins can be one of the more challenging classes to plan out for building, as their reliance on 5 of the 6 Stats require many critical decisions while rolling. Some important decisions must be made on the eventual class breakdown of your Paladin to help determine your stats. Strength and Constitution are stats that should be kept high whenever possible, due to the nature of Melee Combat in DDO. Dexterity depends on your build, as most Paladins will target between 12 and 20 Dexterity, fully equipped at Level 14/16. 12 Dexterity is sufficient for most Pure Paladins, as that will max out their Full Plate, with Max AC Builds and Evasion Paladins usually targeting 20 Dexterity. Intelligence is usually of little concern for the Paladin, as his Class Skill list is poor, however Combat Expertise requires 13 INT, and is usually taken in the Fighter/Paladin builds. Wisdom is the key to spell points and casting spells. Paladins are Divine casters, and must have 10 Wisdom + 1 Wisdom per Spell Level, so the highest Wisdom a Paladin will ever need to cast spells is 14 Wisdom. Remember: A Paladin’s ability to cast spells is based on his current Wisdom, so 8 Base Wisdom and a +6 Wisdom Item will allow a Paladin to cast any Paladin Spell in the Game! Charisma is also important to all Paladins, as Divine Grace adds his Charisma Modifier to all saves, as well as the Charisma Modifier powering Lay on Hands and Smite Evil. It is generally accepted that 20-24 Charisma is a good target for most Paladins, as higher Charisma will usually come at the cost of other stats, which can be more important to the Paladin. Remember that the Paladin can gain up to +3 Charisma from his Enhancements by level 10, and while no current DDO Race offers Charisma as a Racial Stat, Humans are allowed +1 to 2 different Stats, which is a common reason for the popularity of Human Paladins.

Taken all together, the “typical” Paladin will start with 16-17 Strength, 8-13 Dexterity, 12-16 Constitution, 8 or 12/13 Intelligence, 8-11 Wisdom, and 12-14 Charisma.


==========Paladin Feats==========
As the Paladin is a Melee class, many of the feats are easy to select, such as Weapon Focus, Improved Critical, and Toughness. Beyond those, the feats differ depending on the Build and role of the Paladin. Paladins that splash Rogue will typically take Skill Focus: UMD, while healing/casting oriented Pure Paladins will take Mental Toughness / Improved Mental Toughness and Extend Spell. AC-focused builds will often take Combat Expertise and Dodge, and Skill Focus: Intimidate for IntimiTanks, along with Shield Mastery and Improved Shield Mastery. Module 6 will also offer the Paladin Force of Personality, which substitutes his Charisma modifier in place of Wisdom for the Will Save. This can be a useful feat for higher Charisma builds, or builds that are not as dependant on their Wisdom for casting, or have sufficient Wisdom without an item to cast the needed spells, thus potentially freeing an item slot. Dragonmarks are also a good consideration for Halflings, Elves, and Humans, as the Halfling Healing Mark provides strong Healing abilities, the Elven Shadow Mark offers Displacement, and the Human Passage Mark gives Expeditious Retreat and Dimension Door.

Paladins usually do not need to invest their feats into Saves-based Feats, such as Luck of Heroes or Iron Will, but Bullheaded is a common choice for IntimiTanks due to the bonus to Intimidate. Other specialty Multi-classed Paladin builds may take feats to complement their other classes, such as Nimble Fingers of Skill Focus: Disable for Rogue skills enabled Paladins.


==========Paladins and Armor Class==========
AC is a highly debated subject for DDO, but to break the discussion down, when you are talking the current "end-game" in DDO (Gianthold, Orchard, Stormreaver, etc)... than AC less than 50 is basically not worth worrying about, and that 55 is the real "magic number" to go from getting hit almost all the time to getting hit rarely. This target number may change with the upcoming Mod 6, but for now we will use 55 as the "Magic Number"

Ok, so given a Magic Number of 55 AC, then what does this mean for the Paladin? Paladins can certainly hit 55 AC, if they really focus on AC, have some very high-end gear, raid loot, and Combat Expertise... but most players do not have access to that type of gear. So, what other numbers "Matter". Outside of the Gianthold, 40-45 AC is a great target range, very easily hit by Paladins with easily obtainable gear. On Normal, many Evasion Paladins have reported tanking Velah on Normal and never getting hit with around a 45 AC!

So, if you are going to focus on AC, then you need to focus on it completely, with Combat Expertise, and probably a 12F/4P or 11P/5F or 7F/7P split to really focus on AC. If you are not building a primarily AC-focused Paladin, then avoid Feats such as Dodge and Combat Expertise, and focus on DPS or Utility, or whatever your desired role for your Paladin, and don’t worry about AC.

Rule of Thumb: 42-45 AC is great for everything up to the Desert. 55 AC is needed from the Gianthold on.

Dworkin_of_Amber
02-06-2008, 04:28 PM
Reserved for future additions

Dworkin_of_Amber
02-06-2008, 04:29 PM
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Dworkin_of_Amber
02-06-2008, 04:29 PM
Reserved for future additions..

Dworkin_of_Amber
02-06-2008, 04:30 PM
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Dworkin_of_Amber
02-06-2008, 04:30 PM
Reserved for future additions....

Dworkin_of_Amber
02-06-2008, 04:31 PM
Reserved for future additions.....

Dworkin_of_Amber
02-06-2008, 04:32 PM
Reserved for future additions......

Hvymetal
02-07-2008, 12:28 PM
Once again want to say thanks for this.

alchilito
11-02-2008, 01:39 PM
thank you dworkin for your insights into the paladin class

I am proud to say I have a Dworkin of Amber paladin !!!

Mithran
11-03-2008, 07:43 AM
I'll be interested to see if my builds measure up.

One objection I have at first blush is that Intimidate is a cross-Class Skill for Paladins, so unless you're splashing Rogue or Fighter levels, the Intimidate Skill will prove ineffective, and a waste of Skill points at higher levels. With the splash, it works well because a well-built Paladin will have a high Charisma and therefore a nice buff to the Intimidate with the proviso that the splash of Rogue or Fighter is mandatory.

I will commend Dworkin on his suggestion of Skill Focus: UMD for my main, Fedaykin. I'm thinking of maybe swapping it out when PrC's are added, but that depends on how the PrC's pan out.

Dexxaan
11-03-2008, 11:06 AM
Glad to see your back Dworkin.

Few people have the Paladin Class knowledge base you have and display.

You took a long time off.....don't do that again. :D

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-03-2008, 02:25 PM
I'll be interested to see if my builds measure up.

One objection I have at first blush is that Intimidate is a cross-Class Skill for Paladins, so unless you're splashing Rogue or Fighter levels, the Intimidate Skill will prove ineffective, and a waste of Skill points at higher levels. With the splash, it works well because a well-built Paladin will have a high Charisma and therefore a nice buff to the Intimidate with the proviso that the splash of Rogue or Fighter is mandatory.

I will commend Dworkin on his suggestion of Skill Focus: UMD for my main, Fedaykin. I'm thinking of maybe swapping it out when PrC's are added, but that depends on how the PrC's pan out.

Thanks Mithran.

While some of these build may be getting a little long in the tooth, and not quite as competitive in the post-Mod 8 world, I think the basic frameworks are still valid... just might need some tweaking. But I still stand by my recommendation on UMD for *ANY* character that can possibly fit it in (and if you can't, I would think long and hard about the build before proceeding).

UMD is, without a doubt, one of the most overpowered and most important skills in DDO. By allowing it to be leveled as a cross-class skill, UMD allows builds and equipment that can make builds shine. If for no other reason, the ability to ignore Race-Restrictions alone make UMD a worthwhile investment (unless, of course, you have the bajillions of plat and Large Scales, and you can uber-twink out your character with named/static/crafted/raid items and never have to worry about a random drop).

Let me put it another way, unless you are rolling a Cleric, or a pure-DPS-monster-Barbarian, I would question any build I see without UMD as a ranked-up skill. And even the monster-DPS Barbarian... would a single Rogue level really detract from DPS that much to offset the gains from a full 19 ranks of UMD?

1 Level of Rogue or Bard, with just 10 INT, for most builds, is enough to max out UMD. Assume only 8 CHA... 19 (Ranks) - 1 (CHA) + 1 (Voice of the Master) + 3 (Golden Cartouche) + 4 (Greater Heroism) = 26 UMD. 26 UMD means *ANY* Race or Alignment Restricted Item in the game can be equipped (For those that have a UMD Check). And 26 UMD also means CSW wands on a 2 (If you can't natively use a wand)... and in a real pinch, a Raise Dead scroll on a 10 or better. And that is with Static Loot drops only! Get a Head of Good Fortune, Seven-Fingered Gloves, +CHA Skills GreenSteel Item, etc, and it only gets better.

And I am sorry, even if you only have a 50% chance to succeed on a Raise Dead Scroll, if you have even a 25% chance to succeed, you should carry Raise Dead Scrolls at *ALL TIMES*!!! Just one Raise Dead can save the party from a total wipe. While they are not the be-all-end-all, scrolls and potions are too cheap (even for plat-strapped players like me) to not carry. The number of times I have run the Shroud, or other high-level content, and heard Fighters and Rogues, and Paladins asking for Lesser Restores, or Neutralize Poison, or Remove Curse/Disease/Blindness... HOLY **** PEOPLE!?!?! Yes I may have 4 capped character, and between all of my characters I don't think I could scrape together 100k plat to save my life, but EVERY one of my characters, no matter what level or class, carries basic potions, and scrolls (if they can use them). Lesser Restore Pots are some of the cheapest out there, yet so few people carry them. Instead, they would rather waste the Cleric's mana on Lesser Restores for their Strength Damage, instead of drinking a 600 GP potion, and saving the Cleric's mana for, oh, I don't know, healing the party, or a raise dead, or a Blade Barrier!?!?

How many times do you see LFM's up for a group of 5 waiting for a Cleric? You know what, most of the time, if the party was properly equipped with potions, scrolls, and such, a Cleric is not needed. There are very few quests, outside the Raids, where a Cleric is required if the party is properly outfitted...

sorry /rant off

Dworkin

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-03-2008, 02:26 PM
Glad to see your back Dworkin.

Few people have the Paladin Class knowledge base you have and display.

You took a long time off.....don't do that again. :D

LOL. Thanks Dexxan... RL is finally calming down.
I'll try not to be gone so long. I know I need to update some builds, but we'll see when I get time.

Dworkin

query
03-09-2009, 06:31 AM
prepare to update for Level 20, not 16 soon!

The game changes dramaticly with the prestige enhancements, capstones, and the upping of the tomes' + number.

Suddenly, that "take 1 for UMD" might not have been a good idea if you went for the Chalice Prestige Enhancement and are needing that capstone for more oomph to the baddies.

(But rogue abilities have their own benefits; was just making an updated example.)

And I look forward to your posts as I wonder which way my soon to be created drow Paladin will go when staying pure class....

Dworkin_of_Amber
03-17-2009, 01:55 PM
I know an update is LOOOOONG overdue, but I have been waiting to see how things fall out first. I know many want to get some ideas ahead of time, but we don't have all the PrE information yet, and while Capstones look interesting, it is a bit early to tell yet.

My gut feeling, is that while the Paladin Capstone is nice, the Tier-3 PrE is more important, and those last 2 levels (assuming 18 Paladin) can be far better used with a MC splash than the benefit of the Capstone.

Look at it this way... is an extra 1d6 or 2d6 and the "Good" alignment for DR more important than say, Evasion, Full UMD, Monk Wisdom to AC Bonus, Tower Shield, 2 Fighter Bonus Feats, Free TWF, or many of the other benefits that can be gained from MultiClassing those last 2 levels? I guess it depends on the build, but I would think long and hard before committing to Paladin 19 or 20.

Yes, I understand the class purists, and they will play pure class regardless, but let's be honest, to powergame in DDO on Elite and in Raids, you have to Min/Max as much as you can, and get every bit of everything out of your stats, classes, feats, and items. So, even at that point, is Paladin 18 really worth the benefit of the Tier 3 PrE, vs. going with Paladin 12 for Tier 2 PrE, leaving 8 levels for other class(es).

Is Paladin 18 / Fighter 2 (or Rogue 2, or Monk 2) better than, say Paladin 12 / Fighter 6 / Rogue 2 (or Monk 2). Pal 12/Fgt 6 gives access to 2 different PrE's, one at Tier 1, one at Tier 2... plus Evasion/UMD or Monk AC.... that is a LOT of extra stuff to gain over PrE Tier 3!!!

Or, for the TWF Pally... what about Pal 12 / Rng 6 / Mnk 2 - For Tempest 1, a Tier 2 Pally PrE, and Monk AC Bonus... vs. Pal 18 / Mnk 2, giving up Tempest 1? A Hard Choice, but don't let the Capstone divert you. I would say for *ANY* Paladin, to look long and hard at the Pros and Cons of what you do with your last 4 levels.

If you are Pure Paladin 16, then look at what 2 more, and then 4 more levels of Pally get you, vs. what 2 levels or 2/2 (I don't think 3/1 works well in most cases, but maybe) levels of other classes get you.

For example, a Knight of the Chalice SnB Build:
4 Levels of Paladin Give Me:


40 Hp Base
+x/+x/+x Base Saves
+1 Level 1 Spell
+1 Level 2 Spell
+1 Level 3 Spell
+2 Level 4 Spell
+1 Smite Evil
AP's Available: +1 Extra Smite, +1 Extra Exalted Smite,
Knight of the Chalice 3 - +1 To Hit, +2d6, +1 Saves vs. Evil Outsider
Capstone - +1d6 vs Non-Good, +2d6 vs. Undead

2 Levels of Paladin Give Me:


20 hp Base
+x/+x/+x Base Saves
+1 Level 1 Spell
+1 Level 3 Spell
AP's Available: +1 Extra Smite, +1 Extra Exalted Smite,
Knight of the Chalice 3 - +1 To Hit, +2d6, +1 Saves vs. Evil Outsider

2 Levels of Rogue Give Me:


12 Hp Base
+0/+3/+0 Base Saves
Evasion
UMD as Class Skill, possibly Maxxed out (As well as Balance/OL/DD/Search/Spot/Etc
+1d6 Sneak Attack
AP's Available: +1 Dex, +1 Sneak Attack Damage

2 Levels of Monk Give Me:


16 Hp Base
+x/+x/+x Base Saves
Wisdom Bonus to AC
Kama Proficiency
Unarmed Combat
Tier 1 Monk Stance
AP's Available:1 Wis

2 Levels of Fighter Give Me:


20 Hp Base
+x/+x/+x Base Saves
Tower Shield Proficiency
2 Bonus Fighter Feats
Intimidate as Class Skill
AP's Available: +1 STR, ....


I'm not listing everything here... but an idea of what to look at.

So look at the "4 Pally Levels Get Me", and compare it to "2 Pally Levels + 2 XXXX Levels", and the various permutations (Pal/Rog, Pal/Mnk, Pal/Fgt).... then what about no more pally, and 4 levels of the other classes, or 2/2 split of the others.... and see what looks best for you, and your gameplay style. To me, Evasion and UMD are VERY VERY VERY hard to turn down, but that matches my gameplay style. I love my Holy Avenger, and his ability to UMD damn near anything... that "yeah, I can do that!" mentality... Rez Scrolls, Heal Scrolls, Greater Teleport Scrolls, Restoration Scrolls, L10 Shield Wands, etc... But maybe that isn't important to you... YMMV

Just some thoughts.

Dworkin

Dworkin_of_Amber
06-19-2009, 11:53 AM
****, I guess I need an entirely new section for Monk 2 vs. Rogue 2... :eek:

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-09-2009, 04:31 PM
While I know some of this is outdated, I am bumping this thread given the expected influx of new F2P players.

Mithran
09-28-2009, 08:37 PM
I thought this should be included in the Thread. This build was heavily influenced by my chats with Dworkin, over the years, here. She's been fun to play and I'm curious to see how she works at 20. I pulled the Seven-Fingered Gloves from a Titan run and made her Air/Air/Air Goggles for +6 to Charisma Skills. I don't know what the effect would be of substituting Skill Focus: Intimidate for Combat Expertise. Even as it is, she accidentally pulled Xy'zzy from the Hounds, yesterday (for eight seconds).


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.10
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)

Finduilas
Level 20 Lawful Good Drow Female
(18 Paladin \ 2 Rogue)
Hit Points: 334
Spell Points: 272
BAB: 19\19\24\29\29
Fortitude: 20
Reflex: 22
Will: 14

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Stats Base Stats Modified Stats
Abilities (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Strength 16 22 22
Dexterity 15 19 22
Constitution 12 14 14
Intelligence 11 14 14
Wisdom 9 12 12
Charisma 15 18 18

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 1
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1
+1 Tome of Wisdom used at level 1
+1 Tome of Charisma used at level 1
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 16
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 16
+3 Tome of Intelligence used at level 16
+3 Tome of Dexterity used at level 20
+3 Tome of Wisdom used at level 20
+3 Tome of Charisma used at level 20

Starting Ending Feat/Enhancement
Base Skills Base Skills Modified Skills
Skills (Level 1) (Level 20) (Level 20)
Balance 7 10 11
Bluff 3 4 4
Concentration 1 2 2
Diplomacy 7 8 8
Disable Device n/a n/a n/a
Haggle 3 4 4
Heal 0 1 1
Hide 3 6 6
Intimidate 7 27 27
Jump 7 10 10
Listen 0 1 3
Move Silently 3 6 6
Open Lock n/a n/a n/a
Perform n/a n/a n/a
Repair 1 2 2
Search 1 2 4
Spot 4 5 7
Swim 7 10 10
Tumble 7 10 10
Use Magic Device 7 27 27

Level 1 (Rogue)
Skill: Balance (+4)
Skill: Diplomacy (+4)
Skill: Intimidate (+4)
Skill: Jump (+4)
Skill: Spot (+4)
Skill: Swim (+4)
Skill: Tumble (+4)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+4)
Feat: (Selected) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 3 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness


Level 4 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 5 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Extend Spell


Level 7 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 8 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 9 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting


Level 10 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 11 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 12 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Piercing Weapons


Level 13 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 14 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 15 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+0.5)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Rogue)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+8)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Haste Boost I
Enhancement: Drow Melee Attack I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity I
Enhancement: Silver Flame Exorcism
Enhancement: Follower of the Silver Flame
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Courage of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good I
Enhancement: Paladin Resistance of Good II
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Righteousness I
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Sacrifice I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite I
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite II
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil I
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil II
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil III
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Smite Evil IV
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice I
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Rogue Balance I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar I
Enhancement: Paladin Energy of the Templar II
Enhancement: Rogue Dexterity I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness I
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness II
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness III
Enhancement: Paladin Toughness IV
Enhancement: Paladin Divine Might I


Level 17 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise


Level 19 (Paladin)
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: STR
Skill: Intimidate (+1)
Skill: Use Magic Device (+1)
Enhancement: Rogue Skill Boost I
Enhancement: Elven Dexterity II
Enhancement: Paladin Bulwark of Good III
Enhancement: Paladin Exalted Smite IV
Enhancement: Paladin Extra Lay on Hands II
Enhancement: Paladin Knight of the Chalice III

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-29-2009, 09:05 AM
I thought this should be included in the Thread. This build was heavily influenced by my chats with Dworkin, over the years, here. She's been fun to play and I'm curious to see how she works at 20. I pulled the Seven-Fingered Gloves from a Titan run and made her Air/Air/Air Goggles for +6 to Charisma Skills. I don't know what the effect would be of substituting Skill Focus: Intimidate for Combat Expertise. Even as it is, she accidentally pulled Xy'zzy from the Hounds, yesterday (for eight seconds).



Mithran,

Looks like a solid build. How are you liking KotC? I like that PrE, on paper, but the Enhancement requirements seem VERY stiff to me, and seem like they could limit the options of the build... but I haven't looked that deeply into it.

I think she should be a good competent build at Level 20, but I do wonder if CE is really worth it, if you are primarily TWF? I don't know your gear loadout, so I am not sure what kind of AC you are looking at (but it should be 55-ish "around town", and low to mid 60's self-buffed with CE)... Of course, what Feat do you really need? I don't know that +3 Intimidate is really that big of a deal for you.

I think that any Evasion Paladin that is primarily TWF (and has good weapons to play with) should be in good shape for Mod 9 and the foreseeable future. I do have concerns for the SnB builds (including my own), as the Damage output just isn't there...

Hirosue
09-29-2009, 09:23 AM
Nice guide. Just thought that I would add something. The attack speed of 2 handed weapons has been equalised now. So anyone rolling a paladin should seriously considers using falchions as you main weapon. This is an especially good weapon for a paladin once you start using your smites and divine sacrifices.

The reason is the large critical range. This means that you have a much better chance of a critical smite. For new players check the auction house regularly for keen falchion. With luck you will find this weapon with a level 2 minimum level. Keen of pure good is even better (level 4 weapon). With a keen falchion you will critical hit on a roll of 15-20 if you are lucky you will critical smite fairly often.

As you level up and get more enhancements in the exalted smite and sacrifice line you will regularly critical smite for big damage. The higher smite enhancements increase the critical threat range and multiplier. I.e. that 15-20 critical range x2 multiple can end up as 13-20 x4. This will almost guarantee regular critical smites. If you factor in power attack and say a bloodstone you are looking at some serious damage output.

My level 16 elven paladin critical smites start at 400 damage and I have seen over 1000 with my greater giant bane thundering falchion :O)

Dworkin_of_Amber
09-29-2009, 11:59 AM
Nice guide. Just thought that I would add something. The attack speed of 2 handed weapons has been equalised now. So anyone rolling a paladin should seriously considers using falchions as you main weapon. This is an especially good weapon for a paladin once you start using your smites and divine sacrifices.

The reason is the large critical range. This means that you have a much better chance of a critical smite. For new players check the auction house regularly for keen falchion. With luck you will find this weapon with a level 2 minimum level. Keen of pure good is even better (level 4 weapon). With a keen falchion you will critical hit on a roll of 15-20 if you are lucky you will critical smite fairly often.

As you level up and get more enhancements in the exalted smite and sacrifice line you will regularly critical smite for big damage. The higher smite enhancements increase the critical threat range and multiplier. I.e. that 15-20 critical range x2 multiple can end up as 13-20 x4. This will almost guarantee regular critical smites. If you factor in power attack and say a bloodstone you are looking at some serious damage output.

My level 16 elven paladin critical smites start at 400 damage and I have seen over 1000 with my greater giant bane thundering falchion :O)

This is a VERY good point. With the balancing of most all the weapons, Falcions are a VERY good options for newer players without the gobs of hoarded loot and ingredients for crafting. Falcions are a bit expensive on the AH because of this (not as bad as Rapiers), but careful shopping will always lead to a few gems to purchase out there.

And for those THF builds, never ever ever forget Carniflex... that is one AMAZING weapon for mid levels

Mithran
11-06-2009, 01:19 PM
Mithran,

Looks like a solid build. How are you liking KotC? I like that PrE, on paper, but the Enhancement requirements seem VERY stiff to me, and seem like they could limit the options of the build... but I haven't looked that deeply into it.

I think she should be a good competent build at Level 20, but I do wonder if CE is really worth it, if you are primarily TWF? I don't know your gear loadout, so I am not sure what kind of AC you are looking at (but it should be 55-ish "around town", and low to mid 60's self-buffed with CE)... Of course, what Feat do you really need? I don't know that +3 Intimidate is really that big of a deal for you.

I think that any Evasion Paladin that is primarily TWF (and has good weapons to play with) should be in good shape for Mod 9 and the foreseeable future. I do have concerns for the SnB builds (including my own), as the Damage output just isn't there...

I haven't really even begun to work on her A/C, but she's next in line after Nellas. At the moment, she's all dps. Her Dragontouched Outfit has the Sovereign Levik's which was lucky and I haven't really worked out what I'm gonna do with her gear setup. The Circlet of Hatred will eventually take the place of the Intimidate ring that she has, but she's still a relatively new roll. The Seven-Fingered Gloves she pulled on like her second run of the Titan. She's been very lucky, so far.

Dworkin_of_Amber
11-07-2009, 12:05 AM
I haven't really even begun to work on her A/C, but she's next in line after Nellas. At the moment, she's all dps. Her Dragontouched Outfit has the Sovereign Levik's which was lucky and I haven't really worked out what I'm gonna do with her gear setup. The Circlet of Hatred will eventually take the place of the Intimidate ring that she has, but she's still a relatively new roll. The Seven-Fingered Gloves she pulled on like her second run of the Titan. She's been very lucky, so far.

Glad to hear that it has worked out for you.
Good Luck, and Good Hunting!

-Dworkin

Komitulek
12-16-2009, 09:44 PM
So you sprinkle in a little rogue for UMB, and jack up the INT to just 10, and...sacrifice what?

Junts
12-17-2009, 01:46 AM
So you sprinkle in a little rogue for UMB, and jack up the INT to just 10, and...sacrifice what?



The poster who maintained this thread has since left DDO.

I created this thread to replace it:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=218542

Giving up paladin 19 and 20 costs you 3 heavily damage-focused enhancements, though its capable to be an excecllent damage dealer without them, pure paladins built around them are tops in the game quality damage dealers.

Junts
12-17-2009, 01:47 AM
wrong thread, wierd

Komitulek
12-18-2009, 12:31 AM
Wasn't intending on ever getting remotely close to 19 or 20 Pal, as I was looking at the 7ftr/7pal intimitank (extended to the 20 level limit) when I got to the "ZOMG YOU MUST GET UMD" post.

Junts
12-18-2009, 03:57 AM
Wasn't intending on ever getting remotely close to 19 or 20 Pal, as I was looking at the 7ftr/7pal intimitank (extended to the 20 level limit) when I got to the "ZOMG YOU MUST GET UMD" post.

This is a pretty old post; generally, multiclasses split that evenly will drastically under-perform one that takes mostof its levels in either class.

Anthios888
12-18-2009, 04:20 AM
This is a pretty old post; generally, multiclasses split that evenly will drastically under-perform one that takes mostof its levels in either class.

Pretty strong language there. Some of the very nice 12/6/2 or 12/8 builds are very competitive and fun to play.

quickgrif
12-18-2009, 04:30 AM
This is a pretty old post; generally, multiclasses split that evenly will drastically under-perform one that takes mostof its levels in either class.

Well my 12 ftr 6 pally 2 monk (kensi/HotD) performs just fine thank you :D

Life_claimer_Z
12-18-2009, 05:47 AM
Most appreciated for this, greatly helps me with my current AC pally im building. Didnt take combat expertise though has roughly 32-34 ac standing.

Dworkin_of_Amber
12-18-2009, 08:57 AM
Not quite dead and gone...
Still lurking a bit in the forums! :D (my sub doesn't run out until Feb)

But yes, the game has changed considerably since most of this was written, and many of the basic build templates here are no longer competitive at end-game. Primarily the introduction of Monk and the new PrE's have changed the game completely. I would suggest looking at SteeleTrueheart or Junts threads to see what is a better and more viable build, and go from there.

Fireball241
08-04-2010, 01:33 PM
For classes the rely on mulitiple stats like Palindins and Rangers I think too much importance is placed on CON.

Ie. Paladins need WIS for spell points. Yet one guy on here recommends an 8 WIS in favor on CON.

The reason why CON is not as important is that the Toughness feat is cheaper. upto 40pts by lvl4-5 extra taking Toughness yet many builds choose to save it for later levels. I even take if for Rangers that only get 20 pts out of it.

The reason is u die less!

Wisdom is more important because you can heal back the points u are lacking from CON.
Also Cure Light Wound wands are cheap. Paladins also have Layonhands. In the middle of combat adding 50 to 150 hit points instanaeously is a huge advantage for a tank. Making CON even less important.

For Paladins and Rangers take less INT. Get the STR upto 14-16. The DEX upto 14-16. Pallies need the CHR upto 15-16. Then WIS upto 12-14. (12 is best). I wouldn't do more than 1 for in in WIS, CON, INT.

Rangers can take less CHR and more STR or DEX depending on melee or ranged, weapon finese, bow str.

Pallies should be melee. STR16, DEX12-14, CON10, WIS12-14, INT8, CHR15-17
depending on how u play it. Using 3pts for 1 stat pt is not good.

Crimzin1
08-07-2010, 03:31 PM
There are a lot of good things said about evasion pal, especially in end-game.

I don't have a 32 point build, so I've set dex as my dumps stat.

So, my choices right now are to either:
splash 2 lvl of rogue to get evasion, wear light armor despite of my lack of dex bonus and be of low AC.
or
forgo evasion, wear heavy armor, and have high ac.

Which one of the two choices above do you think is more suitable for a frontline melee pal?

Junts
08-07-2010, 04:35 PM
There are a lot of good things said about evasion pal, especially in end-game.

I don't have a 32 point build, so I've set dex as my dumps stat.

So, my choices right now are to either:
splash 2 lvl of rogue to get evasion, wear light armor despite of my lack of dex bonus and be of low AC.
or
forgo evasion, wear heavy armor, and have high ac.

Which one of the two choices above do you think is more suitable for a frontline melee pal?

This thread is about 2-3 years old and isn't maintained anymore, you'd probably have more luck with the current paladin guide thread, which is also on the first page of this forum, and covers a lot of the tradeoffs involved in this kind of situation.

Djimonte
08-07-2010, 04:48 PM
Junts would you like to explain what "three damage enhancements you skip by not being straight 20 paladin.
I am aware of the capstone but I am not sure which other two enhancements you are refering to thanx
Also the synergy with pally/ 2 rogue is nice, 2 monk is nicer (dependant on playstyle) and 2 fighter is a great combination that seems to outperform a capstoned paladin. Also am curious if you have multiclassed a paladin as your statement isn't entirely accurate at all.

Junts
08-07-2010, 05:20 PM
Junts would you like to explain what "three damage enhancements you skip by not being straight 20 paladin.
I am aware of the capstone but I am not sure which other two enhancements you are refering to thanx
Also the synergy with pally/ 2 rogue is nice, 2 monk is nicer (dependant on playstyle) and 2 fighter is a great combination that seems to outperform a capstoned paladin. Also am curious if you have multiclassed a paladin as your statement isn't entirely accurate at all.

In the right thread, yes, I would.

Both of my paladins were 18/2 until very recently, when I used a lesser recarnation to move one of them to pure 20 (about a week and a half ago).

Divine Might 4 is paladin 20
Divine Sacrifice 3 is paladin 19

Both are fairly significant damage-adders.

I will not respond to further posts in this thread, its a dead thread and I'm not going to continue to necro it and lead to people reading the OP and thinking its current advice.

lord_of_rage
08-07-2010, 08:01 PM
For classes the rely on mulitiple stats like Palindins and Rangers I think too much importance is placed on CON.

Ie. Paladins need WIS for spell points. Yet one guy on here recommends an 8 WIS in favor on CON.

The reason why CON is not as important is that the Toughness feat is cheaper. upto 40pts by lvl4-5 extra taking Toughness yet many builds choose to save it for later levels. I even take if for Rangers that only get 20 pts out of it.

The reason is u die less!

Wisdom is more important because you can heal back the points u are lacking from CON.
Also Cure Light Wound wands are cheap. Paladins also have Layonhands. In the middle of combat adding 50 to 150 hit points instanaeously is a huge advantage for a tank. Making CON even less important.

For Paladins and Rangers take less INT. Get the STR upto 14-16. The DEX upto 14-16. Pallies need the CHR upto 15-16. Then WIS upto 12-14. (12 is best). I wouldn't do more than 1 for in in WIS, CON, INT.

Rangers can take less CHR and more STR or DEX depending on melee or ranged, weapon finese, bow str.

Pallies should be melee. STR16, DEX12-14, CON10, WIS12-14, INT8, CHR15-17
depending on how u play it. Using 3pts for 1 stat pt is not good.

You sir do not have a clue on how to roll an effective paladin. A 12 base con is low, but required for twf paladins. A 10 base con is just not smart. You only need a 14 wis to cast your top spells. So 8 base +2 tome +6 item. You cannot effectively main tank end game bosses with a 10 base con. You do not have enough time in the game to give such bad advice.

coldname
08-09-2010, 12:14 PM
removed didnt know this was old until i read further down.

Dworkin_of_Amber
08-12-2010, 09:34 PM
Yeah, geez... talk about a thread necro! :)

Folks, this is OLD Tech... not recommended anymore!

ThunderTank
08-13-2010, 09:03 AM
For classes the rely on mulitiple stats like Palindins and Rangers I think too much importance is placed on CON.

Ie. Paladins need WIS for spell points. Yet one guy on here recommends an 8 WIS in favor on CON.

The reason why CON is not as important is that the Toughness feat is cheaper. upto 40pts by lvl4-5 extra taking Toughness yet many builds choose to save it for later levels. I even take if for Rangers that only get 20 pts out of it.

The reason is u die less!

Wisdom is more important because you can heal back the points u are lacking from CON.
Also Cure Light Wound wands are cheap. Paladins also have Layonhands. In the middle of combat adding 50 to 150 hit points instanaeously is a huge advantage for a tank. Making CON even less important.

For Paladins and Rangers take less INT. Get the STR upto 14-16. The DEX upto 14-16. Pallies need the CHR upto 15-16. Then WIS upto 12-14. (12 is best). I wouldn't do more than 1 for in in WIS, CON, INT.

Rangers can take less CHR and more STR or DEX depending on melee or ranged, weapon finese, bow str.

Pallies should be melee. STR16, DEX12-14, CON10, WIS12-14, INT8, CHR15-17
depending on how u play it. Using 3pts for 1 stat pt is not good.


I'd recommend 6 con drow for endgame pwnage.

:rolleyes:

elgaeb
04-11-2011, 03:52 AM
Mithran,

I think that any Evasion Paladin that is primarily TWF (and has good weapons to play with) should be in good shape for Mod 9 and the foreseeable future. I do have concerns for the SnB builds (including my own), as the Damage output just isn't there...

Im a little new to paladin class. have gone TWF human khopesh build with rogue evasion, just was hoping you could shed a little light on what sort of khopeshs are excellent, and what other gear is sort after. Please bear in mind my toon is only lvl 11. thanks for the info!!! :)

blitzschlag
04-11-2011, 04:00 AM
Im a little new to paladin class. have gone TWF human khopesh build with rogue evasion, just was hoping you could shed a little light on what sort of khopeshs are excellent, and what other gear is sort after. Please bear in mind my toon is only lvl 11. thanks for the info!!! :)

please do actually read the threads you necro. the thread is nearly 3 years old and the information flawed at best.
i never get the point why ppl just hijack other threads instead of doing a own with one or more clear verbalized questions...

elgaeb
04-12-2011, 02:51 AM
please do actually read the threads you necro. the thread is nearly 3 years old and the information flawed at best.
i never get the point why ppl just hijack other threads instead of doing a own with one or more clear verbalized questions...


Wow! Thanks for your helpful and constructive feedback.

Lawndart
04-12-2012, 11:40 AM
necro nvrmd